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Thread: Multi-part Leica S2 review

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    Multi-part Leica S2 review

    I just posted the first part of my review of the Leica S2 on my blog - Everything Photo. This first part is on the impressive ergonomics of the camera. I'll post more as I get more familiar with the camera.
    Last edited by aboudd; 5th August 2012 at 15:54.
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    That explains you selling your 645D. Looking forward to seeing more. And I agree, the Pentax could use a vertical grip.

    BTW, one thought on the comparison for the Leica and Pentax 120mm macro, I think the Pentax is an f/4 because it goes up to 1X reproduction where the Leica is 0.5X. (Naturally, the prices are not a one stop difference either.)

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Is there any evidence that they are the same sensor? Both may be from (ex-)Kodak, but the dimensions are different. I can imagine that they use the same sensor tech, but even there, is there any actual evidence?

    Does the S2 sensor have microlens, similar to the M9?

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Kodak removed the specs of the sensor when the S2 was released so customers could not get the information, but supposedly the sensors in the two cameras are from the same generation and share the same technology. It is definitely a Kodak sensor--KAF 37500.

    http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Image_...hotography.htm

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Kodak removed the specs of the sensor when the S2 was released so customers could not get the information,
    That sounds like a bit of a logical leap. What is the evidence of that?

    Even then, sharing a sensor technology does not mean that the cameras are "twins". Phase One, Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar have all been using pretty much the same sensors as a group, either from Kodak or Dalsa almost since day one. The sensor will determine certain characteristics, but the heavy lifting in terms of image quality is more from the company's proprietary signal processing algorithms, their lenses and how they decide they want their "house look" to be. It's really no different than the film days...you can put a roll of Kodachrome in your Canon and your Nikon and take a picture and they will not be the same. It is more of a difference now than then, but it is still pretty much the same issue.
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    That sounds like a bit of a logical leap. What is the evidence of that?

    Even then, sharing a sensor technology does not mean that the cameras are "twins". Phase One, Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar have all been using pretty much the same sensors as a group, either from Kodak or Dalsa almost since day one. The sensor will determine certain characteristics, but the heavy lifting in terms of image quality is more from the company's proprietary signal processing algorithms, their lenses and how they decide they want their "house look" to be. It's really no different than the film days...you can put a roll of Kodachrome in your Canon and your Nikon and take a picture and they will not be the same. It is more of a difference now than then, but it is still pretty much the same issue.
    Do a search for the specs for the KAF-37500, you will not find them. However, the KAF-40000 data sheet seems easily available.

    Naturally, I am not sure of your point. On one hand, you are suggesting they are different, and, on the other, you are saying they are the same with different processing. And perhaps they are different. Pentax has a 100-1600 ISO range where the S2 is 80-1250 and the Pentax has unlimited bulb where the S2 is limited to 32s. But then that could be the processing. Perhaps Pentax processing is just better with the same sensor technology.

    However, I don't think I said the cameras were twins. The question was simply about the sensor technology. They seem to be cut from the same cloth.

    BTW, they had better processing control in the film days--you would not be able to tell which Kodakchrome was shot in a Nikon or Canon. Only Kodak or Kodak approved labs could process Kodachrome. And when running an E-6 line, I could be consistent in my film processing as well. Perhaps a better analogy would be comparing Kodachrome with Ektachrome or Fujichrome or Agfachrome.
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    I only meant that just because you can't find information on it does not mean they are hiding it from the customers. That to me seems like a rather large deductive leap...there could be any number of reasons why you cannot find a data sheet for that particular sensor.

    Anyway, I am sorry if my point was not clear. Here it is more clearly: Even if two cameras share a sensor, it does not make sense to expect them to output the same, or even similar results.
    I am not saying you said this, the quotation marks around the word twins were not meant to be attributive.

    As for Nikon and Canon, perhaps you are right. But I clearly could tell the difference between Leica and Canon, or at least the Canon F1 with a 50/1.2L and a Leica MP with a 50/2 summicron. I am sure you would be able to tell too...it was not subtle. But you are right that Kodachrome vs. Fujichrome etc would likely be a better comparison -- the companies have their own house flavor, and that affects the color palette, treatment of noise etc.

