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Digital Medium Format pricing

dhazeghi

New member
Some years back, I got curious about digital medium format (I was mainly shooting a Mamiya M645 w/film at the time). The lowest price for an entry-level DMF body and sensor was around $10k (IIRC, a Mamiya ZD). It seemed a bit steep, considering what other digital SLRs and my M645 cost, but I figured that over time, prices would gradually become more reasonable.

Fast forward to today and I'm ready to sell my medium format film gear. Had a look around at DMF kits, and it seems that prices are exactly where they were 4 years ago - nothing available (new) for under $10k.

So I'm wondering what the deal is with DMF pricing. Perhaps my thinking is out of whack, but $13-14k for a camera body, a sensor, and a couple of lenses puts the price of entry at about the same level as a fairly decent car. I understand DMF is a smaller market than film MF was, but still, this seems awfully steep, all things considered.

But perhaps there is a good explanation?

Thanks,

DH
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Has 35mm camera pricing changed that much in 4 years? What about APS-C?

Is the technology also changing?

My Pentax 645D has a 40MP sensor, 9-point AF, really good ISO at 1600, unlimited bulb exposures, and weatherproof. How about the Mamiya ZD? (BTW, in Japan, the 645D is actually cheaper than the ZD when it was released.)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well, MFD has been marching forward ... at one time the popular 16 meg square format Kodak DCS Pro Back 645 was $12,000. without a camera or lens. Add those, and the base MFD kit would be about $16,000 back then. And those dollars were worth more compared to now. Slow performance, 1.5X lens crop factor, questionable battery life, even more questionable ISO performance topping out at 400.

Flash forward to today, 40 meg Pentax 645D kit @ $10K, much better ISO performance, 1.3X crop factor, weather sealed, fast etc., Hasselblad H4D/31 kit still for less than that Kodak kit by $2.5K, and the Phase/Leaf equivalents.
Keeping in mind that those are today's dollars, not 10 years ago.

Where it gets really pricey is buying the latest, greatest, biggest, baddest kit on the planet. Top dogs always command the big bucks.

Best to buy a generation or two behind ... after the breath taking initial drop in value as the next best thing takes its place, it gets a lot more affordable.

-Marc
 

yaya

Active member
Perhaps my thinking is out of whack, but $13-14k for a camera body, a sensor, and a couple of lenses puts the price of entry at about the same level as a fairly decent car
Or the other way around....$13-14k for an engine, a body and 4 wheels puts the price of entry at about the same level as a decent MF digital kit :poke:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I just left the BMW dealership. Scary on what car I could really own right now compared to my MF kit. Very Scary. Lol

Just gave them 1800 bucks of my gear fund for tires. Yuk
 

Shashin

Well-known member
And fortunately, I don't have to use gas in my 645D--cost would go way up over a recharge. Nor do I have to take it in every 5,000 clicks. And best of all, my 645D takes better pictures.

Maybe Toyota could come out with a 41MP backup camera? But then I would need a bigger tripod and I doubt I could afford that.
 
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yaya

Active member
And fortunately, I don't have to use gas in my 645D--cost would go way up over a recharge. Nor do I have to take it in ever 5,000 clicks. And best of all, my 645D takes better pictures.

Maybe Toyota could come out with a 41MP backup camera?
Your Pentax is also a bit more environment friendly than a car and likely presents a smaller hazard to other "road users"...
 

gazwas

Active member
We've recently had (didn't buy her) a baby girl.

Cost of ownership is scary and makes my MFD look like peanuts!
 

dhazeghi

New member
Has 35mm camera pricing changed that much in 4 years? What about APS-C?

Is the technology also changing?
I don't know exactly how pricing is changing, but the main thing is that the difference in pricing between a decent film SLR back in the late 90s and a comparable digital SLR today seems to be of the order of 50% or so.

With medium format, it seems like the gap is more like 5x. I figured the difference would drop over time as digital became more popular...

My Pentax 645D has a 40MP sensor, 9-point AF, really good ISO at 1600, unlimited bulb exposures, and weatherproof. How about the Mamiya ZD? (BTW, in Japan, the 645D is actually cheaper than the ZD when it was released.)
That's good to hear. I'm not saying there's been no improvement to the gear (still haven't had a chance to use it). I'm just surprised that the price of entry remains what it is. I mean I'm used to paying somewhat more for a larger format, but 3-4 times more?

DH
 

djonesii

Workshop Member
DH ... you don't mention what you like to shoot, so it's hard to say if MFDB will be worth it or not, and what worth it means.

The reality is you can get close to MFDB, maybe even very close with various setups.

In landscape Manouch does exceptional work with a Micro 4/3rds system.
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/4-3rds-cameras/4390-fun-4-3rds-cameras-image-thread-107.html

I compared a D3X do a ZD, and chose the ZD because it was cheaper, and offered better IQ .... then abandoned all hope, and upgraded to a p30+ because of ergonomics, not IQ, and still came out about the same as a new D3x, and for my studio work, that was a good choice. Move forward around a year, and who knows about the D800.

It's all about how many compromises you're willing to make. I have very little doubt that the D800 will not challenge a 60/80 mpix digital back. Sure, it might erode the bottom end of the used market, but that is not the question now is it? MF has never been for the bottom end of the market unless you were coming from 4X5!

