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Is Medium Format Right for Me?

bumgardner

New member
Is medium format right for me?

I am a commercial photographer based out of Nashville, TN. I shoot mostly for advertising agencies. The vast majority of my shoots take place in the studio. I shoot a mix of both product and people. I have recently started taking on larger advertising jobs that may benefit from the improved image quality that comes from a MFDB.

I currently shoot with a Canon 1DMKIII, 1DSMKIII, and a variety of Canon L series prime lenses ranging from 24-200mm.

I feel that after 5 years I am ready to move onto a new camera and have debated the Canon 1DX, Canon 5DMKIII, Nikon D4, and Nikon D800. I think they are all great cameras, but I want something different.

I am seriously considering the move to medium format. I love the image quality of the files. I see smoother transitions between in focus and out of focus areas, also smother tonal graduations, and more micro contrast all of which I like. I also like the narrower dof that MF allows.

I do not have a ton of money to spend. I would like to keep this move under the 10k mark the further under that price the better.

I have been looking at used: DM22, or DM28 with the DF back and the 80 LS lens. I have also been looking at some of the older backs with a AFD II or III body and a P25, or P30. I have also seen a few Pentax AFD bodies in my price range.

Here is my question coming from a 1DSMKIII will I be happy with the handling of any of the medium format bodies? In reality do these bodies seem as slow as I have been told they are? How bad is the resolution on the back of the camera compared to my Canon? How fast and accurate is the auto focus? How easy is it to manual focus on any of the Mamiya bodies?

I am also wondering about how much lighting power I need? I tend to like to shoot between F5.6 and F11 @ iso 100 on 35mm to get the same DOF on medium format where do I need to be?

Also if anyone could point me towards some more MF resources that would be awesome. I would really like to know more about the tech specs of the different backs that I listed and also on the different bodies.

I would love to handle one of these systems locally but there are not that many shooters in my area that own a MF digital system. I do plan on stopping by Capture Integration in Atlanta some time in June/July if I have a free day.

If you want to see my work check out my website www.nickbumgardnerphoto.com

Sorry that was a lot of questions. Any responses would be greatly appreciated.
 

DeckardTrinity

New member
Quick comments based on the two systems I use the most...

Mamiya RB/RZ system: The 110mm f/2.8 is an outstanding lens (for my style at least). Cheap second-hand bodies and lenses, and on the Pro-II an extra fine grain knob for focus control. Cons: big, bulky, so it's great on a tripod, but less so handheld (not that it can't be done, just not as easy as other systems).

Hasselblad V system: pure mechanical goodness, outstanding lineup of Zeiss lenses, small, light, and very robust. Also fairly cheap second-hand, although not as cheap as the RZ.

I haven't used a digital back on either, but there are plenty of options for both.

Now... if you want autofocus, the bodies you've mentioned are good, but I can personally vouch for the Rollei Hy6 and its system of AFD lenses. Not cheap by any stretch, probably at the end of its life due to many unfortunate circumstances, but, quite possibly the best autofocus capable camera system available today, especially if you have any inkling of shooting film too. Takes Leaf Afi backs up to 80 megapixel, as well as Sinar backs that were made for it (not sure of any others).
 

Swissblad

Well-known member
Welcome to MF and hope you enjoy the move!
I strongly suggest you find a MF dealer / distributor and rent a few systems eg Mamiya / Hasselblad etc. I would try various systems, before you lock down your options.
This way you will get to know what you like and don't - and if MF really is for you!
Once you've made up your mind, check the 2nd hand market - eg hasselbladdigitalforum.com - Index
H4D or H3D are regularly advertised in the price range you envisage.
HTH, S.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Yes, Medium Format Digital will produce a visibly different look and feel compared to 35mm DSLRs.

Handeling and shooting work flow is also different. The older that the MFD system is, the more different it will be.

