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Thread: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

  1. #1
    gugamillet
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    Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Hi there, this is my first post.
    I am moving for MF digital and chose PhaseOne because it looks to be the most practical system. I can use my Hasselblad and Pentacon 6 lenses as well as the new Schneider lenses. I want a 110mm lens with beautiful 3D looks.

    I wander if someone has compared the Schneider 110mm/f2.8 and the Zeiss [hasselblad or rollei] 110mm/f2.

    Thank you all.

  2. #2
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    I have owned and shot both. At the end of the day, the Phase 110 LS won the day by a wide margin. First it was easier to use being fully AF and auto-everything on the Phase DF body. Second the LS allowed flash synch versatility.

    Rear bokeh is outstanding on both, but I prefer the front bokeh of the Phase 110 LS. Then the total "look" of the 110 LS, just seems more rounded overall to my eyes. The one thing the Hassy V has going for it is an extra stop for even less DoF -- but even at f2.8, the DoF is already razor thin on the 110 focals...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Don't expect to use very shallow depth of field lenses with the Phase One Bodies and achieve accurate focus. The viewfinder does not have enough magnification and is pentaprism only.

    With static subjects I get close to 100% accuracy with a Phase One back on the Fuji GX680 and the waist level finder.

    Even with the subject in the center of the frame I cannot get accurate focus with the Phase One when shooting wide open.

    Regarding the two lenses the Hasselblad is far nicer in my opinion. It produced better depth and smoother bokeh.

    The Schneider on the other hand is sharper wide open, but the bokeh is nothing special.
    I would say it's a very perfect lens, but not very interesting. It's more about Hyper resolution.

    The mamiya 150mm 2.8D is the nicest lens on the whole system. No design constraints had to be made to fit the fast limited by size leaf shutter.

  4. #4
    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Don't expect to use very shallow depth of field lenses with the Phase One Bodies and achieve accurate focus. The viewfinder does not have enough magnification and is pentaprism only.

    Even with the subject in the center of the frame I cannot get accurate focus with the Phase One when shooting wide open.
    That's odd. I get sharp focus using wide open lenses (sample image below: 110/2.8 on a thin extension tube), and that's just using "old tech" - the focus confirmation feature of my 645AFD on manual focus M645 lenses. Could your Phase One body need calibration perhaps?

    I agree that the viewfinder in itself is borderline sufficient to judge focus by eye, but the focus confirmation system solves that problem, for me anyway.

    To the OP: both the lenses you mention cost $$$$. If you'd rather spend low $$$ (or in my case, it was only $$) to get your "110mm lens with beautiful 3D looks", try the M645 110/2.8 N (full-res sample image below; no sharpening or denoising). Yes, it's a manual focus lens, but so is the Zeiss 110/2. These are all variants of the double-Gauss/Planar design. I for one like how the 110/2.8 N renders oof, the transitions from in-focus to oof, and its sharpness in the plane of focus. If you end up not liking it, you can sell it for the same little amount that you paid, so really there's nothing to lose in trying it.

    Ray


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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    BTW you have to right-click and select "View Image" to see it in full-res.

    Ray

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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Quote Originally Posted by gugamillet View Post
    I can use my Hasselblad and Pentacon 6 lenses as well as the new Schneider lenses. I want a 110mm lens with beautiful 3D looks.
    Thank you all.
    Its not lens that makes things 3D. Its shadow and light. Stating obvious, i know, but it really gets me every time people do this kind of talk.

    All lens might do is control how out of focus area rendered and how fast edge-fall off happens visually(uncontrolled/controlled aberrations).

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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    That's odd. I get sharp focus using wide open lenses (sample image below: 110/2.8 on a thin extension tube), and that's just using "old tech" - the focus confirmation feature of my 645AFD on manual focus M645 lenses. Could your Phase One body need calibration perhaps?

    I agree that the viewfinder in itself is borderline sufficient to judge focus by eye, but the focus confirmation system solves that problem, for me anyway.

    To the OP: both the lenses you mention cost $$$$. If you'd rather spend low $$$ (or in my case, it was only $$) to get your "110mm lens with beautiful 3D looks", try the M645 110/2.8 N (full-res sample image below; no sharpening or denoising). Yes, it's a manual focus lens, but so is the Zeiss 110/2. These are all variants of the double-Gauss/Planar design. I for one like how the 110/2.8 N renders oof, the transitions from in-focus to oof, and its sharpness in the plane of focus. If you end up not liking it, you can sell it for the same little amount that you paid, so really there's nothing to lose in trying it.

    Ray

    That looks a bit more stopped down for a 110mm on an extension tube. The teddy, girl's eyes and eyebrows in focus. That's a fair amount of depth of field
    for a 110.

    This was Shot with a Fuji 115mm at f3.2 on the Fuji GX680 with the p25+ on the back. Slight crop. Shallower depth of field than your example, despite using a bit of tilt to keep tip of nose
    in Focus as well as eyelashes.


    Here is a crop



    By accurate focus I am talking about getting it right nearly all the time.

    I have no problem doing so with my digital 35mm DSLR cameras or with completely manual focus Fuji G680.

    Also generally getting focus right on a very close up shot like yours is not a problem as the features are very large.


    Hasselblad 110mm f2 on Phase One DF P25+ about a 50% crop

    I would like to see your accuracy on full length shots wide open.
    I have no problem with closeups either in manual or to a lesser extent AF.

