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Thread: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

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    Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Many of you own Nikon D800 and MF Tech cameras.

    May I ask what are the factors influences your decision to use a particular system, when you own both, specifically for Landscape Photography?.

    I'm using my Phase One DF with IQ160 and Mamiya 75-150 "D" & 55mm. I shot some with Mamiya 28mm "D", however finally I sold it. I was thinking to move to MF technical camera for wide angles.

    However since Nikon came up with 36Mp DSLR, and 35mm format has better DOF than MF, better low light performance (when required), and availability of Nikon 24mm f/3.5 PC-E, does it make any sense to invest in MF technical cameras for Landscape Photography anymore?

    I would like to sit back and listen what you have to say.

    Thanks,

    Subrata

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Wasn't this discussed at length when the D800 was announced?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    I have a D800, D800E and IQ180.

    The camera I chose would depend on the exact sort of landscape, the size of the intended print, and how far I had to walk to get to it! If the scene suited a wide lens AND needed movements, I would choose the Phase back on my Cambo with whatever wide lens suited the scene. If I needed a very large print, over about 36 inches on the long side, I would always choose the Phase.

    For everything else I would choose the D800E. There are lenses available at all focal lengths that will suit this sort of work and make very good (if not always utterly perfect) use of the sensor. The weakness is that there are no very good wide angle lenses with movements. The 24PC-E largely gets a bad rap on the D800 though Ming Thein is a valiant voice in its defence and must have an extremely good copy of the lens. The longer PC-E lenses, I have not tried, but sound better than adequate.

    But if I had to hike a long way (more than a mile round trip) I would not even think of taking the Phase gear. Not unless I heard of a 2,000 metre tall waterfall surrounded by dinosaurs and naked virgins that no one else had ever photographed.
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Wasn't this discussed at length when the D800 was announced?
    Yes. But people have used it now!
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Both can produce fantastic imagery!

    IMO the decision boils down to what gives you the most kicks.

    Give me a beautifully engineered Rm3di and some of those funny looking LF lenses any day of the week over any 35mm camera. Not because they're more expensive or produce better IQ but just because they make me happy using them.

    Without sounding like a new age tree huggin hippy (Mannn), some only see the value ($€) of a piece of kit, I see the joy. The camera that made me enjoy the process more would be the one I choose.
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    Senior Member David Schneider's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    But if I had to hike a long way (more than a mile round trip) I would not even think of taking the Phase gear. Not unless I heard of a 2,000 metre tall waterfall surrounded by dinosaurs and naked virgins that no one else had ever photographed.
    Off topic, but wasn't it Ansel Adams who said something like, "If I have to walk more than 200 yards, it's not photogenic."

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Schneider View Post
    Off topic, but wasn't it Ansel Adams who said something like, "If I have to walk more than 200 yards, it's not photogenic."

    200 yards is just lazy... a one mile round trip hardly makes me an athlete! Maybe he had a Zone system like public transport in London, where he just wouldn't go to anywhere further than Zone 1

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    No question MF tech cam. Why is there any doubt . Your using the best optics made period. The D800 can't match it . Close but it's still a stretch. Why I have both even if I went to a 40 mpx back it still will have more detail and range. The D800 is not the smoking gun . I own both and the tech cam wins plus there is nothing in Nikon that can do movements like a tech cam and never will. I would not call the 24pc lens killer in any category. There is nothing that can beat a tech cam. Why I want to keep mine.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No question MF tech cam. Why is there any doubt . Your using the best optics made period. The D800 can't match it . Close but it's still a stretch. Why I have both even if I went to a 40 mpx back it still will have more detail and range. The D800 is not the smoking gun . I own both and the tech cam wins plus there is nothing in Nikon that can do movements like a tech cam and never will. I would not call the 24pc lens killer in any category. There is nothing that can beat a tech cam. Why I want to keep mine.
    ...trouble is... what do you call a tech cam?

    There is not a decent tech cam on the market... one that gives you a full range of yaw-free movements both ends, with the ability to use 100 degree to 3(0) degree lenses, without resorting to retro-focus or tele lenses, and with adequate rigidity between standards for multi-shot WA without an electronic shutter?

