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Thread: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    My trusty HR32 just developed a huge problem with image quality and I can't quite figure it out. I'm looking for a few suggestions as I have three week trip to Italy in about 10 days.

    The lens worked fine on my last trip which was in January.I had the opportunity to go to the Phase IQ event in Miami and was just getting around to looking at some images and every image has serious focus problems in all but the exact center of the image. By the edge of the frame it is seriously bad.

    I did some test shots this evening, no wind, focused at infinity and no shift or tilt. Here is a left, center, and right 100% crop from the HR32 f/5.6 at infinity. No shift or tilt, no wind, ISO 50.

    Left:



    Center - not bad.



    Right:



    Even stopped down to f/16 it is still unusable:



    Here is a left center and right from the HR23 at f/5.6 at infinity which you would expect to be softer than the HR32.

    Left:



    Center:



    Right:



    Any ideas?

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Could the rear lens group be lose or starting unscrew? See if you can screw it in from the back. Or does the lens rattle when shaken? Is the lens mount/focuser tight?

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    I checked that, it was slightly loose I hand tightened but it didn't seem to help.

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    Senior Member MaxKißler's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Does the lens sit absolutely precise and tight in the lensboard (or whatever you call that thing on a tech cam) so it is not tilted or in this case swung in any direction?

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    What's bugging me Ed is its on both sides. One side I would think mount itself but looks like a lens issue itself to me. Seems like a element shifted,moved or something of that nature. When you screwed it back in was it on a angle. Long shot idea unscrew it slighty lay flat on its back and screw back down. This is just a guess but seems like something shifted
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Is the issue only seen on the left and right side ?
    What about top and bottom of the image ?
    If you see the issue on all sides , you have a kind of center spot effect .
    Do all lenses look clean ?
    If the issue is only seen on the left and right side , it looks like an extreme swing around the vertical axis . Do you have the T/S feature for that lens ?
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    To me it looks more like motion blur

    The 32 being so heavy can create some torque but perhaps the shutter or the helical mount are loose?
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Senior Member MaxKißler's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    If the issue is only seen on the left and right side , it looks like an extreme swing around the vertical axis . Do you have the T/S feature for that lens ?
    That's also what I suggested above. I guess it deosn't even have to be a really visible swing. Maybe 2mm is enough, not easily visible on your gear but in the final image.

    If it was motion blur the center would be blurred as well doesn't it?

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKißler View Post
    If it was motion blur the center would be blurred as well doesn't it?
    If it's the shutter then it will be a circular motion so the edges will mover more than the centre...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Senior Member MaxKißler's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Thanks Yair, that was new to me..

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    I'll run a few more tests before I overnight it to CI in Atlanta. Fortunately Rene from Cambo is there for an event.

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Ed I will be there also, leave today actually we can look at it together . Its weird for sure
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    If it's the shutter then it will be a circular motion so the edges will mover more than the centre...
    It could very well be the shutter slowed way down on opening for the exposure and in that time you have movement outside the center. It might just be the shutter. Ed run some 1 second and some times shutter speeds so you can get a idea if it slowed down or off its timing
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Could the rear lens group be lose or starting unscrew? See if you can screw it in from the back. Or does the lens rattle when shaken? Is the lens mount/focuser tight?
    I had an issue almost identical to yours and it was, as Shashin suggests, a loose rear element. You might check yours again as you said it was a bit loose.

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    It is strange. I removed the center filter and took two images at f/8. One with the camera upright and one with the back and camera rotated 90 degrees to see if using the vertical axis of the lens was any better - it wasn't.

    The ghosting/smudging direction of the distortion was different but the result was the same. Even at f/8 it is reasonably sharp the center half of the frame in every direction up, down, left, right.

    One thing I know, at f/8 with no movements, the image should be tack sharp edge to edge.

    I'll put full res jpegs on my server after I get the lens overnighted.

    Thanks so much for the input.

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    That what I had suggested to Ed at 545am this morning when I read his email.

    I think it would be productive to check both sides of the speed at 1 sec and also at 1/125 and in the middle to rule out shutter sync with back issues. Usually that creates some bad calibration data and/blurred or smeared pixels.

    I would also take off the one shot and rule that it can be causing some type of timing issues.

    In the past KG has problems with the Truewide at certain shutter speeds because of the timing of the chip being activated. it was due to the copal shutter and avoiding a certain shutter speed in bright daylight had to be used to over come this.

    Testing it in ATL with all the experience in that room at the Cambo Open House this Friday in Atlanta will certainly solve the issue and Guy will be there to report back the findings.


    Good luck.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It could very well be the shutter slowed way down on opening for the exposure and in that time you have movement outside the center. It might just be the shutter. Ed run some 1 second and some times shutter speeds so you can get a idea if it slowed down or off its timing

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    It is strange. I removed the center filter and took two images at f/8. One with the camera upright and one with the back and camera rotated 90 degrees to see if using the vertical axis of the lens was any better - it wasn't.

    The ghosting/smudging direction of the distortion was different but the result was the same. Even at f/8 it is reasonably sharp the center half of the frame in every direction up, down, left, right.

    One thing I know, at f/8 with no movements, the image should be tack sharp edge to edge.

    I'll put full res jpegs on my server after I get the lens overnighted.

    Thanks so much for the input.
    This is sounding more like the shutter to me.
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Thanks Chris yes I will update this thread as I know everyone would like to hear what is going on for sure. Okay off to my flight
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Ed,

    Check every part of the assembly for rigidity -- lens in mount, play in focus helical, mount to body, plate to body and back to plate AND the shift plate to body assembly in the body itself. The 32 has so much mass that if any part of the assembly is loose, you could see motion blur where you would not see it with a lighter lens, e.g. the 23.

    All of the above confirmed tight, I would suggest it's probably a loose internal element which is a tech repair and recalibration. (Note that flying with gear can be hard on it -- the constant vibration can and does shake things loose.)
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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Ed,

    Check every part of the assembly for rigidity -- lens in mount, mount to body, plate to body and back to plate AND the shift plate to body assembly in the body itself. The 32 has so much mass that if any part of the assembly is loose, you could see motion blur where you would not see it with a lighter lens, e.g. the 23.
    Wouldn't motion blur affect the center of the frame as well? The center is tack sharp and immediately starts to degrade as you approach the edge of the frame (especially noticeable at f/4).

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalcameraman View Post
    That what I had suggested to Ed at 545am this morning when I read his email.

    I think it would be productive to check both sides of the speed at 1 sec and also at 1/125 and in the middle to rule out shutter sync with back issues. Usually that creates some bad calibration data and/blurred or smeared pixels.

    I would also take off the one shot and rule that it can be causing some type of timing issues.

    In the past KG has problems with the Truewide at certain shutter speeds because of the timing of the chip being activated. it was due to the copal shutter and avoiding a certain shutter speed in bright daylight had to be used to over come this.

    Testing it in ATL with all the experience in that room at the Cambo Open House this Friday in Atlanta will certainly solve the issue and Guy will be there to report back the findings.


    Good luck.



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    Shutter speed doesn't seem to effect it. I have exposures from 1/500 to 4 seconds with pretty much the same effect. You would think if it was shutter on long exposures the impact would be much less as pronounced.

    Tested with and without the CF as well. same issue.

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Full res jpg of the same scene one with the camera upright and the other camera tilted 90 degrees CCW with the back vertical to show the same scene using horizontal and vertical axis of the lens.

    Aperture f/8, infinity focused at infinity, no tilts or shifts which should be the sweet spot for this lens.

    Camera Upright Back Horizontal
    Camera 90 CCW Back Vertical

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Best way to view the problem is to look at the Hyundai sign on the left and the real estate sign on the right side of the frame.

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Wouldn't motion blur affect the center of the frame as well? The center is tack sharp and immediately starts to degrade as you approach the edge of the frame (especially noticeable at f/4).
    Not if the motion is rocking along one of the centerline axi...
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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Not if the motion is rocking along one of the centerline axi...
    That very well could be. It does not to have more play than any of the other glass but it is heavier. Hopefully it will be minor. If it was motion any input on why stopping down improves it?

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    That very well could be. It does not to have more play than any of the other glass but it is heavier. Hopefully it will be minor. If it was motion any input on why stopping down improves it?
    The additional DoF still mitigates the magnitude of the effect -- note it is still unusably blurred, just blurred "less.".
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Talked about it tonight over dinner with Rene , maybe element movement. But will check tomorrow.
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    This does look very much like an element moved/is stuck. If you set the floating element completely wrong on the RZ67 lenses (which have one) you get a similar effect; sharp center, bad edges. Maybe you could try some shots focused closer and see what happens?

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    That what I love about GetDpi, everyone is always willing to help, just about 24/7.

    Guy has already flown to Atlanta, had dinner with Dave and Rene, and discussed the issue at hand and maybe the approach on how to solve it tomorrow.

    PS. Hope there was something good on the table. grand cru.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Talked about it tonight over dinner with Rene , maybe element movement. But will check tomorrow.

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Due to the silly design of the HR32 being mounted in a tiny Copal 0 shutter for such a large and heavy lens, possibly if the lens has had a slight knock on the front element you might have buckled the shutter. This might explain the sharp centre and smudgy/motion blurred edges.

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Was there a solution to this?

