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Thread: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

  1. #51
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    ....I can't hack 1/250 top sync speed. Where are leaf-shutter lenses for 35mm cameras? I can put my back on a tech camera with full movements and no compromise optics, that has never worked very well with 35mm versions. I work with a waist-level finder, those don't exist for 35mm anymore. I do not like working all day looking though a squiny viewfinder ... been there done that, and so on.

    It also surmises that sensor makers like Dalsa are asleep at the wheel, and the same abilities can't be placed in a larger sensor.
    .........
    -Marc
    Marc

    There is a very close solution to your request and it is much more easier than putting complicated shutters in every lens (which I think is mad and a total waste of resources). Modern CMOS chips support a so called global Shutter reading, the only thing a shutter needs to do with this capability is finishing the exposure by covering the sensor while its read out. 1 shutter plane, that´s it and any sync that you want/respectively the chip speed supports. With any lens.......... ! Nikon already had built this in a former model in the beginning of their dslr´s (forget the model number).
    There is NO reason why this should not be done again.

    And about Dalsa: of course they can build a big CMOS ! But as they are profit driven and not a club to save MF camera makers they want money for this ! Shell down around 20 Mil $ and guarantee a minimum number of chips per time and you´ll have it !

    SO : Again - either the MF industry reacts and does something or they will dwindle away and this will include all the peripheral makers of connected stuff and Tech cams as well.

    Regards
    Stefan

    PS.: Olympus and Panasonic are already working on this - for their consumer stuff !

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    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 6th May 2012 at 03:36. Reason: added a link
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Marc

    There is a very close solution to your request and it is much more easier than putting complicated shutters in every lens (which I think is mad and a total waste of resources). Modern CMOS chips support a so called global Shutter reading, the only thing a shutter needs to do with this capability is finishing the exposure by covering the sensor while its read out. 1 shutter plane, that´s it and any sync that you want/respectively the chip speed supports. With any lens.......... ! Nikon already had built this in a former model in the beginning of their dslr´s (forget the model number).
    There is NO reason why this should not be done again.

    And about Dalsa: of course they can build a big CMOS ! But as they are profit driven and not a club to save MF camera makers they want money for this ! Shell down around 20 Mil $ and guarantee a minimum number of chips per time and you´ll have it !

    SO : Again - either the MF industry reacts and does something or they will dwindle away and this will include all the peripheral makers of connected stuff and Tech cams as well.

    Regards
    Stefan

    PS.: Olympus and Panasonic are already working on this - for their consumer stuff !

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    Yes, I grasp the possibilities of doing away with the traditional shutter all-together. Lots of benefits including no shutter vibration, and any sync speed up to what the t.1 sync of the lights themselves are capable of (which are more the limiting factor than current Leaf shutters).

    For any working photographer, all of this is a nice speculation, but vaporware until someone actually does it. I have photographs to take now, not in some distant future. Most can't wait for dreams to catch-up with reality ... so either are committed to something that gets the job done, or will commit.

    RE: Dalsa-Teledyne. They tout their willingness, focus and ability to economically produce custom sensors for industrial/medical and photographic applications, including off-sensor technologies, and they already have a number of off-the-shelf innovation/abilities that exceed what is now in current cameras. So I'm not so sure your $20 Million quote is correct, or an exaggeration for the sake of argument. For example, I seriously doubt that Seitz paid Dalsa $20,000,000 up front to make the 160 meg sensor for their 6X17 D3 Panoramic camera, so Seitz could sell a handful of them @ $45,000 each

    The dichotomy in these discussions is impatience.

    When MFD stood at the pinnacle with a 22 meg near 645 sensor, most 35mm DSLRs were half that and cropped frame. 35mm caught up to the meg count with a FF camera like the 5D, and MFD moved further out toward 40 meg ... then 50 ... then 60 ... then 80 ... even 200 with a MS H4D.

    The other reality is that if a vast majority can't see the difference in the MFD aesthetic, or don't care, then it doesn't matter what the MFD companies do. Short of some miraculous proprietary technology (which I tend to doubt will happen), they are headed for extinction, or very specialized and exotic applications.

    I for one see the difference even in the face of D800 images now all over the internet. Detail is one thing, over-all look and feel is another. So far, I see nothing that equals the breathtaking aesthetic impact of what is even just posted here on GetDpi in the "Fun with MFD" section. Common sentiments seem to disagree with my opinion. That doesn't bode well for the MFD companies ... and the critics of MFD have the "bully pulpit".

    In addition to looking forward to what is possible from a technological POV, the MFD companies had best attend to educating the photographic community as to that unique aesthetic made possible by a MFD system ... or meg count and other tech goodies will bury them.

    For example, it may behoove these competitive companies to band together in an effort to promote what MFD can offer the artistic eye. Stop pointing wiggling fingers at each other and bring them together into a fist. Not holding my breath on that one, but it is not uncommon in other product categories ... even stubborn and arrogant ones.

    Of all, I think Leica is the wisest to date. They sell the Leica aesthetic, an attitude toward photography, and unique solutions not meant for everyone nor priced as such. Artistically, I'd rather shoot with a Leica S2 and the 120/2.5 Macro over almost anything ... followed by the M9 and 50/1.4 ASPH ... neither camera of which leads in technological innovation, but each is unique in the shooting experience. If Hasselblad rumors are true, then a new smaller camera is coming soon ... my only hope it that it is dual shutter capable and doesn't require all new lenses ... because it it does, the D800 will be looking better and better as a replacement for the Sony A900s I currently use.

    -Marc
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    I do not subscribe to the belief that ' if your cam does not work don't rat about it. Many others are using the same and are happy with it '.

    Think about statements such as the one above.

    Who cares if your same camera is working? My similar one does not work. Ok,
    I need it repaired. Wait a month!! For a pro making a living of his/her equipment, this is unacceptable.

    Excuse makers for such unacceptable levels of customer service have an axe to grind.

    Statistics of failures to normal functioning? To me, it is apologists making excuses. My money ( MF is big money but applies to all others too ), I want it working and/or I want it fixed..pronto.

    Every other excuse is vaporware. Always brings out the excuse makers from the woodworks.

