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Thread: Fiction from Phase One.

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    Fiction from Phase One.

    I came across this video from Phase One on youtube.

    Title of the video is:

    Shooting with auto focus | Phase One 645DF camera system

    Shooting with auto focus | Phase One 645DF camera system - YouTube


    Very misleading as it appears to show the DF focus tracking a person moving towards the camera in continuous shutter mode.

    I would love to see those photos in high res.
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    I missed the "fiction" from Phase One part of the video. I was expecting at least some exciting marketing hyperbole, but only saw a boring demonstration of autofocus with the DF body and a LS lens, and nothing out of the ordinary.

    How about autofocus on charging elephants, who then stand on the IQ back....

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Anyone notice how the slide show is accelerated a wee bit too... just for good measure.

    The Fiction is that there is no way that the DF can achieve accurate tracking focus in a situation like this with three focus points on the belly button of the subject.

    But the real bullshit is that in order to achieve this speed of AF you have to set the CF for focus speed to fast and Phase One recommends shooting at at least f8 when using fast focus custom setting.... It's in the manual.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Based on personal experience I don't see the fiction. My personal experience is based on using it last year in Jackson WY to shoot wildlife such as mountain sheep, buffalo, elk and the occasional eagle. None of which stayed in one place for very long posing.
    Don Libby
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Very misleading as it appears to show the DF focus tracking a person moving towards the camera in continuous shutter mode.

    I would love to see those photos in high res.
    Have you got some axe to grind about Phase One?

    I'm not sure of the point your trying to make or the reason to dislike what is at the end of the day a marketing video. To me it seems to be a pretty standard setup that's not really worth getting worked up about.

    Do you work for Hasselblad or something?
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Based on personal experience I don't see the fiction. My personal experience is based on using it last year in Jackson WY to shoot wildlife such as mountain sheep, buffalo, elk and the occasional eagle. None of which stayed in one place for very long posing.
    I would love to see a sequence of shots of wild life heading towards you and shot in continuous at f2.8

    I have tried a few times with a model walking towards camera at a regular pace.
    No luck at all.

    Don't get me wrong... I'd be very happy if it worked!

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Sorry to disappoint, however I shot outdoors in either early morning or late afternoon and found no real reason to shoot at f/2.8.
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Have you got some axe to grind about Phase One?

    I'm not sure of the point your trying to make or the reason to dislike what is at the end of the day a marketing video. To me it seems to be a pretty standard setup that's not really worth getting worked up about.

    Do you work for Hasselblad or something?
    Nope don't work with or worship any particular brand.

    But for a full disclosure I was the testimonial for Polaroid professional large format advertising for which I received mini van loads of 8x10 polaroid for quite a few years for replacing photo with polaroid in my editorial photocredits. I have also been sponsored by Elinchrom, consulted with Manfrotto and a few more.

    I have plenty of praise for Phase One image quality.

    I actually asked Phase One to be able to use a Phase One demo photo to illustrate the IQ180 back and Schneider superiority. I got no reply.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Sorry to disappoint, however I shot outdoors in either early morning or late afternoon and found no real reason to shoot at f/2.8.
    Well then your previous reply has no relevance to the discussion. I clearly stated the f stop being used in the video.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Boy, what would we do without all this fancy-schmancy technology?

    It wasn't that long ago that I was shooting weddings with the 1st gen Mamiya 645AF and 645AFD with a slow moving bride. Granted it wasn't at f/2.8 but then again the DF and an IQ series back are much much faster to lock focus! My familiarity with previous generation bodies probably helps, but I just don't see anything extraordinary in this Phase video.

    The Phase DF, LS lens and IQ series back are quite a bit faster, and if I recall from the video, flash sync is at 1/800. Use of the studio strobes helps to freeze movement---a bit harder with wildlife. Hey, it's not too late to upgrade to an IQ series back!

    In this type of photography situation, you don't need to get every shot in focus; you need just enough to complete the project.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    I have tried a few times with a model walking towards camera at a regular pace.
    No luck at all.

    Don't get me wrong... I'd be very happy if it worked!
    So, deciphering your post you're basically saying......

    ...... with the DF and LS lenses the camera does not have any form of predictive AF function. eg. Due to the shutter lag, by the time the shutter fires in the LS lens the subjest has moved out of the focus zone when shooting wide open at f2.8 and the subject is moving directly towards the camera?

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Well then your previous reply has no relevance to the discussion. I clearly stated the f stop being used in the video.
    Easy tiger!

    There's no need to be rude!

