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Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
What Wayne said.

And I do not think it's an either/or situation -- why not use both if you can? And for many who cannot afford/justify the expense for MF entry, then it's not even worth discussing.

Clearly, MF gives a superior file and has superior lenses available at least in moderately wide to moderate tele ranges. But in relative terms, a $3000 body with a $1000 lens that is almost disposable relative to a MF tech outfit with similar lens, and therefore what I'd choose if shooting in very harsh environs.

I keep coming back to the old expression, "Horses for courses." But in this case I respect and understand not everyone is capable of owning a thoroughbred racehorse. And in this case, the Nikon newcomer filly is a very -- make that extremely -- viable and attractive alternative.

Cheers,
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Its like I have been saying in the wide angle area nothing can touch a tech cam but on the other hand nothing can touch a Nikon for its reach either. I'm all for having both and if you can do both or can't get in MF than a Nikon will cover you but with limitations of course and same for MF why I think if your dead serious about image quality and having everything covered like glue than both of them make sense and as Jack says "Horses for courses." and as trite as that sounds its true.
 

gazwas

Active member
It seems to me that with the introduction of the D800 we have passed the tipping point in digital cameras. I started using 4x5 and MF format cameras before digital got started and have waited out the digital era until something came along that was both as good in terms of IQ and that I could afford. I was about to pull the trigger on getting a MF camera that had a full frame sensor and was leaning toward getting a HB. Then I started poking around this forum. I find a post from year or two back from Guy Mancuso saying that he doesn't care much for 35mm. Then the D800 comes out, he gets one, and has to admit it's pretty darn good. Time passes. Now his MF back is for sale but not for technical reasons, which I can understand. Yet, the back is for sale. Hmm. I ordered my D800E a few days ago.
Hardly fair to bring that up as we all say things publicly, then have a change of heart at some point down the line. I openly discussed on here when I first got back into MFD after a short break that I would go tech camera only as my test of the DF and Phase lenses was very disappointing.

I'll openly admit I now also own a DF with a small selection of Phase and Schneider lenses and enjoy using them very much.

The world changes, life changes, cameras change......
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
FYI my back is now sold for a brand new IQ 140 back. Im in the game and not getting out anytime soon but i do need to sell my Cambo Schneider 60mm TS to get a 43mm now. Bottom line for me the adjustment bureau has struck and I will have the best of both worlds. Trust me folks there is no shame in a IQ 140 , i shot the P40 for almost 2 years but hated the crop but now i don't shoot the DF so it won't matter but my Rodie 28mm just went from 18mm to 21mm guess i will start punching walls out. LOL

My laptop will love me again
 

SergeiR

New member
Guy, it doesnt matter what you say on that matter, IMHO. People who feel like finding conspiracy behind every move - will do it anyway :) Just keep shooting, as you do :)


As for me, unless i get same deal as i had with D700 - no point in getting D800. It wont do me any good (nor they need me to review it , i bet), as i dont like video, and when i feel like punching 100+mp in single shot - i can do it with 4x5 (1.2G raw files, thank you very much..) , thank you very much. For landscapes in colour , wide aspect - i love MDFB.. And for certain kind of portraiture shoot.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I know I think folks where getting scared since I dropped down and trust me no reason I just need some cash and readjust some things too. Unfortunately Pros have to do this stuff all the time to adjust to the economic climate and client needs. But truth is also i am a big *** fan of MF and will always will be. Just look what we all have created here on the MF forum( thats a credit to our members). We are damn proud this is the place to get in the know. I want to also thank everyone for there support and friendship here. We are a family and i sure as hell like being in it.
 

lmeiners

New member
Hardly fair to bring that up as we all say things publicly, then have a change of heart at some point down the line. I openly discussed on here when I first got back into MFD after a short break that I would go tech camera only as my test of the DF and Phase lenses was very disappointing.

I'll openly admit I now also own a DF with a small selection of Phase and Schneider lenses and enjoy using them very much.