I've worked with various MFD camera/back combinations doing similar work to yours: Product table-top, corporate location, portraits, jewelry, food, industrial, fashion, and conceptual artistic.

MF Cameras: Contax 645; Mamiya AFD-II and III; Mamiya RZ Pro-II, Mamiya RZ Pro-IID; Hasselblad 500CM, 555ELD, 500CW, 203FE; Hasselblad H2D, H2F, H3D, H3D-II, H4; Leica S2, Rollei Xact-II view camera.

All sorts of backs from a Kodak DCS ProBack 645C, experience with a Phase One 22 meg back, 33 meg Leaf Aptus 7 and 7s, Imacon backs, Hasselblad 22 meg, 31 meg, 39 meg, CF/39 Multi-Shot, H4D/40 meg, H4D/60 meg.

My 35mm systems included all Canon models up to and including the Canon 1DMK-III/1DsMK-III, Canon 5D/5DMK-II; then to Nikon D3/D3X; current Sony 24 meg A900 with Zeiss AF lenses.

I haven't used a 35mm system in the studio for over 5 years. Not that it obviously wouldn't work for some applications, I just vastly prefer the MFD look and feel. I also prefer it for post work, and so do the retouchers. Clients like it because they can crop severely for multiple use in different media, and the fidelity is retained ... which is not just a function of resolution. For example, a 22 meg MFD back produces more elastic and malleable files than a 21 meg Canon 5DMK-II file ... and so on. I only use 35mm DSLRs for shooting weddings and some family stuff, or my doggy running around the yard ... otherwise I wouldn't even own one.

However ...

if you expect the same speedy and responsive performance as a 35mm DSLR, forget about it. The question is do you really need it, and can you adapt? Tri-pod table-top is easier with a big bright MFD viewfinder, and is vastly better with the digital back on a full T/S movements view-camera shooting to a computer screen ... fashion with strobes is a no brainer and a zillion fashion shoots are done with MFD ... if you shoot at f/5.6-f/11 just zone focus and shoot ... portraits are also easy. Not great for shooting Hockey in a dimly lit arena, or an Eagle killing something, or a dirt bike race, or the first dance at a wedding in a dark reception hall. Horses for courses.

If you expect satisfaction for considerably less than $10,000, good luck. Not impossible, but you will need a lot of patience and good hunting skills to be at the right place at the right time. Hunt an advanced enthusiasts who jumps from lilly-pad to lilly-pad every time there is some new development in digital imaging ... the gear is often barely broke in and they dump it for the next thing.

Personal biased opinion? I'd look for really different not just a bit different. After all the screwing around, I went with the H system, and never looked back. All of the lenses are leaf-shutter from 28mm to 300mm, so I can shoot sync'ed strobes to 1/800th @ ISO 50 which expanded my applications and diversity both in studio and especially out-doors. In your general price range, I'd recommend looking at the H3D-II/39 body, and find a HC 100/2.2 lens ... add a few extension tubes and a 1.7X and table-top/full length or waist-up portraits/head-shots are a done deal.

Happy hunting.

-Marc
 

DDudenbostel

Active member
If the only thing you've shot with is 35mm then there's going to be a long period of adapting to a new slower, larger and much less spontaneous system. I do exclusively commercial / advertising / architectural work with both people and products. The majority of my work is very structured so MF works quite well. When I need fast I still have a Canon FF system.

I'm just guessing but I assume you're young and probably have never spent much time using MF. Moving to MF was no big deal for me having been in this business for Forty five years and shot most of my career with LF and MF until going digital twelve years ago. Over the years my main MF systems were Rollei SL66 and Hasselblad 500 series cameras. Unfortunately there's no digital for the Sl66 but there's a ton for the Hasselblad V series. I bought a new CFV39 back which integrates perfectly with a system I'm totally familiar with so there was little to no transition.