    On a side note, Pentax may well have better signal processing, but I suspect it has more to do with the corporate culture and what is considered "acceptable" with regards to file quality. I would sure be impressed if the files were better than those from the S2. My own suspicion is that Leica is overly conservative in what they let customers have. For example, ISO 1250 in the S2 is really not bad at all, at least from my perspective. I am quite sure it could do a totally acceptable ISO 1600, at least for me. Furthermore, the long exposure time was upped to 120s a year or two ago...I have exposed it that long and it still has incredibly low noise and no signs of battery drain. I wish they would give me a longer exposure, but someone probably decided it might no longer be perfect, and therefore best not to allow it.
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Whether true or not, whether present in both the pentax and leica, I have been told the following. Both use micro-lenses to "focus" or direct the photons into the wells of the sensor. However, one difference, I was told, was that most such lens arrays have equally spaced and equally "strong" lenses over each photo site. Leica, on the other hand, varies the lens "strength" or correction based on the distance away from the center, so that as the angle of the incident photons increases, so does the power or refractive ability of the lens over that particular photo site (well). This is suppose to better "focus" the photons improving sensitivity and perhaps decreasing noise. I am not a physicist,
    and certainly do not have a degree in optics. The concept makes sense,
    whether it makes a difference in the "real world" is another story.

    What I can say, is that the Leica S2 with Leica lenses produces a remarkable image, even in low light, that appears to have more contrast, more micro-contrast and better "sharpness" than I was able to attain with a HD-50 or a IQ140 back on their respective cameras. I was not able to compare directly to the pentax so I won't comment on that camera.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    The lack of information does not prove anything, but it is strange that that data sheet could not be found. Perhaps Leica want exclusivity to the sensor and that is one reason for the price--I don't think it beyond reason that Leica would want to have a unique format for the S2.

    Certainly you can say all these sensors shared the same pedigree. That does not mean the output will not be the same, but they are all starting with the same engine, the transmission will vary. And the signal processing can effect the look of an image considerably.

    The difference in performance can be simply company policy. Leica is a conservative company. Personally, I am not a great fan of engineers telling me what I can and cannot do with my cameras. But cameras need limits.

    Craig, the difference could simply be down to the optics and processing than anything special with the sensor. The S2 lenses don't seem to have a particularly short image-side distance where you would need to do much with the micro lensing.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    I could be wrong, and I am making some assumptions - and I do not have un-fettered access to every CCD schematic made by Kodak/Dalsa, I have to search it out (and frankly do not expend a lot of energy in doing so, as my clients are more often interested in the results than the specifications). So no proof, but my supposition is based on my experience with the KAF-37500, KAF-40000, and KAF-50100 sensors and my feeling that the results from the 37MP Sensor from the Leica are closer in character to the 50MP KAF50100 than the KAF-40000. Results from the KAF-40000 are more similar to the KAF-31600 (found in P30+/H3D-31/eSprit 65).

    Further, the below Kodak PR states the 37500 and 50100 originate from the same CCD platform, but does not mention the 40000. Also, the data sheet from the KAF-50100 stipulates there are no microlenses, which are certainly present on the KAF-40000. I could not locate a data sheet for the KA-37500.


    Kodak PR on KAF-37500 & KAF-50100

    KAF-31600 Datasheet

    KAF-40000

    KAF-50100 Datasheet



    Steve Hendrix
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 15th March 2012 at 17:52.
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Thanks for the links Steve. From Kodak about the 37500 and 50100:

    Both the KAI-50100 and the KAF-37500 Image Sensors are based on the new KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, the company's fourth generation of technology for professional photography.
    From the KAF-40000 data sheet:

    The KODAK KAF-40000 Image Sensor is a high performance, 40-megapixel CCD. Based on the KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, the sensor features ultra-high resolution, broad dynamic range, and a four-output architecture.
    The KAF-31600 sensor does not mention "KODAK TRUESENSE" and has 6.8um pixels:

    The KAF-31600 is a dual output, high performance color array CCD (charge coupled device) image sensor with 6496(H) x 4872(V) 6.8μm square pixels, designed for digital still camera applications.
    I wonder what you mean by the results of the KAF-40000 and KAF-31600 being similar. I doubt I could identify a sensor simply by a file.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    And I am I the only person to think it odd that I can get a data sheet for the 31600, 40000, and 50100, but not the 37500?