The world changes, life changes, cameras change......
I wasn't meaning to be impolite. My point was that when someone with a history in large and MF, and as obviously concerned about the quality of their images as Guy is, comes out and says that he can accomplish 90% of what he wants to do, with a camera that costs 1/6 or less of that of a high end MF system, then that means things have changed a lot. And that it's going to get even better (or worse depending on your point of view).

Larry
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I really think Nikon has a great start here the files are very very nice , its not totally there but come next round of the d800 version II the MF market better wake up too. The adjustment bureau is on there tail too.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Congratulations on the sale, Guy.

For Landscape, I'm not feeling the urge to drop the M9 for the D800. As lenses have a much longer life than sensors, I'm still thinking Leica S or Schneider/Rodenstock tech cam lenses. Sadly for the wallet, I've used the latter.

--Matt
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Congratulations on the sale, Guy.

For Landscape, I'm not feeling the urge to drop the M9 for the D800. As lenses have a much longer life than sensors, I'm still thinking Leica S or Schneider/Rodenstock tech cam lenses. Sadly for the wallet, I've used the latter.

--Matt
I'd agree. Though with the caveat that the best value retention is usually with lenses that:
- aren't highly specific to a specific electronic platform (e.g. manual control and manual focus will never be outdated)
- are really high quality, even on the latest and greatest sensors of today (which most of the rodenstock HR / schneider XL series and most Leica lenses are)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just not going to beat these tech lenses. They are just too damn good and well corrected as well. Corner sharpness is unparalleled to anything out there. No lens curvature to deal with.
 

torger

Active member
I can't say I was thrilled to find out that there really is no top of the line 35mm lens for the tech cameras. 35mm rodie apo-sironar digital is not so sharp, schneider 35 digitar has only ~75mm effective image circle due too rather poor quality the last 15 (field curvature), and the rodie 35mm digaron-s is only 70mm so shift is very limited.

There are many fantastic tech camera lenses out there but there are gaps too. Being strong on the shiftable wides I think is tech cameras most important feature compared to the competition. The options are a liiiittle bit too narrow today I think. Not as bad as 35mm digital of course, but as the competition gets tougher stronger advantages need to be provided.
 

torger

Active member
Oh, another comment. I'm actually genuinely worried about the future of MF. I would not be surprised if it in ten years from now is gone unless we start to see some serious development (lower prices, CMOS sensors etc). I don't think it will be enough to be a little bit better in a narrow use case when DSLRs can do it almost as good to 1/5th of the price and be better in all other use cases.

If the majority of professionals that used MF before start choosing high res 135 DSLRs like the D800 instead it will be over. I don't think MF companies can survive on fine art photographers alone.

Well, the tech camera business itself don't need large business since it is all mechanical stuff, 8x10" film cameras are still made, but how small can the market for MF digital backs be an still support development? What do you think?
 
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Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
I think each cameras have their own advantages/disadvantages.
P1 IQ 180 is still the king of landscape photography (only type of photography I've known except nature photography) either with the P1 DF or tech cam. I am a small Asian guy but I don't find them too heavy at all- 28mm (or broken AF 35mm cost me only $175), 55mm, 110 and 150mm (or 75-150mm for 55, 110, 150) and I am good to go. I can walk for miles with them and know I can have as big prints as I wish and spend less time in Photoshop.
Nikon D800 - many lenses to use for and you can trade them without loosing money. G/Zeiss lenses are great.although my 25-year-old 80-200 AI is still good to go. 200mm f/2 VR is the best. ISO 1600 is still awesome and make night photography much more productive and enjoyable. I don't see I need D800e.
Canon 5D M III - to use with Canon super-telephoto lenses which are much cheaper than the Nikon's so you get the 5DMIII for free. I've never lost money by buying a second-hand 300-600mm. They always hold their values (just put the coat on). You pretty much use these lenses for free. The 17mm and 24mm TS are great too.
My biggest benefits of D800 is that I can buy MF and Canon lenses with less money nowsday. I just got the SK 110mm for only $2500 (almost the same price as new 70-200 VR II).
Thanks for the D800!
Pramote
 

