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Thread: H3D handheld ?

  1. #1
    JackieS
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    H3D handheld ?

    anyone have any experience of handheld use of an H3d and say teh 50 and 35 lenses ?

    just wonder what sort of shutter speeds you can shoot at consistently and get sharp results (only using extra mirror delay)

    cheers

  2. #2
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    I have used the the 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, and 80mm handheld. I can get really sharp images handheld.

  3. #3
    jmvdigital
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    I shoot with the Phamiya, but I'm curious about handheld shooting as well. Since I got my new system (long time Canon shooter) I've been really wary about handheld shooting. I've been carrying my tripod everywhere. And sure enough, stopping down, at ISO 100 or 200, would require a tripod no matter what. But for walk-n-shoots at wide open, I'm not comfortable enough with the system yet to know the handholding rules. With 35mm, it was always "1/focal length". For MF, I've read to at least double that rule, but not sure.

  4. #4
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    It kind of depends on what size you plan to print at. Final output size affects this also. However, I have been use a shutter speed of 2x the focal length and it then everything is sharp no matter what the output size.

  5. #5
    JackieS
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    forgetting output size for a second
    how difficult is it to shoot files that are totally free from camera shake
    what sorts of shutters are people needing

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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    Well if you want to forget about output size then what you mean is that the image is as sharp at 100% as it would have been at a faster shutter speed.

    I'm pretty sure we (i.e. I) was the one that pioneered the 1/(2xShutter) rule of thumb here and I maintain it as a good starting point, but the exact rule is dependent on 1) your camera body, 2) your camera body settings, 3) how sturdy your hands/stance are and 4) the pixel pitch of your digital back.

    We just ran a test for Stu Baserman with the P65+. He was concerned about hand holding with the extra resolution. As expected camera shake was introduced about 15% (hard to be especially accurate because of shot to shot variation) sooner compared to the P45+ as you dropped in shutter speed.

    What I'd like to point out though is that this is only to get to 100% sharpness for a given system. Having a full pixel of camera shake on the P65+ may look soft when viewed at 100% but it will still produce an image with an effective 15 megapixels of information.

    Below are two 100% crops from those shots. The right image is at 1/80th (f/13**) with the Phase One 80mm lens. It looks pretty sharp in isolation (especially if you're used to viewing dSLR files), but then you compare it to the 1/160th (f9.5) and you realize the 1/80th has a haze of camera shake. Still, the 1/80th could be printed, and could even be printed large, just not as large as the 1/160th.

    These are from a screen grab at 100% in 4.5 Pro with default sharpening and no clarity adjustments.




    The reason you need higher shutter speed than with a film, from which the 1/shutter rule came, is first and foremost because the effective pixel density is higher*. Camera shake is a function of the number of pixels the subject moves across during the exposure. It's not that camera shake produces a worse image with a P65+ compared to say a P25+ (60.5mp and 22mp respectively). In fact, if you take an 80mm lens and shoot each at say 1/160th hand-held and print them the same size you will find they look the exact same! However, if you can get to a faster shutter speed the P65+ will continue to gain additional sharpness while the P25+ will stay the same (as it is already maxed out on detail).

    In fact the same goes for film. If you shoot a digital back and an equivalent piece of film with 1/shutter as your rule of film then you could make an equally good final print. But that would be because the film is maxed out on sharpness while the digital back has been dumbed down to the sharpness level of the film.

    Also I would be remiss if I didn't mention that the H3DII has one less stop of usable ISO range compared to the equivalent Phase One back for the H body (the P45+ can go to a very usable ISO 800). A full stop of ISO is more important than any other consideration when talking about camera shake.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
    Personal Portfolio

    *depending on your body MF may have a more severe mirror slap compared to older film bodies or dSLRs, but this is often counter acted by the additional mass of the body which dampens (or translates to lower frequencies) the shake from your body

    **diffraction is a slight concern at f13, but I ran other test shots to confirm that the softness in this image far exceeds the minor loss of sharpness due to diffraction

  7. #7
    JackieS
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    thanks for that

    all very interesting

    with the H3d you could just leave it in a slightly higher iso every time just to gain a slightly faster shutter. I dont really see much difference between 100 and 200.

    Note that the H3D31 goes up to ISO 1600 now with the next firmware change

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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    I can tell you that i have made large prints 16x24 (maybe not big to other folks) from shots I have taken handheld with the 28mm, 35mm and 80mm. I cannot recall if i made prints with the 50mm as I sold it. The exact shutter needed with each focal length is clearly dependent on the operator. If I take handheld shots, I usually take a few to make sure i get them as sharp as possible. I do admit that I prefer to use a tripod but sometimes I do not have that option. I think each person would need to practice to see at the focal length/shutter speed they are comfortable with. I have not compared the mirror delay setting with handheld shots as of yet. I believe i have mine set to 100ms but would have to check.