    Else I have spent thousands on a piece of paperweight. MF or M is not for everyone. Neither are spectacles one wears. But many wear them. They expect to be able to have their vision ( or lack of it ) compensated.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonQuibilan View Post
    Hello everyone!

    A bit off-topic, but I'm about to get myself a Mamiya DF to replace my AFD III. Is it really that buggy of a camera? I'd appreciate comments that go either way...


    TIA!
    Imho, the squeeky wheel syndrome is applicable here. The MFDB community, and hence the Phase/Mamiya DF body users pool, is relatively small. Any complaints, and you will definitely "hear about it" whether from a dealer, fellow user, and especially the web. I think you would be remiss to fall into the fallacy of a hasty generalization: One user's experience (or lack thereof) does not necessarily reflect the experience (or needs or wants or desires) of the whole. And certainly medium format digital photography as a whole (money hole? ) or specialized subset falls into this.

    To be sure the Phase DF has had it's issues, but for the most part I believe it to be a fairly stable camera body. I'm convinced that outside of firmware updates (there was one update that was in err and that was quickly resolved) the major culprit for lock-ups is power: low battery or inconsistent power from rechargeable AAs. Aside from using new Energizer Lithium AAs (or ghastly v-grip), the new Li ion insert I believe addresses this.

    In the years that I've had the Phase DF----in reality I've experienced probably the same numerical amount of lock-ups with my Canon 1Ds Mark III---both of which resolve with shutting off and/or removing/reinserting the battery pack. It's just that when you drop some $, slow down and enjoy your expensive MFDB, imho, you are much more sensitive to anything that may go wrong or upset that experience. I expect more (want/desire more). I paid a lot of money for this system, and damn it, it better work.

    I can't recall a single camera that I've used that has performed perfectly, flawlessly for me. It's like a musical instrument (hey just like medium format digital) that you need to learn to play well, including all its idio(t)synchracies---and how to resolve them.

    That being said, my personal experience with the DF over the past couple of years has been a good one (and yes to affirm, I've experienced lock-ups which I believe to be battery/power related) and I do believe the DF to be a stable and good body overall. It is a vast improvement over previous generations. I believe the new Li ion battery insert should be included as standard equpment with all new DF bodies, with normal AAs as a back-up option.

    ken

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Re Global shutters...it ain't as easy as one might think...
    Dalsa use global shutter technology in CMOS and also in Interline CCDs in their industrial cameras to try and dove the "rolling shutter" effect.
    But these are smallish sensors with relatively low MP that or most used for high-speed imaging. How ever this "high speed" is normally ALLOT slower than 1/800, 1/1600 or 1/4000 that you can get with MF cameras these days

    Many DSLR aerial applications such as mapping & photogrametry where image dimensions accuracy is a must, for example, require shutter speeds of at least 1/1200 to try and avoid rolling shutter issues, resulting in increased shutter wear and higher running costs.

    So yes a global shutter that can be fast enough (faster than 1/300-1/400) will be a breakthrough especially if it can work on sensors larger than 24x36mm and 29MP...

    Perhaps we should move away from this thread and start a new one discussing "Future digital technologies and applications" or somesuch?

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    I do not subscribe to the belief that ' if your cam does not work don't rat about it. Many others are using the same and are happy with it '.

    Think about statements such as the one above.

    Who cares if your same camera is working? My similar one does not work. Ok,
    I need it repaired. Wait a month!! For a pro making a living of his/her equipment, this is unacceptable.

    Excuse makers for such unacceptable levels of customer service have an axe to grind.

    Statistics of failures to normal functioning? To me, it is apologists making excuses. My money ( MF is big money but applies to all others too ), I want it working and/or I want it fixed..pronto.

    Every other excuse is vaporware. Always brings out the excuse makers from the woodworks.

    Else I have spent thousands on a piece of paperweight. MF or M is not for everyone. Neither are spectacles one wears. But many wear them. They expect to be able to have their vision ( or lack of it ) compensated.
    Who is disagreeing with ratting on poor service and shoddy gear?

    It is going on-and-on with it to the point of disparagement, and using anecdotal experiences to paint a whole industry with the same brush. "Why I'm leaving Medium format" isn't the same as saying, "Why I'm leaving Phase One who provided poor service".

    I didn't pronounce my dismay for 35mm DSLRs as a category because Nikon took over 4 months to finally do something about repairing my 24-70 mainstay wedding lens because the parts were on back-order... depriving me of it for the entire wedding season, and forcing me to buy another one in the mean-time. Nor when the camera lit up like a Christmas tree and irretrievably ate all the images? Or miss focussed Canon 1DMK-III images, which Canon denied until forced to act and replace the crappy mirror box ... which took forever for them to acknowledge.

    I also didn't post a whole thread on how Hasselblad sold me a H2 that shot native DNGs and wasn't ready for prime time ... BUT immediately acknowledged their error, and replaced the camera with a new camera literally over-night. That thread would be about 2 posts long because no-one likes good news.

    Just different ways of looking at things I guess.

    -Marc
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...Cameras have to get out of the way...
    YES

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I seriously doubt that Seitz paid Dalsa $20,000,000 up front to make the 160 meg sensor for their 6X17 D3 Panoramic camera, so Seitz could sell a handful of them @ $45,000 each
    Hi Marc -

    Seitz don't have a 160 meg sensor in the D3. It's a scanning back.

    Regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    "I'd rather shoot with a Leica S2 and the 120/2.5 Macro over almost anything ... followed by the M9 and 50/1.4 ASPH"

    Marc, I agree with this sentence, because for me, it comes down to lenses. Many have mentioned the flat look of the D800, that it doesn't have that 3D "pop". That's never been the case with MFD. Bigger sensor, shallow DOF, really, really good lenses to exploit the technology. My #1 best selling print was shot with the H4D/40, using Fuji lenses, it was published in a Travel magazine, but now is being sold to private/corporations in very limited editions. The point is, i've been chasing that "look" in every camera i've shot since then, but alas...have not obtained that particular, indispensable, look of MFD, in a 35mm dslr...yet.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 6th May 2012 at 08:36.

