The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Leica: innovations on BW and MF CMOS chips

Stefan Steib

Active member
2 messages are putting interest on Leica these days:

Mirrorless Rumors | Blog | Leica Monochrome sensro made by Platinum Equity (Kodak sensor).

but the second news being even more thrilling:
Rumor: Leica S3 with new sensor at Photokina | Leica News & Rumors

it is also said that pentax is heading into the same direction:
Pentax working on second generation of the 645D medium format camera | Photo Rumors

finally - this seems to tell that we start moving now into the right direction !

Greetings from Lindenberg
Stefan
 

malmac

Member
Stefan

Thanks for bringing all this interesting news to the forum.

On your way home one afternoon (we are told in Australia that Europe is pretty small) just slip by the Phase 1 factory and look in the window and tell us when the New Phase 1 camera will be announced.

I am of course just joking.


Regards.


mal
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
2 messages are putting interest on Leica these days:

Mirrorless Rumors | Blog | Leica Monochrome sensro made by Platinum Equity (Kodak sensor).

but the second news being even more thrilling:
Rumor: Leica S3 with new sensor at Photokina | Leica News & Rumors

it is also said that pentax is heading into the same direction:
Pentax working on second generation of the 645D medium format camera | Photo Rumors

finally - this seems to tell that we start moving now into the right direction !

Greetings from Lindenberg
Stefan

So - if this turns out to be true - this is good. It provides a larger than 35mm solution that starts to dig into some of the technologies that 35mm shooters take for granted (high ISO, amazing Live View, etc). And it reinforces my belief that if/when medium format is able to scale CMOS-type sensors that still produce medium format quality, the initial size offerings will be on the small end of the spectrum (44x33), while CCD sensors continue to occupy the larger sizes, especially as medium format goes past 645 format, which is my hope.


Steve Hendrix
 

FredBGG

Not Available
Hmmm imagine a sensor like the D800 sensor scaled up to fit into the back of the Pentax 645 and not the 44x33 crop sensor, but larger.

Hmmm a proper sensor in a modern MF DSLR that does not freeze or lockup.....

And then there is Fuji that's tinkering around and has a very long history of MF and larger MF.
 

yaya

Active member
Hmmm imagine a sensor like the D800 sensor scaled up to fit into the back of the Pentax 645 and not the 44x33 crop sensor, but larger.

Hmmm a proper sensor in a modern MF DSLR that does not freeze or lockup.....

And then there is Fuji that's tinkering around and has a very long history of MF and larger MF.
Somebody opens a Leica thread discussing sensors larger than 24x36 in new Leica cameras and 3 posts later we're back to Pentax and Nikon (Leica's direct competitors) & Fuji, who's 22MP back failed to sell more than a handful of units in Japan and who doesn't have a body to fit a 24x36 sensor into...
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Mal

I wish I could, I am as curious as you may be. But with about 1000km distance..... ? And even if I were in Kopenhagen I´m sure they wouldn´t tell me. I just watch what´s happening and guess as the most others also do !

Leica is doing pretty good now, I think they made the right switch. It is interesting though that there is some resistance accepting Leica as successful player in the MF market. Of course they also have their problems, they would need more lenses and faster devellopment as well as some more R&D budget to fullfil any (sometimes to many) expectations that may have been risen.

But overall, I welcome the S2 as a very good camera which helps to keep the Leica spirit alive. And of course as I´m german, this is good news also for german photo industry.

Regards
Stefan
 

Paratom

Well-known member
for me it rings up to questions:

1) For some reasons I can not physically explain so far all CCD-sensor cameras I have used like M8/9, DMR, Sinar 54LV/75LV, S2 do produce acertain "look" of images which I have prefered over the CMOS cameras I have owned (all kinds of Nikons up to the D2x, various Canons including 5D and 7D, ...)
Will, if the rumour is true, the new S3 sensor still produce the same look which I like so much? ( I hope so, because a sensor which produces the same look but with greater high ISO would be nice)
Sorry if I can not explain it, I just find the images more natural/film like/real. It is not just about resolution and DR.

2) I wonder how much better a b&w sensor will be over a color sensor?
(In particular I wonder if a M-b&w would beat the IQ of a S2-image converted to b&w). I think I will ask this question in a seperate thread.


2)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
2 messages are putting interest on Leica these days:

Mirrorless Rumors | Blog | Leica Monochrome sensro made by Platinum Equity (Kodak sensor).

but the second news being even more thrilling:
Rumor: Leica S3 with new sensor at Photokina | Leica News & Rumors

it is also said that pentax is heading into the same direction:
Pentax working on second generation of the 645D medium format camera | Photo Rumors

finally - this seems to tell that we start moving now into the right direction !

Greetings from Lindenberg
Stefan
Thank you for posting these interesting rumors Stefan! As a M and S user, both have my undivided attention.

A dedicated B&W M camera holds a great deal of interest for me because I convert about 80% of M images into B&W anyway. It would be a great addition to a M9P ... or what-ever Leica decides to do with the M10.

