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Bargain MFDB deals at dealers!

malmac

Member
MFD might be suffering some fallout from release of D800, I see that some people on the Forum have bought the 5D3 from Canon but how many Canon users are considering the shift to Nikon?

I wonder how the marketing chaps and ladies at Canon are appraising the impact of the D800?


Mal
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I have a 5Diii, 800E and Aptus II 12 (soon to be IQ180)...so there are my biases. I got the 800E so I could have something I could use out of a Kayak, easier to swallow dropping a 5K kit in Lake Superior vs. a 50K one. Having said this, I think the two serve very different purposes.

Also, I knew when I went ownt he MFDB route, especially at the top end, that this was not for any kind of monetary gains or investment dreams, this was going to be a quickly depreciating proposition, but that is life in the fast lane.
Ditto. I had a P25+ for similar reasons that complemented my IQ160 and that was so that I wasn't so paranoid about $60k of gear being chained up in my hotel room when I travelled for work with the opportunity to shoot somewhere at the weekend. I sold it to pay for a big trip but now I want another (or P45+) to replace it for long exposure work.

Maybe I'm just getting old and boring but I find less "need" to change "stuff" these days and would rather just get the very best and stick with it or if I do change, change up to something better each time. Not sideways, not backwards, just forwards and up. I bought the IQ as a long term imaging investment as I'll never truly be limited by it's capabilities as an imaging platform. For my Alpa it is a great system.

I also ordered the D800E as my more general travel and universal camera system. No doubt I'll end up using it more than my DF system as it does just about everything well and there are many more glass options plus I still have a shed load of Nikon gear to go with it.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
MFD might be suffering some fallout from release of D800, I see that some people on the Forum have bought the 5D3 from Canon but how many Canon users are considering the shift to Nikon?

I wonder how the marketing chaps and ladies at Canon are appraising the impact of the D800?


Mal
You know that the 5D II killed Nikon for so long. The smart Canon guys won't swap but will just wait until the next iteration. That's what the smart Nikon folks did.

The other flippers just stimulated the economy! (if you're a pro, I respect that different rules apply)
 
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SergeiR

New member
You know that the 5D II killed Nikon for so long.
I had chance to test preproduction 5DII and D700 and pick one.

Still have D700 for "quick and dirty" stuff, or when i need to shoot something super fast, so i don't think it "killed" anything, really. Not to start brand war, just fact of life.
 

pophoto

New member
MFD might be suffering some fallout from release of D800, I see that some people on the Forum have bought the 5D3 from Canon but how many Canon users are considering the shift to Nikon?

I wonder how the marketing chaps and ladies at Canon are appraising the impact of the D800?


Mal
Count me as the opposite, since I've gotten my 5D3, I have sold the last of my main Nikon lenses. While I don't think of myself as loyal to one particular brand, from what I've seen with the D800, is the resolution gain. Its what I shoot most and I still prefer the look from the Canon glass, subjective of course.

However, "Fun with MF images" thread proves it cannot be touched for all the expected gain MF actually provides, objectively of course.

The in between is the world of creativity. However, no one denies the impact of the D800. In fact, when Canon does eventually bring out their high res 35mm, I'll probably be buying. No doubt Nikon got there first, despite Canon showed off their 100MP camera at an expo once!
 
And they probably own iPhones as well.
Yes, but they all are planning for Nokia 808 PureView upgrade.

"The 8-megapixel iPhone 4S, for example, has a 1/3.2-inch type sensor. The 808's in comparison is a 1/1.2-inch type, which is quite a large sensor for a mobile device. (Do the division and you get the approximate diagonal measurement of the sensor.) That's 2.5 times larger than the one Nokia used in its 12-megapixel N8.

Speaking of optics, Nokia's lens choice makes things even more interesting. The Carl Zeiss 5-element lens has one high-index, low-dispersion glass lens instead of being all plastic like other smartphones. It has a large f2.4 aperture with a 26mm focal length for 16:9 and 28mm for 4:3. Nokia claims the combination along with the large sensor size will give you some nice background blur for close-ups; the 808 can focus as close as 6 inches from a subject. (Add in the lossless zoom and you can get very close to what you're shooting and presumably still get great fine detail.)" :thumbs:

And this could be D800 killer!!!
 