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Well then your previous reply has no relevance to the discussion. I clearly stated the f stop being used in the video.
    I've reread your original post where you state that Phase is producing fiction in their video. You state that Phase is misleading. No where did you state the f/stop.

    I then reread your post #3. Once again you fail to make mention of f/2.8 while keeping with the allusion that Phase's video is fiction.

    Not until post #6 do you include f/2.8. Using a portion of my reply you state your request of "I would love to see a sequence of shots of wild life heading towards you and shot in continuous at f2.8".

    The response in post #7 was made in response to your post.

    Now I have a question for you Fred. I've been free in sharing direct hands on experience using Phase One products. I've been a very happy user of Phase One backs for many years as well as their camera systems. All with little to no problems in my field of work. What direct hands on experience have you had with the same and for how long?

    I'm not asking what you've read or seen on a video - I'm asking for direct hands on experience using Phase One equipment.

    I've no ax to grind here other than the fact I've seen too many threads where misinformation is being given as fact. Everyone is entitled to express their thoughts based on actual experience however when it's given as fact with no real experience of the product then it's very misleading.
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Yes but the video... if you watched it states that it was shot at 2.8

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Over 30 years of experience shooting fashion, beauty and portraits of famous people.
    I have owned many cameras including the Phase One DF and digital back etc etc etc.
    I have also rented so my experience is not based on just the equipment I own or owned.

    One thing that I can say for sure is that I don't love equipment. I consider equipment tools, but do treat them with respect.

    One thing I dislike a lot is marketing BS. it is made worse these days with disinformation on the net and how far it can go in either direction.

    Now if you were to ask me if there is a better MF body than the Phase One DF I would say not significantly.

    However I have to say that Hasselblad unlike Phase/Mamiya is far more realistic in their marketing claims. For example regarding their true focus they published a paper fully describing it's limitations.

    Why do I care... well I have seen quite a few photographers, especially younger ones taken for a ride and convinced to buy expensive gear to only later find out that so many of the marketing claims are way over stated.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Easy tiger!

    There's no need to be rude!
    Not being rude, just matter of fact, it may come over as a bit blunt, but not intended that way at all.
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    One thing I dislike a lot is marketing BS. it is made worse these days with disinformation on the net and how far it can go in either direction.
    Not trying to be cute but have you not chosen the wrong career (being a celebrity photographer) if you hate marketing BS. In my experience photography in general is one big melting pot of marketing BS and why companies employ photographers in the first place to fluff up their products.

    As for celebrities............ ( stereotype)

    IMO Phase One on the whole are very good at marketing what is a relatively new player in photography and have developed an excellent reputation for making extremely good photographic tools. They don't trade on their heritage as they don't have any. If that involves a little fluff and theatrics along the way, then that is ok by me as I'd never buy such an expensive piece of equipment without having tried it first to discover for myself if it ticks all the required boxes. If it doesn't work, I don't buy it and young or old, arranging a demo through a dealer is very easy to organise.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Why do I care... well I have seen quite a few photographers, especially younger ones taken for a ride and convinced to buy expensive gear to only later find out that so many of the marketing claims are way over stated.
    Not sure what convincing you've experienced/been told about Phase One dealers but that has never happened to me or people I know who shoot MFD. Every step of the way, my dealer encouraged me to TRY, TRY, TRY (Blad, Phase, Leaf) because he knew how good the product was he was selling. If I was spending the type of money involved in MFD purchase without being allowed a demo, alarm bells would have rang.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Fred

    Sorry, however you yourself stated "I clearly stated the f stop being used in the video", not what was on the video. You never clearly stated the f/stop. This is yet another demonstration of how words become tangled and thoughts misconstrued.

    Thank you for sharing your personal experience as it helps put things into perspective. I too agree that there are too many photographers who might take things at face value which is the reason I try to always include that the information I share is from my own personal experience.

    There can be a general tenacity for hyperbole when discussing our photographic equipment. It gets old fast when reading mine's better, or mine's bigger, or yours isn't good enough. While it doesn't happen much here it does occasionally get through. And that's why I like open and honest discussions based on fact. Factual discussion of a product based on real life experience not anecdotal experience is what is needed. When we fail to give actual experience we become no better than marketing hypes.

    If you ask me (which no one has) most all marketing claims miss the mark. Will I get brighter teeth, better gas mileage or save $500 by switching my car insurance? The same goes with camera manufactures. The claims are what draws the person into a dealer to see for themselves what the product is capable of producing. The ones who are in real danger are those who believe everything they read on the internet without trying it themselves.

    I choose Phase One for a very simple reason. It works for me. I tried Hasselblad and found it didn't. Both make claims. In my opinion both make great gear.

