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Thread: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    2 messages are putting interest on Leica these days:

    Mirrorless Rumors | Blog | Leica Monochrome sensro made by Platinum Equity (Kodak sensor).

    but the second news being even more thrilling:
    Rumor: Leica S3 with new sensor at Photokina | Leica News & Rumors

    it is also said that pentax is heading into the same direction:
    Pentax working on second generation of the 645D medium format camera | Photo Rumors

    finally - this seems to tell that we start moving now into the right direction !

    Greetings from Lindenberg
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Stefan

    Thanks for bringing all this interesting news to the forum.

    On your way home one afternoon (we are told in Australia that Europe is pretty small) just slip by the Phase 1 factory and look in the window and tell us when the New Phase 1 camera will be announced.

    I am of course just joking.


    Regards.


    mal

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    How can one fail to be impressed? The source is a "super" one.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    2 messages are putting interest on Leica these days:

    Mirrorless Rumors | Blog | Leica Monochrome sensro made by Platinum Equity (Kodak sensor).

    but the second news being even more thrilling:
    Rumor: Leica S3 with new sensor at Photokina | Leica News & Rumors

    it is also said that pentax is heading into the same direction:
    Pentax working on second generation of the 645D medium format camera | Photo Rumors

    finally - this seems to tell that we start moving now into the right direction !

    Greetings from Lindenberg
    Stefan

    So - if this turns out to be true - this is good. It provides a larger than 35mm solution that starts to dig into some of the technologies that 35mm shooters take for granted (high ISO, amazing Live View, etc). And it reinforces my belief that if/when medium format is able to scale CMOS-type sensors that still produce medium format quality, the initial size offerings will be on the small end of the spectrum (44x33), while CCD sensors continue to occupy the larger sizes, especially as medium format goes past 645 format, which is my hope.


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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Hmmm imagine a sensor like the D800 sensor scaled up to fit into the back of the Pentax 645 and not the 44x33 crop sensor, but larger.

    Hmmm a proper sensor in a modern MF DSLR that does not freeze or lockup.....

    And then there is Fuji that's tinkering around and has a very long history of MF and larger MF.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Hmmm imagine a sensor like the D800 sensor scaled up to fit into the back of the Pentax 645 and not the 44x33 crop sensor, but larger.

    Hmmm a proper sensor in a modern MF DSLR that does not freeze or lockup.....

    And then there is Fuji that's tinkering around and has a very long history of MF and larger MF.
    Somebody opens a Leica thread discussing sensors larger than 24x36 in new Leica cameras and 3 posts later we're back to Pentax and Nikon (Leica's direct competitors) & Fuji, who's 22MP back failed to sell more than a handful of units in Japan and who doesn't have a body to fit a 24x36 sensor into...

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Hi Mal

    I wish I could, I am as curious as you may be. But with about 1000km distance..... ? And even if I were in Kopenhagen I´m sure they wouldn´t tell me. I just watch what´s happening and guess as the most others also do !

    Leica is doing pretty good now, I think they made the right switch. It is interesting though that there is some resistance accepting Leica as successful player in the MF market. Of course they also have their problems, they would need more lenses and faster devellopment as well as some more R&D budget to fullfil any (sometimes to many) expectations that may have been risen.

    But overall, I welcome the S2 as a very good camera which helps to keep the Leica spirit alive. And of course as I´m german, this is good news also for german photo industry.

    Regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    for me it rings up to questions:

    1) For some reasons I can not physically explain so far all CCD-sensor cameras I have used like M8/9, DMR, Sinar 54LV/75LV, S2 do produce acertain "look" of images which I have prefered over the CMOS cameras I have owned (all kinds of Nikons up to the D2x, various Canons including 5D and 7D, ...)
    Will, if the rumour is true, the new S3 sensor still produce the same look which I like so much? ( I hope so, because a sensor which produces the same look but with greater high ISO would be nice)
    Sorry if I can not explain it, I just find the images more natural/film like/real. It is not just about resolution and DR.

    2) I wonder how much better a b&w sensor will be over a color sensor?
    (In particular I wonder if a M-b&w would beat the IQ of a S2-image converted to b&w). I think I will ask this question in a seperate thread.


