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Thread: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

  1. #1
    Super Duper
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    some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Can anybody who has used both maybe comment on:
    - the mirror-slap (I once had a 645 AF and found the mirror-slap real bad)
    - shutter delay
    - AF-speed
    - Viewfinder (size/brightness)

    From reading several threads I get the impression that the Hassy might be the faster andmore responsive system?
    I understand the difference of the shutter-systems.

    I am back in my MF-evaluation.
    Still also torn between P30+/H3DII31 and P25+/H3DII39, but I now tend towards the 31MP-solutions because I think I would want the faster speed and better high-ISO.
    Want to shoot people in their surrounding and also sometimes indoors, including kids. Also landscapes.
    The bad thing is that I have now 2 offers for H3DII39 which are even a bit lower in price than a new H3dII31-kit.
    I think I could live without T/S-posibility (I thinkkk...)

    I kind of thought to wait for Leica-system, but it will be min. 6-8 months until they are available, and then I would not want to play beta-tester - so another few month until I would be ready to buy. Therefore I think I dont want to wait that long.

    Cheers, Tom

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    There is a firmware update coming for the new Phase One body very soon but it does address several issues but I can't really talk about them at the moment. Just something to keep in mind but it certainly will improve the performance.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Tom,

    I have both and like both, so hopefully this is unbiased.

    mirror slap is better on the AFDIII body vs. my H3DII - although you can program a delay on the Hassy to help

    shutter lag is better on the Hassy

    AF speeds are similiar - with the edge in both speed and accuracy in difficult situations going to the Hassy

    VF - the Hassy wins this easily

    IMHO the Hassy has the better camera body - The phase back is faster than the Hassy and has one more stop of ISO. - Capture One software is faster than Phocus. - Phocus is better at shooting tethered. - Image quality at the end of the day is basically identical.

    Phase is the way to go if you want a fast focal plane shutter. They plan to also have a leaf shutter solution in the future, but you will have to send your body back to be upgraded.

    Hassy is the way to go if you want a leaf shutter system to do high speed flash sync.

    I currently have both, because I need a focal plane & a leaf shutter body.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Member Paul Claesson Hasselblad's Avatar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    "mirror slap is better on the AFDIII body vs. my H3DII - although you can program a delay on the Hassy to help"

    There is a custom option #30 on the H3DII camera to set one of the following: None, 25ms, 50ms, 100ms and 200ms delay.

    Once you depress the shutter button the capture is initiated, the mirror goes up for the specified millisecond delay (this allows any vibration to settle) and capture is completed.

    Regrading firmware updating: Hasselblad has included firmware updating for the digital magazine and Hx/HxD camera from Flexcolor since 2005 and this facility will also be included in the upcoming Phocus 1.1 release.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Hi Paul,

    Welcome to the forum. I do have my body programmed to the 50 delay to help that out. The Hassy body does give you this option, while the Phase/Mamiya does not.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Super Duper
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Thank you Ray and Paul!
    Its a difficult decision and now a third system (Hy6) comes also into play for me...
    I know the best thing would be to test them myself, but this would take a lot of time and effort for me-noteasy if one is not a pro with all the contacts etc.
    Something which would make my decision for the Hassy easier if there was a "classical" weist level finder available. (I know - no option at all for the Mamyia).
    So if I had to design a new system I would suggest a MF-body, with focal plane shutter, exchangeable viewfinder, and leaf-shutter lenses.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Thank you Ray and Paul!
    Its a difficult decision and now a third system (Hy6) comes also into play for me...
    I know the best thing would be to test them myself, but this would take a lot of time and effort for me-noteasy if one is not a pro with all the contacts etc.
    Something which would make my decision for the Hassy easier if there was a "classical" weist level finder available. (I know - no option at all for the Mamyia).
    So if I had to design a new system I would suggest a MF-body, with focal plane shutter, exchangeable viewfinder, and leaf-shutter lenses.
    Hello Tom,

    I think it is all a matter of priorities and deciding (by looking at the specs for now) which system ticks more boxes on your list.

    I think that if waist level finder, fast capture rate and responsiveness are high on your list, then you should consider the AFi-II 6 or 7. The 7 is more expensive however it adds a tilting screen (works beautifully with the waist level finder) and a rotating sensor.