It will be interesting to see how filtration will be handled ... whether there will be color "sensitivity" filters built into the camera, or if we are back to using various B&W filters from the days of film (I still have entire sets of those filters that I never jettisoned when moving to digital).

I approach the S3 rumors with caution. Despite all the benefits of CMOS, I remain subjectively unconvinced of the IQ characteristics even in the face of newer CMOS sensor technologies demonstrated by the Nikon D800.

It must be quite frustrating for makers of high end gear these days ... rumors, and speculation as to what could be, seems to garner a lot of attention, and takes the wind out of the sails of new products ... they are barely out the door, and seem obsolete in the face of what is soon coming. Not much of a concern for something like a $3,000 D800 ... but @ $25K and up, one considering a move most certainly has to take pause.

The whole digital juggernaut is mind-boggling lately, more so than on past IMO because the moves are such huge leaps. Lots of fun to speculate and dream, but a harsh reality when it comes to paying for it at an ever increasing pace.

-Marc
 

gazwas

Active member
Very interesting reading Stefan and hopefully true because if one MF manufacturer jumps on to a decent full frame CMOS 645 chip you can bet all will follow very shortly after.

MF development seems to take tiny steps where as 35mmm and CMOS technology is taking big leaps over the last few years. While I'm very contented with the IQ of my P65+, the lure of the IQ/Credo screen is pulling me but in light of the posts I've been reading over the last few days about the file quality of the D800 the upgrade cost to a IQ180/Credo80 for a new screen and only minute IQ differences seems ridiculous.

So this leaves me hoping and waiting that this technology makes it into a Leica/Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad camera very soon. Better full resolution higher ISO, 2 stops more DR and 20-30fps live view would be a wet dream of a MF back.
 

FredBGG

Not Available
Somebody opens a Leica thread discussing sensors larger than 24x36 in new Leica cameras and 3 posts later we're back to Pentax and Nikon (Leica's direct competitors) & Fuji, who's 22MP back failed to sell more than a handful of units in Japan and who doesn't have a body to fit a 24x36 sensor into...
Did you even read the first post?????

.....

it is also said that pentax is heading into the same direction:
Pentax working on second generation of the 645D medium format camera | Photo Rumors

.....


Stefan
Pentax was part of the discussion from the get go....

And while your at it knocking Fuji you might want to keep in mind that they are in part your competitor being the manufacturer and co designer of the Hasselblad....
So they do know a thing or two about medium format.

Fuji's Super CCD 22 MP sensor was discontinued when they made their arrangements with Hasselblad.
 

yaya

Active member
Did you even read the first post?????



Pentax was part of the discussion from the get go....

And while your at it knocking Fuji you might want to keep in mind that they are in part your competitor being the manufacturer and co designer of the Hasselblad....
So they do know a thing or two about medium format.

Fuji's Super CCD 22 MP sensor was discontinued when they made their arrangements with Hasselblad.
I think that there's only so much that you can actually learn and consider as facts by following rumour websites...
Perhaps you can check again with your reliable sources, but AFAIK Truesense Imaging is still producing the 6 micron CCD sensors (H4D40, H4D50, Leica S2 & Pentax 645D along with a few other customers)

Also Fuji were/are involved in making the HC lenses (designed by Hasselblad) and NOT the body and the digital backs. David Grover can correct me if I'm wrong

Their 22MP back (made for the 680) came out (and then disappeared) 2-3 years after the H1 was released (and BTW the first backs that worked on the H1 were Kodak & Phase One)

Not knocking Fuji at all, just not seeing them as an active player in the MF arena anymore
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Very interesting reading Stefan and hopefully true because if one MF manufacturer jumps on to a decent full frame CMOS 645 chip you can bet all will follow very shortly after.

MF development seems to take tiny steps where as 35mmm and CMOS technology is taking big leaps over the last few years. While I'm very contented with the IQ of my P65+, the lure of the IQ/Credo screen is pulling me but in light of the posts I've been reading over the last few days about the file quality of the D800 the upgrade cost to a IQ180/Credo80 for a new screen and only minute IQ differences seems ridiculous.

So this leaves me hoping and waiting that this technology makes it into a Leica/Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad camera very soon. Better full resolution higher ISO, 2 stops more DR and 20-30fps live view would be a wet dream of a MF back.
Just wondering out-loud here ...

I wonder if this is the route for MFD to take?

I wonder if "decent" should be the objective for MFD, and "all" should follow?

Maybe CMOS would be a good move for the Pentax 645D, since it seems they positioned themselves to appeal to the enthusiast/generalists photographer with a self-contained camera at a competitive price-point. Yet, even in this case, what would constitute a differentiating target consumer appeal over where 35mm DSLRs are now at, and will be going? What would need to happen to a Pentax 645D to sustain sales that warrant continuation into future R&D, development and bringing another camera to market while retaining that competitive pricing?