Since my work is mainly very structured AF and AE were non issues. I almost always shoot my Canons manual as well. I uses a 2x3 Linhof Technikardan for products and architecture and MF gives me that same level of image controll I had when shooting LF film. In the end I'm much happier as are my clients having superior files. After moving from film to digital one of the biggest frustrations was trying to make 35mm fit all my needs. Now I have exceptional image quality and options as to whether I need the ultimate controll of a view camera or whether I need the mobility of the V system. Then if I need speed I have my Canonsto
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Nick you plan on visiting Capture integration. I say that is your first stop right out of the gate. Make that a priority. You can sit and handhold several systems on hand and the guys there can custom fit a system to your needs. Now given your price range I woul be looking at a Leaf back and in Phase a p30,p40 since this can fit pretty close within your budget. Get a Afdiii or DF and a couple lenses. Now you will notice on the buy and sell there are a few listings right now for a DF And a couple lenses and you may want to score one of these setups than you can pick a back at CI used and my guess you have about 5 choices within your budget that will be great for you. But read like crazy here learn all about them but make that dealer trip a must. This way you have everything in front of you can make a sound buy decision.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
You probably just heard from about 300 years of experience here and we are all telling you the same thing . Get it in your hand first
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Also give your self a little more breathing room on your budget. 15 k would really do you wonders on getting the latest and best sensors. I can't recommend a P40 enough here but maybe used around 7-10k depending on age and use. It's the same sensor in a IQ140 and a crop version of the P65 and IQ 160 so a very modern Dalsa 6 micron sensor which is outstanding. Also one I use for the past 3 years in diffrent configs.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Is medium format right for me?
Here is my question coming from a 1DSMKIII will I be happy with the handling of any of the medium format bodies? In reality do these bodies seem as slow as I have been told they are? How bad is the resolution on the back of the camera compared to my Canon? How fast and accurate is the auto focus? How easy is it to manual focus on any of the Mamiya bodies?

I am also wondering about how much lighting power I need? I tend to like to shoot between F5.6 and F11 @ iso 100 on 35mm to get the same DOF on medium format where do I need to be?
You should talk to Scarpati who lives right around the corner from you and shoots medium format for similar applications. Great guy.

- Manual focusing is easier - larger/brighter viewfinder
- Auto focus is no where near as fast, but for studio applications as you describe I think you'll find it is much more than enough to become an afterthought.
- An older body like the AFD2 is going to have some shutter lag which, depending on your shooting style and disposition, may be either a minor nuisance or a major issue (that's where you keep getting advice to get hands on)
- P/P+ LCD is much lower compared to your Canon, but if you're shooting in a studio environment the tethering of any of these older mid-res backs is extremely fast and review can be done either on the computer screen or on an iPhone/iPad/iPod-Touch using Capture One's Capture Pilot tool.
- Not all digital backs have the same sensor size (which determines required aperture for a given DOF). So e.g. for the DM28 you'd need ballpark 1.5 stops more light to match DOF assuming you want to shoot at ISO50 (base ISO) for absolute maximum quality (ISO100 is also very good, but if you're in the studio and have enough lighting for it, why not shoot at base?) for the DM22 you'd need ballpark 2 stops more light to match DOF assuming base ISO of 50. You may find a P30+ matches your needs best (or may not, that's why you need to get hands on) in which case the base ISO is 100 and you'd need less than a stop less light. These are all ballpark figures since DOF and exposure is trickier than you might think (depending on if judged at a given use/print size or at 100%, will you in fact use the same lens equivalence given that they don't always match exactly the same look between platforms etc etc, will you expose the same given the different ability to recover shadows and highlights etc etc).

Guy is right that you'll get a lot more if you can stretch your budget just a few more k. There is a relatively hard price floor around 7-10k.
 

David Schneider

New member
Is medium format right for me?

Here is my question coming from a 1DSMKIII will I be happy with the handling of any of the medium format bodies? In reality do these bodies seem as slow as I have been told they are? How bad is the resolution on the back of the camera compared to my Canon? How fast and accurate is the auto focus? How easy is it to manual focus on any of the Mamiya bodies?

