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Thread: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

  1. #51
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    D800 would be my current choice. It is an amazing camera and the DR and shadow cleanness is just stunning. ( that's coming from someone using a IQ180)

    I can only hope MFDB catch up in sensor quality, in regards to noise and DR.

    If I would only be shooting landscapes and no architecture it would be an easy choice.

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    Senior Member eleanorbrown's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Wow, amazing to hear from an iq180 user! I have the P65 plus and have the d800e on order. Looking forward to comparing the two. Eleanor
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    D800 would be my current choice. It is an amazing camera and the DR and shadow cleanness is just stunning. ( that's coming from someone using a IQ180)

    I can only hope MFDB catch up in sensor quality, in regards to noise and DR.

    If I would only be shooting landscapes and no architecture it would be an easy choice.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Christopher: your architecture photography is mind blowing. Will follow your blog going forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    D800 would be my current choice. It is an amazing camera and the DR and shadow cleanness is just stunning. ( that's coming from someone using a IQ180)

    I can only hope MFDB catch up in sensor quality, in regards to noise and DR.

    If I would only be shooting landscapes and no architecture it would be an easy choice.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    BTW, I would not recommend photographic equipment as a financial investment like stock.
    it depends...

    World Record for the most expensive camera (2,16 Million Euro incl. premium price) - YouTube

    21st WestLicht camera auction 12th of May sets new records

    2,160,000,- Euro for a Leica camera!

  5. #55
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    Many of you own Nikon D800 and MF Tech cameras.

    May I ask what are the factors influences your decision to use a particular system, when you own both, specifically for Landscape Photography?.

    I'm using my Phase One DF with IQ160 and Mamiya 75-150 "D" & 55mm. I shot some with Mamiya 28mm "D", however finally I sold it. I was thinking to move to MF technical camera for wide angles.

    However since Nikon came up with 36Mp DSLR, and 35mm format has better DOF than MF, better low light performance (when required), and availability of Nikon 24mm f/3.5 PC-E, does it make any sense to invest in MF technical cameras for Landscape Photography anymore?

    I would like to sit back and listen what you have to say.

    Thanks,

    Subrata
    I think it does make sense, your IQ160 and a Alpa TC,wold make a great hiking camera. Gazwas makes note of the joy of the process, and for some, it really seems more contemplative, and thus a true art form. Landscapes images shot with these type of cameras, allow the viewer to "explore within" the photograph
    Landscape photography should do just that.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    You need to check out the Rodenstock HR 32 -- relative large IC and extremely sharp.
    thanks. I know about that lens and it is great but a little wide heavy, expensive and fragile. I hope for a super digitar 35mm from Schneider with 80-85 mm real ic at f/11, would probably not need to be as heavy or expensive as the rodie 32mm. Meanwhile it seems the old 35 is good enough.

  7. #57
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Guy,

    I disagree with your comments about eBay. Common sense dictates purchases only from reputable sellers with good feedback. For me, when purchasing more higher end items, the items must be within the US, or your host country. it's easier to track too. eBay is also a good place to gauge camera price indicators because there's usually more product. Supply and demand.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Johnny its usually folks with inexperience or little common sense. I just got a paypal notice for instance that surely is a scam. It's not recognizing stuff like this is usually the problem. That's all I'm pointing out . I may list my Cambo lens to reach a broader audience myself. I'm still kind of firm on value as a guide. Just seems a lot of reasons for selling variables that bug me. For instance say someone sold something at 60 percent off retail and you need to sell the same thing. Do you really want something that went in a desperate sale to be a real guide when your going to suck wind. This value works both ways and I know the market will determine price but if the value drops so hard for non industry reasons than that disparate or hidden problem sale that a lot of people do than it creates a real issue. I'm not going to point out anything specific here but I just saw something take a huge hit when that really should not have happened. My issue is the variability of the sellers as we have no idea of the situation. That's all I am pointing out. If we go by used retail prices from retail stores and dealers it's just more of non variable issue. It's what the market will bare on a more consistent level. Johnny lets be honest for example you want to sell your H40 do you really want to deal with a sale that completely dipped below market value and you have to price accordingly when you are dealing with sale that has variability in it. It's a bad standard to go by is all I'm saying.