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I could be wrong, and I am making some assumptions - and I do not have un-fettered access to every CCD schematic made by Kodak/Dalsa, I have to search it out (and frankly do not expend a lot of energy in doing so, as my clients are more often interested in the results than the specifications). So no proof, but my supposition is based on my experience with the KAF-37500, KAF-40000, and KAF-50100 sensors and my feeling that the results from the 37MP Sensor from the Leica are closer in character to the 50MP KAF50100 than the KAF-40000. Results from the KAF-40000 are more similar to the KAF-31600 (found in P30+/H3D-31/eSprit 65).

    Further, the below Kodak PR states the 37500 and 50100 originate from the same CCD platform, but does not mention the 40000. Also, the data sheet from the KAF-50100 stipulates there are no microlenses, which are certainly present on the KAF-40000. I could not locate a data sheet for the KA-37500.


    Kodak PR on KAF-40000 & KAF-50100

    KAF-31600 Datasheet

    KAF-40000

    KAF-50100 Datasheet



    Steve Hendrix
    Steve, that seems to correspond to Leica's initial indication that the sensor in the S2 coupled with the ground-up lens designs and proprietary Maestro processor would be competing with a 50 meg sensor. Before I committed to the Leica, I did test the S2 extensively against my H4D/40, and the S2 decidedly had the edge ... but it was probably splitting hairs. I just like the S lenses, so the body had be come with them

    The DPReview on the S2 states that the image sensor was developed especially for Leica by Kodak.

    -Marc

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Thanks for the links Steve. From Kodak about the 37500 and 50100:



    From the KAF-40000 data sheet:



    The KAF-31600 sensor does not mention "KODAK TRUESENSE" and has 6.8um pixels:



    I wonder what you mean by the results of the KAF-40000 and KAF-31600 being similar. I doubt I could identify a sensor simply by a file.

    Sometimes the differences are rather extreme, based on the hardware. If you captured images at 800 ISO and full resolution from the 31MP, 40MP, 50MP, 60MP, 80MP sensors (Dalsa and Kodak), regardless of what digital back they came from, I'm pretty sure I could at least tell you which did not come from a digital back that contained the KAF-31600/KAF-40000 sensor as opposed to the others.


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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    And I am I the only person to think it odd that I can get a data sheet for the 31600, 40000, and 50100, but not the 37500?
    Could it be that when Leica said the sensor was developed specifically for them by Kodak, it was?

    -Marc

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Sometimes the differences are rather extreme, based on the hardware. If you captured images at 800 ISO and full resolution from the 31MP, 40MP, 50MP, 60MP, 80MP sensors (Dalsa and Kodak), regardless of what digital back they came from, I'm pretty sure I could at least tell you which did not come from a digital back that contained the KAF-31600/KAF-40000 sensor as opposed to the others.


    Steve Hendrix
    But the KAF-31600 and KAF-40000 sensors are not related. The 40000 is related to the 37500/50100.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I could be wrong, and I am making some assumptions - and I do not have un-fettered access to every CCD schematic made by Kodak/Dalsa, I have to search it out (and frankly do not expend a lot of energy in doing so, as my clients are more often interested in the results than the specifications). So no proof, but my supposition is based on my experience with the KAF-37500, KAF-40000, and KAF-50100 sensors and my feeling that the results from the 37MP Sensor from the Leica are closer in character to the 50MP KAF50100 than the KAF-40000. Results from the KAF-40000 are more similar to the KAF-31600 (found in P30+/H3D-31/eSprit 65).

    Further, the below Kodak PR states the 37500 and 50100 originate from the same CCD platform, but does not mention the 40000. Also, the data sheet from the KAF-50100 stipulates there are no microlenses, which are certainly present on the KAF-40000. I could not locate a data sheet for the KA-37500.


