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MFD for Art Repro?

Egor

Member
-Shashin: what do you use to profile your cameras? I currently use Datacolor Spydercheck, but am open to better solutions.
I have an old Sinar P 4x5 I could get out of mothballs, what advantages are there to be had by investing in a dedicated large-format repro camera over just using my existing Sinar P? I must say that I like the idea of the slr Mamiya just for ease of use and easier to train.
Agreed that tone and color reproduction is most important thing, I just always assumed that was a product of DR and sensor sensitivity, similar to PMT scanners like my Tango.

-Yair: thank you for the info and will contact. Workflow in my studios is a practical compromise of capture stations using Canon dslr's, calibrated IMac 27inch i7's, and Adobe CR using Datacolor checkers. Integration of C1 into this workflow for just 1 new system should be easy, and I may switch all stations to C1 after for consistency.
Looking at my test files posted, do you believe the Aptus back can match the tonal range and accuracy I am getting from the BL6K? I am aware that the Scanback and Hassy MS systems capture all three colors independently. The operator for the Scanback was a very experienced photographer with that equipment and software, whereas my two MFD tests were done by me over a few hours demo and no experience with these systems.

-Guy/Yair/Steve/Lance: Can you confirm that the P65 is FW400 only? What about the recommended Aptus backs? LiveView capabilities?
Right now my main focus is on art repro, but everything and everyone does double and even triple duties in my studios. So I see using the new back for film and print scanning; as well as tabletop and macro up to 3:1. So am considering the Mamiya 120 Macro as well as the Schneider T/S. Because of the limited LV capabilities, I like the idea of an AF lens that gets me close enough so that LV is just for staging. But those are my two lens choices based on my limited observations so far.

Thanks again for all the info, everybody, very helpful and I have lots of experienced help here, for sure!
 

lance_schad

Workshop Member
-Shashin: what do you use to profile your cameras? I currently use Datacolor Spydercheck, but am open to better solutions.
I have an old Sinar P 4x5 I could get out of mothballs, what advantages are there to be had by investing in a dedicated large-format repro camera over just using my existing Sinar P? I must say that I like the idea of the slr Mamiya just for ease of use and easier to train.
Agreed that tone and color reproduction is most important thing, I just always assumed that was a product of DR and sensor sensitivity, similar to PMT scanners like my Tango.

-Yair: thank you for the info and will contact. Workflow in my studios is a practical compromise of capture stations using Canon dslr's, calibrated IMac 27inch i7's, and Adobe CR using Datacolor checkers. Integration of C1 into this workflow for just 1 new system should be easy, and I may switch all stations to C1 after for consistency.
Looking at my test files posted, do you believe the Aptus back can match the tonal range and accuracy I am getting from the BL6K? I am aware that the Scanback and Hassy MS systems capture all three colors independently. The operator for the Scanback was a very experienced photographer with that equipment and software, whereas my two MFD tests were done by me over a few hours demo and no experience with these systems.

-Guy/Yair/Steve/Lance: Can you confirm that the P65 is FW400 only? What about the recommended Aptus backs? LiveView capabilities?
Right now my main focus is on art repro, but everything and everyone does double and even triple duties in my studios. So I see using the new back for film and print scanning; as well as tabletop and macro up to 3:1. So am considering the Mamiya 120 Macro as well as the Schneider T/S. Because of the limited LV capabilities, I like the idea of an AF lens that gets me close enough so that LV is just for staging. But those are my two lens choices based on my limited observations so far.

Thanks again for all the info, everybody, very helpful and I have lots of experienced help here, for sure!
Eric,

The P65+ is FW400 and the Aptus II series is FW 800.

The Schneider 120 T/S is an all manual lens, the PhaseOne Mamiya Lens is available as a MF model and AF as well.

Both the Phase One and Leaf offer Live Preview being tethered to the computer through Capture One, the Leaf can also be tethered via Leaf Capture as well.

Lance (email me)
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
-Shashin: what do you use to profile your cameras? I currently use Datacolor Spydercheck, but am open to better solutions.
I have an old Sinar P 4x5 I could get out of mothballs, what advantages are there to be had by investing in a dedicated large-format repro camera over just using my existing Sinar P? I must say that I like the idea of the slr Mamiya just for ease of use and easier to train.
Agreed that tone and color reproduction is most important thing, I just always assumed that was a product of DR and sensor sensitivity, similar to PMT scanners like my Tango.