    Going back full circle here. Making a statement that a manufacture (this time Phase One) is producing fiction is misleading as it gives the reader the idea that the author thinks Phase One is out to mislead the public. It also makes the reader think the author has a chip on his/her shoulder and an ax to grind.

    This will shock you Fred- I agree with you. I too consider my equipment tools. It's these same tools that allow me to capture stunning landscape images and sell them at a huge profit.

    Cheers
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Fred hate too tell ya but I do it all the time with runway work and the Mamiya 300 4.5 on continuous AF and does a very good job of it actually. Now I have not seen the video so won't comment but I have posted this in digital reviews mostly under the threads about sensor plus which is mostly all runway with models walking the cat walk. I have had a huge success rate. Yes the focuso point mostly falls right at the belly area which in most cases is on the same focal plane. Would I like that focus point spread further out, no question but it does work. Also the DF the shutter lag has been GREATLY improved over the AFD. It's almost not noticeable not Nikon/Canon fast but actually very good.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Sometimes people have opinions based on real world experience because sometimes the marketing hype isn't accurate either. One on which I posted, was about Hasselblad advertising the use of an H3D/31 with micro-lenses, on a view camera. Well, unless you don't plan on using rise/fall, tilt/shift, then I guess you could, but who would? Misleading? Absolutely! It's nothing new with MFD. It's not so much the hype as the responses from brandwashed customers that are more colorful, and fun to read! Good work Fred! Please note smiley face to defuse the usual suspects, as this apparently, is the only way to convey tone and intent.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Seems Fred and Johhny have some bug up their bum and a big axe to grind all over these forums

    Fred discounts the video and Guy who has actually used it confirms the video

    Hope that is enough to imply intent even if the words imply the opposite

    Marc

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Over 30 years of experience shooting fashion, beauty and portraits of famous people.
    I have owned many cameras including the Phase One DF and digital back etc etc etc. .
    I think it's pretty fair to say that the GetDPI crowd is an older generation, and decades of photographic experience is not unusual. So sometimes what can make the difference is actual personal experience with Phase cameras and MFDBs, measured not in a few days or weeks or months, but years of personal experience with the Phase camera bodies. I was just about to say Guy would be a prime example of someone photographing moving models. It's just not that extraordinary---and certainly not misleading. I went back and viewed the video and tried my best to find it misleading---it's not. It's a boring video and even devoid of marketing hyperbole. Maybe you need to become more familiar with your DF or maybe your DF needs service. The IQ series backs are faster, though the P40+ and P65+ are no slouch either. Even a slow CF card can have an impact. Your personal experience with the DF may have been dissatisfying but that doesn't mean the Phase One video you linked to is misleading. And no, I'm not saying the Phase DF is perfect---far from it. But neither was Phase making any exhorbitant claims about the DF either.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    ....Why do I care... well I have seen quite a few photographers, especially younger ones taken for a ride and convinced to buy expensive gear to only later find out that so many of the marketing claims are way over stated.
    Again, I think it's safe to say photographers "especially younger ones" won't feel taken by this video. Most "younger ones" I know don't have twenty to forty large to drop on a Phase DF and IQ series back---I see that happening more on fast cars and women instead. Frankly, I find the paternalistic attitude offensive. If someone spends $40K on a camera system without so much as visiting a reputable dealer or personally trying it out including post-processing workflow, they have no one but themselves to blame if the system doesn't work out to be the right one for them. The same applies for any camera system. I very much believe that natural selection is a good thing.

    The next video up will be Guy shooting fashion with his Cambo WRS.... just because he can....

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    The next video up will be Guy shooting fashion with his Cambo WRS.... just because he can....
    God I'd love to see that! Actually if you think about it's been done already - sort of. Think back before digital and think of the press cameras with the huge flash bulbs. Fast forward to today and get inside Guy's head (scary place). If it worked then why nor now? The WRS with wood handles is much like the old press camera without the flash.

    So how 'bout it Guy?
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Guy,
    Be careful. If you focus on too many of those super-model belly buttons, you'll go blind!

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Heck, forget models with Guy & the Cambo. I want to see womens beach volleyball! (btw, I'm impressed that they used to shoot sports at all with those press cameras and monstrous glass).

