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Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

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johnnygoesdigital

New member
I've had mine since December 2010; it does just work (including the dust removal system). Any problems I have with my photos have nothing to do with the camera.
It is the same Kodak sensor.

Tom
Tom,

Thanks for the info. The 645D is the only MFD currently available, I haven't tried. What are the "must have" lenses? Just curious...
 

Ed Hurst

Well-known member
Well, from my experience of the 645D, the star performing 645 lenses are as follows:
35mm FA or A versions are both regarded as first rate (A seems to be higher resolution overall, but FA seems to show less CA), 150mm FA f2.8 (very sharp, a little CA in contrasty light), 120mm macro (either A or FA).
Of the zooms, the 45-85 is the best thought of (beating the 45mm prime, but not quite as good at the long end).
I also have found the following 67 lenses (using an adaptor) to be outstanding:
75mm f2.8AL, 300mm f4 EDIF. The other 67 lenses are all good without being remarkable.
The 67 105mm f2.4 lens gives interesting possibilities wide open due to that pretty fast aperture.
Others speak highly of the 645 FA 300 EDIF and 400 EDIF lenses, together with the 600 A lens, but I have no first hand experience of them.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
In my professional life if something repeatedly fails or the support of the company behind the product is lousy then ultimately the customer is going to vote with their wallet and go elsewhere if alternatives exist that can do the job. I hope that Phase One are waking up to this fact now that the differentiation that existed between high end MF digital and prosumer 35mm products has eroded significantly recently and it would appear that folks are indeed voting with their wallets ...

I love my Phase One & Leaf backs and the look of the files they produce.
I love the rendering of my Phase One/Mamiya glass, and even more so the Schneider/Rodenstock technical camera glass.
I also love my crude, reliable, exquisitely built Alpa STC.

However, and this is where I agree with Fred, the DF leaves a lot to be desired for a number of reasons. I agree with Ken that a lot of the issues are power related but unfortunately not just the body but also back. The integration between the two has some inherent unreliability that is excerbated whenever the power of either the back or the body is low or marginal. I have yet to see or hear anything from either Phase One or Mamiya addressing this - only anecdotal feedback from dealers that the latest firmware rev will "help" but never seems to completely FIX the problems.

As regards the issue of getting a part - seems to me that as a pro that you'd have a backup and your dealer should be stepping up to provide a loaner or going to bat for you to get the grip/body fixed. For pro gear, and as a working pro, Fred should have had better support (or Fred should have invested in a value added warranty!).

I've stated before that I tolerate my DF body but have no love for it whatsoever. As an amateur I can work with the foibles to be able to use the glass and the shooting experience I want. If I were a pro then the fact that the camera gets in the way, locks up, doesn't have adequate manufacturer support, etc etc, then I'd also look at moving to something else. Permanently.
Correct me if I am wrong here but there is no dealer purchase in this scenario . Fred as a Pro did not buy from a dealer nor with any warranty. Sorry how often do we drill that in conversations here with MF and that's a bad risk as a Pro. Your swimming in a big ocean without a life boat right out of the gate. You bought no support do you really expect it. Did you actually reach out to a dealer for help. They may not have made the sale but these are good folks that like to help. What's the story first on the purchase?

Graham I know for a fact has complete dealer support and I'm sure he has leaned on it. I think we forget just because you bought product does not automatically have any support for it. It's out of warranty and is not sold under the dealer network means simply this your on your own. With that it gets stand in that line over there and wait for a part. Cause all the parts we have are for warranty service. Folks this is ANY Product made on the planet. I'm sorry but this goes on every minute of everyday. You have no preference as one of there supported customers to get a part. Paying customers get preference you bought used without warranty and outside the network of dealers. Logic tells me your going to wait until a part is available that no supported customer needs.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I'm sorry if that sounds like I took my cranky pill been away having a little too much fun On a road trip and reading this I was scratching my head on this one.
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
Tom,

Thanks for the info. The 645D is the only MFD currently available, I haven't tried. What are the "must have" lenses? Just curious...
I agree with Ed's analysis, with the following modifications: I would add the 645 75mm FA to the list. It is light, sharp, inexpensive and auto focus. The 67 90mm f/2.8 is very nice on the 645D and I prefer it over the 105mm.

If I were limited to a few lenses I would choose the 35mm, 75mm and the 120mm for sure, 150 or 200 and then the 300 or 400mm. As Ed mentioned the 45-85mm is excellent, but for me it makes the camera a little too big , so I don't use it very much, preferring primes; with smaller lenses the 645D handles like a 35mm body.
 