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    There is not a decent tech cam on the market... one that gives you a full range of yaw-free movements both ends, with the ability to use 100 degree to 3(0) degree lenses, without resorting to retro-focus or tele lenses, and with adequate rigidity between standards for multi-shot WA without an electronic shutter?
    .....or a bag big and sturdy enough to carry that beast in.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    I have a Linhof Techno and a Canon system. I'm a bit new on the Techno still but so far I've noted a few things.

    The Techno system is in practice not heavier than my Canon when I go hiking, it is about 8 kgs + 2.5 kg tripod/head. The difference is that I get more lenses with the Canon so I can do some tele shots, and perhaps catch some wildlife if I'm lucky.

    I'm a bit of a view camera romantic, guess I've read too many Ansel Adams books. I really want to have good tilt and shift options when I do landscape to fine-tune composition, and the quality of the Techno gears are much nicer than the tiny knobs on my Canon TS-E (although they do the work too).

    Concerning image quality I think my 33 megapixel Techno system would slightly outperform a D800 thanks to better corner-to-corner sharpness at working aperture of f/11, but it is probably not a huge difference, need higher resolution backs for that which I cannot afford.

    For me as an amateur it is as much about having a pleasing photographic experience as the technical quality of the end result. This is a very personal thing. I know some think digital view cameras suck badly (dark ground glass on wides, more limited movements than 4x5" etc), but to me it is a large step forward compared to tilt-shift lenses on a DSLR, and I think pancake camera manufacturers have spread a little bit too much FUD in the view camera direction. I recently said in a similar thread if it was all about image quality I'd have a Nikon D7000 and a pano head and stitch my images, it would be possible in 80% of my pictures since my scenes are most of the times static. But that's not how I want to create pictures, I prefer one-shot when possible. I'm not really into the focus stacking technique either, I rather make a tilt/swing compromise instead or let the background be out of focus.

    I actually invested in this system very recently when I already knew about the D800.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    ...trouble is... what do you call a tech cam?

    There is not a decent tech cam on the market... one that gives you a full range of yaw-free movements both ends, with the ability to use 100 degree to 3(0) degree lenses, without resorting to retro-focus or tele lenses, and with adequate rigidity between standards for multi-shot WA without an electronic shutter?
    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    .....or a bag big and sturdy enough to carry that beast in.
    This is a major problem... as anything that can or would provide all the functions and movements I would like, and rigidity and quick and easy setting of movements, would be likely to be too heavy to carry many hundreds of meters, but, if I could focus stack and shift-and-stitch without touching the camera, I could leave the 10Kg tripod behind and use the Gitzo carbon... so it will probably be more of an architectural camera rather than a Landscape camera.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I have a Linhof Techno and a Canon system. I'm a bit new on the Techno still but so far I've noted a few things.

    For me as an amateur it is as much about having a pleasing photographic experience as the technical quality of the end result. This is a very personal thing. I know some think digital view cameras suck badly (dark ground glass on wides, more limited movements than 4x5" etc),
    If you use MFD on a 54 camera, you get the same movements, which are effectively bigger due to the smaller format. I converted my Sinar P3 from a P2, so it is an MFD camera with all the movements of 54, good for shift-and-stitch without additional hardware.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    speaking as a mechanical designer, once you reduce the format size, say from 4 x 5 to MFDB, the lens focal lengths shrink accordingly for the same fov; so now instead of the 210 Schneider on a 4x5, i am using a 120, for example. what this does is reduce the real estate left for the standards, since now the flange to sensor distance has been reduced. so the mechanism for making the movements work gets quite constrained

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    speaking as a mechanical designer, once you reduce the format size, say from 4 x 5 to MFDB, the lens focal lengths shrink accordingly for the same fov; so now instead of the 210 Schneider on a 4x5, i am using a 120, for example. what this does is reduce the real estate left for the standards, since now the flange to sensor distance has been reduced. so the mechanism for making the movements work gets quite constrained
    I am also a mechanical Engineer (and Electronic and Agricultural).

    You are talking about the distance between the standards, which makes it difficult or impossible to get infinity focus/room for much tilt with non-retro-focus lenses of short focal length on traditional view cameras?

    For WA, most photographers resort to a pancake cameras with limited or no movements...