    Kodak PR on KAF-37500 & KAF-50100

    KAF-31600 Datasheet

    KAF-40000

    KAF-50100 Datasheet



    Steve Hendrix

    I spotted an error on the PR link (corrected), I meant to say KAF-37500 and KAF-50100 in the title of the link. The PR refers to both sensors as part of the same platform. That doesn't mean they're the exact same architecture, but it is likely that the core architecture is very similar. And that is quite different from the KAF-40000.


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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I spotted an error on the PR link (corrected), I meant to say KAF-37500 and KAF-50100 in the title of the link. The PR refers to both sensors as part of the same platform. That doesn't mean they're the exact same architecture, but it is likely that the core architecture is very similar. And that is quite different from the KAF-40000.


    Steve Hendrix
    So when Kodak states that the 37500 and 50100 is based on the KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, that means the 40000, which kodak states is based on the KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, is different? And when you compare the spec sheets for the 50100 and the 40000, the spec are very similar, but the 40000 is actually related to the 31600 which has very different specs and is not based on the KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform. Interesting.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    So when Kodak states that the 37500 and 50100 is based on the KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, that means the 40000, which kodak states is based on the KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, is different? And when you compare the spec sheets for the 50100 and the 40000, the spec are very similar, but the 40000 is actually related to the 31600 which has very different specs and is not based on the KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform. Interesting.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    LOL

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    LOL
    Is something funny? I have my moments, but.....?


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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    The S2 sensor, 37500, uses micro lenses.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The S2 sensor, 37500, uses micro lenses.

    Glad I could amuse you!

    That doesn't necessarily prove it is the same sensor as the KAF-40000. And if it does have micro-lenses, their effect seems not quite as strong as the KAF-40000, at least in my impression.

    Marc - would you say as the owner of an H4D/40 and an S2 that the ISO performance of the S2 equals the H4D/40? Even so, if it is not, then that also does not rule out the two being from the same wafer, perhaps in that case the chassis of the S2 does not allow an equivalent operating temperature.


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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    I'm not really sure Steve. In my experience, one of the major strengths of the H4D/40 in actual use was high ISO performance ... being 1 to 2 stops better than the 31meg H backs. What elements of the imaging chain contribute to that I have no idea. However, as we know, firmware has an influence on all that, as noted when the 31 meg backs received a firmware upgrade and went from a top ISO of 800 to 1600 some time ago, and at that time, the ISO 800 performance was visibly improved.

    Leica chose to provide ISO increments of 80 (pull), 160 (base), 320, 640, and 1250 ... the H4D/40 is 100 (base), 200, 400, 800, 1600. The S2 does a very clean 640, and I do not use 1250 very often probably because the S lenses are generally slightly faster maximum apertures (or not slightly in the case of the 120 macros (f/2.5 verses f/4). Others are more experienced at using the S2 at 1250 than I am ... but I'd say the two cameras are comparable with the edge given to the H4D/40 at 1600.

    What I did not test was how conservative or aggressive the actual ISO designations were between the two cameras. It has been noted in past that Leica's ISO 640 on the M digital cameras were more like 800 on other cameras in actual use. I have no idea if that is true or even possible, but I shoot 35mm DSLRs at 800 a lot, and 640 on the M9 a lot ... and the side-by-side experience seems very comparable.

    -Marc

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Is it important for anything if they share the same sensor or not?

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Is it important for anything if they share the same sensor or not?
    No. Couldn't care less. Didn't care if Phase and Hasselblad shared base sensors either. What matters is what comes out of the printer ... which is a result of a long imaging chain that only starts at the sensor.

    To get back on the more general topic of the S2 review ... I'd say the S2 is the most improved initial camera I've ever encountered. The progress Leica has made with firmware updates and inclusion of improved LR profile and lens corrections has transformed the operation and accuracy of the S2 a great deal.