I think Leica is a different matter, their appeal lies in the lenses, and for the most part it always has. The R system bodies were always a decade behind if the measure is implementation of current technologies. People bought R bodies to get to the R lenses. As it stands today, the S system retains a real estate advantage over 35mm DSLRs, so any current technological development in either CMOS or CCD sensor technology can be used to leap-frog to a differentiating pixel level IQ factor, and the ground-up S lens designs are more than up to the task. It is the Leica lenses that help make the S system a bit more future proof, and a competitive price structure has never been an attribute of anything Leica.

A reaction to the MFD upgrade quandary such as yours is understandable. Yet, I wonder if the IQ differences are as "minute" as you suggest? Personally, I've yet to see it despite all the hype and enthusiasm that is natural when something new and ground-breaking hits the market. I think the new Leaf backs are just as news-worthy ... and I have yet to see anything from the 35mm DSLR world to equal the look and feel of the Leaf aesthetic approach to IQ ... IQ as a package concept.

I feel the same way about my H4D/60 ... A much larger Dalsa CCD back, with a lens system that is all Leaf-Shutter, fits not only my aesthetic needs in file rendering, it fits my application needs better than any current 35mm DSLR.

Just wondering.

-Marc
 

David Schneider

New member
And then there is Fuji that's tinkering around and has a very long history of MF and larger MF.
I was wondering about Fuji and mf too. With the reviews that the Fuji X1Pro is compared reasonably favorably to a Leica M9 and Canon 5dMK3 in many areas while using a small sensor, one has to wonder what could be done with a larger sensor in a mirror-less MF camera. Fuji has the experience building MF cameras and lenses.
 

T.Karma

New member
I was wondering about Fuji and mf too. With the reviews that the Fuji X1Pro is compared reasonably favorably to a Leica M9 and Canon 5dMK3 in many areas while using a small sensor, one has to wonder what could be done with a larger sensor in a mirror-less MF camera. Fuji has the experience building MF cameras and lenses.
Even one more is wondering about Fuji here :chug:. The X1Pro is the first CMOS sensor that I do like, not because of resolution, but because of its look. Now, all Fuji has to do is to quadruple its size and put it into an MF camera. What can be easier? :)
 

malmac

Member
I would be interested to know to what degree the 16 bit files of the CCD sensors becomes the "look" of current MFD files Vs the 14 bit files of current CMOS sensors?

The second natural question to ask is why doesn't CMOS have 16 bit files?

The third question is, if CCD sensors had 14 bit files would that allow them to run live view similar to CMOS on the grounds that they would have to some relative sense less processing to do, so faster refresh rates = better live view.

mal
 

gazwas

Active member
A reaction to the MFD upgrade quandary such as yours is understandable. Yet, I wonder if the IQ differences are as "minute" as you suggest? Personally, I've yet to see it despite all the hype and enthusiasm that is natural when something new and ground-breaking hits the market. I think the new Leaf backs are just as news-worthy ... and I have yet to see anything from the 35mm DSLR world to equal the look and feel of the Leaf aesthetic approach to IQ ... IQ as a package concept.

I feel the same way about my H4D/60 ... A much larger Dalsa CCD back, with a lens system that is all Leaf-Shutter, fits not only my aesthetic needs in file rendering, it fits my application needs better than any current 35mm DSLR.

Just wondering.

-Marc
Marc, I went back and read my post again and it wasn't clear to even me what I was meaning! :eek:

By minute IQ differences I mean between the P65 and IQ180/Credo80. The reference to the D800 is what large IQ steps the CMOS world is taking for such little outlay compared to the £9K (guesstimate) upgrade cost of a new back with very little IQ differences.

As you say, your H4D/60 fits all your current needs so what would it take for you to upgrade again considering CCD technology seems to be near or at its peak in the latest generation of backs?
 

gazwas

Active member
The third question is, if CCD sensors had 14 bit files would that allow them to run live view similar to CMOS on the grounds that they would have to some relative sense less processing to do, so faster refresh rates = better live view.
I thought the problem with CCD and live view was the power management and chip heat build up rather than the bit depth and data rate.
 

David Schneider

New member
Even one more is wondering about Fuji here :chug:. The X1Pro is the first CMOS sensor that I do like, not because of resolution, but because of its look. Now, all Fuji has to do is to quadruple its size and put it into an MF camera. What can be easier? :)
If the performance of their small sensor is that good, just making a dslr full frame size would probably make it better than the "lower" end mfd's (and I'll put my Hasselblad H3D2-39 into that catagory), but be able to have usable higher ISO.

I honestly have a hard time comparing web images of cameras and seeing differences unless there are side by side comparisons of the same subject with same lighting and exposure, but I really like the "look" of X1Pro images posted.
 

T.Karma

New member
....... there are side by side comparisons of the same subject with same lighting and exposure, but I really like the "look" of X1Pro images posted.
Whatever makes the "look". The samples posted gave me a thrill that is not because the images are exceptionally good, also lenses very different and NON-Fuji lenses in the mix, so it has something to do with the way how the data is captured / processed. I doubt I can get my 5D2 to do something similar.

I would not argue about the "look", just saying it ...... . for those who see/feel the same.
 
Top