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D&A

Well-known member
Tom,

Thanks for the info. The 645D is the only MFD currently available, I haven't tried. What are the "must have" lenses? Just curious...
Ed's and Tim's recommendations for Pentax 645 lenses is "spot on"!

Might I also recommend your looking over my comprehensive testing of multiple samples of almost all Pentax Autofocus (and a few manual focus) 645 lenses on the 645D? The Getdpi link to these tests is below. Hopefully I soon be adding to my write-up list, the Pentax A*600mm f5.6 645 lens and one or two others lenses.

Here is the link to the lens tests:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/mediu...observations-pentax-645-lenses-used-645d.html

Thanks.

Dave (D&A)
 
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johnnygoesdigital

New member
Ed's and Tim's recommendations for Pentax 645 lenses is "spot on"!

Might I also recommend your looking over my comprehensive testing of multiple samples of almost all Pentax Autofocus (and a few manual focus) 645 lenses on the 645D? The Getdpi link to these tests is below. Hopefully I soon be adding to my write-up list, the Pentax A*600mm f5.6 645 lens and one or two others lenses.

Here is the link to the lens tests:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/mediu...observations-pentax-645-lenses-used-645d.html

Thanks.

Dave (D&A)
I will link to that today, thanks to all for those suggestions. Interestingly enough, this camera,(645D) seems to fill the niche between MFD and 35mmDSLR, in regards to functionality, form factor, etc. Could it be this the little MFD... that could?
 

darr

Well-known member
I think we forget just because you bought product does not automatically have any support for it. It's out of warranty and is not sold under the dealer network means simply this your on your own. With that it gets stand in that line over there and wait for a part. Cause all the parts we have are for warranty service. Folks this is ANY Product made on the planet. I'm sorry but this goes on every minute of everyday. You have no preference as one of there supported customers to get a part. Paying customers get preference you bought used without warranty and outside the network of dealers. Logic tells me your going to wait until a part is available that no supported customer needs.
Guy, you make a good point, but I want to add a dealer experience and manufacturer support experience I have had:

When I purchased my M-Line 2, the salesperson offered to sell me a 'used' Kapture Group sliding back. I asked if there was anything wrong with the back and the salesperson said 'no'. When the back arrived, there was a corner crack with a small gouge in the ground-glass. It was about 1/2" long and did not affect my viewing in the studio all that much, but the dealer did not tell me about it, nor did it happen in transit or the piece of glass that was gouged-out would have been in the wrapping material. I decided I did not want to deal with the dealer about the sliding back since they did not care to either be up front about its condition or was sloppy and did not look it over upon asking. I had had another issue concerning Capture One training that this dealer offered but when I called for it, the salesperson acted like I made it up, so I decided enough sales-games, I would contact Kapture Group about ground-glass replacement costs. Guess what ... Keith Hughes, owner at Kapture Group replaced the ground-glass, materials and labor for free! I only had to pay shipping costs. Talk about doing good business!

Some people would have called the salesperson back and complained, return the sliding back, etc., etc. I elected to take care of it myself and save myself all the aggravation and cut out the guy that caused the 'mistake' in the first place. Dealing with the manufacturer was a much better experience even if I was expected to pay for a repair which in this case I was not. Nobody likes to hear negative comments, but I am a photographer that has bought and used professional gear for 25+ years and I am fed-up with the middle person. Maybe it is just me, but all I ever feel from dealers anymore is their need to make sales. I get more realistic information on using gear from 'users' than I ever have from salespeople.

I understand about warranties and expectations, but as I have said 100 times in the past, I would love to cut out the middle man and deal with manufacturers myself. You have dealer advertisers on this forum and they need you! I would expect they give the forum owners exceptional service; just realize not everyone has had 'excellent service' after the sale has been made, warranties or not.

My 2 cents!
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Totally understand there are exceptions to everything as well including dealers issues as well. At least with a dealer comes warranty and the service and if your having a issue than you can raise the bar on that too. Buying off e-bay is not the answer at all you are in the wind on your own, no one is even going to look at ya. Im not just talking Phase but everyone. But in the case of the MF OEMs buying parts for outdated or discontinued products is going to be hard they do not manufacture like a Toyota for 10 years of parts being made either.

Now Darr in your case you should have spoke up and got down someones throat believe me I am no tame pussycat at all and I'm relentless. From me to you although public here you should have pressed it. No dealer wants a bad rap ever. Just imagine if I had a bad rap for helping people like I do. It kill me personally, you know how much I love to help folks. They all want that same type of great reputation.

