Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

  1. #1
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Bill Caulfeild-Browne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Bruce Peninsula, Canada
    Posts
    2,535
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    184

    Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    I'm taking a trip to the Arctic in a few months, with frequent shore excursions in Zodiacs. It may not be possible to take a heavy tripod so I have been checking just how steadily I can hand-hold the DF. I normally use a tripod for just about everything.

    Basically I tested with a tripod and then without. I used a variety of speeds and a variety of lenses. My conclusion is that I'm just not steady enough to use any shutter speed less than 1/100th under any circumstances (even with the 45 mm or less) and that twice the focal length should be my absolute minimum guide if I want tripod-quality sharpness - that is, 1/160th with the standard lens or 1/300th with 150 mm.

    I'm interested in how others fare with hand-holding. Am I just too decrepit (I'm in my 60s!) or am I being realistic?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,069
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    83

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    I used the DF with Aptus 12 and primarily 80LS during a 10 day golfing trip to Scotland. As you might imagine, 20-30mph sustained winds and 50-60mph gusts were normal.

    I found that I needed to be at 1/125 to 1/160 to be almost certain of a shot. After the second day, I just set the camera to 1/125 and played with the aperture as much as I could. I did not really use anything longer than the 80mm, but I would guess you are quite right with the 1/2x.

    One thing you have going for you in the arctic would be the bright days as opposed to the clammy, wet, cloudy, windy mess I had to deal with, along with a golf swing that just refused to co-operate!

  3. #3
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    You're being very realistic. I'm getting very close to the midway point of 60 myself and no matter the focal length I'd never shoot hand held under 1/125 and in most cases faster. I'd also play with the ISO to see if I can gain speed.
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  4. #4
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,800
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    You're being very realistic. I'm getting very close to the midway point of 60 myself and no matter the focal length I'd never shoot hand held under 1/125 and in most cases faster. I'd also play with the ISO to see if I can gain speed.
    Come on guys ... trip of a lifetime and you want to handhold an 80MP back.

    How about a CF monopod with a RRS head...you become the other two legs.

    Works for me with a 300/400 lens and it packs anywhere and weighs next to nothing....great for sending the errant penguin packing...

    Bob
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  5. #5
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Practicing helps. So does giving up coffee--I am serious. I have handheld lots of camera and mostly large ones with and without mirrors. I find normal or wider is fairly easy, longer and the reciprocal of the shutter speed does not work for me. A monopod is not a bad idea, but I find it gives me about a stop more. I have taken some really small tripods as well, the results can be surprising. When in doubt, just take the picture--it might work out.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    W. NY, close to Toronto, far from NYC
    Posts
    1,427
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    I'm taking a trip to the Arctic in a few months, with frequent shore excursions in Zodiacs. It may not be possible to take a heavy tripod so I have been checking just how steadily I can hand-hold the DF. I normally use a tripod for just about everything.

    Basically I tested with a tripod and then without. I used a variety of speeds and a variety of lenses. My conclusion is that I'm just not steady enough to use any shutter speed less than 1/100th under any circumstances (even with the 45 mm or less) and that twice the focal length should be my absolute minimum guide if I want tripod-quality sharpness - that is, 1/160th with the standard lens or 1/300th with 150 mm.

    I'm interested in how others fare with hand-holding. Am I just too decrepit (I'm in my 60s!) or am I being realistic?
    Bill:

    If it makes you feel any better, I don't think it is age related. I'm 64 and can hold a camera as well as I ever could, which is not very well. A tripod or at least a monopod is indispensible. Try this test (which you likely know already): have the sun hit the front of a lens with a filter, project the reflection at a flat, shaded surface at a distance of at least 30 ft. Now watch the reflection and then ask a twenty-year-old to repeat the procedure.
    It's an experiment that convinced me to use a tripod below 1/500 (and a tripod would still be better).

    Tom
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  7. #7
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Bill, it's definitely doable. the only thing is ratcheting expectations as compared to when tripod mounted with mirror up. I think 2x reciprocal of lens focal is a good base point, but I have had success at direct reciprocal, but it's never a sure thing.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Dallas/Novosibirsk
    Posts
    632
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    well.. CF tripod and Acratech (lighter than RRS) head would be me advice. It just seems easier and less stressful than coming back and swearing at yerself..

  9. #9
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    I would opt for a small traveler sized tripod like Terry's, http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/gear-f...er-tripod.html or similar small lightweight tripod from Feisol or even RRS TQC14?

    Sure it may be otherwise unsuitable for the DF and IQ180 on its own, but you can "press into it" to steady it, and I bet this would be far more stable than a monopod, yet pretty close to the same to take along.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    819
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    A monopod can work for me if there is little or no wind. But, if it is windy, then I start to sway in the wind, and the monopod follows my lead. If it is gusty, forget about it.

    With regards to handholding the DF (with a P65), I've had horrible results with the 80D and 80LS. But for reasons unknown, I've had good results with the 110LS. I try to keep my shutter speeds at 2-3x the focal length if shooting handheld.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area, California
    Posts
    385
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    I hope you are also carrying Canon or Nikon for high ISO performance.

    DF & IQ is NOT suitable for every situation.

    It would be wise to make a sharper image with lower resolution & DR, than struggling with with DF & IQ180. I'm not sure what's the acceptable ISO of Sensor+.

    Another option is you can rent this (I never tried though):

    Kenyon Gyro Stabilizers

    When Phase One will wake up and provide the features of $3K cameras in $30K/$40K cameras?

  12. #12
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    I'd take a tripod but if I have to shoot handheld, I would...
    On a 44" print of your best landscape shot nobody is going to see a bit of movement!
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Totally doable but so is jumping from a moving car at 40mph.