    Just look at this forums buy and sell and let's just put in the word Leica here. Right now it's inflated pricing . It's a liitle scary but for sellers great for buyers not so great. That's a product line that needs stabilization to get back to normal value pricing. Obviously we know the reasons but it's truly over priced right now. Now you look at a dealers pricing if they have them and it's mostly at the correct pricing . It just takes out the variability of private sellers. We just know what's is driving there sale.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Again you have to look at this also as a seller and not just a buyer and get low prices. It works both ways. Just not a big fan of eBay determining pricing.

    Okay gotta run doing a really cool product demo today from a member that flew in from NY. It's really cool so I will tell you guys all about. Should be fun.
    It does relate to tech cams and hopefully this is a good answer for them
    Enjoy the day
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    D800 or MF tech camera?

    I thing the difference in quality is much, much smaller than the difference in how they work in the field. Therefore, the decision should primarily be based on preferred workflow, not quality.

    Personally I find working with a tech camera to be very liberating. Some people would see no lightmeter, autofocus or TTL viewing as incredibly arcane and nuts. Find out which type you prefer and do not look back!

    Dave
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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I think it does make sense, your IQ160 and a Alpa TC,wold make a great hiking camera. Gazwas makes note of the joy of the process, and for some, it really seems more contemplative, and thus a true art form. Landscapes images shot with these type of cameras, allow the viewer to "explore within" the photograph
    Landscape photography should do just that.
    Johnny,
    It’s not the joy of the post process, it’s the necessity of the it, exactly like the time of the wet darkroom, when photographers had to spend a lot of time in the darkroom, sometimes even a few days, just to make one good print. I don’t have IQ 160 but I do have D800E on preorder, and I trust experienced photographers like Guy and Jack who have both systems and have done extensive test on them and believe them when they say”D800 is very good but still not there”.
    When it comes to the price, if someone can afford to buy and use it , why not. In fact I believe in a very short time the MF manufactures will catch up and widen the gap again.
    I agree with you that “Landscapes images shot with these type of cameras, allow the viewer to explore within the photograph “, but it is not the only way to do it.
    It also can be done sometimes even better with smaller cameras and with the help of new technologies.
    We know this fact that right out of the camera, the Tech camera files are superior to DSLR’s, and there is no argue about it, but Tech cameras have also their own limitations and are using the technology of hundred years ago, and that’s exactly their problem, these types of cameras are not fighting the smaller size cameras, they are fighting the digital technology, especially the new technologies of the last ten years.
    Landscape and Architectural photographers who usually shoot static subjects are the ones who can take the most advantage of these new technologies.
    To express myself better I’m posting a picture of Racetrack that I shot last February during the Death Valley Workshop. I made this test just to see what are my choices in this kind of situations.
    The angle of view is about 140 degrees (diagonal) and 100 degrees in each direction,
    50 degrees swing to the right and left, and 50 degrees tilt up and down, the closest distance to the camera is about 3 feet and the distance to the mountains is about 600 yard. This image is a stitch of 48 pictures and shot with M4/3 and kit lens, it took about 8 minutes to set up and shoot all 48 pictures and it took about 5 hours of post processing to finish the job.
    As you notice there is no light falloff in the corners, no CA and no perspective deformations of the lens, and it is sharp corner to corner. I am sure D800 would have handled it much better, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no way to take such a picture in one shot with any type of camera.
    Photographers did not have this type of luxury even 12 years ago, it’s a good time to be a photographer, and yes, Post Processing is the new wet darkroom and is here to stay with us.
    ________
    Manouch



    Last edited by manouch shirzad; 19th May 2012 at 11:55.
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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Manouch,

    That would make a lovely 10'x10' print.

    --Matt

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Honestly when Manouch came to his first workshop with us . I was completely blown away on how he shoots these images and than goes about processing and fine tuning the images. Not only are they technically great he has a incredible eye to go with it. He taught me a lot in a week. I absolutely love how he does this.

    I can't wait to see how he does with a higher mpx sensor doing this like the D800E. No kidding we could all take a lesson from him on how to actually go about creating art.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Matt,
    Definitely you will see a big print of this picture, I am still waiting to see which pictures you like for bartering.LOL
    ________
    Manouch
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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Guy,
    Thanks a lot for your kind words, it has always been encouraging for me, I am the one who has learned a lot from your workshops and should thank you. Hope to use d800 in the next workshop. I am already missing that atmosphere.
    ________
    Manouch

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Zion in October is the plan right now
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by manouch shirzad View Post
    Johnny,
    Its not the joy of the post process, its the necessity of the it,

    I made this test just to see what are my choices in this kind of situations.
    The angle of view is about 140 degrees (diagonal) and 100 degrees in each direction,

    This image is a stitch of 48 pictures and shot with M4/3 and kit lens, it took about 8 minutes to set up and shoot all 48 pictures and it took about 5 hours of post processing to finish the job.
    Very nice, but what were the other kit options for this scene?