    The AF has been improved, user selected operational choices has improved, imaging chain inclusions have improved. The genius of the 5 button user selected operational functions has been better exploited ... making it one of the simplest, fastest cameras to operate I've ever used ... including most 35mm DSLRs. Because of that, my 35mm DSLR has been collecting dust, and the big gun Hasselblad H4D/60 spends most of its time in the studio ... and as soon as I get my mitts on the CS lenses, the H will be a studio brick exclusively.

    IF Leica chooses to offer a S3 with more meg etc., my current S2 will not be in danger, the H4D/60 will! I find the current meg count just right for more versatile use including a lot of hand-held 35mm DSLR like applications which would be somewhat compromised by jacking up the meg count and forcing more stringent technique to realize the benefit.

    -Marc

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Is it important for anything if they share the same sensor or not?
    They don't share the same sensor...the question is whether they share the same sensor performance.

    And yes, it certainly IS important - to photographers who need to shoot at the boundaries of sensor performance, like high ISO and long exposures!
    Before I'd plonk my cash down for an S2 or a 645D, I'd want to know exactly how they perform and compare in these circumstances.

    Ray

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I spotted an error on the PR link (corrected), I meant to say KAF-37500 and KAF-50100 in the title of the link. The PR refers to both sensors as part of the same platform. That doesn't mean they're the exact same architecture, but it is likely that the core architecture is very similar. And that is quite different from the KAF-40000.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve, copying & pasting my reply to you on this very same point on LuLa:


    I've seen that Kodak press release before, but it doesn't back your assertion that the KAF-37500 + KAF-50100 architecture is somehow different from that of the KAF-40000.

    First of all, it does say that "The [KAF-37500] sensor also includes specific design features that optimize its use in the S2 camera, such as the use of microlenses" - thus making it more like the KAF-40000 than the KAF-50100, as I said above. This is one of the few concrete facts we have about the S2 sensor!

    Secondly, the only comparison it draws between the KAF-37500 and KAF-50000 is "Both the KAI-50100 and the KAF-37500 Image Sensors are based on the new KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, the company's fourth generation of technology for professional photography. This new platform increases both the resolution and camera performance available for photographers by reducing pixel size and "click-to- capture" time for improved camera response, improving frame rate, lowering power consumption, and improving color fidelity while retaining key performance parameters available from the previous generation of technology.
    - But all of that is also true of the KAF-40000.

    The press release just doesn't mention the KAF-40000 at all, but that's hardly surprising since none of the new backs/cameras referred to in the release use that sensor.
    Absence of a mention doesn't imply a difference.


    Ray

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    And I am I the only person to think it odd that I can get a data sheet for the 31600, 40000, and 50100, but not the 37500?
    You're not the only one, indeed!

    I don't really buy into the Leica-Kodak conspiracy of silence theory. I am inclined to think that it is basically because Kodak (reportedly) tailored the microlenses design to the S2 optics (the manner in which they vary off-axis). So the sensor might perform in a non-optimal way for other imaging applications, so Kodak decided it would be better not offer it on the open market, so why make the data sheet public?

    This would excuse Kodak...but not Leica. They have nothing to lose (and many things to gain) by making their S2 sensor specs available to interested parties. Mystery in this area creates doubt rather than awe. Transparency is always the best policy.

    Ray

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    They don't share the same sensor...the question is whether they share the same sensor performance.

    And yes, it certainly IS important - to photographers who need to shoot at the boundaries of sensor performance, like high ISO and long exposures!
    Before I'd plonk my cash down for an S2 or a 645D, I'd want to know exactly how they perform and compare in these circumstances.

    Ray
    Exactly. Which is why I don't spend much time on what is happening in the hands of the engineer as opposed to what is happening in the hands of the photographer. And why the details of the sensor technology while generally known, don't fly out of my brain with the same certainty that real world performance feedback does.

    Despite the 37500/40000/50100 murmerings - which I contributed to - the only reason I doubted that the KAF-37500 and KAF-40000 were cut from the same cloth is that the S2 high ISO seemed more reflective of an optimized KAF-50100 than a less optimized KAF-40000. The look I've seen from the high ISO files of the 645D and H4D/40 (and the P30+ also looks similar) look different than the S2 high ISO results. Based on my impression of that, my impression was the S2 and 645D were utilizing different sensors, or at least different in some way at the hardware level. I could be wrong.

