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Thread: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

  1. #1
    amaimani
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    From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Hello everyone..

    I have been thinking recently to change my MF system from Hassy H3D 31MP to a Phase One 645, iQ180, through a trade off.

    Can you please share with me your thinking.. Has anyone here changed from H3D 31MP to Phase 645? what are pros and cons. Strength of Hassy H3D 31Mp camera over 645 FD and vice versa?

    By style of Photography is basically Landscape and Portraits.

    Thanks in advance.

    Abdul

  2. #2
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    The IQ180 bit sounds just fine, but nothing on god's earth could persuade me to jump from Hasselblad's H3D to Phase One's DF camera.
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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  3. #3
    amaimani
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    The IQ180 bit sounds just fine, but nothing on god's earth could persuade me to jump from Hasselblad's H3D to Phase One's DF camera.
    Hello Keith,

    Can you please give me more insights why you won't jump from H3D to DF?
    I will appreciate more comments from you please?

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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Backs aside (because there's no comparison, the IQ's are way better), with the Hassy you can use a WLF or normal finder (very good). The DF just has a fixed finder. + for Hassy.

    If we're talking AF, they're about equal, but the H4 is better than the DF. + for Hassy

    The lenses: Primes are about equal, but the Hassy has a faster 100 (f2,2) and way, way, way better zooms. + for Hassy

    The DF has a central shutter and leaf shutter lenses. + for DF
    But, I use LS lenses, and the central shutter on my DF just blew after one year (just out of warranty!). That ruined a shoot and cost me a bundle. -1 for DF

    Mirror up is way better on the Hassy. + for Hassy

    Body configuration: with the Hassy you can read the menus! With the DF you have to have a printed list to be able to change a setting in the camera! + for Hassy

    The Hassy is better when hand holding and you can delay the mirror. The DF shutter has a major thunk to it. hard for hand held shots at lower speeds. + for Hassy

    That's just my opinion though.

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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Forgive me, but I won’t bother going into detailed technical reasoning. Suffice to say there is a far more fundamental reason for my preference. My camera is my window to the world and the means to create my images. Every time I pick up a DF all I want to do is put it down again, every time I pick up an H Series all I want to do is use it. If you haven’t already done so you’ll need to do the same, handle and use both before making any decision.

    Anything else is living vicariously.
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Quote Originally Posted by kipling View Post
    Backs aside (because there's no comparison, the IQ's are way better), with the Hassy you can use a WLF or normal finder (very good). The DF just has a fixed finder. + for Hassy.

    If we're talking AF, they're about equal, but the H4 is better than the DF. + for Hassy

    The lenses: Primes are about equal, but the Hassy has a faster 100 (f2,2) and way, way, way better zooms. + for Hassy

    The DF has a central shutter and leaf shutter lenses. + for DF
    But, I use LS lenses, and the central shutter on my DF just blew after one year (just out of warranty!). That ruined a shoot and cost me a bundle. -1 for DF

    Mirror up is way better on the Hassy. + for Hassy

    Body configuration: with the Hassy you can read the menus! With the DF you have to have a printed list to be able to change a setting in the camera! + for Hassy

    The Hassy is better when hand holding and you can delay the mirror. The DF shutter has a major thunk to it. hard for hand held shots at lower speeds. + for Hassy

    That's just my opinion though.

    Just a corrective note - On all Phase One digital backs since 2009 (P40+/65+/IQ140/160/180) the DF camera custom function menus are accessible from the digital back LCD in complete sentence structure, no crib notes necessary.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Is there ANY camera with AF and a waist level finder that accepts Phase backs? For tech cam work, the Phase has obvious advantages, but it would be nice to be able to do something else with the insanely expensive hunk of metal and silicon. Maybe Contax? Pity about the Hy6

    --Matt

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Is there ANY camera with AF and a waist level finder that accepts Phase backs? For tech cam work, the Phase has obvious advantages, but it would be nice to be able to do something else with the insanely expensive hunk of metal and silicon. Maybe Contax? Pity about the Hy6

    --Matt

    W/AF & WLF
    Contax 645 AF
    Hasselblad H1/H2/H4X

    W/O AF & WLF
    Hasselblad 500 Series (500, 501, 503, 553, 555, etc)
    Fuji GX680
    Mamiya RB/RZ/RZ Pro-IID


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Ah! So the Contax has a WLF! (I guess I could have googled that.. thank you.) I handled one briefly and it seemed a nicely solid machine. Is the H4X still "upgrade only"? I'm just hoping that by the time I get around to an actual purchase, the mythical New Phase Body will be a reality. And that it will have a good viewfinder (not optimistic about that).

    The only eye level viewfinder I've ever seen that is good with glasses is the Leica S2. Contax, Hassy, Phase, Nikon (except the high eye point), Canon, and Sony all believe that your eye has to be mashed up against the viewfinder.

    Anyway, thanks Steve, for the list.