    The AFi-II 6, I believe, at 1 fps, is the fastest high-res MF system currently in production.

    Firmware updates for both back and body are done automatically via Leaf Capture on both Mac and PC.

    Good luck

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Tom,

    I can't comment on the Leaf or Sinar options as I really haven't used them much to date.

    The Hassy does have a waist level finder available for about $300. Only issue is that it doesn't have an exposure meter like the 90 degree finder does.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Ray

    To the best of my knowledge no Hassy WLF has ever had metering except perhaps on the 200 series. So I don't think the H3D is different from the legacy 500's. If I am wrong about this please correct me.

    Do any of the systems that don't have a focal plane shutter have this feature?

    Which focal plane systems have a WLF?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    Woody

  10. #10
    andershald
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    There is a Waist Level Finder for the Contax 645.

    Anders

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Ray

    To the best of my knowledge no Hassy WLF has ever had metering except perhaps on the 200 series. So I don't think the H3D is different from the legacy 500's. If I am wrong about this please correct me.

    Do any of the systems that don't have a focal plane shutter have this feature?

    Which focal plane systems have a WLF?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    Woody
    The AFi offers 3 different finders and as the metering (and its display) is in the body you are not losing anything. Moreover, the WLF is actually useable when shooting verticals...

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Super Duper
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    What you are losing compared H3IID to older Hasselblads is the "foldable" waist level finder.
    Yes, as far as I know the Hy6 is the only camera which would offer metering when using the WLF.
    I find the "form and function factor" of the Hy6 very tempting.

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by harmsr View Post
    Tom,

    Phase is the way to go if you want a fast focal plane shutter. They plan to also have a leaf shutter solution in the future, but you will have to send your body back to be upgraded.

    Best,

    Ray
    It sucks that you have to send it in for firmware updates (if you wan the improvements of whatever new firmware comes out, e.g. the leaf shutter lenses). But it is a next-day turn around time so your downtime is minimal, and its a free service.

    The mirror slap delay on the hassy body is a great feature.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
    Personal Portfolio

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by andershald View Post
    There is a Waist Level Finder for the Contax 645.

    Anders
    Darn shame that Contax is gone from the scene. It would appear they had the feature set that most folks wanted (and still apparently want)

    Woody

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    What you are losing compared H3IID to older Hasselblads is the "foldable" waist level finder.
    Yes, as far as I know the Hy6 is the only camera which would offer metering when using the WLF.
    I find the "form and function factor" of the Hy6 very tempting.
    Isn't the HY6 a focal plane shutter body?

    Woody

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    I use both and prefer the H body. The mirror delay feature is very useful in Hasselblad. The H viewfinder is excellent - far better than Mamiya 645/ Contax 645. the Hy6 WL viewfiner is excellent. Miriror slap must be a term that was coined by 35mm SLR shooters when first confronted by the sounds that a Mamiya RZ makes. The RZ has the best WL viewfinder and the loudest big bang mirror slap sound one could ask for - I love it. If you are concerned abotu vibrations impacting on your shot - use an Alpa. Contax make the quietest shutter - it is very nice.

    .

  17. #17
    jmvdigital
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Isn't the HY6 a focal plane shutter body?

    Woody
    I don't believe it is. Either way, it's maximum is 1/1000s, where as the 645 is 1/4000s, and Hassy at 1/800s.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Hy6 is a leaf shutter only Contax and Mamiya are focal plane
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    plasticimage
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    [QUOTE=Paul Claesson Hasselblad;53844]"mirror slap is better on the AFDIII body vs. my H3DII - although you can program a delay on the Hassy to help"

    There is a custom option #30 on the H3DII camera to set one of the following: None, 25ms, 50ms, 100ms and 200ms delay.

    Once you depress the shutter button the capture is initiated, the mirror goes up for the specified millisecond delay (this allows any vibration to settle) and capture is completed.

    ---

    That's very interesting. I had always assumed that the 'extra mirror delay' also delayed the shutter from firing, but I guess this is not the case, and would not induce any shutter lag.

    I had never heard a detailed description of this function until now, and shows the power of having direct communication with the brand. Thank you.