    I am going to try to overcome this by putting my 100 degree Schneider Apo-Digitar 47 XL in a recessed mount in an electronic shutter with the special Sinar Sliding back that replaces the rear carrier frame... Pancake cams are not cheap, but the (new) cost of this setup is horrendous,,, but I have been buying bits on Ebay as they come up.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    However since Nikon came up with 36Mp DSLR, and 35mm format has better DOF than MF, better low light performance (when required), and availability of Nikon 24mm f/3.5 PC-E, does it make any sense to invest in MF technical cameras for Landscape Photography anymore?
    A comment about the DOF. If we assume perfect lenses and that we can accept longer shutter speeds format size has no effect, only resolution has.

    A D800 with PC-E 24mm at f/8 is (roughly) equivalent to my MF Aptus 75 (33 megapixel 36x48mm) with a Schneider 35mm at f/11 -- same FOV, same resolution reduction to diffraction, same DOF, longer shutterspeed at MF due to smaller aperture.

    What you win in shorter focal lengths on the smaller format you lose on smaller pixels and thus larger aperture is needed to avoid resolution loss due to diffraction.

    However, in practice people are typically more afraid of diffraction in MF, and MF lenses like Rodenstocks are optimized to work optimally at f/8 (Schneiders probably more like f/11), and of course many get 60 or 80 megapixels rather than 33 or 39, so you generally worry more about DOF in MF, but then you get higher resolution pictures too.

    My estimation is that with f/8 as working aperture on D800 one will have more corner sharpness issues than with f/11 as working aperture on a MF tech camera system. There isn't lots of D800 (or Tech camera) resolution testing around though.

    At these levels of resolution (30+ megapixels) I personally think it is highly valuable with tilt, to make the best of the DOF you have. Some prefer doing focus stacking instead though.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post

    At these levels of resolution (30+ megapixels) I personally think it is highly valuable with tilt, to make the best of the DOF you have. Some prefer doing focus stacking instead though.
    If you have the ability to tilt, it is great, and suitable for moving subjects, like a line of ballerinas.

    ...but a DSLR with built-in auto-stacking would be very useful, especially for 3D (non-co-planar) subjects for which tilt cannot get everything in focus.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    It seems to me that with the introduction of the D800 we have passed the tipping point in digital cameras. I started using 4x5 and MF format cameras before digital got started and have waited out the digital era until something came along that was both as good in terms of IQ and that I could afford. I was about to pull the trigger on getting a MF camera that had a full frame sensor and was leaning toward getting a HB. Then I started poking around this forum. I find a post from year or two back from Guy Mancuso saying that he doesn't care much for 35mm. Then the D800 comes out, he gets one, and has to admit it's pretty darn good. Time passes. Now his MF back is for sale but not for technical reasons, which I can understand. Yet, the back is for sale. Hmm. I ordered my D800E a few days ago.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    LOL yes freely admit I hated 35mm as it never lived up to its worth or IQ . Functionally its great but lenses and sensors always fell way short of the mark. The D800 does change that some what . Its much better and Nikon G glass is better than i thought which is a huge plus for it. But Im only selling my back for a lower one and not getting out . I still know the value of MF and i don't want out. I'm just stuck in a situation that i have been avoiding to pay off. But Im not stepping down much at all 40 mpx MF is still amazing and i can never get what a tech cam can do with a Nikon. I can split these systems and cover myself extremely well for almost any gig. Thats something most folks don't consider for me its covering everything thrown at me . Hobbyists luckily don't have to deal with this. Heck i can go from a micro chip to a Boeing 787 in the same day. LOL

    Its that crazy. But I still love these challenges and honestly its the only thing that keeps me from boredom.
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    If I needed a very large print, over about 36 inches on the long side, I would always choose the Phase.
    I guess my question would be how do you know when you are going to need a large print before you've ever taken the shot?

    I have hundreds of images take in the earlier days of digital with sensors that cannot handle printing large that would look awesome large. Certainly not every shot qualifies, but as a landscape photographer who's primary goal it is to print large images, I live in fear of heading out with a lesser camera (as I did on a trip to Tuscany) and get some fantastic images only to be limited as to what I can do with them. When I shoot my plan is to always get something good enough to print large.

    I'm going to give the 800e a go as soon as I can get one, and the biggest advantage for me is telephoto work which MF doesn't do very well. I agree I think up to 36-40" it should be very good. I would be surprised if well equipped it is a much lighter backpack than a tech camera setup. I don't think it will be much lighter than my Phamiya gear. but it will be more flexible.