So yes, I drive a 10 year old Volvo, and have a P30+, some of us have to make choices. Others have an IQ180 and a Ferrari, should I begrudge someone their pleasures, not at all.

If you are a shooting pro and can justify the ROI on the lease, it's a no brainier, go lease one. If you are a hobbyist who wants the best, go get one.

If you have to make budget choices like me, drive a ten year old car, or don't get a Harley or Bass Boat, but yes, to be at the top of this hobby, it does cost in the 60K range, the middle, the 30K range, and at the bottom, you can start making choices outside of Denmark.

Problem is, economies of scale never come into play on the bleeding edge of technology.

Dave
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
They gave me a great deal and a free alignment too. Problem is they are run flat tires in two different sizes so they are pretty dang expensive. But they are nice wheels
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
They gave me a great deal and a free alignment too. Problem is they are run flat tires in two different sizes so they are pretty dang expensive. But they are nice wheels
Actually a great price.

I am looking at similar cost ... two wheel/tires for a mountain bike...and I wish they were run flats!

Bob
 

FredBGG

Not Available
But perhaps there is a good explanation?

Thanks,

DH
It's mainly to do with the sales structure.

Consumer DSLR cameras are sold just about everywhere and made in high quantities.

MF are made in smaller quantities and with less competition. Manufactures prefer to go the specialized dealership rout. These dealers obviously want to make good money and are good at doing so.

IF you look around carefully you can find very nice mint gear at excellent prices especially now that some people think that 36MP 35mm DSLR cameras can replace MF.

The phase one P+ backs are built like little tanks and pretty much last for ever. Both Mamiya Leaf and Phase One offer service directly to end users and are pleasant to deal with. Going through a dealer has it's benefits if money is not an issue and time is.

Another way to go is a high end 35mm digital and 6x7 film combination. Personally I think 6x7 and 6x8 film offers things that MF digital can't.
That is the way I went for the majority of my work, but I have also added MF digital because I wanted to avoid bothering with renting.
 

yaya

Active member
Actually a great price.

I am looking at similar cost ... two wheel/tires for a mountain bike...and I wish they were run flats!

Bob
:OT: If your rims are tubeless-compatible and you use tubeless tyres then you can run a fairly low pressure with some Slime in them and you can pretty much treat them as runflats...and they'll cost a bit less than 1,800 bucks :OT:
 
J

jamie123

Guest
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the cost of medium format film cameras has gone down much either in the past 5-10 years even though no one's buying them new anymore and there's no technological improvement. A new Hasselblad A12 film back is still over $1k at B&H even though you can get them used for around $150. Also, a basic Hasselblad H2F film kit (body, 80mm lens and film back) costs $9k right now at B&H. A H4D-31 kit costs $14k so arguably your're getting the digital back for $5k which is cheaper than a ZD back was a few years ago (if I remember correctly).
 

Anders_HK

Member
I just left the BMW dealership. Scary on what car I could really own right now compared to my MF kit. Very Scary. Lol

Lol, BMW is like Leaf, dependable, built very well and smart design, not prime for luxury but to get the job done with ease and very high quality, durable if given proper care and service. Safe.

Dont change so often Guy! Still have my 5er as original owner since 1999... pampered of course... lived most its life in garage and warm storage due to that I am expat, and in condition as a 3-4 years old car. What difference to my Leaf as amateur? My Leaf spends most its life in a sealed bag... but each time I take either of them out... Dang. Awesome because sheer joy to use as TOOL and to get the job done. The Leaf through the Rollei and its viewfinder... the 5er on its Alpina well handling sports wheels and M suspension, snug leather sport seats... Been thinking about supercharing her, not sure I can do that with my Leaf. Yair?????

Simply the right tools for d'job :D

Best regards,
Anders
 

FredBGG

Not Available
:OT: If your rims are tubeless-compatible and you use tubeless tyres then you can run a fairly low pressure with some Slime in them and you can pretty much treat them as runflats...and they'll cost a bit less than 1,800 bucks :OT:
I'm 230 lbs over 6'4" and downhill mountain bike rocky riverbeds. No flats in months with the right slime in the tyres.

tubeless slime - YouTube
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the cost of medium format film cameras has gone down much either in the past 5-10 years even though no one's buying them new anymore and there's no technological improvement. A new Hasselblad A12 film back is still over $1k at B&H even though you can get them used for around $150. Also, a basic Hasselblad H2F film kit (body, 80mm lens and film back) costs $9k right now at B&H. A H4D-31 kit costs $14k so arguably your're getting the digital back for $5k which is cheaper than a ZD back was a few years ago (if I remember correctly).
The production of that film back is still the same as it was before digital, and it's pointless for Hasselblad to sell it without making a profit. The MF camera market can easily be divided into two main groups:

- Cameras that are easy and/or popular to equip with a digital backs hold their prices well, even second hand.

- Cameras that because of technical limitation and/or format aren't attractive for today's digital back have fallen like stones. Good news for those of us who want to shoot film MF.

The exceptions are cameras like the Mamiya 7 and Fuji/Voigtlander 667 that seem to sell as if digital didn't exist, at least from a price point of view. Texas Leicas and panorama formats also keep their prices remarkably well.
 
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