    Matt

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Forgive me, but I won’t bother going into detailed technical reasoning. Suffice to say there is a far more fundamental reason for my preference. My camera is my window to the world and the means to create my images. Every time I pick up a DF all I want to do is put it down again, every time I pick up an H Series all I want to do is use it. If you haven’t already done so you’ll need to do the same, handle and use both before making any decision.

    Anything else is living vicariously.
    Exactly my experience.

    I've been torn between the Hassy and the 645 Mamiya / Phase systems and I wasn't sure on either until I got digital backs for both.

    The AFD's autofocus is 'OK' but it embarrasses you from time to time and it's not pretty as the centre point is way too big. There's the DF, a 4000 GBP camera which has awesome autofocus but it doesn't take film backs....and I like film.

    So, The Hassy H1 (1000 GBP) I use has autofocus as good or better than the DF. This is the H1, a 10 year old camera. This aside though you can pretty much dismantle the blad, which I like a lot.
    Film backs work, pretty much any digital back fits and whilst there's the argument of the fastest shutter speed being only 1/800 (vs 1/4000 on the 645DF) it bears thinking that it's only 2 and a bit stops of aperture and all the blad lenses are leaf shutter as standard.

    There's a lot of arguments for both, based on who you are, style of shooting etc but for me the Hassy has soul and I feel at one with the Hassy where I didn't with the DF.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Ah! So the Contax has a WLF! (I guess I could have googled that.. thank you.) I handled one briefly and it seemed a nicely solid machine. Is the H4X still "upgrade only"? I'm just hoping that by the time I get around to an actual purchase, the mythical New Phase Body will be a reality. And that it will have a good viewfinder (not optimistic about that).

    The only eye level viewfinder I've ever seen that is good with glasses is the Leica S2. Contax, Hassy, Phase, Nikon (except the high eye point), Canon, and Sony all believe that your eye has to be mashed up against the viewfinder.

    Anyway, thanks Steve, for the list.

    Matt

    Oh darn, I knew I'd forget someone....

    W/O AF & WLF
    Bronica ETR
    Bronica SQ

    I'm sure there's more....

    Hey - don't underestimate the Bronica! They were Anniversary Edition before Anniversary Edition was cool.



    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: • Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar • Authorized Reseller

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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    I'm going to stick my neck on the line here and swim against the majority by saying I like the DF!

    IMO internet forum humdrum is the main cause of hate directed towards the DF and most just jump on the band wagon. The AF in the DF is very good and I always get good results from it when used carefully.

    A camera body for the vast majority of stuff I shoot is a tool and a means to attach a digital back to the best quality and selection of lenses available. The DF wins hands down. Feelings don't come into it IMO, flexibility does.

    I like the Blad system but felt the Phase camera offered more.
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Just a corrective note - On all Phase One digital backs since 2009 (P40+/65+/IQ140/160/180) the DF camera custom function menus are accessible from the digital back LCD in complete sentence structure, no crib notes necessary.


    Steve Hendrix
    Well, it's about time I found that out.
    Thanx Steve

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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I'm going to stick my neck on the line here and swim against the majority by saying I like the DF!

    IMO internet forum humdrum is the main cause of hate directed towards the DF and most just jump on the band wagon. The AF in the DF is very good and I always get good results from it when used carefully.

    A camera body for the vast majority of stuff I shoot is a tool and a means to attach a digital back to the best quality and selection of lenses available. The DF wins hands down. Feelings don't come into it IMO, flexibility does.

    I like the Blad system but felt the Phase camera offered more.
    Hate? No reason to hate either imo. Both are okay.
    It's the little thing like a WLF, really good zooms, better AF and a faster 100mm lens that I prefer on the Hassy, but there are nice things about the DF as well. I like all the SK primes and I love the AF/MF lens ring.
    I just question some things like the plastic lens shades and the eye piece that I have to gaffer tape to the camera...but nothings perfect.

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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    [QUOTE=Steve Hendrix;407172]Oh darn, I knew I'd forget someone....


    thank you steve for this picture.. I allways had a really strong feeling about the hasselblad "H-Body-Design" not being the result of a creative process. now we know it was a true evolutionary step/thing.

    peter

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    Senior Member stngoldberg's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    I have never used the Phase one system, but have extensive experience with the H4D50 Hasselblad both as a system and with the Arca Swiss RM3DI. The body of the Hasselblad delivers outstanding performance in so far as durability and reliability. The ability to focus has been flawless and True Focus allows composition unmatched by any other camera system. The lenses deliver excellent sharp images and the 300mm is outstanding for landscape (think palouse and tuscany).
    The system works flawlessly with the Arca Swiss and I assume other technical cameras.
    Stanley

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    Super Duper
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    I'm in the Hassey camp, and have nothing good or bad to say about the Phase One offering. Just try them and see what seems to fit. I do not like the Mamiya body no matter what they do to it, but that's just a personal fit issue and not some universal fact.

    If you are shooting on a tech camera, the advantages of the IQ 160 and 180 are obvious. A Hasselblad back will work, but has to be powered separately. The exception was supposed to be the H4D/60 back that takes a clip-on battery and has the mechanism to do so ... but Hasselblad has YET to deliver the battery, so as far as I'm concerned it is vaporware until delivered.