    On a more serious note, DF auto focus is barely more than adequate. Sorry, but compared to pretty much any modern DSLR I'll stand by that statement, however much we wish it weren't so. I wouldn't go as far as Fred & JGDigital and call the video a lie but Im pretty sure that they didn't get that close to 90% keeper rate either.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Fred hate too tell ya but I do it all the time with runway work and the Mamiya 300 4.5 on continuous AF and does a very good job of it actually. Now I have not seen the video so won't comment but I have posted this in digital reviews mostly under the threads about sensor plus which is mostly all runway with models walking the cat walk. I have had a huge success rate. Yes the focuso point mostly falls right at the belly area which in most cases is on the same focal plane. Would I like that focus point spread further out, no question but it does work. Also the DF the shutter lag has been GREATLY improved over the AFD. It's almost not noticeable not Nikon/Canon fast but actually very good.
    From your other thread:

    Moving on to the ISO 800 shots these are ALL shot with a 300mm lens on a monopod with continuous focus settings. Mostly everything here is shot at 1/320 at about 7.1 so I will just post the images as they are without adding the shutter speed data and aperture as they are all in that range.
    There is a big difference between f2.8 and f7 for an autofucus system. There is also a very big difference between overcast sky and contrasty hot lights at a fashion show.. Phase One recommends shooting at f8 with faster focus setting.

    That said I would love to see a high res sequence of the same model shot in continuous ... by that I mean as fast as the guy was shooting in the video. He is shooting as fast as the back will capture. The guy in the video is also shooting down at the beginning and then level at the end.

    I did multiple tests with both my phase One bodies and did not consistent results. I shot the fashion shows in Milan many times, even back in the manual focus days.... not fun...

    Now I did not buy the Phase One for follow focus work but tried it for those times I want some movement in cloths as a model walks towards me etc.... moving car....
    Last edited by FredBGG; 1st April 2012 at 19:33.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    God I'd love to see that! Actually if you think about it's been done already - sort of. Think back before digital and think of the press cameras with the huge flash bulbs. Fast forward to today and get inside Guy's head (scary place). If it worked then why nor now? The WRS with wood handles is much like the old press camera without the flash.

    So how 'bout it Guy?
    We all do some off wack things....

    I once shot a high end look book for a L'Oreal hair stylist with an 8x10 camera with a 480mm lens, two tripods and a bellows extension. Some shots took so long one of the models fainted....

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Fred not everything was or is shot at F7 I do this 3 times a year and I bounce from wide open to whatever I need to do. I'm a Pro been one for years, I'm not here to boost about anything and rarely ever do. I'm good end of story and there is just about nothing I can't do with any cam in my hand I should too that is what I get paid for. Sorry but you really sound like you have a bone to pick with Phase let's be honest here it's almost on every thread.. Fred I can do it why would I put my reputation on the line with a statement I can't back up. Do I really need to be questioned here if I say I can I can. Btw there is no difference between wide open and stopped down with AF it's doing this wide open to start. I just have enough speed to stop motion and anybody with half a brain will take a extra stop of DOF when you can. It's a safety measure and on runway especially so. Fred honestly I really do not care with the video says or does. It's marketing you know better than that and every OEM boast some BS on there cameras.

    Mamiya 300 mm is a 4.5 lens AF. The older 2.8 is not AF

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Aperture makes quite a difference to auto focus. Advanced DSLR cameras have multiple focus points that can handle different maximum apertures. I can say that the 210mm f4 is more accurate and consistent than the 80mm 2.8D. Internal focus compared to external focus. The 300mm you were using is an internal focus too.

    Fred honestly I really do not care with the video says or does.
    Then why respond on a thread about the video...

    I would still like to see a rapid fire sequence of a model walking towards camera shot on the DF in auto focus with all the shots in focus with the lens wide open.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Then why respond on a thread about the video...
    Maybe because he's a pro and he speaks from his experience. Or it could be because he also owns this forum....

    Lets face it yet again - the focus ability of medium format has yet to reach what a 35mm DSLR offers. More than likely never will. Frankly it's a well worn story now.
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    In truth it's not remotely close to a Nikon /canon and the AF system is completely different. To even get close to 35 you need a P40 or better since these backs are faster and have a good buffer and even faster on sensor plus. You have to have a DF and you are hampered severely by the AF points since they need to be spread out much further. Continuous works okay and will keep pace with a runway model anything faster forget it grab a Nikon. This is really not what MF is about and never was. Great fashion shooters have been using MF for years almost none of them depend on AF for it. Frankly AF is not easy to use as manual focus for many is simply easier and you feel safer about it. People expect too much from theses systems that are really not truly designed to be the best system for things like this.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Continuous works okay and will keep pace with a runway model.
    While using continuous focus and an f stop around f8 I found the continuous focusing mode to be usable when taking shots with a reasonable interval.
    If I added continuous shooting as fast as the back could go the success rate was too low. Best way I have found with MF is to do a focus pull. Best with a camera assistant pulling focus on pre set marks... or just pick up a Canon or Nikon with the right lens and body.