-Yair: thank you for the info and will contact. Workflow in my studios is a practical compromise of capture stations using Canon dslr's, calibrated IMac 27inch i7's, and Adobe CR using Datacolor checkers. Integration of C1 into this workflow for just 1 new system should be easy, and I may switch all stations to C1 after for consistency.
Looking at my test files posted, do you believe the Aptus back can match the tonal range and accuracy I am getting from the BL6K? I am aware that the Scanback and Hassy MS systems capture all three colors independently. The operator for the Scanback was a very experienced photographer with that equipment and software, whereas my two MFD tests were done by me over a few hours demo and no experience with these systems.

-Guy/Yair/Steve/Lance: Can you confirm that the P65 is FW400 only? What about the recommended Aptus backs? LiveView capabilities?
Right now my main focus is on art repro, but everything and everyone does double and even triple duties in my studios. So I see using the new back for film and print scanning; as well as tabletop and macro up to 3:1. So am considering the Mamiya 120 Macro as well as the Schneider T/S. Because of the limited LV capabilities, I like the idea of an AF lens that gets me close enough so that LV is just for staging. But those are my two lens choices based on my limited observations so far.

Thanks again for all the info, everybody, very helpful and I have lots of experienced help here, for sure!



Eric -

Keep in mind the Schneider 120mm T/S has a longer minimum focus distance compared to either the Phase/Mamiya 120mm AF or Manual Focus Lens (2.8' vs 1.3').


Steve Hendrix
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
As others have mentioned, the back is only the start. Don't expect to get there with canned profiles and/or curves. So far I've got to about 90% tonal/colour accuracy with my Aptus II-8 for repro work. The ability to get a better tonal response and colour accuracy using custom profiles and curves is beyond my current ability though I'm looking into options, hopefully not quite necessary for the work I'm doing. We'll see, the boss who although he has never taken a single photo in his life, has a pixel peeping ability which is beyond anything I have ever managed myself over a decade of professional pixel peeping :D.
 

yaya

Active member
-Yair: thank you for the info and will contact. Workflow in my studios is a practical compromise of capture stations using Canon dslr's, calibrated IMac 27inch i7's, and Adobe CR using Datacolor checkers. Integration of C1 into this workflow for just 1 new system should be easy, and I may switch all stations to C1 after for consistency.
Looking at my test files posted, do you believe the Aptus back can match the tonal range and accuracy I am getting from the BL6K? I am aware that the Scanback and Hassy MS systems capture all three colors independently. The operator for the Scanback was a very experienced photographer with that equipment and software, whereas my two MFD tests were done by me over a few hours demo and no experience with these systems.
I did a test last year at one of the universities in London, comparing an Anagramm Production2 scanning back (312MP) to an Aptus-II 12, using the same Linhof RD-1 body and Rodenstock 180mm lens

IMO the results from the back were better than from the scanning back with better DR and tonality of all the colours and less noise and it was also sharper. When you think about it, these scanning backs use line sensors that are 12-15 year old design and we're comparing them do the latest CCD and digital technology

-Guy/Yair/Steve/Lance: Can you confirm that the P65 is FW400 only? What about the recommended Aptus backs? LiveView capabilities?
Right now my main focus is on art repro, but everything and everyone does double and even triple duties in my studios. So I see using the new back for film and print scanning; as well as tabletop and macro up to 3:1. So am considering the Mamiya 120 Macro as well as the Schneider T/S. Because of the limited LV capabilities, I like the idea of an AF lens that gets me close enough so that LV is just for staging. But those are my two lens choices based on my limited observations so far.
Thanks again for all the info, everybody, very helpful and I have lots of experienced help here, for sure!
The older Aptus backs use FW400 and the newer Aptus S and Aptus-II backs use FW800. All are compatible with FW400 or 800 if you use the correct cable.

The tethered Live View on the Aptus-II in combination with Leaf Capture is considered to be the best in MF. This is not a CMOS-based DSLR mind you, but it does a very good job in a repro environment. For still life it also works well as you can drop an overlay in with the required layout

If you go down the view/ repro camera route with electronic shutters (Schneider or Rollei) then you control them remotely and capture directly from Live View, the Software will close the shutter/ aperture and will trigger the camera for you.

If you're on Macs and employ ACR/ Bridge workflow then you can use Leaf Capture for CAPTURE and have the images come up in Bridge

Worth a demo I believe
 

jlm

Workshop Member
maybe this will be useful:
versalab

if you can lightly touch the surface, maybe with a paper in between, this will get your film plane parallel to the subject plane quite easily
 

Egor

Member
Jim, thanks, that looks a lot less expensive than zip align. Problem is, I rarely get that precise about being exactly parallel to flat art. I do due diligence and all and try and get close enough, then shoot at least F11 and fix any perspective errors in photoslop. Many of the originals I shoot, especially the big ones, are not very flat anyway. These things are stretched on wood, and they warp and twist. The painting shown in my post there was over 5inches difference between the peaks and valleys! :)
 

lance_schad

Workshop Member
Egor,

You and others may find this link useful. It is a comparison from a while ago between an Anagram scan back and the Leaf Aptus II12 just after its release, prior to the IQ180 shipping that I stumbled upon.