Sorry that was a lot of questions. Any responses would be greatly appreciated.
When I add mfd to my 5dmk2 in my studio, the biggest difference in use was I had to think a whole lot more. Yes, there are some disadvantages, but to get the advantages you have to engage your brain a lot more, especially until it becomes more natural. In doing that I believe you improve the quality of your work and enjoy your craft more.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
The closest thing to the fast 35mm DSLR is the Pentax 645D. In the States, the only new glass is the D FA 55mm and 25mm. Pentax will have a new 90mm this year as well. There is a lot of old Pentax 645 (and 67) glass that can be used on the camera--in Japan and a few other places, that glass is still new. The AF is good on the 645D and manual focus is easy. It has many of the mod-cons you expect to find on a camera--multi-point AF and AE, customizable controls, mirror lock up, PC socket, electronic level, dual card slots, etc.
 

bumgardner

New member
I have worked in the commercial photography world for about 5 years. For the last 4 years I worked as an assistant. In January I really started making the move away from being an assistant and into the shooting world.

5 years ago I had the opportunity to test out a wide range of medium format cameras when CI came to the studio to help the photographer that I was working with decide on a camera. The photographer ended up staying with the 1DSMKIII, because he thought MF was to slow.

From that experience I remember my favorite body being the HY6. A HY6 body is going to be out of my price range. My second favorite body was the Mamiya AFD, followed by the Hassey H.

Since it has been so long I really want to test out a few different systems. At the time I remember thinking that the MF systems where not too slow for my shooting style. I agree that I have to really get my feet a bit wetter before I decide.

I hope to handle a few of the different options locally I have found a few people in Nashville that shoot with digital medium format. Then I plan on going to CI hopefully in June if I have some free time. If not it might be late July or early Aug. I wanted this process to move along faster, but I really want to spend the time doing my research and getting it right.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I have worked in the commercial photography world for about 5 years. For the last 4 years I worked as an assistant. In January I really started making the move away from being an assistant and into the shooting world.

5 years ago I had the opportunity to test out a wide range of medium format cameras when CI came to the studio to help the photographer that I was working with decide on a camera. The photographer ended up staying with the 1DSMKIII, because he thought MF was to slow.

From that experience I remember my favorite body being the HY6. A HY6 body is going to be out of my price range. My second favorite body was the Mamiya AFD, followed by the Hassey H.

Since it has been so long I really want to test out a few different systems. At the time I remember thinking that the MF systems where not too slow for my shooting style. I agree that I have to really get my feet a bit wetter before I decide.

I hope to handle a few of the different options locally I have found a few people in Nashville that shoot with digital medium format. Then I plan on going to CI hopefully in June if I have some free time. If not it might be late July or early Aug. I wanted this process to move along faster, but I really want to spend the time doing my research and getting it right.
Man just said all the right things, take your time don't buy a deal buy a system that works for you. Good luck
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
5 years ago I had the opportunity to test out a wide range of medium format cameras when CI came to the studio to help the photographer that I was working with decide on a camera. The photographer ended up staying with the 1DSMKIII, because he thought MF was to slow.
That means we've met! I was there with Chris Lawery and Dave Gallagher (I used to work at CI) at that studio test.

I also remember his shooting style was pretty fast (not a good or bad thing; just a particular style) which wasn't well suited for medium format.
 

bumgardner

New member
That means we've met! I was there with Chris Lawery and Dave Gallagher (I used to work at CI) at that studio test.

I also remember his shooting style was pretty fast (not a good or bad thing; just a particular style) which wasn't well suited for medium format.
Doug I thought that we had met. There were a ton of people at the studio that day. I was the new second assistant. I think I was slightly terrified when I tried out each of the cameras. That morning I may have had a camera with a 70-200 thrown at me (it was already broken).

