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Thread: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

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    Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Hi.

    1. From my experience a 6x4.5 film scanned with Nikon 9000 is equal a 22 mega pixels back. Is there any reason to use a 22 mega pixels digital back on a Mamia RZ67 IID? Why a digital sensor will outperform a larger 6x7 film?

    2. I have a Sinarback 54M with Contax 645 adapter attached to my Contax 645.
    How to use a moveable Contax 645 Back (Widepan made in china) attached to Sinar P2 4x5 camera? I'm completely new to moveable backs, are they worth the money? Is this for still life subjects or whatever else?
    Should I better buy a 4/16 back, like a Sinarback 54H?

    Thank

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    1. It depends on the film, scanner. and software Many lower-end scanners do not have accurate focus. Also, any curvature in the film will produce a soft scan. With decent film, the Flextight X5 should outperform a 22MP sensor easily.

    2. The 54H 16-shot mode will produce the best file. This is because you are capturing 22MP x 16 = 352 MP worth of actual 16-bit image information, much higher than any scanner. However, some of the movable back mechanisms will allow you to stitch multiple images from a P2, also with good results. In fact, you can even use the 54H 16-shot mode combined with such stitching for incredible resolution, but the file will become so huge that you will most likely be forced into reducing to 8-bit color, or else invest in a more powerful computer.

    3. A third option to consider is a combination of 1 and 2, namely use 4x5 film with a decent scanner and software that does sixteen passes. The multiple scanner passes are best able to remove noise and grain, but also can improve dynamic range by under and over exposing some of the passes.

    The X5 is not exactly cheap, but if you prefer to use film, it is probably your best choice. Otherwise, I recommend the 54H. The sixteen pass scanning solution is cheapest, but is really time consuming and you still need to deal with accurate focusing and film flatness issues. I only saw this done once at one of the photo shows, and I was not as impressed as with the other options, but I still offer it as a consideration in case cost is a major concern.

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Re the RZ 67: The main benefits I see to the RZ67 are not about the format per se, but rather the way the camera works. The RZ has both a waist-level finder AND rotatable back, a very nice arrangement for many shooting situations. In addition, it has a generous bellows focusing system which can get you pretty close to a subject with the normal lens. Next the lenses are excellent and the digital sensor happens to take advantage of the center or "sweet spot" in them. Finally the system has some interesting lens options; a tilt-shift adapter and two special short-base lenses that allow for infinity focus with the TS adapter, an Imagon-disk-style soft-focus lens, and an outstanding macro lens.

    Oh, and on top of that, it can shoot full-frame 6x7 using film
    Jack
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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    David and Jack, thanks. You helped me to make order in my mind.
    I spent yesterday all day to read about Betterlight, 4x5 cameras and Mamia RZ67.

    I ended with the decision to rather take a 4/16-shoot digital back or 6x9 camera (or larger with 6x9 back), because my Nikon 9000 glass holder allows scanning up to 6x9, also has 16-pass mode, and I happy with the results. The drum scanner may be can produce a better result but I believe the difference is so small that don't worth the addition investment in second scanner.

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    By the way, can you recommend a good camera that can shoot 6x9 film and accept digital backs?

    The camera is for studio high resolution still lifes and portraits/models.
    Last edited by evgeny; 11th October 2008 at 00:37.

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Evgeny (Eugene) I have recently acquired an RZ67 Pro11D and I have a Mamiya adaptor and have put a Phase One 45+ back on to his camera to play with. I am still in learning mode with this camera but I must agree with Jack's observations regarding the benefits of a rotating back and waist level finder combined with very nicely made lenses- I understand now why people still use Hasselblad V systems with digi backs - the VIEWFINDER and WLF experience is very nice. I do not like any WLF in 645 format.
    You can get a prism finder - but I dont use mine the WLF is addictive.

    ok there are some limitations with the system - a top shutter speed of 1/400th and a heavy camera to hold with some larger lenses for extended periods are my main observations here.

    Most fun? definaetly waist level finder - and also a great way to learn how to see light and choose shutter /aperture combinations for ISO - made easy by digital back.

    Would I shoot film with this? I would rather shoot 6x7 with a Mamiya 711 and a 43 on it.

