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MFD for Art Repro?

Egor

Member
Choices for Art Repro

I run a commercial studio, mostly small product, art repro, and post-proc.
I am upgrading the art-repro part of the biz and trying to decide between a few paths. My primary need is color accuracy and DR, as well as a need for large files (200+MB 16bit RGB)
I am not very familiar with larger format digital but getting up to speed ASAP.
I have tested a single large painting with a good cross-section of tones with a BetterLight 6K mounted on a 4x5 with Schneider Digitar, a Hasselblad 200MS w/ Fujinon 120 Macro, and a PhaseOne IQ180 with Mamiya 120 Macro.
I will try and post some samples of those test captures if interested.
The BetterLight scan back returned the best color accuracy and DR, but not by much, and I believe that Hassy or PhaseOne backs could match it with a little more experience on my part using the software.

My current gut instinct is telling me that my best bang for my buck will be obtained buying a used PhaseOne P65 setup and the Schneider T/S and 120 Macro lenses.
I think this setup will be the easiest to train my staff how to use in the studio and should come in under $30k. It will also significantly upgrade our art-repro capabilities and can be multi-stitched (sliding the artwork) for enormous file sizes.

Any one here do art repro capture and have any thoughts on my choice of a used P65 system with Macro lens vs IQ180 or scan back and 4x5 options?
 

Egor

Member
Thanks, archivue, I tested the MS Hassy and it was awesome for color accuracy, but even though MS should beat any single shot, it really didn't, and add to that the extra work required for multishot and the Hasselblad's terrible LV function (IMO) ...
The BetterLight Scanback delivered the best for color accuracy and file size, but it would be a bear to train staff to use it and I would end up with yet another piece of equipment in my studio that requires me and only me to operate ( similar to my Heidelberg Tango Drumscanner) Trying to avoid that...
Why do you rec the Leaf? Isn't it nearly the same as the PhaseOne back? Is Leaf known for better color rendition in their software or something?


Guy: the IQ160 Would put me over my budget for new system, the P65 seems to be available used and for my purposes just as good. Reason for busting budget and going for the IQ160 vs P65?
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well you could go demo or used but one reason retail value for sure plus focus mask and all the IQ features can also get you away from tethered and make it much more valuable in the field.

Need to look at future needs as well.

I actually been thinking of selling mine for a 140. I could use more gear in other areas myself and with my 28 and 60 tech lenses it would not be so bad going to a crop since I'm only using a tech cam now. I gave up the DF which the crop drove me nuts. Since I'm not using it certainly something for me to consider.
 

lance_schad

Workshop Member
Choices for Art Repro

I run a commercial studio, mostly small product, art repro, and post-proc.
I am upgrading the art-repro part of the biz and trying to decide between a few paths. My primary need is color accuracy and DR, as well as a need for large files (200+MB 16bit RGB)
I am not very familiar with larger format digital but getting up to speed ASAP.
I have tested a single large painting with a good cross-section of tones with a BetterLight 6K mounted on a 4x5 with Schneider Digitar, a Hasselblad 200MS w/ Fujinon 120 Macro, and a PhaseOne IQ180 with Mamiya 120 Macro.
I will try and post some samples of those test captures if interested.
The BetterLight scan back returned the best color accuracy and DR, but not by much, and I believe that Hassy or PhaseOne backs could match it with a little more experience on my part using the software.

My current gut instinct is telling me that my best bang for my buck will be obtained buying a used PhaseOne P65 setup and the Schneider T/S and 120 Macro lenses.
I think this setup will be the easiest to train my staff how to use in the studio and should come in under $30k. It will also significantly upgrade our art-repro capabilities and can be multi-stitched (sliding the artwork) for enormous file sizes.

Any one here do art repro capture and have any thoughts on my choice of a used P65 system with Macro lens vs IQ180 or scan back and 4x5 options?
Have you considered an Aptus II-12 80MP back for this? It offers you the same resolution as the IQ180 , excellent color fidelity but does not have all the bells & whistles of the IQ, also at a lot less money. For a tethered workflow this is an excellent solution.

The P65+ is a great back, but I think you will benefit greatly from the extra 20MP with the Aptus II-12.

Lance (email me)
 

yaya

Active member
There are many aspects and different views on the subject or art repro.

Most important IMO is the workflow (given that you have a good camera obviously...).

There's a huge difference between doing 2 old masters paintings a week to doing 3 books a day for instance.

If you are going to have a dedicated copy-stand station with the camera looking down, or if you already have one but just need a bigger camera, then that's another option you can pursue

200MB 16-bit means ~40 megapixel, so you can look for a 40MP back and spend more money on lights, lenses or a new copy stand

Most bang for the buck? Probably an Aptus-II 10 or a 10R on a Cambo Repro 4x5 and a couple of good lenses

In Leaf Capture you can use Sensorflax and shoot either 56MP, 48MP or a square 36MP image, to same space and time. It'll also give you, arguably, the best Live View performance, tethered.

Best overall solution? Probably an iXR with a Credo or an IQ back

Single shot backs offer a huge advantage when you do higher volumes as they produce (relatively) small RAW files, shoot fast (we have customers who shoot 3,500-4,000 pages every day, 6 days a week) and provide shot-to-shot consistency

But as I said this only covers a fraction of this area...please feel free to contact me directly as I have years of experience dealing with repro customers and developing the products for them...

BR

Yair
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I've limited experience working with 2-seperate artist one-who works in pastels the other in acrylics back when I still had my P45+. Both were satisfied with the end result however a lot of work went into it.