Sadly we moved out of that studio about two years ago. That studio has been turned into cubicles :(
 

djonesii

Workshop Member
I made the decision about 2 years ago ....

I was shooting a D300 Nikon with a 24-80 2.8 zoom, and often a good range of primes.

At that time, the question was go to a 8K Nikon body, or a 4K Mamiya ZD setup. After a bunch of looking at images, and a few raw dumps, with having never held a Mamiya, I picked the ZD over the D3X. After about a year of shooting, I could not put up with the issues, and got a P30+, and now I can shoot as fast as I want to, and tethered. I'm all in the deal for about 11K now, and I really feel that for what I do in the studio, not much else is needed. Hard for me to justify a DF body as I don't need the leaf shutters, the D lenses are really nice, but for fine art figure, I have never seen much uplift ( landscape/art repro/product are all different beasts)

The ADF-II body AF/ergonomics have never been an issue in my studio work. Some argure that the Hasselbalds are superior, as mine's not broken, I see no need to fix it.



I only shoot primes on the AFD, and I have a 35/80/150 set up that I'm really happy with.

For the way that I shoot, with a fast card, I almost never can out shoot the camera/back, and then only under natural light. My strobes are the limit when shooting not the camera/back. That said, I only have a 30mpix back.

I have simply found that the files are so much sweeter from the Phase than the Nikon, that was true of the D3X, and I'm going to guess, much the same will be true of the D800, the extra 6mpix is small, the extra 5K is big.

Much of my work is converted to black and white, and is very high contrast, I find that both the shadows and the highlights hold detail better on the Phase that with the few tests I did with the Nikon D3X.

I have work with capture integration before, and as you are in Atlanta, go see them! Set up a test shoot, get a bunch of files, download Capture One for free and play.

Doug Peterson is a great guy to work with, and if you can capture a bit of his time, he can make C1 sing and dance with your images.

I did go on a landscape workshop hosted by Guy/Jack, and it was great. FOR ME, and the way I like to work, a tech camera is just not in the cards, but who knows for YOU, so the decision that I made with a P30+ vs the P40+ turns out to be the right one. From all I have read and tested, to get the frame rate, you need to live with the crop. I'm sure one of the tech folks will chime in if I'm wrong.

As to the price range, these days, it's easy to get into a AFD/DF setup with a couple of non-D primes at well under 10K, still not the under 5K that a D800 and the same primes will cost.

If you want links to my site with some fine art work, drop a note.

Dave
 

FredBGG

Not Available
I'm going to throw in something completely different.

First of all don't expect either the build quality or functionality of your Canons in MF cameras.

The Phase one backs have very good build quality, but the camera system does not come close.

Regarding manual focus it will be a bit better than doing so with a 35mm DSLR, but don't expect high accuracy unless you use a waist level finder with a higher magnification waist level finder.

You also need to keep in mind that the Phase One cameras only have focus points in the center area of the screen and do not indicate which one is locking focus.
With only center focus points do not expect focus to be accurate if your subject is out of the center area of the frame and you are shooting shallow depth of field with lenses under 100mm.

I took a look at your work and I see you do fashion/portrait and product as well as music.... MUSIC... hey you're in Nashville... got to be music in there.

You might want to consider something a bit different.

You have top of the line 35mm DSL and with the best L lenses your getting quite close to MF quality along with great versatility and unmatched reliability.

How about a system that gives you more creative options that a 645 MFD.

Two options are the Mamiya RZ and better still the Fuji GX680.

Both these cameras would give you both MFDB through an adapter but they would also give you the option of shooting larger medium format with film, something that would give you a totally different look to digital MF or 35mm.

Both are bulky... the Fuji being the bulkier of the two.

Both let you shoot vertical and horizontal with either a prism or a waist level finder without rotating the camera.

The Fuji gx680 would also give you tilt and shift on all it's lenses as it is built into the camera.