  20. #20
    thsinar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    To be precise:

    - the Sinar Hy6 max shutter speed is 1/1000th
    - this is ALSO the flash sync speed

    - the 1/4000th is the max shutter speed, not flash sync.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by jmvdigital View Post
    I don't believe it is. Either way, it's maximum is 1/1000s, where as the 645 is 1/4000s, and Hassy at 1/800s.

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Isn't the HY6 a focal plane shutter body?

    Woody
    Woody,
    You may have been thinking of the capability of the Sinar system to use a focal plane shutter body like the Contax 645 which is what I do. At the present time it seems to me to offer the best of both worlds if you've decided (or are constrained to) live with one sensor.

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    Member Paul Claesson Hasselblad's Avatar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Something which would make my decision for the Hassy easier if there was a "classical" weist level finder available. (I know - no option at all for the Mamyia).
    So if I had to design a new system I would suggest a MF-body, with focal plane shutter, exchangeable viewfinder, and leaf-shutter lenses.
    Hasselblad does offer the HVM waistlevel viewfinder for the H system at a very reasonable price.

    The Hasselblad V & H systems have always been modular; interchangeable viewfinders, lenses, film & digital magazines. Regarding focal plane shutters and leaf shutter lenses, Hasselblads been there, done that with the 200 series system. A focal plane shutter with 1/2000 top shutter speed for use with our F & FE lenses and when the focal plane shutter was dis-engaged you could use the central shutter in all C, CF, CFi and CFE lenses.
    The best of both worlds.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Hi Paul and welcome to the forum.

    Whilst your 200 series cameras and F/FE lenses are great as are the CFi and CFE lenses - if you wish to use these lenses on a 200 series body - you need to use a CFV/CFV11 back and lovely as they are - you are restricted to a 1.5X crop.

    If one chooses to use a different back with a V mount one is restricted to a 1/90th shutter speed - is this correct?

    A few people I know are actually using Contax or Mamiya bodies in order to be able to use the F/FE/CFE lenses they so admire - without crop and without the shutter speed limitation.

    I suspect that that is why people are asking for a focal plane body from Hasselblad - which can use their faster F/FE series lenses - somethign we cant do with the H series body dediaetd to Leaf or C/CFi/CFE type lenses via adaptor. I guess teh F/FE lenses are so good that many of us wuld liek the ability to use them on a hassebald body with a large chip.

    pete

  24. #24
    jingq
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    hi Paul, any plans for the creation of a H-mount body in the style of a 500 or 200 series camera?
    With the ability to use the H lenses, and CF and F/FE lenses with an adapter such as the one offered for the H camera already

    That would give the maximum possibility to photographers, who can get both a H body and a Hy6 style Hasselblad body and use the same back

    EDIT:I realised that the larger mirror would be a problem...argh if only there was some way around this. Been shooting with a 201 recently and absolutely love it love it.
    Last edited by jingq; 17th October 2008 at 23:43.

  25. #25
    Member Paul Claesson Hasselblad's Avatar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Hi Paul and welcome to the forum.

    Whilst your 200 series cameras and F/FE lenses are great as are the CFi and CFE lenses - if you wish to use these lenses on a 200 series body - you need to use a CFV/CFV11 back and lovely as they are - you are restricted to a 1.5X crop.

    If one chooses to use a different back with a V mount one is restricted to a 1/90th shutter speed - is this correct?

    A few people I know are actually using Contax or Mamiya bodies in order to be able to use the F/FE/CFE lenses they so admire - without crop and without the shutter speed limitation.

    I suspect that that is why people are asking for a focal plane body from Hasselblad - which can use their faster F/FE series lenses - somethign we cant do with the H series body dediaetd to Leaf or C/CFi/CFE type lenses via adaptor. I guess teh F/FE lenses are so good that many of us wuld liek the ability to use them on a hassebald body with a large chip.

    pete
    Hi Pete,

    Option 1
    With a modified 200 series camera you can use the F/FE lenses without a synch cable with CFV/CFVII, communication is handled via the Databus (4 gold contacts) on the rear of the 200 camera and CFV/CFVII back. Flash synch will be 1/90 second.

    Option 2
    With a 200 series camera you can use the F/FE lenses a with CFxx and use a Kapture Group single shot cable. Flash synch will be 1/90 second.

    Option 3
    Dis-engage the focal plane shutter on the 200 camera by setting shutter speed ring to C position and attach a C, CF, CFi, CFE lens. Attach a flash synch cable from lens to CFV/CFVII. Menu on CFV/CFVII must be set for "Flash synch"
    Flash synch is now available to 1/500 second.
    You can use any of our products (CFVII, CFII39, CFII39MS) with this configuration.

    The H system was 7 years of planning, designing, implementation before becoming a reality in September 2002. Hasselblad made many decisions over the course of those years regarding what would be the most important features to include in an entirely product. Fast flash synch to 1/800 second was deemed very important and also allowed Hasselblad the maintain the tradition of utilizing a Central shutter within their lenses.


    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Claesson Hasselblad View Post
    Hi Pete,

    Option 3
    Dis-engage the focal plane shutter on the 200 camera by setting shutter speed ring to C position and attach a C, CF, CFi, CFE lens. Attach a flash synch cable from lens to CFV/CFVII. Menu on CFV/CFVII must be set for "Flash synch"
    Flash synch is now available to 1/500 second.
    You can use any of our products (CFVII, CFII39, CFII39MS) with this configuration.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA
    Paul,

    I thought the 200 series could be modified only for the CFV/CFVII? More info please!

    Kumar

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    Member Paul Claesson Hasselblad's Avatar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by FromJapan View Post
    Paul,

    I thought the 200 series could be modified only for the CFV/CFVII? More info please!

    Kumar
    Hi Kumar

    The 200 Series that has been modified by Hasselblad is specific to the CFV/CFVII backs.

    Option 3
    Dis-engage the focal plane shutter on the 200 camera by setting shutter speed ring to C position and attach a C, CF, CFi, CFE lens. Attach a flash synch cable from lens to CFV/CFVII. Menu on CFV/CFVII must be set for "Flash synch"
    Flash synch is now available to 1/500 second.
    You can use any of our products (CFVII, CFII39, CFII39MS) with this configuration.

    This configuration in option 3 means that you will use the central shutter in the C type lens, the focal plane shutter is dis-engage and operates as an auxiliary curtain, the camera is essentially behaving like a 500 series camera and will work with the following backs: CFV, CFVII, CF22, CF22MS, CF39, CF39MS provided you connect the flash cable from the lens to the CFxx back and set the Menu in the back to Flash synch

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Hi Paul and thanks for yoru feedback,

    there is no doubt that teh H series camera and lenses deliver great studio shooting capability because ofteh high flash sync - thi sis the reson why I am happy to own a pretty extensive H seris kit.

    My question however specificaly related to the use of F/FE series lenses. I know I can use my CFE lenses via CF adaptor on my H series body - it is the non leaf shutter lenses - the F/FE series lenses that I am concerned about here.

    I am considering purchasing a 203/205TCC camera to shoot film with these lenses and also to hopefully shoot with a 40 megapixel back as I do not wish to use a 1.5X crop factor CFV/CFV11.



    My question are :

    1. How do I conenct a non CFV digital back to a 203 or 205?

    2. What shutter speeds can I use with the 203/205 if I am using a V mount digi back ?

    3. Am I 'only' looking at a 1/90th flash sync limitation when I am using flash - or is this the fastest shutter speed I can use at any time?

    I would appreciate an answer to this question as this will determine wether I buy a 203/205 body to use with my F/FE lenses; and finally,

    4. Do Hasselblad still supprt repairs to these bodies?

    Thank you for your help
    Pete

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    Member Paul Claesson Hasselblad's Avatar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Hi Paul and thanks for yoru feedback,

    there is no doubt that teh H series camera and lenses deliver great studio shooting capability because ofteh high flash sync - thi sis the reson why I am happy to own a pretty extensive H seris kit.

    My question however specificaly related to the use of F/FE series lenses. I know I can use my CFE lenses via CF adaptor on my H series body - it is the non leaf shutter lenses - the F/FE series lenses that I am concerned about here.

    I am considering purchasing a 203/205TCC camera to shoot film with these lenses and also to hopefully shoot with a 40 megapixel back as I do not wish to use a 1.5X crop factor CFV/CFV11.