    My Schneider Apo-Digitar 47XL is only 100 degrees, but with shift-and-stitch It could produce a similar picture from farther back. I think that Hex-shift-and-stiching with a 200MS would give over half a Giga-Pixel... would the retro-focus ultra-wides do any better?

    I could use my H4D-60 and 300mm lens for pan-and-stitch... medium format and pan-and-stitch are not mutually exclusive!

    My GH2 (micro 4/3) and my leica-made Novoflex 400mm (I thick this lens head is better than my Novoflex 640) might produce better results, but with more pictures and more processing time... and this lens could be used on a ff 800, halving the number of pictures required. There are modern long lenses, but I have had the Novoflex since the early 1970s (I bought it for my world trip in 1975).

    A 10 * 8 or larger camera would do it in one shot, but it would be interesting to see how the res compared.

    Would a 10 grand Mac Pro computer have taken much less processing time, or what did you use? ...and what software and tripod head did you use?

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Manouch,

    Nicely stated...Wonderful photograph!

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Manouch -- I want a print of your Racetrack. I will email you offline next week to arrange a purchase. GREAT job!

    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    To Echo Dave's comment above, I spent a week in Death Valley with an M9 and a Cambo/IQ160 outfit. I used both quite a bit, and the pictures from each look NOTHING alike. Not at all because of quality of the equipment, but because of the way of working they two systems suggested. Could one switch their roles with some effort? Sure, but what would be the point? Each excels at what it is, and they are different.

    Rather than reposting my examples, I suggest just looking at the relevant "Fun with.." fora here.

    Best,

    Matt

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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post


    but with shift-and-stitch It could produce a similar picture.
    I think that Hex-shift-and-stiching
    I could use my H4D-60 and 300mm lens for pan-and-stitch...

    Dick,
    You missed the whole point and a few times you answered your own questions, this picture was an extreme case to show how easily a five hundred dollar camera WITH THE HELP OF THE NEW TECHNOLOGIES can beat the old systems.
    If I have to spend hours and hours of my time in front of the computer for post processing so what is the point of paying that much money for Thech camera and the back.
    I understand you have very nice and expensive equipments and I wish to see a ONE SHOT picture with a FOV of 140 degrees, the closest subject at 3 feet and further subjects at 600 yards, no light falloff in the corners, no lens distortion and sharp from corner to corner. After all we are in the business of visual arts not liberal arts.
    I believe this is not the right thread to talk about computer stuffs but in short, I am on the pc side, made my own computer, Intel i7, 24 Gig of RAM, for less than four thousand dollars, the biggest image that I took is about 17 Gigabites and my computer opens it in about 34 seconds.
    Best.
    _______
    Manouch

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Manouch,

    I would like to echo others who have complimented you on your image.... it really deserves all of the accolades. Your camera already has a relatively deep dof but am wondering if you used focus stacking for the added dof.

    Again.... a really great image.

    Victor

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by manouch shirzad View Post
    Dick,
    You missed the whole point and a few times you answered your own questions, this picture was an extreme case to show how easily a five hundred dollar camera WITH THE HELP OF THE NEW TECHNOLOGIES can beat the old systems.
    I am fully aware that one of the main advantages of pan-and-stitch is that it enables one to produce hi-res pictures with low-budget kit, but does that make it foolish to ask what other kit choices would produce a similar or better result? ...in less time?
    If I have to spend hours and hours of my time in front of the computer for post processing so what is the point of paying that much money for Thech camera and the back
    To save hours and hours of time - or do you do it to take up your time?

    Of course... you have the "camera club" attitude - using "expensive" equipment is not allowed. How much do you think a Tech camera back costs? - I just bought an 88 Mpx MS back for 2k. Medium Format Digital can be affordable... but it took me about a decade, on a budget, to get all the bits to put together a Sinar Medium Format Digital view camera.
    I understand you have very nice and expensive equipments and I wish to see a ONE SHOT picture with a FOV of 140 degrees, the closest subject at 3 feet and further subjects at 600 yards, no light falloff in the corners, no lens distortion and sharp from corner to corner. After all we are in the business of visual arts not liberal arts.
    As I said, I think large format film would be the best option, and, as I said, my 47XL only goes to about 100 degrees corner to corner, and only with stitching.