Tilt shift on your whole system has huge advantages.
Say you are shooting two people on different planes and you want both in focus while shooting shallow depth of field.
Tilt shift is also so important in product photography.

Also another very empowering option for the Fuji gx680 is shooting with a stitch back and a MFDB. You could get the Phase One p25 and for still product shots you can get 44 MP shots that look amazing due to a virtual format twice the size of a 645.

Now for the best part. The Fuji gx680 used even in mint conditions is inexpensive.
Absolutely amazing lenses like the 180mm 3.2 can be found for about $ 300.
These lenses are made by Fuji that makes the lenses for current Hasselblad H cameras.

Here is a Fuji GX680 with a phase one back on it.



Here are two shots shot wide open. One with Tilt shift and one without.





Here I used the tilt to shoot wide open with shallow depth of field (for athmosphere) and kept the pianist and singer in focus.



Here is that the tilt shift mechanism looks like.



Here is a photo of mine with a crop so you can see what the camera is capable of as far as detail goes even with film.





and another:



crop

 

bumgardner

New member
Fred thanks for pointing out an alternative route. I have considered the Fuji GX680 system before. During my first foray into medium format in college I did lust over a Fuji GX680 for awhile. I don't doubt that the Fuji is a great system. If there were sensors out there that could fill that 6x8 frame and they were affordable I would def consider it. However with the current size of sensors I think it makes more sense for me to choose the from one of the smaller 645 size bodies. I do actually have an old MF system the old Mamiya 1000s system. I wish that when I was in college i would have considered the possibility of going MFD one day but since I did not I have a system that can not accept a digital back. I also have movements covered by two 4x5 cameras that I have and love to use when the occasion arrises.
 

dick

New member
Yes, Medium Format Digital will produce a visibly different look and feel compared to 35mm DSLRs.

Handeling and shooting work flow is also different. The older that the MFD system is, the more different it will be.

MF Cameras: Contax 645; Mamiya AFD-II and III; Mamiya RZ Pro-II, Mamiya RZ Pro-IID; Hasselblad 500CM, 555ELD, 500CW, 203FE; Hasselblad H2D, H2F, H3D, H3D-II, H4; Leica S2, Rollei Xact-II view camera.

All sorts of backs from a Kodak DCS ProBack 645C, experience with a Phase One 22 meg back, 33 meg Leaf Aptus 7 and 7s, Imacon backs, Hasselblad 22 meg, 31 meg, 39 meg, CF/39 Multi-Shot, H4D/40 meg, H4D/60 meg.

-Marc
Anything good is expensive or difficult to find.

Yesterday (until I bought the digiback) there was a Sinar P3 (£3,500) complete with sliding back (£4,000), Sinaron 120mm Macro with electronic shutter ¿2,500? and Sinar 54H 22Mpx single to 88Mpx 16 shot digital back ¿20,000? all cables and demonstated to work for £5,500. This is good stuff, but tethered only, so it would not do everything for you.

The Sinar 86H is an easy upgrade from the 54H.

The Hasselblad Flexbody is a great little tool if you can find one, but slow.

I have been collecting bits on eBay for about a decade, and now have a complete Sinar system, including the LC shutter for daylight live view.

The Hasselblad H4D-60 is a great studio camera, hand held, on a tripod or on a view camera... but not cheap, and the H4D-40 is better for hand-held ambient.

Try to avoid spending a great deal of money on something frustratingly slow that is not significantly better, and/or buy a system you can upgrade with a better back when you can find or afford one.

If any keen young pro in the UK Midlands has the same problem... get in touch... as I have the kit but I have a heart condition and I lack the energy to get out and use it.
 
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Shashin

Well-known member
First of all don't expect either the build quality or functionality of your Canons in MF cameras.
Please be specific. That is rather a broad brush you are painting with. There is nothing about my Pentax 645D that is inferior in build to a Canon. And with a few exceptions like video and live view, functionality. Are you talking about Mamiya? Hasselblad?
 
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