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Who is disagreeing with ratting on poor service and shoddy gear?

    It is going on-and-on with it to the point of disparagement, and using anecdotal experiences to paint a whole industry with the same brush. "Why I'm leaving Medium format" isn't the same as saying, "Why I'm leaving Phase One who provided poor service".

    I didn't pronounce my dismay for 35mm DSLRs as a category because Nikon took over 4 months to finally do something about repairing my 24-70 mainstay wedding lens because the parts were on back-order... depriving me of it for the entire wedding season, and forcing me to buy another one in the mean-time. Nor when the camera lit up like a Christmas tree and irretrievably ate all the images? Or miss focussed Canon 1DMK-III images, which Canon denied until forced to act and replace the crappy mirror box ... which took forever for them to acknowledge.

    I also didn't post a whole thread on how Hasselblad sold me a H2 that shot native DNGs and wasn't ready for prime time ... BUT immediately acknowledged their error, and replaced the camera with a new camera literally over-night. That thread would be about 2 posts long because no-one likes good news.

    Just different ways of looking at things I guess.

    -Marc
    I think the term anecdotal only applies if this was based on one experience only...it is not! Price differentials really add to the instinctive reactions you'll get when a camera does not function.
    Your first S2 was documented here, but you stuck with it, and have a great camera. However, if you had 4 different models that all malfunctioned, as upgrades to the other, would you consider that anecdotal? There's little value in a camera that doesn't work, compared to the price paid. Quite often, I find that you are unwilling to acknowledge these critiques from others, just because its worked for you. Hence, the defensive replies from some (me too) because they're told they're opinion is wrong.

    It's the intrinsic nature of most photographers to get emotional, and intimate about cameras...we are after all, artists!
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 6th May 2012 at 13:49.

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    "I'd rather shoot with a Leica S2 and the 120/2.5 Macro over almost anything ... followed by the M9 and 50/1.4 ASPH"

    Marc, I agree with this sentence, because for me, it comes down to lenses. Many have mentioned the flat look of the D800, that it doesn't have that 3D "pop". That's never been the case with MFD. Bigger sensor, shallow DOF, really, really good lenses to exploit the technology. My #1 best selling print was shot with the H4D/40, using Fuji lenses, it was published in a Travel magazine, but now is being sold to private/corporations in very limited editions. The point is, i've been chasing that "look" in every camera i've shot since then, but alas...have not obtained that particular, indispensable, look of MFD.
    Setting all the technical stuff aside for a moment, I often wonder if we don't do ourselves a disservice by hopping around from one lilly pad to another? We barely get the feel for something and are onto something else.

    The whole notion of "the camera getting out of the way" can be viewed a couple of different ways I think.

    Obviously if the damned thing genuinely doesn't work reliably, then it most certainly IS in the way. That goes without question. Keep that in mind while reading the rest of my post please

    The other perspective is how one can develop a rhythm with a camera if given the time and a little patience. One used to read of the dreaded Hasselblad V lock-ups ... yet, in 30 years of using one, I never had any V camera lock up. I could work very fast with those cameras, but knew exactly what to do, in what order, and when. Like a good "soldier" I could field strip one of those cameras with a blind-fold on, and put it back together just as quickly.

    In a way, the experience with the H system has been similar because the shooting rhythm has fundamentally been unchanged through all 8 iterations that I've owned. The only thing I had to alter was I now use the thumb button to activate H4 True Focus rather than the shutter button. Pretty no-brainer.

    The initial regimentation for using a H camera was drilled into me by my Hasselblad re-seller who was a professional studio tech ... at first I took his remedial teaching demeanor as a bit condescending ... but in retrospect I credit him with no user screw-ups. So, I end up often walking other H users through what they did wrong as opposed to what was wrong with their camera that they blamed on the manufacturer. Half these folks never bothered to sit down with a cup of coffee and the user's manual

    Anyway, I'm reluctant to leave such a fast and familiar way of working, and feel that way about my M camera after 30 years with the same idea. After a year now, the S2 is starting to get there ... partially because of the way it was designed in the first place. It gets familiar pretty fast.

    Sometimes I think familiarity breeds contempt with photo gear. I broke my own resolution recently and bought a Sony A77 replete with all kinds of logical reason why. Absolutely hated it and the images from it. Made me love the A900 more ... even after 3 whole years

    Took the A77 back and felt better than when I bought it.

    All the best,

    -Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 6th May 2012 at 10:54.

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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    There's nothing anecdotal about real world, personal experiences.
    Um.. "real world, personal experiences" is an almost perfect definition of "anecdotal". The adjective, like "technically" or "mathematically" is sometimes used to diminish the importance or validity what it modifies. So I guess I'm "technically" correct.

    --Matt

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    I guess this is the long goodbye...

    You can argue that MFD technology is behind the curve, but it is a moot point. Most professionals know how to expose and focus. They are masters of their tools, not the other way around. When I bought my Horseman SW612, the amateurs could not understand why I would spend so much money for something so primitive. I mean, how could I even focus and get a sharp image? They never seemed to feel all the street and documentary photography I did with the camera handheld was anything less than sharp.

    I can't speak for the reliability of other cameras, by my Pentax 645D just works. Probably the most fancy camera I have ever used. Multi-point AF, great exposure system, electronic level, and a host of other bells and whistle--I am missing those great scene selection exposure modes, so I don't know how I am going to do "Macro" and "Sunset" but I am sure I can muddle through. The technology is great and I have found somethings on the camera that has made life easier, but to be honest, if it did not have all those feature, I would still be making great images with it and just as easily.

    Global shutter and Live View? Sure, they would be nice to have, but I can live happily without them. Better noise and higher ISOs (1600 is really nice on the 645D), would be nice, but since I am getting really nice IQ from the camera now, it is not going to have me jump camera as no one is going to see it. More DR? Nice as well, but as a professional I have worked with limited DR all my career and it have never prevented me from making great imagery.

    You know, great technology is nice to have. But who is the boss, man or machine? All the technology in the world is not going to be able to the important thing which is actually to make the image.
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Um.. that's an almost perfect definition of "anecdotal". The adjective, like "technically" or "mathematically" is sometimes used to diminish the importance or validity what it modifies. So I guess I'm "technically" correct.