    At this price it's hard to pass up just to see what I can do with it.
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    What Wayne said.

    And I do not think it's an either/or situation -- why not use both if you can? And for many who cannot afford/justify the expense for MF entry, then it's not even worth discussing.

    Clearly, MF gives a superior file and has superior lenses available at least in moderately wide to moderate tele ranges. But in relative terms, a $3000 body with a $1000 lens that is almost disposable relative to a MF tech outfit with similar lens, and therefore what I'd choose if shooting in very harsh environs.

    I keep coming back to the old expression, "Horses for courses." But in this case I respect and understand not everyone is capable of owning a thoroughbred racehorse. And in this case, the Nikon newcomer filly is a very -- make that extremely -- viable and attractive alternative.

    Cheers,
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Its like I have been saying in the wide angle area nothing can touch a tech cam but on the other hand nothing can touch a Nikon for its reach either. I'm all for having both and if you can do both or can't get in MF than a Nikon will cover you but with limitations of course and same for MF why I think if your dead serious about image quality and having everything covered like glue than both of them make sense and as Jack says "Horses for courses." and as trite as that sounds its true.
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by lmeiners View Post
    It seems to me that with the introduction of the D800 we have passed the tipping point in digital cameras. I started using 4x5 and MF format cameras before digital got started and have waited out the digital era until something came along that was both as good in terms of IQ and that I could afford. I was about to pull the trigger on getting a MF camera that had a full frame sensor and was leaning toward getting a HB. Then I started poking around this forum. I find a post from year or two back from Guy Mancuso saying that he doesn't care much for 35mm. Then the D800 comes out, he gets one, and has to admit it's pretty darn good. Time passes. Now his MF back is for sale but not for technical reasons, which I can understand. Yet, the back is for sale. Hmm. I ordered my D800E a few days ago.
    Hardly fair to bring that up as we all say things publicly, then have a change of heart at some point down the line. I openly discussed on here when I first got back into MFD after a short break that I would go tech camera only as my test of the DF and Phase lenses was very disappointing.

    I'll openly admit I now also own a DF with a small selection of Phase and Schneider lenses and enjoy using them very much.

    The world changes, life changes, cameras change......

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    FYI my back is now sold for a brand new IQ 140 back. Im in the game and not getting out anytime soon but i do need to sell my Cambo Schneider 60mm TS to get a 43mm now. Bottom line for me the adjustment bureau has struck and I will have the best of both worlds. Trust me folks there is no shame in a IQ 140 , i shot the P40 for almost 2 years but hated the crop but now i don't shoot the DF so it won't matter but my Rodie 28mm just went from 18mm to 21mm guess i will start punching walls out. LOL

    My laptop will love me again
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Guy, it doesnt matter what you say on that matter, IMHO. People who feel like finding conspiracy behind every move - will do it anyway Just keep shooting, as you do


    As for me, unless i get same deal as i had with D700 - no point in getting D800. It wont do me any good (nor they need me to review it , i bet), as i dont like video, and when i feel like punching 100+mp in single shot - i can do it with 4x5 (1.2G raw files, thank you very much..) , thank you very much. For landscapes in colour , wide aspect - i love MDFB.. And for certain kind of portraiture shoot.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    I know I think folks where getting scared since I dropped down and trust me no reason I just need some cash and readjust some things too. Unfortunately Pros have to do this stuff all the time to adjust to the economic climate and client needs. But truth is also i am a big *** fan of MF and will always will be. Just look what we all have created here on the MF forum( thats a credit to our members). We are damn proud this is the place to get in the know. I want to also thank everyone for there support and friendship here. We are a family and i sure as hell like being in it.
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Hardly fair to bring that up as we all say things publicly, then have a change of heart at some point down the line. I openly discussed on here when I first got back into MFD after a short break that I would go tech camera only as my test of the DF and Phase lenses was very disappointing.

    I'll openly admit I now also own a DF with a small selection of Phase and Schneider lenses and enjoy using them very much.