But I understand your comment to about going directly to the OEM. The problem is they simply do not operate in the same manor as like a Toyota or something like that its very small and they are not always setup to offer that direct support to its overall user base. So yes sometimes these things are frustrating but hey I'm a little frustrated with Nikon too with the lock up and Af issue on there new entry. This all comes back to compromise and using your best judgement that you can and sometimes **** just happens.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Guy, on the flipside, it would make a lot of sense that people could choose once the IQ has reached a certain point, to forgo buying equipment which has need of such close dealer support for cameras which are far more reliable, capable and which you can buy two or even three of the exact same bodies for backup for still under the equivelents MFDB price.

My Leaf back is about to go back to the dealer for the 2nd time in a month, in the first month of their use. The first time it died completely and had to be replaced. Now it's freezing both itself and the DF camera about every 20 shots tethered even with the super over priced Leaf powered FW adaptor. Been tearing my hair out for two days now with big rush jobs on and when I put in a support case to P1 they ask me if I have a second camera and back to try out. Um, yeah right at 20,000 euro. I wish I could afford backup so my boss wouldn't rip my head off because the incredibly expensive equipment they've paid for just isn't reliable. Our Profoto D1 just came back from repair except it ain't. Also just a month old.

If my 5D's and Alien Bees would have been this unreliable I wouldn't have been able to shoot weddings with them for 7 years.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well Ben we agree there is a flipside to everything but does not always mean better. This stuff is too touchy grey area stuff sometimes. Hell don't we all wish it was just simply black and white. I could have saved a load of money after all these years. LOL
 

darr

Well-known member
Now Darr in your case you should have spoke up and got down someones throat believe me I am no tame pussycat at all and I'm relentless. From me to you although public here you should have pressed it. No dealer wants a bad rap ever. Just imagine if I had a bad rap for helping people like I do. It kill me personally, you know how much I love to help folks. They all want that same type of great reputation.

But I understand your comment to about going directly to the OEM. The problem is they simply do not operate in the same manor as like a Toyota or something like that its very small and they are not always setup to offer that direct support to its overall user base. So yes sometimes these things are frustrating but hey I'm a little frustrated with Nikon too with the lock up and Af issue on there new entry. This all comes back to compromise and using your best judgement that you can and sometimes **** just happens.
Too much aggravation Guy; I'd rather simply take my business elsewhere.
I know there are a few good dealers/salespeople out there, but I admit, I have a very small Rolodex for buying MFD!
:deadhorse:
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
We must be really blessed because I'm not having any of the problems listed on this thread.

I've been using the same Cambo WRS for over 3 1/2 years along with 3-lenses and never had a problem. Not one. It works for me.

Likewise I used a Leica M9 for over 18 months without a hiccup. I left it behind due to a printing limitation.

Returned to a Phase One DF and a couple lenses just a couple months ago. Again no problems.

Upgraded my P45+ to a used P65+ and no problems.

Sandy has been using a 1DsIII since it was introduced without any problems.

We pay a little more for dealer support however in the long run we save for not having the delays; everything we use has been purchased from one-of two dealers.

We tend to be a little rough on our equipment based on the type of photography we do we simply have had no problems. Our studio is outdoors; I've been known to hang off cliffs, stand in deep water, pounding surf, blowing sand, dusty conditions, rain, snow you name it and I've used my equipment in it.

Just remembered one instance of a problem with a point-n-shoot Canon G9 where there was a shutter fault. Called my dealer explained the problem and a new one was shipped the same day even before I sent the defective one back.

A working pro has choices; save money in the beginning and inherent a possible problem with no dealer support or spend the extra. Not knocking E-Bay or other on-line sellers as I have bought and sold both ways. It's always with the understanding that the support if/when needed will in all likelihood be sparse to nonexistent.

Medium format digital like everything else is far from perfect. We need more advances to be made and it will never be perfect. So in the end you work with what's best for you, what fits your hands the best and what's best for your workflow and style. There isn't a cookie cutter one-size fits all out there. That's life in general. Try something long enough to learn it, learn what it does for you and find out what works for you. If then don't outweigh to dos the move on.

Again this move of Fred's is of no real surprise to me based on the comments he's made over his continual displeasure. So again, best of luck.

Don
 
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FredBGG

Not Available
Returned to a Phase One DF and a couple lenses just a couple months ago. Again no problems.



"a couple of months ago".....

How many shoots and how many shots.

One can't really establish much about reliability in such a short time frame.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Guy, on the flipside, it would make a lot of sense that people could choose once the IQ has reached a certain point, to forgo buying equipment which has need of such close dealer support for cameras which are far more reliable, capable and which you can buy two or even three of the exact same bodies for backup for still under the equivelents MFDB price.