    2)

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    2 messages are putting interest on Leica these days:

    Mirrorless Rumors | Blog | Leica Monochrome sensro made by Platinum Equity (Kodak sensor).

    but the second news being even more thrilling:
    Rumor: Leica S3 with new sensor at Photokina | Leica News & Rumors

    it is also said that pentax is heading into the same direction:
    Pentax working on second generation of the 645D medium format camera | Photo Rumors

    finally - this seems to tell that we start moving now into the right direction !

    Greetings from Lindenberg
    Stefan
    Thank you for posting these interesting rumors Stefan! As a M and S user, both have my undivided attention.

    A dedicated B&W M camera holds a great deal of interest for me because I convert about 80% of M images into B&W anyway. It would be a great addition to a M9P ... or what-ever Leica decides to do with the M10.

    It will be interesting to see how filtration will be handled ... whether there will be color "sensitivity" filters built into the camera, or if we are back to using various B&W filters from the days of film (I still have entire sets of those filters that I never jettisoned when moving to digital).

    I approach the S3 rumors with caution. Despite all the benefits of CMOS, I remain subjectively unconvinced of the IQ characteristics even in the face of newer CMOS sensor technologies demonstrated by the Nikon D800.

    It must be quite frustrating for makers of high end gear these days ... rumors, and speculation as to what could be, seems to garner a lot of attention, and takes the wind out of the sails of new products ... they are barely out the door, and seem obsolete in the face of what is soon coming. Not much of a concern for something like a $3,000 D800 ... but @ $25K and up, one considering a move most certainly has to take pause.

    The whole digital juggernaut is mind-boggling lately, more so than on past IMO because the moves are such huge leaps. Lots of fun to speculate and dream, but a harsh reality when it comes to paying for it at an ever increasing pace.

    -Marc
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Very interesting reading Stefan and hopefully true because if one MF manufacturer jumps on to a decent full frame CMOS 645 chip you can bet all will follow very shortly after.

    MF development seems to take tiny steps where as 35mmm and CMOS technology is taking big leaps over the last few years. While I'm very contented with the IQ of my P65+, the lure of the IQ/Credo screen is pulling me but in light of the posts I've been reading over the last few days about the file quality of the D800 the upgrade cost to a IQ180/Credo80 for a new screen and only minute IQ differences seems ridiculous.

    So this leaves me hoping and waiting that this technology makes it into a Leica/Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad camera very soon. Better full resolution higher ISO, 2 stops more DR and 20-30fps live view would be a wet dream of a MF back.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Somebody opens a Leica thread discussing sensors larger than 24x36 in new Leica cameras and 3 posts later we're back to Pentax and Nikon (Leica's direct competitors) & Fuji, who's 22MP back failed to sell more than a handful of units in Japan and who doesn't have a body to fit a 24x36 sensor into...
    Did you even read the first post?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post

    .....

    it is also said that pentax is heading into the same direction:
    Pentax working on second generation of the 645D medium format camera | Photo Rumors

    .....


    Stefan
    Pentax was part of the discussion from the get go....

    And while your at it knocking Fuji you might want to keep in mind that they are in part your competitor being the manufacturer and co designer of the Hasselblad....
    So they do know a thing or two about medium format.

    Fuji's Super CCD 22 MP sensor was discontinued when they made their arrangements with Hasselblad.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Did you even read the first post?????



    Pentax was part of the discussion from the get go....

    And while your at it knocking Fuji you might want to keep in mind that they are in part your competitor being the manufacturer and co designer of the Hasselblad....
    So they do know a thing or two about medium format.

    Fuji's Super CCD 22 MP sensor was discontinued when they made their arrangements with Hasselblad.
    I think that there's only so much that you can actually learn and consider as facts by following rumour websites...
    Perhaps you can check again with your reliable sources, but AFAIK Truesense Imaging is still producing the 6 micron CCD sensors (H4D40, H4D50, Leica S2 & Pentax 645D along with a few other customers)

    Also Fuji were/are involved in making the HC lenses (designed by Hasselblad) and NOT the body and the digital backs. David Grover can correct me if I'm wrong

    Their 22MP back (made for the 680) came out (and then disappeared) 2-3 years after the H1 was released (and BTW the first backs that worked on the H1 were Kodak & Phase One)

    Not knocking Fuji at all, just not seeing them as an active player in the MF arena anymore
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Very interesting reading Stefan and hopefully true because if one MF manufacturer jumps on to a decent full frame CMOS 645 chip you can bet all will follow very shortly after.