    On the H4D body, there is very little that can't be done, they doubled the resolution from your H3DII, added a one touch focus check, added a digital spirit level and the True Focus works as advertised for off center compositions ... the zoom lenses are incredible especially the 35-90 across the whole zoom range. The 100/2.2 is unique in signature, the newer 50-II and 150N are is as good as it gets ... blah blah, blah ... the HTS/1.5 is great for movements, and a waist level finder is an essential IMO.

    If you want spontaneous AF I'd avoid the Contax 645 ... that was a main reason I moved from Contax to the H system.

    -Marc

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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Phase One would offer you:
    Faster focal plane shutter.
    Slightly faster leak shutter in some lenses (one stop)
    Possibility of using Hasselblad V lenses that don't have shutters like the magnificent 110mm f2.
    Has an optional V-Grip

    Focusing on the DF is not as accurate as the Hasselblad if you need to focus and recompose.

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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    just a few thoughts…

    if you are allready familiar with the Hasselblad why don't you just upgrade to a H4x, put a Phase back on it and stay with your lenses. personally I didn't like the H in the past (mosly for it's form factor/ergonomics). but this has changed a bit. the quality is great, the system works and the lenses are also superb. adding the HTS will give you many creative possibilities.

    in fact from a technical standpoint nearly all backs and cameras produce nice files when used properly, but on the software side there is no substitute for CaptureOne in my opinion. (workflow/ease of use/speed). although I must say that phocus software delivers absolutely killer files and colour with it's native backs.

    if you can live with only one lens range option (and this is NO restriction !!! ) and cope with it's max shutter speed than stay with the hassy.

    end of the day I would say the hassy has the more versatile/sophisticated body (finder options, True Focus HTS and so on…) and Phase has te most versatile back/software/lens solution… body wise the phase it is a more basic solutuion and now with that "magic battery" the major flaw seems to be gone.

    just a few thoughts…

    peter

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Just curious why you don't consider upgrading to the H4-60?

    Matt, what do you mean pity about the Hy6 - the company DHW is still operating and making cameras and you can buy both Sinar and Leaf backs for it.

    Add IMHO - the H4 body is probably the best MF camera out there - only bested by the Hy6. The DF is not anywhere in the same league as those two. Why Phase keeps pushing this is beyond reason - the marriage of the beauty (IQ backs) and the beast.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Quote Originally Posted by kipling View Post
    Hate? No reason to hate either imo. Both are okay.
    It's the little thing like a WLF, really good zooms, better AF and a faster 100mm lens that I prefer on the Hassy, but there are nice things about the DF as well. I like all the SK primes and I love the AF/MF lens ring.
    I just question some things like the plastic lens shades and the eye piece that I have to gaffer tape to the camera...but nothings perfect.
    Btw, you can get a new revised eye piece that has a lock on it so that it doesn't fall off every time. $99 well spent although I guess gaffer tape is cheaper.

    Love the SK & D glass. I tolerate the relative crudeness of the DF for the glass although it still has some features that mystify me such as the AEB and exposure compensation being linked so in reality you simply just ignore that feature. I shoot in manual exposure mode and appreciate the ability to have the camera set exposure automatically by holding the AE lock button. Ditto the timed MUP release is convenient.

    I'd definitely subscribe to the approach of trying the cameras to see which one feels natural to you. The ergonomics make a big difference and will affect your long term satisfaction with the system probably more than features & functionality.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Just curious why you don't consider upgrading to the H4-60?

    Matt, what do you mean pity about the Hy6 - the company DHW is still operating and making cameras and you can buy both Sinar and Leaf backs for it.

    Add IMHO - the H4 body is probably the best MF camera out there - only bested by the Hy6. The DF is not anywhere in the same league as those two. Why Phase keeps pushing this is beyond reason - the marriage of the beauty (IQ backs) and the beast.
    Oh, there's no problem with the Hy6! My primary interest (landscape/architecture with a tech cam) leads me to the Phase backs and for reasons never adequately explained, although often defended, Phase refuses to be compatible with the Hy6. Ah well.

    --Matt

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    Re: From H3D to P1 645.. what U think?

    Well, I'm not sure my opinion is worth much because I've never used Hassy with digital capture, tho' I used the 500 CM and the FC in my film days. Still, I have handled the present day bodies and they certainly look and are finished better than Phase.

    However, I must say a few words in defense of Phasmiya. I've had the AFD, AFD III and now the DF/IQ180. They have each functioned faultlessly. I find the viewfinders great (espec. after DSLRs!) and the ergonomics quite good, though not perfect. Yes, the AF is a bit primitive but as a mainly landscape shooter I don't care.

    The Phase lenses are above reproach. The 150D is the sharpest MF lens I've ever used. The 55 LS is a beauty and my most used optic. The 28 isn't perfect til f11, but then it's fabulous. And so on and so on! In other words, yes, I'm a fan.

    Would I be as happy with Hassy? Yes - almost certainly. It's doubtless a great system. In the end you pays your money and takes your choice.

    Bill

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