    --Matt
    In theory...

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    There's nothing anecdotal about real world, personal experiences. Price differentials really add to the instinctive reactions you'll get when a camera does not function.
    Your first S2 was documented here, but you stuck with it, and have a great camera. However, if you had 4 different models that all malfunctioned, as upgrades to the other, would you consider that anecdotal? There's little value in a camera that doesn't work, compared to the price paid. Quite often, I find that you are unwilling to acknowledge these critiques from others, just because its worked for you. Hence, the defensive replies from some (me too) because they're told they're opinion is wrong.

    It's the intrinsic nature of most photographers to get emotional, and intimate about cameras...we are after all, artists!
    Understood, and I agree ... anecdotal isn't anecdotal if it happens over and over and over.

    I do acknowledge critiques, but sometimes I just think a counter-point may be warranted ... I suppose that is a bit naive on my part ... if I had something fail repeatedly on the job, I'd tell me to go fv<K myself

    -Marc

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Hi Marc -

    Seitz don't have a 160 meg sensor in the D3. It's a scanning back.

    Regards,

    Gerald.
    Yes, I know that, thanks.

    Doesn't alter the fact that Dalsa supplied the sensor for a very limited application ... which I doubt Seitz paid them $20,000,000 to design and fabricate.

    I do understand that a large single shot senor would be more complex, but still question the upfront cost being so high from a custom sensor maker, and further wonder if Phase One paid $20,000,000 up front for their exclusive, low volume 80 meg sensor?

    Marc

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonQuibilan View Post
    Hello everyone!

    A bit off-topic, but I'm about to get myself a Mamiya DF to replace my AFD III. Is it really that buggy of a camera? I'd appreciate comments that go either way...


    TIA!
    Take a look at the phase one forum.

    Phase One, Leaf and Mamiya Official User to User Forum &bull; View forum - Phase One 645DF / Mamiya 645DF

    I'd say if you don't really need the faster flash sync stay with what you have.

    [quote]C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
    Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
    decided.
    0: Speed
    (Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)[/quore]

    From page 99 of the pdf manual.

    The claims of faster focusing are somewhat over rated.
    buried deep in the manual it states that the faster focusing setting is only accurate enough at f8 or more. No mention of that in there video plugging their new focusing.

    Shooting with auto focus | Phase One 645DF camera system - YouTube
    Last edited by FredBGG; 6th May 2012 at 09:57.

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post

    ...we are after all, artists!
    Now sir, such language might give offense to some and rightfully so, if u ask me!
    koffee & kamera
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yes, I know that, thanks.

    Doesn't alter the fact that Dalsa supplied the sensor for a very limited application ... which I doubt Seitz paid them $20,000,000 to design and fabricate.

    I do understand that a large single shot senor would be more complex, but still question the upfront cost being so high from a custom sensor maker, and further wonder if Phase One paid $20,000,000 up front for their exclusive, low volume 80 meg sensor?

    Marc
    Apologies for misinterpreting what you said, but I was responding to your comment that the sensor in the D3/6x17 was a 160MP one. This is of course very far from the truth.

    I think your statement - that you doubt Seitz paid $20M up front for the sensor R&D and production commitment for the D3/6x17 is almost certainly correct, but wasn't that number quoted with reference to the presumed cost to develop a MF CMOS sensor?

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I guess this is the long goodbye...

    You can argue that MFD technology is behind the curve, but it is a moot point. Most professionals know how to expose and focus. They are masters of their tools, not the other way around. When I bought my Horseman SW612, the amateurs could not understand why I would spend so much money for something so primitive. I mean, how could I even focus and get a sharp image? They never seemed to feel all the street and documentary photography I did with the camera handheld was anything less than sharp.

    I can't speak for the reliability of other cameras, by my Pentax 645D just works. Probably the most fancy camera I have ever used. Multi-point AF, great exposure system, electronic level, and a host of other bells and whistle--I am missing those great scene selection exposure modes, so I don't know how I am going to do "Macro" and "Sunset" but I am sure I can muddle through. The technology is great and I have found somethings on the camera that has made life easier, but to be honest, if it did not have all those feature, I would still be making great images with it and just as easily.

    Global shutter and Live View? Sure, they would be nice to have, but I can live happily without them. Better noise and higher ISOs (1600 is really nice on the 645D), would be nice, but since I am getting really nice IQ from the camera now, it is not going to have me jump camera as no one is going to see it. More DR? Nice as well, but as a professional I have worked with limited DR all my career and it have never prevented me from making great imagery.

    You know, great technology is nice to have. But who is the boss, man or machine? All the technology in the world is not going to be able to the important thing which is actually to make the image.
    Nicely put.

    Something from Man Ray back from the stone age of photography ...

    "Of course, there will always be those who look only at technique, who ask ‘how’, while others of a more curious nature will ask ‘why’. Personally, I have always preferred inspiration to information."

    - Man Ray
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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Marc

    the linesensor is quite certain a Kodak (now Truesense) scanline, these can be bought in single pieces from suppliers.

    Regards
    Stefan

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yes, I know that, thanks.

    Doesn't alter the fact that Dalsa supplied the sensor for a very limited application ... which I doubt Seitz paid them $20,000,000 to design and fabricate.

    I do understand that a large single shot senor would be more complex, but still question the upfront cost being so high from a custom sensor maker, and further wonder if Phase One paid $20,000,000 up front for their exclusive, low volume 80 meg sensor?

    Marc
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  22. #72
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Just a glimpse of What is possible at Dalsa when they do CMOS on par with todays technological status.

    Teledyne DALSA&#39;s Genie TS Series - YouTube

    and here is the datasheet, 10 FPS Global shutter /12 MPix CMos

    http://www.phase1tech.com/product-fi...tFile_ID/10380

    The point is this makes the cameras so compact and integrated that there is no need for someone else to make another camera. Even with this camera I´d say people could already go into imaging. And then the question arises where are the "photo MF Makers - maybe even the 35mm Photocamera makers" in this scenario ?

    regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Hi Stefan -

    The sensor in the D3/6x17 is a Dalsa. From the Seitz website:

    "The Seitz D3 digital scan back sensor has been designed and developed exclusively for Seitz by DALSA Corporation. The electronics have been engineered by Computechnic of Switzerland."