    MF development seems to take tiny steps where as 35mmm and CMOS technology is taking big leaps over the last few years. While I'm very contented with the IQ of my P65+, the lure of the IQ/Credo screen is pulling me but in light of the posts I've been reading over the last few days about the file quality of the D800 the upgrade cost to a IQ180/Credo80 for a new screen and only minute IQ differences seems ridiculous.

    So this leaves me hoping and waiting that this technology makes it into a Leica/Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad camera very soon. Better full resolution higher ISO, 2 stops more DR and 20-30fps live view would be a wet dream of a MF back.
    Just wondering out-loud here ...

    I wonder if this is the route for MFD to take?

    I wonder if "decent" should be the objective for MFD, and "all" should follow?

    Maybe CMOS would be a good move for the Pentax 645D, since it seems they positioned themselves to appeal to the enthusiast/generalists photographer with a self-contained camera at a competitive price-point. Yet, even in this case, what would constitute a differentiating target consumer appeal over where 35mm DSLRs are now at, and will be going? What would need to happen to a Pentax 645D to sustain sales that warrant continuation into future R&D, development and bringing another camera to market while retaining that competitive pricing?

    I think Leica is a different matter, their appeal lies in the lenses, and for the most part it always has. The R system bodies were always a decade behind if the measure is implementation of current technologies. People bought R bodies to get to the R lenses. As it stands today, the S system retains a real estate advantage over 35mm DSLRs, so any current technological development in either CMOS or CCD sensor technology can be used to leap-frog to a differentiating pixel level IQ factor, and the ground-up S lens designs are more than up to the task. It is the Leica lenses that help make the S system a bit more future proof, and a competitive price structure has never been an attribute of anything Leica.

    A reaction to the MFD upgrade quandary such as yours is understandable. Yet, I wonder if the IQ differences are as "minute" as you suggest? Personally, I've yet to see it despite all the hype and enthusiasm that is natural when something new and ground-breaking hits the market. I think the new Leaf backs are just as news-worthy ... and I have yet to see anything from the 35mm DSLR world to equal the look and feel of the Leaf aesthetic approach to IQ ... IQ as a package concept.

    I feel the same way about my H4D/60 ... A much larger Dalsa CCD back, with a lens system that is all Leaf-Shutter, fits not only my aesthetic needs in file rendering, it fits my application needs better than any current 35mm DSLR.

    Just wondering.

    -Marc

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    Senior Member David Schneider's Avatar
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post

    And then there is Fuji that's tinkering around and has a very long history of MF and larger MF.
    I was wondering about Fuji and mf too. With the reviews that the Fuji X1Pro is compared reasonably favorably to a Leica M9 and Canon 5dMK3 in many areas while using a small sensor, one has to wonder what could be done with a larger sensor in a mirror-less MF camera. Fuji has the experience building MF cameras and lenses.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by David Schneider View Post
    I was wondering about Fuji and mf too. With the reviews that the Fuji X1Pro is compared reasonably favorably to a Leica M9 and Canon 5dMK3 in many areas while using a small sensor, one has to wonder what could be done with a larger sensor in a mirror-less MF camera. Fuji has the experience building MF cameras and lenses.
    Even one more is wondering about Fuji here . The X1Pro is the first CMOS sensor that I do like, not because of resolution, but because of its look. Now, all Fuji has to do is to quadruple its size and put it into an MF camera. What can be easier?

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    I would be interested to know to what degree the 16 bit files of the CCD sensors becomes the "look" of current MFD files Vs the 14 bit files of current CMOS sensors?

    The second natural question to ask is why doesn't CMOS have 16 bit files?