FredBGG

Not Available
I'd agree. Though with the caveat that the best value retention is usually with lenses that:
- aren't highly specific to a specific electronic platform (e.g. manual control and manual focus will never be outdated)
- are really high quality, even on the latest and greatest sensors of today (which most of the rodenstock HR / schneider XL series and most Leica lenses are)

??????
Not my experience or what I see out there in the real world.


Schneider Super Angulon 72XL 5.6 sold for $ 895
BH price: $2,064.95

Nikon 85mm 1.4G used on ebay sold for $1,600.00
BH price: $1,699.95

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM II Lens on ebay sold for $ 2,100
New it's $2,299.00 at BH

Just picked up a Schneider 480mm f/8.4 Apo-Symmar L Lens mint for $ 850
New that's $4,219.95 at BH

Hasselblad H 35mm used mint with warranty on ebay $2,200.00
New at BH $4,395.00

Medium format and large format lenses show large price drops for those selling them used.
It's medium format digital that's taking the largest hit.

I can see things dropping more as photography shot the likes of the D800E start to show up in major publications.
 
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FredBGG

Not Available
If shooting landscape you are not shooting many shots large format film will look far better.

8x10 film still looks far better than digital.

645 MF digital is not really that different from a high end 35mm DSLR. Only twice the capture area. 8x10 film is a whole different world.

You can shoot a lot of film for the price of an IQ180. Fine art in a digital file still does not attract the same league of prices that traditional film and prints do.

Digital has inflated the market deflating the prices of digital art.
 
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Paratom

Well-known member
If I still had a digital back for my tech camera I would prefer the Tech camera over the D800.
Probably the D800 is much betterthan the d3x, but when I shot the d3x side by side with a MFDB I nearly allways prefered the output from the DB.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
??????
Not my experience or what I see out there in the real world.


Schneider Super Angulon 72XL 5.6 sold for $ 895
BH price: $2,064.95

Nikon 85mm 1.4G used on ebay sold for $1,600.00
BH price: $1,699.95

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM II Lens on ebay sold for $ 2,100
New it's $2,299.00 at BH

Just picked up a Schneider 480mm f/8.4 Apo-Symmar L Lens mint for $ 850
New that's $4,219.95 at BH

Hasselblad H 35mm used mint with warranty on ebay $2,200.00
New at BH $4,395.00

Medium format and large format lenses show large price drops for those selling them used.
It's medium format digital that's taking the largest hit.

I can see things dropping more as photography shot the likes of the D800E start to show up in major publications.
I'm sorry but e-bay is the absolute worst guidelines to go by as far as price. There simply is no standard. People sell there worst gear on eBay usually damaged, going out of business, over priced and just simply desperate people and a ton of fraud. IMHO prices are completely irrelevant . The only thing that happens is people use this data as a bargaining chip. Happens to me all the time and I tell them goodbye every time on a sale. Fred fair warning your going to get your *** burned at some point with eBay I can promise you this. Your money but when a brick shows up don't come crying. I would not spend over a grand on eBay anymore it's gotten that bad. Yes at one time it was pretty safe. It's just too risky now. Not saying there are always bad buyers and sellers but there is always a crook lurking. Sorry as a forum owner and someone that's been on Internet , forums and such I just seen some bad stuff happen. Believe me I get a lot if emails for advice on this stuff. Buy from people you know have good feedback or see a dealer. Especially dealing at this level of systems. There are complete legit sellers too but you don't always know who they are. I just can't recommend it myself given I am co-owner of this place it's too much of a trust factor I can't count on giving people good advice on what to buy and where. I will always side on a safe place or person to buy from. I get PMs all the time of our members asking about other members here. So I say this with some experience.
 
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