    Regards,

    Gerald.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Marc

    the linesensor is quite certain a Kodak (now Truesense) scanline, these can be bought in single pieces from suppliers.

    Regards
    Stefan

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Hi Gerald

    OK- thanks, you are right. Probably one of the Piranha line sensors. These exist up to 16k in a line. But exclusive ? This I doubt very much !

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  25. #75
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Um.. "real world, personal experiences" is an almost perfect definition of "anecdotal". The adjective, like "technically" or "mathematically" is sometimes used to diminish the importance or validity what it modifies. So I guess I'm "technically" correct.

    --Matt
    You conveniently forgot the other half of that definition..." Not necessarily true or reliable because based on personal experience rather than facts or research."
    My observations are not based on scientific research, so i'll concede your point, but only because I couldn't get the cameras to function long enough

    The term anecdotal, as it has been used so often here, seems to diminish the validity of an experience just because one doesn't have empirical evidence. Why then would anybody put any credence to any review at all?
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 7th May 2012 at 07:16.

  26. #76
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Shashin-

    I think the 645D, is underestimated. I haven't read anything negative about its performance. Its price is right and its weather sealed, and I think it's the same KAF 40000 as in the H4d/40.

    The key sentence, "it just works" is imo, a glowing review! Also, I shoot with a Fotoman 612, and large format lenses. It's probably the most satisfying camera I've ever used.
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  27. #77
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Shashin-

    I think the 645D, is underestimated. I haven't read anything negative about its performance. Its price is right and its weather sealed, and I think it's the same KAF 40000 as in the H4d/40.

    The key sentence, "it just works" is imo, a glowing review! Also, I shoot with a Fotoman 612, and large format lenses. It's probably the most satisfying camera I've ever used.
    I completely agree with Shashin's assesment of the 645D....it "Just Works" and then some. It quietly goes about it's business, no hang-ups, no glitches..simply nothing untold except it keeps doing what it was designed to do...producing exceptional images, without muss or fuss. In the scheme of things, nothing fancy, but does provide a mutitude of options, some unique to MFD in general. The one thing it can't do in mr particular cicumstance is supplant my Nikon"s for fast moving, low light concert and performing arts shoots...and that's the dilema I find myself in. Very latge file sizes are needed for a wide variety of applications and while the Nikons captured the action perfectly, they weren't capable of the required file sizes. The 645D on the other hand came up with whole stage shots when lighting was turned up and any movement significantly slowed down (and did it splendidly with large format images to match) but obviously wasn't meant for low light fast action. Hence the D800 and with it, it just might be possible to achieve the entire shoot with just one system, instead of two.

    For Landscape/portrait and other types of photography, the depth/dimensionality and color fidelity of files captured by the 645D (and I'm sure most other simiilar resolution MFD cameras/backs), I personally feel are superior to any of the current full frame 35mm high MP cameras and in these type of applications, I would personally choose MFD. Unfortunately that isn"t my situation and so I am facing some hard decisions and choices with regards to continuing to use two systems if one of them is competent to complete a specific job.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 6th May 2012 at 15:48.

  28. #78
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    In my professional life if something repeatedly fails or the support of the company behind the product is lousy then ultimately the customer is going to vote with their wallet and go elsewhere if alternatives exist that can do the job. I hope that Phase One are waking up to this fact now that the differentiation that existed between high end MF digital and prosumer 35mm products has eroded significantly recently and it would appear that folks are indeed voting with their wallets ...

    I love my Phase One & Leaf backs and the look of the files they produce.
    I love the rendering of my Phase One/Mamiya glass, and even more so the Schneider/Rodenstock technical camera glass.
    I also love my crude, reliable, exquisitely built Alpa STC.

    However, and this is where I agree with Fred, the DF leaves a lot to be desired for a number of reasons. I agree with Ken that a lot of the issues are power related but unfortunately not just the body but also back. The integration between the two has some inherent unreliability that is excerbated whenever the power of either the back or the body is low or marginal. I have yet to see or hear anything from either Phase One or Mamiya addressing this - only anecdotal feedback from dealers that the latest firmware rev will "help" but never seems to completely FIX the problems.

    As regards the issue of getting a part - seems to me that as a pro that you'd have a backup and your dealer should be stepping up to provide a loaner or going to bat for you to get the grip/body fixed. For pro gear, and as a working pro, Fred should have had better support (or Fred should have invested in a value added warranty!).

    I've stated before that I tolerate my DF body but have no love for it whatsoever. As an amateur I can work with the foibles to be able to use the glass and the shooting experience I want. If I were a pro then the fact that the camera gets in the way, locks up, doesn't have adequate manufacturer support, etc etc, then I'd also look at moving to something else. Permanently.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Just a glimpse of What is possible at Dalsa when they do CMOS on par with todays technological status.

    Teledyne DALSA&#39;s Genie TS Series - YouTube
    .......
    Obviously this stuff is mostly for surveilliance.

    It feels almost like we are nurishing our hangman, ....... .

    Ok, this is ....

    But good bye messages are posted only once, so a bit of everything should be allowed.

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Shashin-

    I think the 645D, is underestimated. I haven't read anything negative about its performance. Its price is right and its weather sealed, and I think it's the same KAF 40000 as in the H4d/40.

    The key sentence, "it just works" is imo, a glowing review! Also, I shoot with a Fotoman 612, and large format lenses. It's probably the most satisfying camera I've ever used.
    I've had mine since December 2010; it does just work (including the dust removal system). Any problems I have with my photos have nothing to do with the camera.
    It is the same Kodak sensor.

    Tom

  31. #81
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    I've had mine since December 2010; it does just work (including the dust removal system). Any problems I have with my photos have nothing to do with the camera.
    It is the same Kodak sensor.

    Tom
    Tom,

    Thanks for the info. The 645D is the only MFD currently available, I haven't tried. What are the "must have" lenses? Just curious...