    The world changes, life changes, cameras change......
    I wasn't meaning to be impolite. My point was that when someone with a history in large and MF, and as obviously concerned about the quality of their images as Guy is, comes out and says that he can accomplish 90% of what he wants to do, with a camera that costs 1/6 or less of that of a high end MF system, then that means things have changed a lot. And that it's going to get even better (or worse depending on your point of view).

    Larry

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    I really think Nikon has a great start here the files are very very nice , its not totally there but come next round of the d800 version II the MF market better wake up too. The adjustment bureau is on there tail too.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    I'll bet by trading down the 160 to the 140, Guy pretty much paid for the nikon?

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Congratulations on the sale, Guy.

    For Landscape, I'm not feeling the urge to drop the M9 for the D800. As lenses have a much longer life than sensors, I'm still thinking Leica S or Schneider/Rodenstock tech cam lenses. Sadly for the wallet, I've used the latter.

    --Matt

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Congratulations on the sale, Guy.

    For Landscape, I'm not feeling the urge to drop the M9 for the D800. As lenses have a much longer life than sensors, I'm still thinking Leica S or Schneider/Rodenstock tech cam lenses. Sadly for the wallet, I've used the latter.

    --Matt
    I'd agree. Though with the caveat that the best value retention is usually with lenses that:
    - aren't highly specific to a specific electronic platform (e.g. manual control and manual focus will never be outdated)
    - are really high quality, even on the latest and greatest sensors of today (which most of the rodenstock HR / schneider XL series and most Leica lenses are)
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Just not going to beat these tech lenses. They are just too damn good and well corrected as well. Corner sharpness is unparalleled to anything out there. No lens curvature to deal with.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    I can't say I was thrilled to find out that there really is no top of the line 35mm lens for the tech cameras. 35mm rodie apo-sironar digital is not so sharp, schneider 35 digitar has only ~75mm effective image circle due too rather poor quality the last 15 (field curvature), and the rodie 35mm digaron-s is only 70mm so shift is very limited.

    There are many fantastic tech camera lenses out there but there are gaps too. Being strong on the shiftable wides I think is tech cameras most important feature compared to the competition. The options are a liiiittle bit too narrow today I think. Not as bad as 35mm digital of course, but as the competition gets tougher stronger advantages need to be provided.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Oh, another comment. I'm actually genuinely worried about the future of MF. I would not be surprised if it in ten years from now is gone unless we start to see some serious development (lower prices, CMOS sensors etc). I don't think it will be enough to be a little bit better in a narrow use case when DSLRs can do it almost as good to 1/5th of the price and be better in all other use cases.

    If the majority of professionals that used MF before start choosing high res 135 DSLRs like the D800 instead it will be over. I don't think MF companies can survive on fine art photographers alone.

    Well, the tech camera business itself don't need large business since it is all mechanical stuff, 8x10" film cameras are still made, but how small can the market for MF digital backs be an still support development? What do you think?
    Last edited by torger; 16th May 2012 at 00:20.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    I think each cameras have their own advantages/disadvantages.
    P1 IQ 180 is still the king of landscape photography (only type of photography I've known except nature photography) either with the P1 DF or tech cam. I am a small Asian guy but I don't find them too heavy at all- 28mm (or broken AF 35mm cost me only $175), 55mm, 110 and 150mm (or 75-150mm for 55, 110, 150) and I am good to go. I can walk for miles with them and know I can have as big prints as I wish and spend less time in Photoshop.
    Nikon D800 - many lenses to use for and you can trade them without loosing money. G/Zeiss lenses are great.although my 25-year-old 80-200 AI is still good to go. 200mm f/2 VR is the best. ISO 1600 is still awesome and make night photography much more productive and enjoyable. I don't see I need D800e.
    Canon 5D M III - to use with Canon super-telephoto lenses which are much cheaper than the Nikon's so you get the 5DMIII for free. I've never lost money by buying a second-hand 300-600mm. They always hold their values (just put the coat on). You pretty much use these lenses for free. The 17mm and 24mm TS are great too.
    My biggest benefits of D800 is that I can buy MF and Canon lenses with less money nowsday. I just got the SK 110mm for only $2500 (almost the same price as new 70-200 VR II).
    Thanks for the D800!
    Pramote

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I'd agree. Though with the caveat that the best value retention is usually with lenses that:
    - aren't highly specific to a specific electronic platform (e.g. manual control and manual focus will never be outdated)
    - are really high quality, even on the latest and greatest sensors of today (which most of the rodenstock HR / schneider XL series and most Leica lenses are)

    ??????
    Not my experience or what I see out there in the real world.