While a P65 may look good I agree with Guy's opinion of the IQ back. There's some used/demo IQ backs coming on the market and would strongly recommend checking with a dealer.

Don
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
For art repro at the budget range you're talking about a New Aptus II-10 or demo/used Aptus II 12, or demo/used P65+ would be a my choice.

Best price per megapixel while maintaing a fast/easy/reliable workflow.

There is little question that an IQ or Credo and iXR or our Digital Transitions R-Cam would be a better overall system, but at a commensurate price.
 

Egor

Member
Great info here! Thanks.
I can respond better once in the studio. (still early morning here in SoCal)

Definitely will ask about the Aptus but 40MP is my minimum and doesn't account for cropping (assume 70%) because no art original has ever fit exactly the format of the camera.
Definitely more the 3-5 masters a week category not copying books here. The work gets pretty big (5x7ft up to 10ft x 8ft! In rare cases)
Also will be used in studio with strobes for cover shots, food, and billboard needs of certain clients.
Will absolutely never ever shoot anything other than tethered. I have forgotten what a CF card even looks like :)
 

Shashin

Well-known member
DR is not much of an issue in artwork--the sensor will have plenty of DR to handle any flat art and you can control the lighting with 3-D stuff. Pixel resolution is also not a big factor--any MFD back is going to give you a file with plenty of information. The most important thing is color and tone reproduction. Unfortunately, there is really no silver bullet--you are going to have to set that up for yourself which goes beyond the back into your entire workflow from lighting to CM. Profiling the camera can help a great deal here.

I use a Linhof C679 view camera with a Phase Back tethered to a computer with 30" monitor. I have a sliding back. An SLR with a T/S Schneider might be a faster way to work. However, you are limited to focal length. For many things, it may not be a problem. With large artwork and limited studio space, it might be.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
You have plenty of options and C1 is awesome for tethered which will handle all the Leaf and Phase backs. On the new Credos and Phase IQ USB 3 is still waiting to be implemented . I use my Phase with Firewire 800 but the P65+ is Firewire 400 I believe so need to look at all these connections and whats good for the studio. I can tell you the IQ 160 gets a preview in 2 seconds from capture to screen and that is pretty damn good. A lot of the backs are very fast at this so need to look at all the tech specs on one your interested in. Personally I try and buy the latest and greatest but hell I'm a gear slut too but in the long run with upgrades it works to your favor. All stuff to be looking at for sure. Other thing is what camera / lenses and such will be using but sounds like right off the bat with large pieces you need full frame backs.

You have a lot of very smart experienced folks here so take your time and figure out your best needs. Worst case at these levels is making a mistake. I would certainly buy from a dealer or someone you know and trust.
 

etrump

Well-known member
Quite a few of the smaller shops are switching from the scanning backs to IQ180 for reproduction. You have plenty of resolution and it is much faster and easier to manage compared to a bellows and scanning back. The contrast meter on a better light scanning back would be a nice thing for live view on the IQ.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hi Egor -

I would concur with Shashin's response when it comes to best solutions for art repro. The color accuracy and tone is really the thing. And what you'll find is that every product can handle many colors well, but can also miss on others - at least out of the box, with standard profiles, etc.

I saw suggestions for Leaf A-II 56, A-II 80, Phase P65+. Those are obvious candidates. While an IQ would be nice, I don't know that for dedicated repro work, the extra capabilities would be cost effective. For double duty and other applications - sure, worth considering.

I think it would be important to do extensive testing over a wide range of color palettes, subjects, and even materials. Some materials have different reflectivity properties that can impact color receptivity by sensors, and the reproduction of the color.


Steve Hendrix
 

Egor

Member
Wow, really great info! Kind've overwhelming, I mean to answer all and have some more questions but currently have 36 drumscans, two art repro captures, and over 300 handbags staring me in the face...all due....by Friday of course :)
I will respond soon as I can, just didnt want anyone to think I was ignoring this great info. Really impressed with the wealth of knowledge on this site! Very glad I found :)
 

Egor

Member
Recent test between BetterLight 6K stitched (On Left) and IQ180 single pop (on right)
The subtle tones and gradations in both highlights and shadows of the BetterLight 6K scanback are amazing, but I think with some practice, I could get similar results from the PhaseOne or similar back such as the Leaf. BTW, the IQ180 file is way sharper and punchier, but would have to do a 100% crop to show.
Great info and will look at the Leaf option as well now. Just buried here but thought I would share one of the tests.
I print these on an Epson 11880 on Canvas using ORIS RIP or ONYX, depending on file. This original is 72inches by 48inches and will be reproduced same size

http://www.eprepservices.com/public/BL6KvsIQ180.jpg
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
You might find this link interesting on using the C1 Pro LCC tool for flat art reproduction: Flat Art Reproduction « The Image Quality Professor's Blog

I've used several Phase One MFDBs for copywork and art reproduction including the P30, P45+, P65+ and IQ180. By far, files from the IQ180 are the quickest and easiest to work with. Considering all the different shapes/sizes of art, I'd opt for a full frame sensor which will handle cropping better.

ken
 

archivue

Active member
for pano stuff, you can also use stiching to increase file size... using an Arca RM3D, or CAMBO RS, or Alpa...
 

Egor

Member
Yes, the file on the left (BL 6K is stitched and is over 1.5GB in size 16bit) I could have done the same with the IQ180 but just didnt. At 1st glance, the IQ180 loses by a mile, but I have played withe raw capture in C1 and can do better. :)
 
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