    For the most part, I feel it is much more important what the actual results are. And knowing what sensor a product uses can be a start to understanding that, but still paints a very incomplete picture, imo. No client of mine has ever bought a product from me because I told them it uses X sensor. They have bought products from me because I tell them exactly what to expect from the use of the product that sensor is utilized in.


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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    They don't share the same sensor...the question is whether they share the same sensor performance.

    And yes, it certainly IS important - to photographers who need to shoot at the boundaries of sensor performance, like high ISO and long exposures!
    Before I'd plonk my cash down for an S2 or a 645D, I'd want to know exactly how they perform and compare in these circumstances.

    Ray
    I was also interested how the S2 sensor performs before getting it but I guess a datasheet wont give the answer.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I think watching paint dry would be more interesting than this discussion. Really, who cares about the differences or lack thereof, just buy the camera that you think takes the best photographs. If the 645D is close in technology to the S2 or the other way around, great! The art of photography is sometimes lost to MTF charts and hyper MP's. Before digital, quality was based on lenses, period. Let's start there.

    Agree to a point. While it would be helpful to know if the same sensor is used in the S2 and 645D (or H4D/40, etc), that only tells a very partial part of the story. Kind of like trust and verify. Ok, uses this sensor, results should be similar to....

    But verify with real world testing in the hands of a photographer. There can be differences in the final product and many instances of this.


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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Agree to a point. While it would be helpful to know if the same sensor is used in the S2 and 645D (or H4D/40, etc), that only tells a very partial part of the story. Kind of like trust and verify. Ok, uses this sensor, results should be similar to....

    But verify with real world testing in the hands of a photographer. There can be differences in the final product and many instances of this.


    Steve Hendrix
    Agreed, but when starting to read this, I thought it would be a review, and it morphed into something else all together. It is obviously useful to have an understanding of how a sensor utilizes technology and it's differences with certain cameras, but obsessing too much on this aspect and you've missed some great photographs regardless.

    Perhaps a new thread about the similar attributes of sensor technology is more useful, but check your ego's at the door!

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I think watching paint dry would be more interesting than this discussion. Really, who cares about the differences or lack thereof, just buy the camera that you think takes the best photographs. If the 645D is close in technology to the S2 or the other way around, great! The art of photography is sometimes lost to sensor specs and hyper MP's. Before digital, quality was based on lenses, period. Let's start there.

    This thread says "review", not critique.
    It is called a conversation. Someone brings up a topic and, if you are interested, you talk about it. This discussion of the sensor was brought up in the review. BTW, no one is forcing you to join. I am not sure which is more egotistical, discussing this topic or showing your impatience with the people who are interested in it. There is also nothing stopping you from adding to this tread by talking about the review--something I noticed you have not done.

    I do find accurate information interesting. I find when someone is painting something that obviously is not true, like in the film era we only cared about the lenses, that that information should be examined. I find Steve's claims very odd--for example, how can you tell if a sensor has microlenses from the image itself? But Steve has image files and perhaps he can post them to support his position. Since many folks here are interested in image quality, then the difference which Steve can actually observe in the final image would be of interest.

    Now, a lot of myth are created about imaging and I think we should be careful not to create them. This seem to me to be another myth. However, Steve might be able to show the difference and that might change the way we evaluate a camera. Kind of like wanting the best lenses for our cameras, even though with film we stressed about the film itself and all the minutia of exposing and processing it.
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Agreed, but when starting to read this, I thought it would be a review...
    Since you missed the link to the review in the first post, here it is again:

    Everything Foto

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Thanks, I'm looking forward to posting some images soon. The second installment is now posted.
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Aboudd:

    Aside from Lloyd Chambers you are the only person I know of who has had use of an S2 and the 645D; a comparison of the files from each camera would be of great interest.

    Thanks and good luck with the S2,

    Tom
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I was also interested how the S2 sensor performs before getting it but I guess a datasheet wont give the answer.
    It won't provide the whole answer but it will provide some pretty key components of the answer. There are some things (fewer than most people think) that the camera/back manufacturer can tweak, but even then the datasheet gives us upper or lower limits of what's possible, if you know how to interpret it.