My Leaf back is about to go back to the dealer for the 2nd time in a month, in the first month of their use. The first time it died completely and had to be replaced. Now it's freezing both itself and the DF camera about every 20 shots tethered even with the super over priced Leaf powered FW adaptor. Been tearing my hair out for two days now with big rush jobs on and when I put in a support case to P1 they ask me if I have a second camera and back to try out. Um, yeah right at 20,000 euro. I wish I could afford backup so my boss wouldn't rip my head off because the incredibly expensive equipment they've paid for just isn't reliable. Our Profoto D1 just came back from repair except it ain't. Also just a month old.

If my 5D's and Alien Bees would have been this unreliable I wouldn't have been able to shoot weddings with them for 7 years.
OMG! Ben ... what a load of bad luck.

I recently sold 4 Profoto Compacts, 2 of which were around 10 years old that never failed to work. Been with the D1s now for a scant 8 months, but they take a lickin' and keep on tickin' ... hope it stays that way.

The only Profoto failure I've experienced was a D4 head ... but I think it had a lot to do with the assistant dropping 10' to the concrete :rolleyes:

Hope it all gets straightened out for you, and soon! Best of luck ... you are due some.

-Marc
 

FredBGG

Not Available
A working pro has choices......


And responsibilities.

I shoot celebrity portraits and fashion.
When I'm shooting an a-list actor who's film in the last couple of years grossed hundreds of millions their time is very important, limited and very very expensive.
I cannot afford to work with flaky equipment that freezes, locks up and needs to have batteries pulled out to reset it.
Lack of stability is unacceptable for what I do.

Yes a working pro, just like an enthusiast, has choices... actually more and more choices. I simply made the choice to say bye bye to medium format for professional reasons.

This has nothing to do with dealer or no dealer. There are plenty that posted on this thread about repeated problems with or without dealers.

In almost 30 years I have never come across a system this flaky.
I still have 10 year old Canon's that still work flawlessly.
I treat my gear well and expect it to treat me well ;)
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
"a couple of months ago".....

How many shoots and how many shots.

One can't really establish much about reliability in such a short time frame.
I made the move back to the DF early November 2011 while in Jackson Hole. During that time I shot everyday until leaving early December; minimum of 250 per day so the total at that location way exceeds 563 in just a couple days. Best guess would be in far excess of 1K per week for the remaining 5 weeks there.

Then again in February with a return to Jackson for a show, delivery and more work which would add in excess of 500 (low just to be on the safe side).

Of course there's the shoot in the Everglades for several hundred more. And I can't forget the 4-days spent at White Sands where two days were spent shooting sunrise to sunset. All with the DF and all without any difficulties.

So in the 24-weeks (to me it's a couple months ago) I've used it in excess of 10 weeks, shot several thousand frames in sub-freezing to very hot weather (can't forget the humidity in the Glades or the stop off at Lake Martin LA) and never once had a problem.

Sorry for not being precise in the timeline.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
And responsibilities.


In almost 30 years I have never come across a system this flaky.
I still have 10 year old Canon's that still work flawlessly.
I treat my gear well and expect it to treat me well ;)
As I said before, your decision is of no surprise to me due to your previous comments.

Again - best of luck
 

fotografz

Well-known member
And responsibilities.

I shoot celebrity portraits and fashion.
When I'm shooting an a-list actor who's film in the last couple of years grossed hundreds of millions their time is very important, limited and very very expensive.
I cannot afford to work with flaky equipment that freezes, locks up and needs to have batteries pulled out to reset it.
Lack of stability is unacceptable for what I do.

Yes a working pro, just like an enthusiast, has choices... actually more and more choices. I simply made the choice to say bye bye to medium format for professional reasons.

This has nothing to do with dealer or no dealer. There are plenty that posted on this thread about repeated problems with or without dealers.

In almost 30 years I have never come across a system this flaky.
I still have 10 year old Canon's that still work flawlessly.
I treat my gear well and expect it to treat me well ;)
I'd do the same thing Fred. Period.

I don't think you have to be dealing with A listers to need reliable gear either.

If I am shooting some corporate CEO, or a sports figure doing a PSA shoot, I only get a few minutes with them and they are gone.

Even a lowly wedding shoot waits for no man or malfunctioning machine, and there are no re-shoots or do-overs.

Fortunately, my system isn't flakey ... but I never go anywhere without a back-up and a back-up to the back-up ...
because anything can fail at anytime, and luck favors the prepared.

-Marc
 
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