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Yes the lens looks to have shutter damage being pulled out slightly and most likely due to the front element pulling on it in a downward motion. We tested it pretty well tethered along with another 32. We actually had 3 32 on hand. When you look at the lens looks slightly slanted down. Bottom line the very wides of all the Roadies including the 23, 28 which I just switched too and the 32 especially you have to be careful how you pack it. My suggestion is do not keep on tech cam in bag but put it mount down on its own to try and protect it. Now in Cambo mount without TS these lenses have bully bars on them which will help protect them. Actually almost all non TS Cambo mounts have bully bars around the lens. I hate them but hey it's up to you if you keep them on.

    Bottom line this could probably happen to anyone even when being careful it's a big front element on the 32. Even using a lens wrap in bag might not be a bad idea. Unfortunetly here for Ed this happened but my guess a new shutter and it should be fine.
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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    We shall see, it is off to Cambo for repair and installation of t/s

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bottom line the very wides of all the Roadies including the 23, 28 which I just switched too and the 32 especially you have to be careful how you pack it.
    Wow! Unless Ed was totally reckless, this sounds like poor design. As I read through the posts about the Rodenstock wides (retro designs), it keeps me from purchasing one.

    Really a whole lot of money for a whole lot of headaches.

    Ed, please keep us updated about how it all turns out.
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Wow, I am a little surprised by this--Ed does not strike me as a guy who would use a lens to pop open a beer bottle and Rodenstock does not strike me as a company that wouldn't know how to design a lens. Perhaps just bad luck.

    And I am interested in the end of the story too.

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    We have to remember all these tech lenses are fitted into shutters like a Copal 0 so its not like a 35mm or MF lens that goes straight to a camera mount. Its lens, shutter than body so there is always a break point in there. This could happen to any tech lens, the Roadie wide just happen to have big front elements the 32 being the biggest so that lens to shutter can be a weak area compared to standard lenses of 35 or MF. All view camera lenses of 4x5 are the same types of designs with a shutter in the middle. If i would put any weak point in here its really the shutter not the lens itself. The 32 just makes it a bigger darn handle if you know what I mean.
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Understood Guy, but I have been using view camera lenses since the 1980s. The biggest of the wides I have had to handle and transport is a Rodenstock Grandagon-N 90mm f/4.5 for my 4x5" (82 mm filter thread). As I have considerable experience with Copal 0, 1 and 3 shuttered lenses, I have never heard of this. I would be interested in hearing how this lens was stowed and transported if it indeed became misaligned from the shutter in transport.

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    For all we know to Darr the shutter could certainly had a flaw in it to begin with as well, so hard to tell. Also honestly not sure we actually ever truly thought about this either we just go about our business and maybe never realized that weak point in the design of these lenses. The 32 does have a big front element. Now we all know this and maybe one reason I brought up the warning is its something to think about as we work, store and pack these optics. Seriously these are expensive lenses my 28mm being over 7k its a little scary so big reason I came out with my statement too is to give folks a heads up to take care of these optics. Heck i know i throw my Nikon lenses around and my MF lenses over the years. Just going to be more careful here. LOL
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    I hear you Guy! I double pack my lenses and treat them with TLC!!
    We may never really know what happened, but being able to share this info is priceless!
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Agree totally just good info to know.
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Agree totally just good info to know.

    There's no real secret to how this will end up or how it is being handled.

    We personally handed Ed's 32mm to Cambo last Friday. Cambo will repair the lens at no charge. A loaner 32mm is on the way to Ed from Capture Integration's inventory.

    Regarding the issue - the support bars on this lens were removed. In general handling, not to mention any unusual rough use, lenses like this benefit from the support bars. That is why we now provide multi-size LCC kits, so that it is easier to choose to keep the support bars in place. These are very large and heavy elements. They are mounted into helical-based focus mounts with copal shutters, and in this case, it is a challenging combination of large optical elements and a 0 shutter size. This is then mounted into the Cambo Lenspanel (or Alpa, Arca does their own helical mounting, of course). It certainly has nothing to do with design by Cambo - if anything, Cambo recognizes the challenges of the Rodenstock design (heavy optic/small shutter size) - and has provided some additional compensatory support with the support bars.

    We suggest that when shipping these large Rodenstock lenses, when transporting them, it is a good idea to fashion a supportive, padded collar to wrap around the lens barrel.