    I am aware that pan-and-stitch can give much wider angles of view than anything else.

    As I said, I would be (thinking about) using the same technique if I needed a very wide angle of view.
    My Novoflex (which I have had for nearly 40 years) has the bellows focusing option, without which I think the closest focusing distance is 19 feet!

    I have a tilt adapter convertor to go between my GH2 and Nikon lenses, and I wonder how the software would cope with tilt?
    I believe this is not the right thread to talk about computer stuffs but in short, I am on the pc side, made my own computer, Intel i7, 24 Gig of RAM, for less than four thousand dollars, the biggest image that I took is about 17 Gigabites and my computer opens it in about 34 seconds.
    Best.
    _______
    Manouch
    I still think it is relevant to ask or wonder if much time could have been saved by using a more expensive computer... and one of the problems with trying to get good large stitched images with low-cost camera kit is that the computer and software might cost ten times as much as the camera.

    As you say, there are projects for which pan-and-stitch is the only option... whatever kit you have. Why not consider how it might have been done (better or more quickly) with more expensive equipment?

    Would the commercial photographers here have used a big lens and a ff 35mm for this job, or MF pan-and stitch or what?

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by manouch shirzad View Post
    This image is a stitch of 48 pictures and shot with M4/3 and kit lens, it took about 8 minutes to set up and shoot all 48 pictures and it took about 5 hours of post processing to finish the job.

    ________
    Manouch

    Manouch,
    Your stitched-photos are intriguing. I'm curious as to what focal length you typically shoot these multi-shots at? Any recommendations for a good stitching head (with multi-row capabilities)? Would love to see more of your work.

    Glen

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    This is slightly off topic but I have a question for those of you who have both a medium format digital back and the D800 or D800e. I have the 800e on order and have been shooting with Phase backs since 2005 (P25 on up to current P65+). There is a certain "creamy quality" at base iso that these backs show..even the P25 at 22 megapixels...especially evident in skies and water, etc. How do the new Nikon 800 series cameras compare at base iso of 100 in this respect. Forget about a tech cam advantages and resolution etc...I'm just interested in the smoothness of the d800 series files at bass iso compared to digital backs. any insights welcome and thanks!! Eleanor

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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Zion in October is the plan right now
    Guy,
    Now I miss Zion and Workshop. LOL.
    In Oct. Zion is closed to private vehicles, I'm sure you will check it,
    Looking forward for the Workshop. I really miss this park.
    Best,
    _______
    Manouch

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Jack,
    thanks a lot. Its my pleasure and honor to print a copy for you,
    Please email me for the detail of the size and material of the print.
    ________
    Manouch

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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    if you used focus stacking

    Victor

    Victor,
    Thanks a lot, it was a late afternoon on cloudy day and no time for taking more pictures so no stacking, just changed the focus in each frame.
    ________
    Manouch

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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenC View Post
    I'm curious as to what focal length you typically shoot these multi-shots at?
    Glen
    Glen,
    Thanks a lot, I make my decisions for the focal length based on the angle of view and the size of the final file that I need, in general 2X the normal focal length of the camera works fine for me. I use “Nodal Ninja 3” head, it’s fine if you are on a budget,
    Nodal Ninja Product Selector
    and if money is not an issue I like “VR Drive full”
    VR Drive
    If you click on my name you can see some of my pictures, they are all stitched.
    _______
    Manouch

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Manouch,
    Thanks for the info and links. I've been reading about the different stitching heads. I am wondering about using stitching for interior shots. I'm not sure if the result would have curved horizontal lines or not. Need to research it bit more, but I noticed your fire escape shot looks great-totally in focus and staright vertical and horizontal lines.

    Glen

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    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Zion in October is the plan right now
    That would be a great spot.
    Bryan

    You dont take a photograph, you make it. Ansel Adams

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    D800 would be my current choice. It is an amazing camera and the DR and shadow cleanness is just stunning. ( that's coming from someone using a IQ180)

    I can only hope MFDB catch up in sensor quality, in regards to noise and DR.