Comparison


Lance (email me)
 

EH21

Member
A portion of my work is art repro and I have the Leaf 80mp back and can tell you the area where the 80mp backs win is in workflow. It's much faster to shoot a single frame. I have convinced myself by looking at my own files that for ultimate image quality the 9um microstep backs from hasselblad and sinar are the best. I also had a CF-39 multishot back that also was really quite good. Multi-shot reveals texture and feel - not just detail. Unfortunately it takes about 20 times as long to shoot one of those backs in microstep mode as the Leaf 80 and sometimes it takes a few tries if something moves or shakes. I have been doing a double sharpen of the leaf files - first in C1, then another pass in LR with detail slider up close to 100 to get more feel to the files. I've not used a scanning back for my own work but have tested one at another photographers studio. I wouldn't want one for the same workflow reasons.
 

Egor

Member
EH21: yes, workflow and ROI are high on my list of priorities as well. I tested a Hasselblad 200mp MS system in here as well. The results were outstanding, but unfortunately, not enough to justify the increase in workflow time$ needed. I figure if I am going to go that route, might as well go with the even more laborious scan back route. We don't get too many of these things in per week, but it is growing as a market segment.
ROI is different for every small biz on a given piece of equipment. For us, I am leaning toward 2nd tier MFD used, like a 60MP mamiya sytem (Leaf, Phase...etc) because it will put us above the "fray" enough to return the investment before 35mm dslr tech catches up.
My client artists need a reason to have me shoot their artwork over themselves or their neighbor's kid with a Nikon D800. Know what I mean?
That having been said, I will test the new Nikon under studio enviro and multistich techniques we have developed to see how close it gets. I mean, come on, the ROi for us on the Nikon is measured in weeks, not years :)
 
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Egor

Member
This test was over a week ago, but thought I would add to my posts.
I needed to produce a billboard campaign for a major footwear company.
Normally I would shoot this job with a Canon5d2 and stitch, or shoot film and drumscan in studio on our Tango.
I got ahold of a D800 and D800e and Nikkor T/S 85mm

My initial experience with the D800 today was a bad one, but much of it may have had to do with the fact that I am used to Canon gear and software. I am unfamiliar with the Nikon way of doing things, and they are different enough to matter 1st day experience vs. 20+ years. So take anything I say with that in mind.

Camera: Nikon D800. it's fine, USB3 is not native on Macs so a minor annoyance

Lens : 85mm T/S pretty much the same as my Canon 90T/S except a little bigger. Not sure, but lens was manual aperture as well as manual focus. There was some kindve aperture preview button....I don't get it, maybe I just don't know how to use the Nikkor or I got an older model; but my Canon 90TS is smaller, lighter, better, sharper, and more automated than this thing.

Capture Software: It took me a while but I finally figured out that Nikon sells their capture software separate. It took three downloads and two updates but finally established handshake between Camera and computer. Again, I like the Canon Utilities way better, all controls are right there in one small easy to understand pane.*

LiveView: no comparison, Canon's blows this thing away. Expandable windows, multiple grids and masks, adjustable separate overlays and exposure/color balance, moveable zoom feature...I have no idea why but LiveView on the Nikon/85TS combo was dark, clunky and slow. Must have missed a button or something? Seriously, it was pretty bad in comparison.*

Images: 36mp = 103MB RGB 8bit that it did. Shadows were noiseless and smooth. Overall color when profiled was OK but a little on the yellow/red side, hard to remove because it was dependent on surface reflections. Overall I would say that the D800 at least is not sharp. Perhaps the D800E is sharper to my liking.

So there it is, my 1st impression of the D800.*
Not great, Not as good as my 1st impression of the IQ180 or H50 backs.
I do not think I will go that route. (D800). Prolly fine for advanced amateurs but for production work in a studio, not happenin

E
 

Egor

Member
Hi Paul,
I use a DataColor Spydercheck 90-patch and Spydercheck software to profile individual cameras/lighting setups. If I need to get more into it, I use existing Heidelberg Scan Profile software and Macbeth software.
I am open to suggestions.
The datacolor stuff creates a CameraRaw profile or a profile for LR or C1 and we have found it to be pretty accurate with the Canons. Dont own a MFD yet but am moving in that direction and will want to know what is recommended.
 
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