    I think we may have to start an RZ67 sub forum soon - this is an undiscovered jewel of a system - much cheaper entry point than other camera/lens systems.
    So far my shots are hand held, but I am getting good results at insanely low shutter speeds - down to 1/30th because the camera's weight actually helps here. The lenses are a revelation to me - sharp where you want them to be sharp and beautiful out of focus rendition.

    The major negative with this camera and digital back use is the large crop factor 1.5X on a P45+ back. So the excellent 50MM is not wide enough for my purposes therefore I am picking up a fisheye lens this week and look forward to a wider capability.

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by evgeny View Post
    By the way, can you recommend a good camera that can shoot 6x9 film and accept digital backs?

    The camera is for studio high resolution still lifes and portraits/models.
    I think a view camera is your best bet for 6x9, and then I'd go with a 4x5 for flexibility as you can also shoot 6x12 on it. But while view cameras are awesome for still-life/product, they are a total PITA to use for portraiture!

    So another option I'd consider would be a Fuji GX680... Only a 6x8 capture area, but that is a 3:4 aspect ratio and almost the same film area as 6x9, and you have the added flexibility of an SLR camera with many of the same advantages mentioned for the RZ67. It is larger and heavier than even the RZ67 -- less significant a concern for in-studio -- but it also has a front standard that tilts and shifts with all its lenses, so adds options for composition on still-life/product. Also has a similar soft-focus lens to the aforementioned RZ for portraiture. (Note you need to be careful buying used as some of the bodies were "economy" versions and did not have the tilt/shift front standard.) The lenses are reputed to be excellent, and IIRC focal lengths range from 65 up through 300mm.
    Jack
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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Evgeny,

    I believe you said that you already own a P2 and a Contax 645, yes?

    You can get a 6x9 rollfilm back from Sinar, which will satisfy your film requirement.

    Then, you can add a quad stitching adapter (http://www.kapturegroup.com/quad/quad.html) to your P2 in Contax mount, which will allow you to use your 54M to create larger resolution images.This should get you some pretty amazing images with your existing equipment at minimal cost.

    The next step up in digital image resolution will require the Sinar P3 or F3 system with CMV lenses and a 54H. If you combine such a system with a stitching adapter like the one above, it would be the highest resolution digital imaging capability commercially available today. For example, a four shot stitch in 16-shot mode will give you an image that could end up at over 1000 megapixels in size (a 2GB+ image file).

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    David is absolutely right: good solution to make use of your existing p2.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Evgeny,

    I believe you said that you already own a P2 and a Contax 645, yes?

    You can get a 6x9 rollfilm back from Sinar, which will satisfy your film requirement.

    Then, you can add a quad stitching adapter (http://www.kapturegroup.com/quad/quad.html) to your P2 in Contax mount, which will allow you to use your 54M to create larger resolution images.This should get you some pretty amazing images with your existing equipment at minimal cost.

    The next step up in digital image resolution will require the Sinar P3 or F3 system with CMV lenses and a 54H. If you combine such a system with a stitching adapter like the one above, it would be the highest resolution digital imaging capability commercially available today. For example, a four shot stitch in 16-shot mode will give you an image that could end up at over 1000 megapixels in size (a 2GB+ image file).

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    PeterA, I read only good reviews about Mamiya 7II.

    Jack, can you recommend Fuji GX680 III over Sinar F2 and P2?
    I can buy a used Fuji GX680 III with a GX 135mm lens or new F2 (not P2) with a 180mm Sinaron Digital lens for the same money.
    Or I can buy a new Sinar P2 for little more or new GX680 III for $2K more, the price is without lens.
    The Fuji GX680 III looks as more advanced camera to my SLR eyes, but use strange batteries, I think. The F2/P2 look as very manual cameras with larger frame, I'm afraid if 4x5 will take a lot of space in my home studio. I actually like to stay with 120 films to utilize many rolls I already have in the fridge and my Nikon 9000 scanner, which means 6x8 or 6x9 maximum, plus attach my 54M digital back. I will like sometimes to shoot with large format camera outdoors on tripod. What do you think? Are Fuji GX680 III lenses as good as Contax 645, which I already use. Can you recommend three GX680 III lenses for portrait and still life? Is F2/P2 so much better?