  32. #82
    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Well, from my experience of the 645D, the star performing 645 lenses are as follows:
    35mm FA or A versions are both regarded as first rate (A seems to be higher resolution overall, but FA seems to show less CA), 150mm FA f2.8 (very sharp, a little CA in contrasty light), 120mm macro (either A or FA).
    Of the zooms, the 45-85 is the best thought of (beating the 45mm prime, but not quite as good at the long end).
    I also have found the following 67 lenses (using an adaptor) to be outstanding:
    75mm f2.8AL, 300mm f4 EDIF. The other 67 lenses are all good without being remarkable.
    The 67 105mm f2.4 lens gives interesting possibilities wide open due to that pretty fast aperture.
    Others speak highly of the 645 FA 300 EDIF and 400 EDIF lenses, together with the 600 A lens, but I have no first hand experience of them.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    In my professional life if something repeatedly fails or the support of the company behind the product is lousy then ultimately the customer is going to vote with their wallet and go elsewhere if alternatives exist that can do the job. I hope that Phase One are waking up to this fact now that the differentiation that existed between high end MF digital and prosumer 35mm products has eroded significantly recently and it would appear that folks are indeed voting with their wallets ...

    I love my Phase One & Leaf backs and the look of the files they produce.
    I love the rendering of my Phase One/Mamiya glass, and even more so the Schneider/Rodenstock technical camera glass.
    I also love my crude, reliable, exquisitely built Alpa STC.

    However, and this is where I agree with Fred, the DF leaves a lot to be desired for a number of reasons. I agree with Ken that a lot of the issues are power related but unfortunately not just the body but also back. The integration between the two has some inherent unreliability that is excerbated whenever the power of either the back or the body is low or marginal. I have yet to see or hear anything from either Phase One or Mamiya addressing this - only anecdotal feedback from dealers that the latest firmware rev will "help" but never seems to completely FIX the problems.

    As regards the issue of getting a part - seems to me that as a pro that you'd have a backup and your dealer should be stepping up to provide a loaner or going to bat for you to get the grip/body fixed. For pro gear, and as a working pro, Fred should have had better support (or Fred should have invested in a value added warranty!).

    I've stated before that I tolerate my DF body but have no love for it whatsoever. As an amateur I can work with the foibles to be able to use the glass and the shooting experience I want. If I were a pro then the fact that the camera gets in the way, locks up, doesn't have adequate manufacturer support, etc etc, then I'd also look at moving to something else. Permanently.
    Correct me if I am wrong here but there is no dealer purchase in this scenario . Fred as a Pro did not buy from a dealer nor with any warranty. Sorry how often do we drill that in conversations here with MF and that's a bad risk as a Pro. Your swimming in a big ocean without a life boat right out of the gate. You bought no support do you really expect it. Did you actually reach out to a dealer for help. They may not have made the sale but these are good folks that like to help. What's the story first on the purchase?

    Graham I know for a fact has complete dealer support and I'm sure he has leaned on it. I think we forget just because you bought product does not automatically have any support for it. It's out of warranty and is not sold under the dealer network means simply this your on your own. With that it gets stand in that line over there and wait for a part. Cause all the parts we have are for warranty service. Folks this is ANY Product made on the planet. I'm sorry but this goes on every minute of everyday. You have no preference as one of there supported customers to get a part. Paying customers get preference you bought used without warranty and outside the network of dealers. Logic tells me your going to wait until a part is available that no supported customer needs.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  34. #84
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    I'm sorry if that sounds like I took my cranky pill been away having a little too much fun On a road trip and reading this I was scratching my head on this one.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Tom,

    Thanks for the info. The 645D is the only MFD currently available, I haven't tried. What are the "must have" lenses? Just curious...
    I agree with Ed's analysis, with the following modifications: I would add the 645 75mm FA to the list. It is light, sharp, inexpensive and auto focus. The 67 90mm f/2.8 is very nice on the 645D and I prefer it over the 105mm.

    If I were limited to a few lenses I would choose the 35mm, 75mm and the 120mm for sure, 150 or 200 and then the 300 or 400mm. As Ed mentioned the 45-85mm is excellent, but for me it makes the camera a little too big , so I don't use it very much, preferring primes; with smaller lenses the 645D handles like a 35mm body.
    Last edited by tsjanik; 7th May 2012 at 05:08.

  36. #86
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Tom,

    Thanks for the info. The 645D is the only MFD currently available, I haven't tried. What are the "must have" lenses? Just curious...
    Ed's and Tim's recommendations for Pentax 645 lenses is "spot on"!

    Might I also recommend your looking over my comprehensive testing of multiple samples of almost all Pentax Autofocus (and a few manual focus) 645 lenses on the 645D? The Getdpi link to these tests is below. Hopefully I soon be adding to my write-up list, the Pentax A*600mm f5.6 645 lens and one or two others lenses.

    Here is the link to the lens tests:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium...used-645d.html

    Thanks.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 7th May 2012 at 06:51.

  37. #87
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Ed's and Tim's recommendations for Pentax 645 lenses is "spot on"!

    Might I also recommend your looking over my comprehensive testing of multiple samples of almost all Pentax Autofocus (and a few manual focus) 645 lenses on the 645D? The Getdpi link to these tests is below. Hopefully I soon be adding to my write-up list, the Pentax A*600mm f5.6 645 lens and one or two others lenses.

    Here is the link to the lens tests:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium...used-645d.html

    Thanks.

    Dave (D&A)
    I will link to that today, thanks to all for those suggestions. Interestingly enough, this camera,(645D) seems to fill the niche between MFD and 35mmDSLR, in regards to functionality, form factor, etc. Could it be this the little MFD... that could?