    The third question is, if CCD sensors had 14 bit files would that allow them to run live view similar to CMOS on the grounds that they would have to some relative sense less processing to do, so faster refresh rates = better live view.

    mal

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    A reaction to the MFD upgrade quandary such as yours is understandable. Yet, I wonder if the IQ differences are as "minute" as you suggest? Personally, I've yet to see it despite all the hype and enthusiasm that is natural when something new and ground-breaking hits the market. I think the new Leaf backs are just as news-worthy ... and I have yet to see anything from the 35mm DSLR world to equal the look and feel of the Leaf aesthetic approach to IQ ... IQ as a package concept.

    I feel the same way about my H4D/60 ... A much larger Dalsa CCD back, with a lens system that is all Leaf-Shutter, fits not only my aesthetic needs in file rendering, it fits my application needs better than any current 35mm DSLR.

    Just wondering.

    -Marc
    Marc, I went back and read my post again and it wasn't clear to even me what I was meaning!

    By minute IQ differences I mean between the P65 and IQ180/Credo80. The reference to the D800 is what large IQ steps the CMOS world is taking for such little outlay compared to the £9K (guesstimate) upgrade cost of a new back with very little IQ differences.

    As you say, your H4D/60 fits all your current needs so what would it take for you to upgrade again considering CCD technology seems to be near or at its peak in the latest generation of backs?

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    The third question is, if CCD sensors had 14 bit files would that allow them to run live view similar to CMOS on the grounds that they would have to some relative sense less processing to do, so faster refresh rates = better live view.
    I thought the problem with CCD and live view was the power management and chip heat build up rather than the bit depth and data rate.

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    Senior Member David Schneider's Avatar
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Karma View Post
    Even one more is wondering about Fuji here . The X1Pro is the first CMOS sensor that I do like, not because of resolution, but because of its look. Now, all Fuji has to do is to quadruple its size and put it into an MF camera. What can be easier?
    If the performance of their small sensor is that good, just making a dslr full frame size would probably make it better than the "lower" end mfd's (and I'll put my Hasselblad H3D2-39 into that catagory), but be able to have usable higher ISO.

    I honestly have a hard time comparing web images of cameras and seeing differences unless there are side by side comparisons of the same subject with same lighting and exposure, but I really like the "look" of X1Pro images posted.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by David Schneider View Post
    ....... there are side by side comparisons of the same subject with same lighting and exposure, but I really like the "look" of X1Pro images posted.
    Whatever makes the "look". The samples posted gave me a thrill that is not because the images are exceptionally good, also lenses very different and NON-Fuji lenses in the mix, so it has something to do with the way how the data is captured / processed. I doubt I can get my 5D2 to do something similar.

    I would not argue about the "look", just saying it ...... . for those who see/feel the same.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Karma View Post
    Whatever makes the "look". The samples posted gave me a thrill that is not because the images are exceptionally good, also lenses very different and NON-Fuji lenses in the mix, so it has something to do with the way how the data is captured / processed. I doubt I can get my 5D2 to do something similar.

    I would not argue about the "look", just saying it ...... . for those who see/feel the same.
    I see the "look" with my Hasselblad H3d2-39, but not with 5dMK2.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Did you even read the first post?????



    Pentax was part of the discussion from the get go....

    And while your at it knocking Fuji you might want to keep in mind that they are in part your competitor being the manufacturer and co designer of the Hasselblad....
    So they do know a thing or two about medium format.

    Fuji's Super CCD 22 MP sensor was discontinued when they made their arrangements with Hasselblad.
    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I think that there's only so much that you can actually learn and consider as facts by following rumour websites...
    Perhaps you can check again with your reliable sources, but AFAIK Truesense Imaging is still producing the 6 micron CCD sensors (H4D40, H4D50, Leica S2 & Pentax 645D along with a few other customers)
    Yaya you can keep your sarcasm to yourself.

    I have never stated that Truesense is not making 6 micron CCD sensors.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post

    Also Fuji were/are involved in making the HC lenses (designed by Hasselblad) and NOT the body and the digital backs.
    Hasselblad has never been very upfront about the H system. You seem to go along with the missinformation.

    There all sorts of made in Japan lables on Hasselblad cameras.
    The lenses are Fuji design and manufacturing.
    When I was shooting in Milan many years ago a Fuji gentleman knowing that I used the Fuji gx680 brought a 645 prototype to my studio that looked very much like the Fuji gx645 when it came out.