    David, the Sinar Quad stitching adapter is $4995 better built and looks more advanced than Chinese $450 adapter. But I cannot justify the price. For the price of Quad, I can eBay a BetterLight with an upgrade to true 6000-HS, which retails for over $12,000 new..

    Photography: portreit, models, still life.

    PLEASE talk to me
    Last edited by evgeny; 12th October 2008 at 05:48.

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    evgeny,

    If you are speaking about the Sinar Macroscan adapter: yes, for sure, it is a precise piece, automatically moves and stitches 2 (V or H) or 4 tiles together.

    BUT: the Macroscan is discontinued since a while, although there are still a few available and although it can be found second hand easily, IMO. I can't imagine that the price you mention is right.

    AND: be aware that the Macroscan is supported only with Captureshop 4.x, not with Captureshop 5.x nor with Sinar eXposure.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by evgeny View Post
    David, the Sinar Quad stitching adapter is $4995 better built and looks more advanced than Chinese $450 adapter. But I cannot justify the price. For the price of Quad, I can eBay a BetterLight with an upgrade to true 6000-HS, which retails for over $12,000 new..

    Photography: portreit, models, still life.

    PLEASE talk to me

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Hi Thierry,
    that price is shown in the web page that David refered to.
    Thank for the important info, I currently use Captureshop 5.x, looks like 120 film still have its place in such situations

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Alright, that's not the Sinar Macroscan.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by evgeny View Post
    Hi Thierry,
    that price is shown in the web page that David refered to.
    Thank for the important info, I currently use Captureshop 5.x, looks like 120 film still have its place in such situations

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    If you are looking for a medium format studio camera, the Fuji GX680 series is the coolest by far. Is it the most practical? Probably not. But it is a really amazing system. I don't think you will be able to fit any digital backs on it, other than the one that they made for it (which I am not sure ever actually made it into production). The RZ is a very practical studio camera -- I don't know about it being an undiscovered jewel though...the RZ/RB have been among the most popular medium format professional cameras for decades! There are lot of pros who shoot digital backs with them just because of that fact -- they are so damn used to them.
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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Looks like you can put a hassy back on it

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...late_Kit.html#
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Alright, that's not the Sinar Macroscan.

    Thierry
    Yes, that $$$ should be read as Kapturegroup Quad, not Sinar Quad
    Thank!

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by evgeny View Post
    Jack, can you recommend Fuji GX680 III over Sinar F2 and P2?
    First off, speaking only generically, I will simply repeat that shooting *portraits* or anything involving people with a view camera -- even one with a sliding back -- is not an "easy" process. Yes it can be done, but it takes some doing to get the hang of it and get good enough to be proficient at it. OTOH, if the portraiture you want to do is only casual, then being proficient is not necessarily a requisite. With any SLR, you have the advantage of "direct viewing" which certainly facilitates composition, focus and capturing momentary expressions. Also, even as big as the GX system is, it is still smaller than a view camera, and it *can* be used hand-held if desired, though this is probably a minor consideration.

    On the flip side, the view camera with all of its movements available on both front and rear standards, can be a benefit with *product* or still life style shooting. However, most -- say over 90% -- of the convenience of composition is available with only front movements. Lastly, there is the issue of magnified and accurate focus, and here a properly tuned SLR will out-perform the best view camera, unless you have a good "live focus" option with your DB.

    ~~~

    As to specific recommendations, I really only have loose suggestions. I have never owned the GX680 system, but have used it. I understand the biggest advantage to the 3 over the 2 or 1 is the battery design -- the 3 takes AA's maybe? Anyway, do some careful homework before buying. Note there are also a few generations of lenses, and some of the latest were marked "D" and supposed to be better-tuned to digital sensors.

    Sinar F versus P. I have owned both the P and P2 and used the F. For the extra cost, I feel the geared, self-locking movements on the P are worth their weight in gold when it comes to both composition and ease/convenience of use. However, the tilts and swings are asymmetric and may not be set optimally for the smaller DB format? Perhaps Thierry can weigh in here. I don't know if the X is still made, but it was kind of an economy version of the P2 without the ability to change formats IIRC, so maybe represents a nice compromise? I am sure Thierry can give you more specifics on these options.