    Even Phase One recommends using apertures of f8 when setting AF to fast focus on the DF

    C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
    Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
    decided.
    0: Speed
    (Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)
    Standard focus does some small hunting to refine the focus.
    Normal focus locks focus in one go, but accuracy is not to good.
    Last edited by FredBGG; 28th March 2012 at 21:52.

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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Its not lens that makes things 3D. Its shadow and light. Stating obvious, i know, but it really gets me every time people do this kind of talk.

    All lens might do is control how out of focus area rendered and how fast edge-fall off happens visually(uncontrolled/controlled aberrations).
    He is referring to the illusion of more depth that some lenses produce, such as larger format lenses.

    One thing that creates this illusion is lenses that have a certain buzz in the immediate falloff, but then have very very smooth distant bokeh.

    Many things contribute to a more 3D look.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    That looks a bit more stopped down for a 110mm on an extension tube. The teddy, girl's eyes and eyebrows in focus. That's a fair amount of depth of field
    for a 110.

    This was Shot with a Fuji 115mm at f3.2 on the Fuji GX680 with the p25+ on the back. Slight crop. Shallower depth of field than your example, despite using a bit of tilt to keep tip of nose
    in Focus as well as eyelashes.
    He's angled down, you are straight on -- makes a big difference in perceived DoF -- and in any case to my eyes, the shot of the girl looks like it has shallower net DoF than your shot of the man regardless. Not trying to argue, both show nice shallow DoF effect, but I do not see the extreme difference as your post seems to suggest.

    FWIW, I never had much difficulty focusing the 100/2 on my AFD body either -- it snapped in and out pretty obviously. However, it is glowy wide open and that can impart the impression of it not being in precise focus, so I can see where some folks might have issues with it. In any case, it is NOT an issue with the 110LS, and that was the OP's original question...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    That looks a bit more stopped down for a 110mm on an extension tube. The teddy, girl's eyes and eyebrows in focus. That's a fair amount of depth of field
    for a 110.

    This was Shot with a Fuji 115mm at f3.2 on the Fuji GX680 with the p25+ on the back. Slight crop. Shallower depth of field than your example, despite using a bit of tilt to keep tip of nose
    in Focus as well as eyelashes.
    And the shots you posted have a fair amount of backlighting that will also add to the softening effect rather than the OP's much darker and less than ideal background.

    I'm with Jack though, the OP's shot shows very similar if not more focus fall off than the images you posted so don't quite get your point of your examples. The difference is more about lighting than lens IMO.

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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    OK suit yourselves...

    In my black and white shot, lips and hair line are out of focus.
    In the shot of the girl the teddy, her eyes, her eyebrows, her hair line and mouth are in focus.

    It seems that here on GetDPI it is a no no to question anything about Phase One gear, yet both the main guys here have sold or selling their DF cameras.....

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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    It seems that here on GetDPI it is a no no to question anything about Phase One gear, yet both the main guys here have sold or selling their DF cameras.....
    And for the few selling there are many, many more not as prominent on this forum still buying.......

    Nobody is disputing the quality of your photographs and the wonderfully shallow DOF but as Jack stated, in your posted images the shooting position is looking down on the subject and I noted the much better quality of light that lends itself to the added apperience of depth in your shots.

    It has nothing to do with any brand loyalties or people's dislike for specific cameras.
    Last edited by gazwas; 29th March 2012 at 12:15.

  13. #13
    gugamillet
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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Thank you all for the replies and the discussion.
    I know that light does almost everything, but the way each lens sees this light makes a difference.

    I ask because I am studying my move to digital medium format. I already photograph with a hasselblad 500CM, Rollei and some old and amazing folding 6x6 cameras, but I wanto to do all of this on digital. Can't afford to try and buy to much since here in Brazil its not easy to find the equipment.

    I love the way a 110mm/f2 deals with light, but on film. I have no idea if a 22Mp or 31Mp digital back deals with the "oldness" of this lens. I was told old lenses are more prone to chromatic aberration.

    Schneider glass is beautiful and the idea of sync speed at 1/1600 is very seductive. Could this lens also give the same look, the same drawing of the zeiss one?

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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    how much focusing on mf is diffrent than 35mm dslr when using shallow dof?

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    OK suit yourselves...

    In my black and white shot, lips and hair line are out of focus.
    In the shot of the girl the teddy, her eyes, her eyebrows, her hair line and mouth are in focus.

    It seems that here on GetDPI it is a no no to question anything about Phase One gear, yet both the main guys here have sold or selling their DF cameras.....
    Oh come, this discussion is not about brand other than the two lenses the OP inquired about and then the fuji option you inserted. The fact that the first image is angled down is precisely why the "closer" teddy is in more focus. But at the same time if you look at the girls ears compared to your guys ears, the girls are more oof, again because the camera is angled down and the PoF is therefore angled away from her ears.

    As for some of us selling DF gear, it's so we can buy more (very expensive) tech lenses. Please go price the 23, 28 or 32 Rodenstock HR lenses an dyou may understand...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    I collect all sorts of stuff over a year or two and once and awhile need to thin the herd down to what I use most.
    The Schneider 110 is on my keepers list.
    -bob
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  17. #17
    gugamillet
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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    Thank you all.
    Any one have more photographs to show made with the schneider 110mm/f2.8?

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    Re: Schneider 110mm f2.8 and Zeiss 110mm f2

    This guy posts quite a few images with the 80mm 2.8 schneider... very similar lens.

    Flickr: .:: Tomz ::.'s Photostream

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