    From the Hasselblad website:
    "In 1998 the result of one such partnership allowed Hasselblad, along with Fuji Photo Film, to once again revolutionize the camera industry with the introduction of the new Hasselblad XPan camera. This unique system was developed and produced by Hasselblad in close co-operation with Fuji."
    Developed and produced by Hasselblad? Strange that it looks nothing like a hasselblad... not even the slightest hint of Hasselblad styling, but looked just like a scaled down Fuji 670 680 or 690. Even looks remarkably like the Fuji x-pro 1


    base plate of an xpan.... says made in Japan.

    It was a re lable of this


    The original Fuji


    The "Fujiblad" xpan
    Last edited by FredBGG; 3rd May 2012 at 15:23.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Marc, I went back and read my post again and it wasn't clear to even me what I was meaning!

    By minute IQ differences I mean between the P65 and IQ180/Credo80. The reference to the D800 is what large IQ steps the CMOS world is taking for such little outlay compared to the £9K (guesstimate) upgrade cost of a new back with very little IQ differences.

    As you say, your H4D/60 fits all your current needs so what would it take for you to upgrade again considering CCD technology seems to be near or at its peak in the latest generation of backs?
    Reasonable questions for sure. I'm not sure what it would take to leverage me on to an MFD upgrade path. I've mildly considered the Hasselblad H4D/200 because I've never seen any IQ like it .... most realistic images ever. Due to how I use these cameras, live-view is of less interest since my live view is a 30" screen I've worked with Multi-Shot cameras before and love the whole process and final results.

    My mobile applications tend to not need that sort of performance. 24 meg or my S2 are plenty for that work. I'd opt for a 18 meg Canon 1DX for 35mm DSLR work for speed and higher ISO ... but I'm moving away from that type work lately.

    I tend to follow what Teledyne Dalsa publishes on this sensor subject, as they produce both CCD and CMOS solutions and consider themselves a "neutral supplier". Of interest is the information that outlines the differences, and touts the CCD's uniformity due to inherent unencumbered design verses the on chip capabilities of CMOS, which probably accounts for more functional aspects of CMOS. I'm not an engineer, so what it all means in reality is probably debateable.

    CCD vs. CMOS

    Professional Still Photography

    DALSA CCD Technology

    So, I,m not so sure CCD has reached its peak. Dalsa states that even currently, they can produce CCD capabilities to 100+ megapixels ... but to quote Dalsa: "Of course, image quality depends on more than just pixel count".

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    I would be interested to know to what degree the 16 bit files of the CCD sensors becomes the "look" of current MFD files Vs the 14 bit files of current CMOS sensors?

    The second natural question to ask is why doesn't CMOS have 16 bit files?

    The third question is, if CCD sensors had 14 bit files would that allow them to run live view similar to CMOS on the grounds that they would have to some relative sense less processing to do, so faster refresh rates = better live view.

    mal
    There is no 16-bit camera. Having a 16-bit A/D converter does not mean there is 16-bits of information. It is great marketing though. Essentially, we live in a 14-bit world.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    I don't know why anyone is surprised by the contribution Fuji made by building cameras for Hasseblad. It is about as a well kept secret like Minolta made Leica cameras and optics and Seitz manufactures Alpa cameras.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Shashin

    Well I took the 16 bit ploy hook line and sinker.

    Thanks for letting me know - all I need to do now is work out how to cough up that hook stuck in my throat.


    Mal

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    There is no 16-bit camera. Having a 16-bit A/D converter does not mean there is 16-bits of information. It is great marketing though. Essentially, we live in a 14-bit world.
    Really? Then why does sensor maker Dalsa offer the choice?

    From their website:

    "-Applications requiring ultra-high resolution and high bit depth (12, 14, 16)
    -Medium format professional photography
    -Aerial photogrammetry
    -Radiography
    -Industrial inspection"


    I'd like to understand this better. Yet, if the resulting image from the camera is 16 bit color depth, do we care how it was achieved?