    So in conclusion, knowing what I know about cameras, knowing how I shoot, and knowing what works best for my brain:

    1) if I were doing both portraiture and still life in a dedicated studio or on location, I would lean toward the GX over the view camera;

    2) if I were doing mostly still life (or product) and only occasionally (less than 1x per month) portraiture in a dedicated studio only, I would probably choose a view system with a sliding back.

    3) if I were planning on doing anything on location or in the field, then I would probably choose the GX. However, I might then might also consider a more portable view camera dedicated to MF like the Linhof 679 or Rollei XAct.

    My .02 only,
    Jack
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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Looks like you can put a hassy back on it

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...late_Kit.html#


    Also, this adapter is today on eBay. Don't know how to translate Sinar Imacon, need to contact the seller ?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Adapter-DIGITAL-...d=p3286.c0.m14

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Jack, thanks!

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    The Fuji system is simultaneously the most flexible, powerful, and amazing studio camera AND the biggest PITA ever.

    I wrote a troubleshooting and setup guide for using a Phase One back with the Fuji system. It should give you some insight as to what using the system entails. Once set up properly this system can go for hundreds of thousands of shots (we know because we have several out there which have) without problems. So I don't write this to scare you off of the platform. As I said, it is an unbelievably powerful system and performs like a champ for image quality and features. However, it's as far from a point and shoot as anything you can buy, and you should know that up front.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/20...t-fuji-680iii/

    *hoping he doesn't catch a lot of forum flak for his honesty*

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    I hear you Doug, but I don't think the Sinar backs need the delay/wake-up box and thus are a bit "simpler" to use on the GX... More to the point, it is still a more portable and convenient system than a view camera.
    Jack
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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Thank Doug!

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    If you are looking for a medium format studio camera, the Fuji GX680 series is the coolest by far. Is it the most practical? Probably not. But it is a really amazing system. I don't think you will be able to fit any digital backs on it, other than the one that they made for it (which I am not sure ever actually made it into production). The RZ is a very practical studio camera -- I don't know about it being an undiscovered jewel though...the RZ/RB have been among the most popular medium format professional cameras for decades! There are lot of pros who shoot digital backs with them just because of that fact -- they are so damn used to them.
    Apart from Marc Williams on this forum - no one has ever said anything about the system. Hence my comment. However - I wil refrain from such outlandish comments in future. I stand corrected.

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Alright, that's not the Sinar Macroscan.

    Thierry
    Thierry, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the MacroScan worked only for backs upto the 43H/44H. Are the 54S/54M/54H also supported? The KaptureGroup adapter works only with 22/39MP backs.

    Cheers,
    Kumar

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    Re: Digital back on 6x7 and 4x5 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by evgeny View Post
    Hi.

    1. From my experience a 6x4.5 film scanned with Nikon 9000 is equal a 22 mega pixels back. Is there any reason to use a 22 mega pixels digital back on a Mamia RZ67 IID? Why a digital sensor will outperform a larger 6x7 film?

    2. I have a Sinarback 54M with Contax 645 adapter attached to my Contax 645.
    How to use a moveable Contax 645 Back (Widepan made in china) attached to Sinar P2 4x5 camera? I'm completely new to moveable backs, are they worth the money? Is this for still life subjects or whatever else?
    Should I better buy a 4/16 back, like a Sinarback 54H?

    Thank

    The Fuji would be much more useful if you want to do people an products.
    Kapture Group makes a great interface for the Fuji that allows it to work flawless. www.kapturegroup.com

    I think the Fuji is nice because you can shoot people and drop focus just like the pros do. Focus on eyes and drop the lens to place the shoulders out of focus. Just like Walter does when he shoots Tiger Woods for magazine covers.

    Then you can really work it like a view camera for close ups or even room shots. I have 30 customers using this in high volume studios with great sucess. Sure little things happen but over all it is a great system with most backs ( I like the P45+ on this one) Be sure to get the one shot cable release from Kapture Group. It will make your life easy.

    I also have alot of experience with 4x5 capture using these stiching adapters. The 2-3 stich works great. Quad is really confussing to keep straight when you may be bracketing for HDR. Too many pictures to make one. And like others that have mentioned shooting portraits is tough with sliding back on 4x5. Not to mention the weight of one system over the other. I think you will really enjoy using the Fuji because it's like having a MF camera and a view camera in one with a good variety of sharp optics.


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