    I like to have a high focus hit rate especially if I am doing fashion with a lot of movement. I hate looking at shots that are a perfect pose and expression, but the focus is back or front focus, and then the bad poses are in focus....

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Fred last comment my success rate is about 90 percent and if it was not that good I would not be using it I get 5 frames off easily all in focus. I sell these images to the models so I can't miss or I miss out. This is a business and I would not risk the income. I also own the company now with my wife. I'm crazy as hell but I ain't stupid to take that big a risk if I could not pull it off. I will gracefully walk off this thread now. I have absolutely nothing to prove here except my initial comment it's doable I do it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You have to have a DF and you are hampered severely by the AF points since they need to be spread out much further.
    Just this point that you make is enough to question the video.
    The models face not center frame in nearly all the shots. At f2.8 this is a big problem.... unless out of focus faces are OK.

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Fred last comment my success rate is about 90 percent and if it was not that good I would not be using it I get 5 frames off easily all in focus. I sell these images to the models so I can't miss or I miss out. This is a business and I would not risk the income. I also own the company now with my wife. I'm crazy as hell but I ain't stupid to take that big a risk if I could not pull it off. I will gracefully walk off this thread now. I have absolutely nothing to prove here except my initial comment it's doable I do it.
    I am not questioning your skill... auto focus is the cameras skill

    Are you getting a 90% hit rate in continuous focus shooting continuous shots with a model pacing briskly towards camera?

    And if so why did you sell your DF?

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    Yes they are walking straight at me. Simply do not want to support 3 separate systems . I love my tech cam and expanding that and upgraded my 35 kit. Right now that works for me. I don't need MF to shoot runway since I use sensor plus. I just liked shooting it, the Nikon is simply easier on me at 2k images per day is grinding . Now if I need to use DF for a project it's a phone call away from my dealer to rent it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    I just think you've been using that big Fuji too long Fred. All those years of bending over, looking through a WLF has got you into some bad swaying motion when using any other camera system. You'll never get sharp focus at f2.8.

    I do get your point as I have noticed a longer shutter lag between FS and LS lenses. If the DF is totally devoid of any form of predictive autofocus (have no idea), the model is moving fast enough towards the camera, all shot wide open so very small margin of error and you're using a Schneider LS lens then I suppose there is a possibility of what you have encountered. A lot of "what if's" but that's professional photography I suppose. If anything can go wrong, it usually does type of scenario.

    However, I enjoy the whole DF experience and very much enjoy using my back with it and a tech camera so don't share your continual negative remarks about it.
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    Re: Fiction from Phase One.

    I think there are a few things that we can all gain knowledge from peppered through-out this thread ... or at the very least "re-remember" least we forget.


    Don't believe everything you see or hear ... whether positive or negative. Investigate, try, and privately ask someone who actually uses what you considering (to eliminate group dynamics that may taint the reply).

    As someone already mentioned, long term familiarity and skill with any given camera should figure in the equation. Even if you do a demo, a few hours or even a day with a camera, especially a MFD, probably will not reveal all of its capabilities. I moved from many years with a Contax 645 for one reason, slow AF ... one demo of a Hasselblad H at a trade show persuaded me to switch. However, years of continuous use for all sorts of applications, using the same system, has made a huge difference. I now can intuitively play a H camera like a musical instrument.

    To that last point ... IMO, people are to quick to condemn and switch to something else in search of the holy grail. They jump from lilly-pad to lilly-pad and never seem satisfied ... which robs them of ever really learning a system and all it can do. They think technology is always the better answer, when in reality, only they can make themselves better.

    Just because a camera can do something doesn't mean it is the best tool for that application. Understand the limitations compared to something else. So, while a MFD can do CAF, I doubt anyone will debate that a Pro 35mm DSLR most certainly will do it better. However, if you do not do certain applications very often, it is nice to know that you can do CAF with certain select MFD cameras if needed (which I believe was the point of the video).

    Plus, it can be a matter of priorities, trends, and client demands that can make one attribute over-ride another. A huge amount of Fashion work was/is done with MFD (even old V cameras), and fashion work is a key positioning that Leica used for the S2. Plenty of Phase and Hasselblad H cameras used for this work by some very sucessful shooters ... which is a fact that cannot be over-looked. Perhaps trends will change, but history cannot be just swept under the rug.


    Just a few thoughts based on actual experiences ... both bad and good.

    -Marc
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