    It's just information, a particularly rigorous source of detailed information.

    I can never understand people who say "who needs this information?", and why I often have to end up justifying the value of such information.

    Ray
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    Aboudd:

    Aside from Lloyd Chambers you are the only person I know of who has had use of an S2 and the 645D; a comparison of the files from each camera would be of great interest.

    Thanks and good luck with the S2,

    Tom
    Tom,

    Its certainly understandable that Aboud is quite busy (as many of us are), but I suggested to him earlier today that when a convienient time frame opens up, that we could possibly do a simultanious comparison of both cameras via a well controlled set-up, where initially each uses their respective 120mm macro lenses. I believe that the Pentax 120 f4 macro is one of the most consistant and highest performing lenses for the Pentax 645D and would make an ideal candidate for testing against the Leica 120 macro, which is also superb abeit somewhat faster in lens speed. It's a camera comparison (image wise) that I think many are curious about (for obvious reasons due to the apparent similarity of their respective Kodak sensors).

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 16th March 2012 at 11:32.
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Tom I now have only the S2, - I sold the Pentax to pay for a very tiny chunk of it. In any case Dave wants a throw down on the 120s. If I can find the time before I go on vacation in a few weeks I may take him up on it. I have a small studio where we could put the cameras side by side and shoot some macros or something. I'm not sure of this, but the Pentax lens may have the advantage of 1:1 as opposed to the 1:2 of the Summarit. We will be sure to try to match the perspectives exactly.

    Yo! tough guy - yeah, I'm tawkin' to youse Davie. You ready for da' big showdown?
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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Can we place some bets. Daddy needs a new lens. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Just to clarify, the KAF-37500 used in the S2 does use offset microlenses. The optical pattern for the microlenses was designed by the Leica optics department and supplied to Kodak ISS for manufacture. The sensor also uses a single piece cover glass/IR filter, rather than the more customary two separate pieces of glass. The S lenses were designed with these specific criteria in mind and with the cover glass as part of the optical path, in order to be optimized for performance on the S2.

    So, yes, the KAF-37500 is different than other Truesense 6m sensors.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by aboudd View Post
    Tom I now have only the S2, - I sold the Pentax to pay for a very tiny chunk of it. In any case Dave wants a throw down on the 120s. If I can find the time before I go on vacation in a few weeks I may take him up on it. I have a small studio where we could put the cameras side by side and shoot some macros or something. I'm not sure of this, but the Pentax lens may have the advantage of 1:1 as opposed to the 1:2 of the Summarit. We will be sure to try to match the perspectives exactly.

    Yo! tough guy - yeah, I'm tawkin' to youse Davie. You ready for da' big showdown?
    "Yeah "Big Guy", Bring it on!! I see you're ichin to bring your Big Gun to the Table (S2)....well dust it off and see you at "High Noon" (they would have to pick the worse light of the day), on a day of your choosing.... (ummm, schedules permitting ) . ....and what's all this about shaking in your boots regarding my macro's close range advantage? Already making excuses for your steed? (well isn't the S2 older than the 645D?...LOL). I say let em both rip at 1:2 range as well as mid or long distance. We'll then see who's the tougher guy. Just don't expect to do a subsequent shootout with our respective 35's or 70's (lenses)....I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. I do know when to stand my ground and when to run

    When all is said and done, and if we're both standing, we'll break out a few of our chosen beverages (eggcreams of course).

    As an aside, if it's more convienient to do this after your vacation, no problem at all...that will give me some time to hit the iron and get myself into shape for the big showdown. It's gonna be a show , so watch your back! . See ya there partner..... and oh, you HD, IQ and Aptus guy's, don't even think about it!

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 17th March 2012 at 06:54.

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Can we place some bets. Daddy needs a new lens. LOL
    I thought the 28 WAS your new lens. You mean ANOTHER one?

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    Re: Multi-part Leica S2 review

    Hell there is always a lens that needs a home
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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