    Schneider Super Angulon 72XL 5.6 sold for $ 895
    BH price: $2,064.95

    Nikon 85mm 1.4G used on ebay sold for $1,600.00
    BH price: $1,699.95

    Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM II Lens on ebay sold for $ 2,100
    New it's $2,299.00 at BH

    Just picked up a Schneider 480mm f/8.4 Apo-Symmar L Lens mint for $ 850
    New that's $4,219.95 at BH

    Hasselblad H 35mm used mint with warranty on ebay $2,200.00
    New at BH $4,395.00

    Medium format and large format lenses show large price drops for those selling them used.
    It's medium format digital that's taking the largest hit.

    I can see things dropping more as photography shot the likes of the D800E start to show up in major publications.
    Last edited by FredBGG; 16th May 2012 at 02:20.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    If shooting landscape you are not shooting many shots large format film will look far better.

    8x10 film still looks far better than digital.

    645 MF digital is not really that different from a high end 35mm DSLR. Only twice the capture area. 8x10 film is a whole different world.

    You can shoot a lot of film for the price of an IQ180. Fine art in a digital file still does not attract the same league of prices that traditional film and prints do.

    Digital has inflated the market deflating the prices of digital art.
    Last edited by FredBGG; 16th May 2012 at 02:25.
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    If I still had a digital back for my tech camera I would prefer the Tech camera over the D800.
    Probably the D800 is much betterthan the d3x, but when I shot the d3x side by side with a MFDB I nearly allways prefered the output from the DB.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I would not be surprised if it in ten years from now is gone unless we start to see some serious development (lower prices, CMOS sensors etc).
    I would add True Live view.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    ??????
    Not my experience or what I see out there in the real world.


    Schneider Super Angulon 72XL 5.6 sold for $ 895
    BH price: $2,064.95

    Nikon 85mm 1.4G used on ebay sold for $1,600.00
    BH price: $1,699.95

    Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM II Lens on ebay sold for $ 2,100
    New it's $2,299.00 at BH

    Just picked up a Schneider 480mm f/8.4 Apo-Symmar L Lens mint for $ 850
    New that's $4,219.95 at BH

    Hasselblad H 35mm used mint with warranty on ebay $2,200.00
    New at BH $4,395.00

    Medium format and large format lenses show large price drops for those selling them used.
    It's medium format digital that's taking the largest hit.

    I can see things dropping more as photography shot the likes of the D800E start to show up in major publications.
    I'm sorry but e-bay is the absolute worst guidelines to go by as far as price. There simply is no standard. People sell there worst gear on eBay usually damaged, going out of business, over priced and just simply desperate people and a ton of fraud. IMHO prices are completely irrelevant . The only thing that happens is people use this data as a bargaining chip. Happens to me all the time and I tell them goodbye every time on a sale. Fred fair warning your going to get your *** burned at some point with eBay I can promise you this. Your money but when a brick shows up don't come crying. I would not spend over a grand on eBay anymore it's gotten that bad. Yes at one time it was pretty safe. It's just too risky now. Not saying there are always bad buyers and sellers but there is always a crook lurking. Sorry as a forum owner and someone that's been on Internet , forums and such I just seen some bad stuff happen. Believe me I get a lot if emails for advice on this stuff. Buy from people you know have good feedback or see a dealer. Especially dealing at this level of systems. There are complete legit sellers too but you don't always know who they are. I just can't recommend it myself given I am co-owner of this place it's too much of a trust factor I can't count on giving people good advice on what to buy and where. I will always side on a safe place or person to buy from. I get PMs all the time of our members asking about other members here. So I say this with some experience.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I can't say I was thrilled to find out that there really is no top of the line 35mm lens for the tech cameras. 35mm rodie apo-sironar digital is not so sharp, schneider 35 digitar has only ~75mm effective image circle due too rather poor quality the last 15 (field curvature), and the rodie 35mm digaron-s is only 70mm so shift is very limited.
    You need to check out the Rodenstock HR 32 -- relative large IC and extremely sharp.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm sorry but e-bay is the absolute worst guidelines to go by as far as price. There simply is no standard. People sell there worst gear on eBay usually damaged, going out of business, over priced and just simply desperate people and a ton of fraud. IMHO prices are completely irrelevant . The only thing that happens is people use this data as a bargaining chip. Happens to me all the time and I tell them goodbye every time on a sale. Fred fair warning your going to get your *** burned at some point with eBay I can promise you this. Your money but when a brick shows up don't come crying. I would not spend over a grand on eBay anymore it's gotten that bad. Yes at one time it was pretty safe. It's just too risky now. Not saying there are always bad buyers and sellers but there is always a crook lurking. Sorry as a forum owner and someone that's been on Internet , forums and such I just seen some bad stuff happen. Believe me I get a lot if emails for advice on this stuff. Buy from people you know have good feedback or see a dealer. Especially dealing at this level of systems. There are complete legit sellers too but you don't always know who they are. I just can't recommend it myself given I am co-owner of this place it's too much of a trust factor I can't count on giving people good advice on what to buy and where. I will always side on a safe place or person to buy from. I get PMs all the time of our members asking about other members here. So I say this with some experience.