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I don't know why anyone is surprised by the contribution Fuji made by building cameras for Hasseblad. It is about as a well kept secret like Minolta made Leica cameras and optics and Seitz manufactures Alpa cameras.
    Well, I for one would be very surprised since it is no secret that Hasselblad H cameras are made in Sweden and the digital backs are made in Denmark. Both clearly marked on the camera and the back. The lenses are Hasselblad designs then finalized and assembled in Japan ... which is also clearly marked on each lens.

    From the horses mouth so to speak ...

    "The H-System is largely designed and manufactured by Hasselblad, with Fuji's involvement being limited to finalizing Hasselblad's lens designs and producing the glass for the lenses and viewfinders. Fuji was allowed under the agreement to sell the H camera under their name in Japan only."

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    1. As I understand 16bit TIFFs only hold 15 bit color info. One bit is reserved.

    2. "if the resulting image from the camera is 16 bit color depth"

    You easily can a 12-bit info into 16-bit (just some bits are random)
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yet, if the resulting image from the camera is 16 bit color depth, do we care how it was achieved?

    -Marc
    So my Pentax 645D is a 16-bit camera because I open my RAW files in Photoshop as 16-bit. Are you sure you don't care how it is achieved?

    I work with scientific cameras that "make" 16-bit files right out of the camera. My dealers are also honest enough to tell me I am not really getting 16-bits of data. Yes, you can make a camera that will generate a 16-bit RAW file. But if the last two bits don't have any information, do you have a 16-bit file? If you buy a Pint of bitter and the bar tender just puts 12oz in the pint glass, did you get your pint?

    14-bits of information is really a lot. 4.4 trillion possible different colors at each pixel is nothing to sneeze at.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, I for one would be very surprised since it is no secret that Hasselblad H cameras are made in Sweden and the digital backs are made in Denmark. Both clearly marked on the camera and the back. The lenses are Hasselblad designs then finalized and assembled in Japan ... which is also clearly marked on each lens.

    From the horses mouth so to speak ...

    "The H-System is largely designed and manufactured by Hasselblad, with Fuji's involvement being limited to finalizing Hasselblad's lens designs and producing the glass for the lenses and viewfinders. Fuji was allowed under the agreement to sell the H camera under their name in Japan only."

    -Marc
    From Hasselblad. I wonder what "largely designed and manufactured" means? I wonder why Hasselblad would let Fuji sell "their" cameras under the Fuji brand if they were really doing all the work. The Japanese are as fanatical about European photographic equipment as anyone else in the world, maybe more so. There is no benefit for Hasselblad to brand their cameras as Fuji. (In fact, the X-Pan was "imported" into Japan so the customers could get the Hasselblad name on it--call it the Red Dot syndrome. Even the "Rollei" branded CV Voightlander rangefinder was sold in Japan.) I am sure over time the manufacturing moves around, but to brand Fuji as an insignificant partner is a bit much.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Well, if you have to know, it should come as no surprise that Fuji invented photography. And if they wanted to, just on a whim, they would release their super-duper dual CCD-CMOS sensor hybrid with 24-bit depth and live view... Nah, nevermind. Fuji would rather concentrate on world domination and taking over the world. Yeah, that's the ticket....

    Oh wait, none of this Fuji dribble has anything to do with a new purported sensor from Leica....

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Well, if you have to know, it should come as no surprise that Fuji invented photography.
    What is this? The camera industry has a long history of cooperation--Nikon has made lenses for Mamiya, does that reflect badly on either company. Both Hasselblad and Fuji are excellent companies. They both make excellent products. Why is giving Fuji the credit they deserve get turned into a statement about worship? Naturally, none of the partners in these collaborations reveals the nature of the collaboration, but it does not take a rocket scientist to figure them out.

    BTW, if the Japanese did invent photography, then you would have to give Konica that title, as they are the oldest Japanese photographic manufacturer. BTW, Konica is also known for making excellent cameras.

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Amazing what one can find on the internet...

    While Chinese philosopher Mo Ii and Greek mathematicians Aristotle and Euclid described a pinhole camera the first permanent photograph was an image in 1820 by French inventor Joseph Nicéphore Niépce.