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Well, it somewhat depends on the motivation of the seller. If it were a financial emergency then you can understand taking the hit. If it's just someone deciding that they want to spend their money on something else then I would say it's a classic case of a fool and their money being easily parted.
My personal experience is used MFDBs are good for upgrades only. No one wants to make you a decent offer, irrespective of your motivation. If you are a well known photographer / instructor, then you have better chance, otherwise forget it.

Just check LL forum and see how many IQ160s are waiting and since how long they are trying to sell.

And isn't we are supposed to buy from the dealers only, as we need to have the "relationship" to get the support?
 
MFD might be suffering some fallout from release of D800, I see that some people on the Forum have bought the 5D3 from Canon but how many Canon users are considering the shift to Nikon?

I wonder how the marketing chaps and ladies at Canon are appraising the impact of the D800?


Mal
Marketing chaps @ Canon has offered up to $550 Rebate when you buy 5D MK III with additional lens and/or speed light. :)
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
The 'value' of your digital back varies significantly depending upon whether you are upgrading to a new back vs any other sale. That's true and certainly a different model than you'll see with pretty much any other type of camera system. Try getting an attractive trade at a dealer for anything else.

If you want a cross-grade or change down then basically you will be offered a lot lower price for your back compared to the attractive trade-ins available to move up to a brand new higher resolution back.

The prices for private sales are entirely market driven which is basically now softer given that I suspect the enthusiast buyers are now attracted more by other very able, but cheaper offerings. I'm sure that there's a segment of buyers who previously would have considered purchasing a MFDB that are no longer going to make that step any longer. I know at least of one of my DLSR shooting friends who was teetering on the edge of getting a MFDB system but now definitely won't. Also supply isn't an issue any more so I would wager that is another factor too.

The bottom line though is that if you want to sell quickly today on the private market then you're probably not going to get top dollar.
 
One thing for sure I'm not going to rip you off nor is a dealer.
Guy, I have mixed experience with Phase One dealers. Some of them has bad attitude, and unless you are famous, they don't care much.

That's the reason, I don't deal with my local dealers any longer. They try to rip you off, only offer you discount provided you get an official quote from another dealer. Then complaint to Phase One saying why other dealer is offering discount. They don't believe in free market philosophy.

I know another Phase One dealer who had threatened one of the photographer saying that if the photographer discloses any of his personal dissatisfaction in the forum, then he will be hearing from the dealer's lawyer.

Not necessarily everyone will get the same support from the dealers the way you used to get. It depends on overall how much business you are giving it to them. This is true for every business and fact of life.

I hope the arrival of D800 will increase competition and will bring down the "ego factor" of some of these Phase One dealers.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
The 'value' of your digital back varies significantly depending upon whether you are upgrading to a new back vs any other sale. That's true and certainly a different model than you'll see with pretty much any other type of camera system. Try getting an attractive trade at a dealer for anything else.

If you want a cross-grade or change down then basically you will be offered a lot lower price for your back compared to the attractive trade-ins available to move up to a brand new higher resolution back.

The prices for private sales are entirely market driven which is basically now softer given that I suspect the enthusiast buyers are now attracted more by other very able, but cheaper offerings. I'm sure that there's a segment of buyers who previously would have considered purchasing a MFDB that are no longer going to make that step any longer. I know at least of one of my DLSR shooting friends who was teetering on the edge of getting a MFDB system but now definitely won't. Also supply isn't an issue any more so I would wager that is another factor too.

The bottom line though is that if you want to sell quickly today on the private market then you're probably not going to get top dollar.
There's also the challenge of dealers with insider knowledge privately putting their own backs up for sale immediately prior to the announcement of a new product line.
 

gazwas

Active member
I hope the arrival of D800 will increase competition and will bring down the "ego factor" of some of these Phase One dealers.
There's also the challenge of dealers with insider knowledge privately putting their own backs up for sale immediately prior to the announcement of a new product line.
And so we are back to the buy direct from the manufacturer model again.

If the Euro goes pop then this might not be that unrealistic any more.
 