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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Thanks Steve . Its kind of funny but I hate the support bars and took them off but putting it back on my 28mm and bought one of those Gepe Cable release extensions. The support bars are kind of a pain with cable release maybe this will just solve it and also give me the protection. Actually have to commend Cambo for putting these on the lenses in the first place just stubborn people like me decide to take them off. No offense to Ed or anyone else they are just a pain. Guess its like safe sex. ROTFLMAO
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Steve . Its kind of funny but I hate the support bars and took them off but putting it back on my 28mm and bought one of those Gepe Cable release extensions. The support bars are kind of a pain with cable release maybe this will just solve it and also give me the protection. Actually have to commend Cambo for putting these on the lenses in the first place just stubborn people like me decide to take them off. No offense to Ed or anyone else they are just a pain. Guess its like safe sex. ROTFLMAO

    Yes, and the Gepe Cable extension is something I would have on their anyway, just makes it easier to screw the cable in no matter what.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
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  44. #44
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Aren't those Gepe extensions called "Libby adapters?" http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/168152-post12.html

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Steve, if the Cambo support bars are the way to go with the big Rodies, how do the rest of us get on (Arca, Alpa, Linhof etc)?

    Another reason to stick with the smaller Schneider's IMO where possible. What we need is for Schneider to redesign their 35mm to be a little more IQ180/Credo80 friendly.

  46. #46
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Actually, the support bars are worthless on this lens as the bars don't extend to the rim of the lens. It is just too big and adding a CF it sticks out almost an inch. After the lens went back to CI I went through the last year of images and spot checked them. They had been trending softer on the edges since I received the lens. It started showing up on wide shifts but I thought it was just me or edge softness. It was not much of a problem because I usually stop down to f/11.

    On my trip to Hawaii I shot f/5.6 from the helicopter for a faster shutter speed. The edges without shift we soft enough I had to do some extra sharpening. I suspect whatever problem it has was trending and got to the point where it went totally south.

    I have a pretty protected compartments in my travel pack but I did routinely pack the lens on the camera. It is conceivable that it got knocked but I am pretty careful with my equipment.

  47. #47
    Member LonnaTucker's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Actually, the support bars are worthless on this lens as the bars don't extend to the rim of the lens. It is just too big and adding a CF it sticks out almost an inch. After the lens went back to CI I went through the last year of images and spot checked them. They had been trending softer on the edges since I received the lens. It started showing up on wide shifts but I thought it was just me or edge softness. It was not much of a problem because I usually stop down to f/11.

    On my trip to Hawaii I shot f/5.6 from the helicopter for a faster shutter speed. The edges without shift we soft enough I had to do some extra sharpening. I suspect whatever problem it has was trending and got to the point where it went totally south.

    I have a pretty protected compartments in my travel pack but I did routinely pack the lens on the camera. It is conceivable that it got knocked but I am pretty careful with my equipment.

    This is really nothing new and bully bars can be helpful, but not in all situations. While it's convenient (in more ways than one, I know) to keep the lens on the body when transporting the camera, I wouldn't recommend doing that in the future.

    Also, carrying the camera/lens mounted to a tripod and carried over the shoulder allows a sort of ‘hammer’ effect on the lower side of the shutter with large front element lenses. This problem can be cumulative and may not show up for a while but if you carry your equipment over the shoulder it will. 8x10 large format photographers using optics with large front element lenses were usually aware of this and took precautions.

    With the higher requirements of digital photography for precision alignment, this is a very real problem for todays image makers. The latest wide angles with substantial coverage have hefty front elements in a Copal 0, putting more weight out front which increase the leverage and ‘hammering’ weight on the glass mounting rings of the shutter.

    So, don't carry your outfit over the shoulder, and do not pack these lenses too tightly. Also, set your camera/lens/tripod down gently when setting up or moving to a new spot to work.

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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Guy

    Did you decide to get Rodenstock 28? I thought from your review of the Schneider & Rodenstock 28's you were keeping the Schneider since you could get greater shift.

    Thanks
    Paul

  49. #49
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    The Rodenstock front element issues seem to be a good wake up call for all technical camera shooters. I have a very slight bit of movement in my 90 HR-W that would seem to fit with the general copal shutter warnings here. Luckily it seems like there's no distortion that I've seen yet but I suspect gravity and handling have loosened the central mount at the shutter since it does seem to pivot around the that fulcrum point. I'm waiting for feedback from Alpa/Rodenstock to find out whether to send it in but for now my dealer recommended holding off until I see something otherwise it could be away for an extended holiday. I guess that looking on the bright side for now I'm getting 0.001 degrees of tilt on my Alpa for free!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  50. #50
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously strange HR32 problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Guy

    Did you decide to get Rodenstock 28? I thought from your review of the Schneider & Rodenstock 28's you were keeping the Schneider since you could get greater shift.

    Thanks
    Paul
    Yes I just switched over as much as I wanted the SK I kept coming up with this very slight magenta cast in the upper right side that just would not clean up. We tried testing my back and another back but the weather was pretty overcast and did not show up. I have a feeling it could possible be a calibration issue but I just decided to just switch it out and end the battle. They are really both great lenses but the roadie never had any magenta at all so I am limited to 7mm but I can deal with that. I could always tilt camera up from there and use keystone tool to fix beyond 7mm. I got the CF also which works nice.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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