    Thank you for your help
    Pete
    My question are :

    1. How do I conenct a non CFV digital back to a 203 or 205?
    Option 2
    With a 200 series camera you can use the F/FE lenses with as an example a CF39 and use a Kapture Group single shot cable. Flash synch will be 1/90 second.

    2. What shutter speeds can I use with the 203/205 if I am using a V mount digi back ?
    32 seconds to 1/2000 second.

    3. Am I 'only' looking at a 1/90th flash sync limitation when I am using flash - or is this the fastest shutter speed I can use at any time?
    Yes, up to 1/90 second top flash synch speed when using focal plane shutter and F/FE lenses.

    4. Do Hasselblad still supprt repairs to these bodies?
    Absolutely. 201F, 202FA, 203FE, 205TCC and 205FCC.

    the Address is:
    Hasselblad USA
    333 New Rd., Suite 5
    Parsippany, NJ 07054
    Att: Service dept.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

    www.kapturegroup.com

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Paul,

    Just to clarify:

    1. Hasselblad will modify a 200 series camera to accept the CFV/CFVII back, which will work with F type lenses. Will such a camera be usable with another CF back as well?
    2. Any 200/2000 series camera will work with C type lenses and any CF back WITHOUT the camera having to be modified.
    3. Any 200/2000 series camera will work with F type lenses and any CF back WITHOUT the camera having to be modified, but WITH the use of a KaptureGroup OneShot Release.
    If so, what is the point of the conversion mentioned in 1 above?

    Kumar

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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Hi Paul and thanks for yoru feedback,

    there is no doubt that teh H series camera and lenses deliver great studio shooting capability because ofteh high flash sync - thi sis the reson why I am happy to own a pretty extensive H seris kit.

    My question however specificaly related to the use of F/FE series lenses. I know I can use my CFE lenses via CF adaptor on my H series body - it is the non leaf shutter lenses - the F/FE series lenses that I am concerned about here.

    I am considering purchasing a 203/205TCC camera to shoot film with these lenses and also to hopefully shoot with a 40 megapixel back as I do not wish to use a 1.5X crop factor CFV/CFV11.



    My question are :

    1. How do I conenct a non CFV digital back to a 203 or 205?

    2. What shutter speeds can I use with the 203/205 if I am using a V mount digi back ?

    3. Am I 'only' looking at a 1/90th flash sync limitation when I am using flash - or is this the fastest shutter speed I can use at any time?

    I would appreciate an answer to this question as this will determine wether I buy a 203/205 body to use with my F/FE lenses; and finally,

    4. Do Hasselblad still supprt repairs to these bodies?

    Thank you for your help
    Pete

  32. #32
    Member Paul Claesson Hasselblad's Avatar
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    Re: some more H3DII vs phase645 questions

    Just to clarify:

    1. Hasselblad will modify a 200 series camera to accept the CFV/CFVII back, which will work with F type lenses.
    Yes
    Will such a camera be usable with another CF back as well?
    Yes,
    Option 2
    With a 200 series camera you can use the F/FE lenses a with CF and use a Kapture Group single shot cable. www.kapturegroup.com

    2. Any 200/2000 series camera will work with C type lenses and any CF back WITHOUT the camera having to be modified.
    Yes,
    Option 3
    Dis-engage the focal plane shutter on the 200 camera by setting shutter speed ring to C position and attach a C, CF, CFi, CFE lens. Attach a flash synch cable from lens to CF, CFII, CFV/CFVII. Menu on CF must be set for "Flash synch"
    Flash synch is now available to 1/500 second.

    3. Any 200/2000 series camera will work with F type lenses and any CF back WITHOUT the camera having to be modified, but WITH the use of a KaptureGroup OneShot Release.
    Yes,
    Option 2
    With a 200 series camera you can use the F/FE lenses a with CF and use a Kapture Group single shot cable.

    If so, what is the point of the conversion mentioned in 1 above?
    By modifiying the 200 camera you eliminate the need of using a flash synch cable from lens to back with C type lenses or by using a third party one shot cable release. Try hand holding the camera, focusing, composing and then releasing the camera via cable release. Of course if using a tripod then i see no problem.
    shoot on!

    Kumar

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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