J

jeffacme

Guest
If you are using this for a business and you listen to your accountant, leasing would most likely be the purchase method. Any computer which includes digital backs are virtually worthless after newer technologies supersede it. So if you are a business you would have leased it through one of the dealers that advertise here and forget about the resale value. Your digital processing fees will pay in part for the back every month and after the lease is up, you can just get a new one. After all, if you bought it and took the depreciation on the back and sold it at a profit, you would have to pay capital gains tax - again this is if you listen to your accountant.

So if this individual was a business, the sale price may reflect the depreciated price. If not a business but an individual, if they had the $$$ to buy one in the first place, losing the $9000 is not a big deal for the bragging rights they had.
Leasing incurs significant cost I always expense all cameras and computers in the first year. For MF I upgrade and expense the upgrade cost. For 35 I just sell used buy the new model and expense.
 

atanabe

Member
Leasing incurs significant cost I always expense all cameras and computers in the first year. For MF I upgrade and expense the upgrade cost. For 35 I just sell used buy the new model and expense.
Jeffacme,
As I said in my post, "Listen to your accountant" every business model is going to be different and that is what they are paid to do.
 
J

jeffacme

Guest
Jeffacme,
As I said in my post, "Listen to your accountant" every business model is going to be different and that is what they are paid to do.
In your post you clearly attempt to build a case for leasing which is the most expensive way to own a back and really offers little upside in terms of taxes. I just disagree with the premise.
 

atanabe

Member
In your post you clearly attempt to build a case for leasing which is the most expensive way to own a back and really offers little upside in terms of taxes. I just disagree with the premise.
Jeffacme,
Not going to argue with you on the financing of technology, yes, leasing is expensive, but maybe the only way for some to afford it. A lot of folks don't have $65K cash on hand to purchase a back outright. My point was to explain why someone in business would sell a back at what appears to be a loss. Again, YOUR accountant is the best resource for your business decisions.
 
J

jeffacme

Guest
Jeffacme,
Not going to argue with you on the financing of technology, yes, leasing is expensive, but maybe the only way for some to afford it. A lot of folks don't have $65K cash on hand to purchase a back outright. My point was to explain why someone in business would sell a back at what appears to be a loss. Again, YOUR accountant is the best resource for your business decisions.
It should be obvious that any business lacking the cash flow to make a vital equipment purchase has no business making that purchase in the first place.

Such a studio or photographer should be looking at finding a deal on used gear that fits the cash flow. If you need an accountant to tell you that then
you are in trouble.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
It should be obvious that any business lacking the cash flow to make a vital equipment purchase has no business making that purchase in the first place.

Such a studio or photographer should be looking at finding a deal on used gear that fits the cash flow. If you need an accountant to tell you that then
you are in trouble.
[day job]
The vast majority of businesses - of all types, and of all sizes - fund capital expenditure over time.

The idea that if a business cannot afford to fund the full price of equipment up front, it has no business making that purchase is, quite frankly, preposterous.

If your accountant is advising you otherwise, it's probably time to find a new accountant.
[/day job]
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
It should be obvious that any business lacking the cash flow to make a vital equipment purchase has no business making that purchase in the first place.

Such a studio or photographer should be looking at finding a deal on used gear that fits the cash flow. If you need an accountant to tell you that then
you are in trouble.
Off the top of my head I can think of a half dozen time in 2012 alone where this was demonstrably false for our customers.

Most involve a photographer who had been renting on occasion and landed a major new account which was going to increase their consistent work for which they required a digital back. They didn't expect to need to own a back and didn't just have 20k in uncommitted cash.

They could continue to rent, but the lease payment was significantly less per month, and at the end of the lease (1-3 years) they would own the back. And owning means you can use it for personal work and you know the system's condition/operation.

I'm not arguing that leasing, or purchasing, or renting is right for everyone (or even most people). But I am saying there are many successful business models and even those of us who deal with an large number of different successful photographers every day can't claim with certainty to know every business model that works, or which business model is right for which photographer.

Also your post makes it sound like "buying used" and "leasing" are mutually exclusive when in fact many of the systems we lease are used, pre-owned, or demo systems.
 
For me, solid ground -- MFDB, water underneath -- D800E, kids and stuff around the house -- 5DIII.
May I ask why do you need both D800E & 5DIII? Are you saying D800E is not good for hand held as it requires optimum techniques to get best result and has lees tolerance? Or 5Diii has better video performance?
 
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