    I think mirror slap is more problematic with tripod shots at lower shutter speeds. Sometimes it seems like the vibration of the mirror slap in in synch if you will the vibration giving the worse result. So to avoid this i use mirror lookup almost exclusively on my tripod shots.

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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackieS View Post
    thanks for that

    all very interesting

    with the H3d you could just leave it in a slightly higher iso every time just to gain a slightly faster shutter. I dont really see much difference between 100 and 200.

    Note that the H3D31 goes up to ISO 1600 now with the next firmware change
    Is that firmware released yet?

    They've been promising firmware to bring the 31 and 39 up to the s1600 and 800 ISO respectively that the Phase One P30+ and P45+ (same chips as the 31 and 39 respectively) have had since they launched.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
    Personal Portfolio

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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    I often shoot handheld

    is is a result, F8, 200 iso, 100 mm (zoom 50-110). It works pretty well, you have here an exemple with a 100 % detail
    Last edited by jerome; 1st September 2012 at 15:28.

  11. #11
    JEM_DTG
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    JackeiS,
    I will shoot sample images over the weekend, and post some crops for your review.

    The mirror delay function found in the current firmware versions of an H1, H2, H2D, H3D, and H3DII provides a surprising improvement to images shot at shutters speeds that would otherwise be considered too slow. As a matter of fact, the vibration elimination of this feature is most noticeable when shooting hand-held.

    And yes, the higher resolution systems provide a greater level of detail, but in turn, (due to smaller pixel size, circle of confusion, and blur circle diameter) can exhibit sharpness falloff (blur; focus or camera shake) quicker than a lower resolution system. Here we begin to examine extreme optical and physical technicalities, that will soon bore everyone but me and Doug ;-).

    I will try and provide some real-world test images, that will give you a better idea of the hand-hold ability of an H3DII.

    P.S. As of today, the ISO range for the H3DII camera is as follows:

    H3DII-31: ISO 100-800
    H3DII-39: ISO 50-400
    H3DII-39MS: ISO 50-400
    H3DII-50: ISO 50-400

    Regards,

    Jordan Miller
    DTG

    Quote Originally Posted by JackieS View Post
    anyone have any experience of handheld use of an H3d and say teh 50 and 35 lenses ?

    just wonder what sort of shutter speeds you can shoot at consistently and get sharp results (only using extra mirror delay)

    cheers

  12. #12
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JEM_DTG View Post
    And yes, the higher resolution systems provide a greater level of detail, but in turn, (due to smaller pixel size, circle of confusion, and blur circle diameter) can exhibit sharpness falloff (blur; focus or camera shake) quicker than a lower resolution system. Here we begin to examine extreme optical and physical technicalities, that will soon bore everyone but me and Doug ;-).
    DTG
    Lol, true enough. But to reemphasize: the higher resolution system will show sharpness falloff faster *when viewed at 100% resolution* but the higher resolution system will always be as good or better when viewed as a print or fit-to-screen.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
    Personal Portfolio

  13. #13
    JackieS
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JEM_DTG View Post
    P.S. As of today, the ISO range for the H3DII camera is as follows:

    H3DII-31: ISO 100-800
    H3DII-39: ISO 50-400
    H3DII-39MS: ISO 50-400
    H3DII-50: ISO 50-400

    Regards,

    Jordan Miller
    DTG


    yep thanks, im fully aware of that


    but as stated, consider it one stop higher i.e. HD31 1600, HD39 800 etc...

  14. #14
    JackieS
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JEM_DTG View Post
    JackeiS,
    I will shoot sample images over the weekend, and post some crops for your review.


    DTG


    please don't go out of your way or anything

    just interested to know what sort of speeds can be handheld without getting any motion blur... 1/60 ? 1/30 ?

  15. #15
    JackieS
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome View Post
    I often shoot handheld

    is is a result, F8, 200 iso, 100 mm (zoom 50-110). It works pretty well, you have here an exemple with a 100 % detail
    and shutter speed ?

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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackieS View Post
    and shutter speed ?
    1/180

    It's a H3DII 31

  17. #17
    jmvdigital
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    Well, I went out shooting this afternoon/evening. I shot some handheld stuff too. I just wanted to post this crop, as I was supremely impressed and surprised. I shot this handheld with the P30+, 80mm 2.8 @ 1/40s - f/9.5. I halved even the 35mm rule, and it's not that bad a result. Maybe I got lucky. Too bad the photo itself sucks. The stupid squirrel beat it off the electric box before I could recompose for a better shot.

    Anyway, 100% crop, default LR processing:
    Last edited by jmvdigital; 5th January 2010 at 15:01.

  18. #18
    plasticimage
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    Re: H3D handheld ?

    I can handhold my H2/P30+ (using the mirror delay at the 50ms setting) reliably down to 1/60 using my 50mm or 80mm lens. I also have the 150mm, but I never use it hand-held -- it's a big lens.

    The mirror delay makes a huge difference -- without it, I was unable to shoot at under 1/125 without a tripod.

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