  38. #88
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think we forget just because you bought product does not automatically have any support for it. It's out of warranty and is not sold under the dealer network means simply this your on your own. With that it gets stand in that line over there and wait for a part. Cause all the parts we have are for warranty service. Folks this is ANY Product made on the planet. I'm sorry but this goes on every minute of everyday. You have no preference as one of there supported customers to get a part. Paying customers get preference you bought used without warranty and outside the network of dealers. Logic tells me your going to wait until a part is available that no supported customer needs.
    Guy, you make a good point, but I want to add a dealer experience and manufacturer support experience I have had:

    When I purchased my M-Line 2, the salesperson offered to sell me a 'used' Kapture Group sliding back. I asked if there was anything wrong with the back and the salesperson said 'no'. When the back arrived, there was a corner crack with a small gouge in the ground-glass. It was about 1/2" long and did not affect my viewing in the studio all that much, but the dealer did not tell me about it, nor did it happen in transit or the piece of glass that was gouged-out would have been in the wrapping material. I decided I did not want to deal with the dealer about the sliding back since they did not care to either be up front about its condition or was sloppy and did not look it over upon asking. I had had another issue concerning Capture One training that this dealer offered but when I called for it, the salesperson acted like I made it up, so I decided enough sales-games, I would contact Kapture Group about ground-glass replacement costs. Guess what ... Keith Hughes, owner at Kapture Group replaced the ground-glass, materials and labor for free! I only had to pay shipping costs. Talk about doing good business!

    Some people would have called the salesperson back and complained, return the sliding back, etc., etc. I elected to take care of it myself and save myself all the aggravation and cut out the guy that caused the 'mistake' in the first place. Dealing with the manufacturer was a much better experience even if I was expected to pay for a repair which in this case I was not. Nobody likes to hear negative comments, but I am a photographer that has bought and used professional gear for 25+ years and I am fed-up with the middle person. Maybe it is just me, but all I ever feel from dealers anymore is their need to make sales. I get more realistic information on using gear from 'users' than I ever have from salespeople.

    I understand about warranties and expectations, but as I have said 100 times in the past, I would love to cut out the middle man and deal with manufacturers myself. You have dealer advertisers on this forum and they need you! I would expect they give the forum owners exceptional service; just realize not everyone has had 'excellent service' after the sale has been made, warranties or not.

    My 2 cents!
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Totally understand there are exceptions to everything as well including dealers issues as well. At least with a dealer comes warranty and the service and if your having a issue than you can raise the bar on that too. Buying off e-bay is not the answer at all you are in the wind on your own, no one is even going to look at ya. Im not just talking Phase but everyone. But in the case of the MF OEMs buying parts for outdated or discontinued products is going to be hard they do not manufacture like a Toyota for 10 years of parts being made either.

    Now Darr in your case you should have spoke up and got down someones throat believe me I am no tame pussycat at all and I'm relentless. From me to you although public here you should have pressed it. No dealer wants a bad rap ever. Just imagine if I had a bad rap for helping people like I do. It kill me personally, you know how much I love to help folks. They all want that same type of great reputation.

    But I understand your comment to about going directly to the OEM. The problem is they simply do not operate in the same manor as like a Toyota or something like that its very small and they are not always setup to offer that direct support to its overall user base. So yes sometimes these things are frustrating but hey I'm a little frustrated with Nikon too with the lock up and Af issue on there new entry. This all comes back to compromise and using your best judgement that you can and sometimes **** just happens.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Guy, on the flipside, it would make a lot of sense that people could choose once the IQ has reached a certain point, to forgo buying equipment which has need of such close dealer support for cameras which are far more reliable, capable and which you can buy two or even three of the exact same bodies for backup for still under the equivelents MFDB price.

    My Leaf back is about to go back to the dealer for the 2nd time in a month, in the first month of their use. The first time it died completely and had to be replaced. Now it's freezing both itself and the DF camera about every 20 shots tethered even with the super over priced Leaf powered FW adaptor. Been tearing my hair out for two days now with big rush jobs on and when I put in a support case to P1 they ask me if I have a second camera and back to try out. Um, yeah right at 20,000 euro. I wish I could afford backup so my boss wouldn't rip my head off because the incredibly expensive equipment they've paid for just isn't reliable. Our Profoto D1 just came back from repair except it ain't. Also just a month old.

    If my 5D's and Alien Bees would have been this unreliable I wouldn't have been able to shoot weddings with them for 7 years.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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  41. #91
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Well Ben we agree there is a flipside to everything but does not always mean better. This stuff is too touchy grey area stuff sometimes. Hell don't we all wish it was just simply black and white. I could have saved a load of money after all these years. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  42. #92
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Now Darr in your case you should have spoke up and got down someones throat believe me I am no tame pussycat at all and I'm relentless. From me to you although public here you should have pressed it. No dealer wants a bad rap ever. Just imagine if I had a bad rap for helping people like I do. It kill me personally, you know how much I love to help folks. They all want that same type of great reputation.

    But I understand your comment to about going directly to the OEM. The problem is they simply do not operate in the same manor as like a Toyota or something like that its very small and they are not always setup to offer that direct support to its overall user base. So yes sometimes these things are frustrating but hey I'm a little frustrated with Nikon too with the lock up and Af issue on there new entry. This all comes back to compromise and using your best judgement that you can and sometimes **** just happens.
    Too much aggravation Guy; I'd rather simply take my business elsewhere.
    I know there are a few good dealers/salespeople out there, but I admit, I have a very small Rolodex for buying MFD!
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    My Leaf back is about to go back to the dealer for the 2nd time in a month, in the first month of their use. ... Our Profoto D1 just came back from repair except it ain't. Also just a month old.
    WOW, Ben!

  44. #94
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    We must be really blessed because I'm not having any of the problems listed on this thread.

    I've been using the same Cambo WRS for over 3 1/2 years along with 3-lenses and never had a problem. Not one. It works for me.

    Likewise I used a Leica M9 for over 18 months without a hiccup. I left it behind due to a printing limitation.

    Returned to a Phase One DF and a couple lenses just a couple months ago. Again no problems.

    Upgraded my P45+ to a used P65+ and no problems.

    Sandy has been using a 1DsIII since it was introduced without any problems.

    We pay a little more for dealer support however in the long run we save for not having the delays; everything we use has been purchased from one-of two dealers.

    We tend to be a little rough on our equipment based on the type of photography we do we simply have had no problems. Our studio is outdoors; I've been known to hang off cliffs, stand in deep water, pounding surf, blowing sand, dusty conditions, rain, snow you name it and I've used my equipment in it.