    The first digital camera was invented in 1975 by Kodak and Steve Sasson. However the first digital image was made in 1957 by Russell Kirsch when he made a 176x176 pixel digital image by scanning a photograph of his 3-month old son.
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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    What is this? ....
    It's the most sarcastic statement of the day. (I hope you didn't miss the humor)

    With many products being a so technologically advanced sum of parts, it should come as no surprise that a finished product has the fingerprints of many companies... (no sarcasm here)

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    So my Pentax 645D is a 16-bit camera because I open my RAW files in Photoshop as 16-bit. Are you sure you don't care how it is achieved?

    I work with scientific cameras that "make" 16-bit files right out of the camera. My dealers are also honest enough to tell me I am not really getting 16-bits of data. Yes, you can make a camera that will generate a 16-bit RAW file. But if the last two bits don't have any information, do you have a 16-bit file? If you buy a Pint of bitter and the bar tender just puts 12oz in the pint glass, did you get your pint?

    14-bits of information is really a lot. 4.4 trillion possible different colors at each pixel is nothing to sneeze at.
    I was referencing in context ... We were talking about sensors and in-camera ... not software.

    So if they say a camera is 14 bit, is it actually 12, and 12 is actually 10?

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    From Hasselblad. I wonder what "largely designed and manufactured" means? I wonder why Hasselblad would let Fuji sell "their" cameras under the Fuji brand if they were really doing all the work. The Japanese are as fanatical about European photographic equipment as anyone else in the world, maybe more so. There is no benefit for Hasselblad to brand their cameras as Fuji. (In fact, the X-Pan was "imported" into Japan so the customers could get the Hasselblad name on it--call it the Red Dot syndrome. Even the "Rollei" branded CV Voightlander rangefinder was sold in Japan.) I am sure over time the manufacturing moves around, but to brand Fuji as an insignificant partner is a bit much.
    Sorry, I'm not privy to Hasselblad's business arrangements with their suppliers, or what Fuji may have paid Hasselblad for the right to sell the Fuji H body in Japan ... if anything. Nor can I find the Fuji "H" camera on Fuji's current global website. Do they even market that camera in Japan anymore?

    All I know is that saying the Hasselblad H cameras are made by Fuji in Japan is incorrect.

    They are "Made in Sweden", same as the V cameras. What "Made In" means these days may be the actual question

    Components for any number of cameras can be made in many different places ... it is a global economy after-all. I take "Made In" to mean majority design control (even with contributors outside of Sweden), final assembly, and quality control.

    Not that it would make any difference IMO. The Contax 645 was the breakthrough MF system of its time, and everything was made in Japan ... including the lenses at the Carl Zeiss Institute in Japan. And, the much loved XPan was all Fuji ... how many of us would care where it was made, if that XPan were now available in a digital version? I wouldn't.

    All the best,

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Hi Marc
    If rumours are correct, there may well be a digital Xpan on the horizon....

    Rumor: Hasselblad to introduce a new family of digital cameras at Photokina (digital X-Pan?) | Photo Rumors

    Now that would make my day!

    Cheers, Sinuhe

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    Hi Marc
    If rumours are correct, there may well be a digital Xpan on the horizon....

    Rumor: Hasselblad to introduce a new family of digital cameras at Photokina (digital X-Pan?) | Photo Rumors

    Now that would make my day!

    Cheers, Sinuhe
    Would make my day as well - much more so than any new sensors in the S System

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    Hi Marc
    If rumours are correct, there may well be a digital Xpan on the horizon....

    Rumor: Hasselblad to introduce a new family of digital cameras at Photokina (digital X-Pan?) | Photo Rumors

    Now that would make my day!

    Cheers, Sinuhe
    I'm more interested in the smaller MFD camera that has been long rumored, and supposedly is close to completion ... especially if it is a dual shutter body, or even if it is a focal plane camera as a supplement to my H4D/60 leaf shutter system. However, if it requires a whole new set of lenses, they can keep it as far as I'm concerned ... unless Zeiss makes a few special lenses for it in H mount.

    We'll just have to wait and see.

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

    Dual shutter would be great - I still have an old Zeiss 250 mm f4.0, and the 110mm f2.0 would be a great addition....
    That said, the Xpan was a favourite for quite a while, and is still used - but scanning the Velvia film is a hassle.

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