    If I would only be shooting landscapes and no architecture it would be an easy choice.
    Interesting to hear this from an IQ180 user. When I saw the first proper files with the D800 I was very impressed. The most significant improvement that the d800 made is the cleanliness of the shadows combined with great dynamic range. I find that great shadows are the foundation of a great photo from a tonal point of view. The way you can open up the blacks is as close as you can get to a water bath processing with black and white film. You can open up the shadows and still have areas of deep crisp blacks.

    While the increase to 36 MP is great it's not as significant as the DR and cleanliness of the shadows.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Saw this last week but was too busy to respond until now.

    If I were faced with a decision between the D800E or a tech camera I'd have to say the tech camera would win out. In my opinion. as great/nice as the D800 is it is still nevertheless a 35mm format and medium/large format wins out in landscape photography. That said, my wife still shoots landscape with a 1DsIII; she'll occasionally use the DF but never the WRS as it's too slow and complicated for her. Here again, different strokes...

    Subrate, you use basically the same back as I do with the IQ160 (I still use a P65) with the added huge benefit of the IQ perfectly suited for tech cam use.

    There's several advantages to using a tech camera for landscape, among them is the lens quality and flat stitching for large finished prints. You won't have to worry about the nodal point the lens with flat stitching as the back moves around the lens.

    While film might still be a good option it only remain an option if you retain total control of it and process it in your wet darkroom and print in a wet darkroom. In my opinion, as soon as you send the film out to be developed you lose control. Then added to the fact that you need to scan the image into a digital format you lose information. Digital shooting with a proper system gives you total control over your image from capture to print - that is unless you have the wet darkroom and can still print. Again that's just my opinion.....

    The the next question of which tech camera is better opens yet another can of worms.


    Don
    Don Libby
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Thank you everyone for your thought full reply! Now I read GetDPI forum throughout the day!.... I know my boss is not on this forum, so I'm safe! LOL!

    Subrata
    Last edited by subrata1965; 23rd May 2012 at 14:27.
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Saw this last week but was too busy to respond until now.
    The the next question of which tech camera is better opens yet another can of worms.


    Don
    Don, I remember my Canon 1Ds with TS/E lens. I was using Jack Flesher's method of stitching by shifting the lens and body in opposite direction. The process was outlined in Digital Outback Photo.

    Technical camera will be lot easier in that respect.

    Thanks.

    Subrata

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    I have a hard time to see why tech cam flat stitching would be better than 35mm camera (say a D800) on a high quality pano head with lens at nodal point (it is not *that* hard to tune). Tech cam stitching with geared movements is much slower compared to a click-stopped pano head. There's the stitching backs from Kapture group et al of course, but not many use them. Heavy to carry around.

    With the pano head you always use the best center portion of the lens. Projection is chosen in post-processing, and for wide-angle landscape panos cylindrical is often better then rectilinear, but you can do rectilinear as well of course. There'll be some pixel stretching but you use over-resolution to handle that.

    If one's doing composite images with stitching (and to some extent focus stacking) I think the gap between 35mm digital and MF tech cam is considerably smaller.

    The main advantage for me using my Linhof Techno is the one-shot image. To me a one-shot image is higher valued than a composite, I just think it is more "true" photography. I have done stitching and large prints from it so I'm not against it, but I'm most proud of my one-shot images. And for one-shot images there is a large value of shift with high quality large image circles and tilt/swing and I think MF tech cams have a quite good lead there.

    For me as an amateur price/performance has importance too. I bought almost all my MF gear second hand, so my 33 megapixel tech cam system costs "only" about twice the corresponding D800 system would have cost new. Yes price/performance is worse even when comparing second hand MF with new 35mm but it is a long-term investment, low enough purchase price for me to handle and the lens/flexibility performance aspect is better.

    I think tech cams and lenses are reasonably priced. But the often silly high prices of new MFDBs is a real turnoff, here in Sweden a new 33 megapixel back costs €25,000 with VAT ($32,000), which is about 10 times a 36 megapixel D800. If it is not possible to make entry-level MFDBs substantially cheaper I think the whole MF business is threatened in the long-term. 2 - 3 higher price for similar performance I think is ok, but not 10 times... I should say though that Leaf pricing in Sweden seems totally broken. Would I buy a new MFDB today it would be a Hasselblad CFV-50, it costs €14,000 with VAT here, that is despite 50 megapixels much cheaper than the Leaf Aptus-II 7 and also Phase One P45+.
    Last edited by torger; 24th May 2012 at 01:06.
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