    Just remembered one instance of a problem with a point-n-shoot Canon G9 where there was a shutter fault. Called my dealer explained the problem and a new one was shipped the same day even before I sent the defective one back.

    A working pro has choices; save money in the beginning and inherent a possible problem with no dealer support or spend the extra. Not knocking E-Bay or other on-line sellers as I have bought and sold both ways. It's always with the understanding that the support if/when needed will in all likelihood be sparse to nonexistent.

    Medium format digital like everything else is far from perfect. We need more advances to be made and it will never be perfect. So in the end you work with what's best for you, what fits your hands the best and what's best for your workflow and style. There isn't a cookie cutter one-size fits all out there. That's life in general. Try something long enough to learn it, learn what it does for you and find out what works for you. If then don't outweigh to dos the move on.

    Again this move of Fred's is of no real surprise to me based on the comments he's made over his continual displeasure. So again, best of luck.

    Don
    Last edited by Don Libby; 7th May 2012 at 13:23. Reason: typo - from using 8 thumbs and 1 finger
    Don Libby
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    [FONT=Tahoma]Returned to a Phase One DF and a couple lenses just a couple months ago. Again no problems.
    "a couple of months ago".....

    How many shoots and how many shots.

    One can't really establish much about reliability in such a short time frame.

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Guy, on the flipside, it would make a lot of sense that people could choose once the IQ has reached a certain point, to forgo buying equipment which has need of such close dealer support for cameras which are far more reliable, capable and which you can buy two or even three of the exact same bodies for backup for still under the equivelents MFDB price.

    My Leaf back is about to go back to the dealer for the 2nd time in a month, in the first month of their use. The first time it died completely and had to be replaced. Now it's freezing both itself and the DF camera about every 20 shots tethered even with the super over priced Leaf powered FW adaptor. Been tearing my hair out for two days now with big rush jobs on and when I put in a support case to P1 they ask me if I have a second camera and back to try out. Um, yeah right at 20,000 euro. I wish I could afford backup so my boss wouldn't rip my head off because the incredibly expensive equipment they've paid for just isn't reliable. Our Profoto D1 just came back from repair except it ain't. Also just a month old.

    If my 5D's and Alien Bees would have been this unreliable I wouldn't have been able to shoot weddings with them for 7 years.
    OMG! Ben ... what a load of bad luck.

    I recently sold 4 Profoto Compacts, 2 of which were around 10 years old that never failed to work. Been with the D1s now for a scant 8 months, but they take a lickin' and keep on tickin' ... hope it stays that way.

    The only Profoto failure I've experienced was a D4 head ... but I think it had a lot to do with the assistant dropping 10' to the concrete

    Hope it all gets straightened out for you, and soon! Best of luck ... you are due some.

    -Marc

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    [FONT=Tahoma]A working pro has choices......
    And responsibilities.

    I shoot celebrity portraits and fashion.
    When I'm shooting an a-list actor who's film in the last couple of years grossed hundreds of millions their time is very important, limited and very very expensive.
    I cannot afford to work with flaky equipment that freezes, locks up and needs to have batteries pulled out to reset it.
    Lack of stability is unacceptable for what I do.

    Yes a working pro, just like an enthusiast, has choices... actually more and more choices. I simply made the choice to say bye bye to medium format for professional reasons.

    This has nothing to do with dealer or no dealer. There are plenty that posted on this thread about repeated problems with or without dealers.

    In almost 30 years I have never come across a system this flaky.
    I still have 10 year old Canon's that still work flawlessly.
    I treat my gear well and expect it to treat me well

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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    "a couple of months ago".....

    How many shoots and how many shots.

    One can't really establish much about reliability in such a short time frame.
    I made the move back to the DF early November 2011 while in Jackson Hole. During that time I shot everyday until leaving early December; minimum of 250 per day so the total at that location way exceeds 563 in just a couple days. Best guess would be in far excess of 1K per week for the remaining 5 weeks there.

    Then again in February with a return to Jackson for a show, delivery and more work which would add in excess of 500 (low just to be on the safe side).

    Of course there's the shoot in the Everglades for several hundred more. And I can't forget the 4-days spent at White Sands where two days were spent shooting sunrise to sunset. All with the DF and all without any difficulties.

    So in the 24-weeks (to me it's a couple months ago) I've used it in excess of 10 weeks, shot several thousand frames in sub-freezing to very hot weather (can't forget the humidity in the Glades or the stop off at Lake Martin LA) and never once had a problem.

    Sorry for not being precise in the timeline.
    Don Libby
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    And responsibilities.


    In almost 30 years I have never come across a system this flaky.
    I still have 10 year old Canon's that still work flawlessly.
    I treat my gear well and expect it to treat me well
    As I said before, your decision is of no surprise to me due to your previous comments.

    Again - best of luck
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
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    Re: Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    And responsibilities.

    I shoot celebrity portraits and fashion.
    When I'm shooting an a-list actor who's film in the last couple of years grossed hundreds of millions their time is very important, limited and very very expensive.
    I cannot afford to work with flaky equipment that freezes, locks up and needs to have batteries pulled out to reset it.
    Lack of stability is unacceptable for what I do.

    Yes a working pro, just like an enthusiast, has choices... actually more and more choices. I simply made the choice to say bye bye to medium format for professional reasons.

    This has nothing to do with dealer or no dealer. There are plenty that posted on this thread about repeated problems with or without dealers.

    In almost 30 years I have never come across a system this flaky.
    I still have 10 year old Canon's that still work flawlessly.
    I treat my gear well and expect it to treat me well
    I'd do the same thing Fred. Period.

    I don't think you have to be dealing with A listers to need reliable gear either.

    If I am shooting some corporate CEO, or a sports figure doing a PSA shoot, I only get a few minutes with them and they are gone.

    Even a lowly wedding shoot waits for no man or malfunctioning machine, and there are no re-shoots or do-overs.

    Fortunately, my system isn't flakey ... but I never go anywhere without a back-up and a back-up to the back-up ...
    because anything can fail at anytime, and luck favors the prepared.

    -Marc

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