    I disagree. Just buy from sellers with 100% positive feedback that offer the right return policy. If you buy from sellers with good feedback you automatically get ebay protection.

    As far as ebay being representative of prices on the market it is very representative. The items I referred to were all completed sales that also received 5 star feedback.

    You can also buy locally through ebay. Just search with your local zip code.
    You can often see the items in person and still complete the transaction through ebay.

    eBay is a multi billion dollar company because it works.

    Going back to ebay being a good way to establish used market prices.
    I have at times bought gear from stores or locals and used completed listing prices to get the fair price on an item. Because eBay reaches the whole nation you get a more accurate sampling of the market.

    I have had to make 2 ebay returns. Both went through no problem at all. Pay Pal even returns fees on refunds.

  43. #43
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Fred your money. You won't see me recommend it ever. And I totally disagree as fair market value. Totally, but hey horses for courses.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Playing devils advocate...I've bought loads of lenses from ebay, no problem at all.
    Most recently a HC35mm and it's as sharp as a razor. Before that a 50-110, several manual Mamiya 645 lenses.

    Backs and bodies, I'd only collect used stuff in person to check unless it was new.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Fred your money. You won't see me recommend it ever. And I totally disagree as fair market value. Totally, but hey horses for courses.
    I will not underestimate eBay. I have seen IQ180 to sell on eBay (I know the seller as I was trying to buy it via LL) and buyer is happy and provided feedback on LL and eBay.

    When you buy from eBay, you need to do your homework and need to verify the seller's credential.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    +1
    My first digital back actually came from eBay. Very low shot count, still under warranty, seller was Calumet. Do your homework and eBay can be just fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    I disagree. Just buy from sellers with 100% positive feedback that offer the right return policy. If you buy from sellers with good feedback you automatically get ebay protection.

    As far as ebay being representative of prices on the market it is very representative. The items I referred to were all completed sales that also received 5 star feedback.

    You can also buy locally through ebay. Just search with your local zip code.
    You can often see the items in person and still complete the transaction through ebay.

    eBay is a multi billion dollar company because it works.

    Going back to ebay being a good way to establish used market prices.
    I have at times bought gear from stores or locals and used completed listing prices to get the fair price on an item. Because eBay reaches the whole nation you get a more accurate sampling of the market.

    I have had to make 2 ebay returns. Both went through no problem at all. Pay Pal even returns fees on refunds.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    I have bought and sold there many times in the past. My warning is out there ignore it if you like BUT i am entitled to my opinion just like anyone else. I have people come to me daily on advice which you need to understand. I won't endorse it unless I know the seller , just that simple.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    This may not be important for you, but not yet discussed, format. I shoot full frame. I compose in the viewfinder and I just have a really bad time with 3:2 cameras. It is either too long or not long enough. I do much better with a 4:3 frame.

    The dominance of 3:2 cameras has been a really big turn off for me with digital. I own a m4/3 camera and MFD for my digital photography.

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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    BTW, I would not recommend photographic equipment as a financial investment like stock.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  50. #50
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    Re: Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    BTW, I would not recommend photographic equipment as a financial investment like stock.
    I just fell off my chair laughing.

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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