    My point being, you'll never be totally sure of the outcome until after the event. You've got to decide if that's a risk worth taking?

    Tripod or at least a monopod is needed IMO.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #14
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Spain & Sweden
    Posts
    1,196
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    A light monopod is much better than nothing. Two things to remember, firstly use a fast enough shutter so that mirror slam does not smudge the image. Secondly, do not hold the camera too firm, it is easier not to sway if you hold it loose and smooth and just guide it into position. The heavier the camera, the looser the grip on a monopod.
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area, California
    Posts
    385
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    I would not take that risk in such expensive trip. Rather keep a (Canon / Nikon) backup as well. It will depend on how much wave you will encounter as well as available light.

    In Alaska, I have used AFD II & P45+ mostly @ ISO 200, shutter btw. 1/125 to 1/250. I had my Gitzo 2 series with me, however handheld was more comfortable from the boats, as entire platform swings on water.

    Same experiences were also shared by Michael Reichmann & Bill Atkinson when they were photographing Antartica from the cruise ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Totally doable but so is jumping from a moving car at 40mph.

    My point being, you'll never be totally sure of the outcome until after the event. You've got to decide if that's a risk worth taking?

    Tripod or at least a monopod is needed IMO.

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    173
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    If you can live with a little less compositional accuracy, then using the camera in MUP mode and with a 0.5s timer delay will minimize camera vibration. However on a boat environment this might have no effect at all...

  17. #17
    Member JonMo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Delta BC Canada
    Posts
    100
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Bill, you could try posting on a DSLR Video forum about a good chest harness stablizer.
    I used on for project with a 1D mark III and it was very good to help keep it steady.
    I can't remember which brand but it went on like a vest and held the cam at eye level.

  18. #18
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I'd take a tripod but if I have to shoot handheld, I would...
    On a 44" print of your best landscape shot nobody is going to see a bit of movement!
    +1

  19. #19
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoRepse View Post
    If you can live with a little less compositional accuracy, then using the camera in MUP mode and with a 0.5s timer delay will minimize camera vibration. However on a boat environment this might have no effect at all...
    I have found you are actually less steady when shooting blind with Mirror lock up as you camera is more likely to drift during the exposure.

  20. #20
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Bill,
    My trick for slow shutter without tripods has always been to take several frames of important things when possible. It seems one of the frames will be sharp even at impossible shutter speeds like 1/8 or 1/15 using a wide lens like the 50mm. Memory cards are cheap and the capture one focus mask tool really helps to quickly identify the sharp images and trash the others.

    Probably not worth it for just one trip, but I'll bet some of the tech cameras will be able to shoot at slower speeds than the DF body.

    My personal experience with the DF + Aptus 12 hand held was not good. I have much better luck with the AFi body possibly because the ergonomics suit me better and possibly because the camera is smoother. Still, I did not get there without some practice and testing as to what techniques worked best. I practiced trying different hand/body positions tethered to C1 with the focus mask on - this was really invaluable as it was immediate feedback as to what worked and what didn't. I guess with the IQ you can also just use the back's focus mask too for this? Even easier!


    Eric

  21. #21
    Not Available
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    471
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Kenyon Labs stabilizers

    A triopd on a Zodiac is pretty much useless.
    What you really need is a gyro stabalizer.

    You could do it with either a kenyon labs stabalizer or pretty much any Of the newer IS II or Vr Ii lenses from canon and Nikon.

    The kenyon gyros are amazing. They will even stabalize chopper vibration.

    Another thing you can do is use a v-grip air and grasp the front of the base of the v-grip in a particular way. put your thumb under the grip and you index+middle finger along the top of the protruding base fingers and thumb pointing to your right. This compresses your left wrist and quite effectively dampens vibration. It also lets you more effectively push your hands against eachother. I get more stability this way. the oversized nature of the v-grip helps too when using this "method".

    Yoga also helps tremendously. Even without becoming an expert. In particular one excercise. Its the one where you hold you arms straight infront of you and place one albow over the other bringing your for arms up into a twisted forearm praying position. It stretches an stabalizes the shoulders neck and arm. It's a golden excecise for photographers. Best of all you can do it just about anywhere. It takes a while to get there for most people, but starting in a very hot shower or sauna helps

    Another thing that helps is using someones shoulder as a make shift tripod. If you are static an ergonomic shoulder
    fitting. Used in motion pictures all the time, but the cener of gravity of the camera has to be centered over the shoulder

  22. #22
    Not Available
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    471
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    There is also another method for obtaining stable images in the Ocean. It's probably not applicable here due to space problems. Anyway this is how it works.

    It is a submerged bouy with a weight at the end and an several stabilization disks on it.

    Choppy water pretty much is only moving at the surface. A few feet under the water is often very very stable.

    I have used this system for shooting both stills and motion picture. It's almost creepy how well it works.

    It sort of feels like a giant spoon in porridge.

    I does have a certain risk element to it so I only recommend using it with a water housing or less expensive gear. A catermaran also makes this far more practical.

    The system works somewhat like rocker stoppers for boats.

    http://www.fishing-boats.info/rockers.htm

  23. #23
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Bill Caulfeild-Browne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Bruce Peninsula, Canada
    Posts
    2,535
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    184

    Re: Hand-holding the DF/IQ180

    Thank you all for your input. I'm not actually expecting to shoot much from zodiacs, if at all; I only mentioned them in the context that I may not be able to carry much gear on them. And I have found that a crappy little tripod is worse than no tripod at all.

    I'm going to play with a monopod and see how much that helps - and use many of the suggestions here - multiple shots in particular work well for me, the second release often is sharper than the first!

    Thanks everybody.

    Bill

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •