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Thread: Sinar M system

  1. #1
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    Sinar M system

    There is hardly any discussion on the Sinar M and I have not found any US$ pricing. Does anyone have any experience with the system and the different lens modules? Reading the specs, it is a really attractive system for anyone wanting versatility. This looks like a nice partner for the 54LV.

    Any information greatly appreciated!

    Thanks,

    Gilles

    www.gilleslorin.com

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Hi Gilles,

    I have a Sinar m camera system, and I really love it. It is extremely flexible due to its modular design built around its focal plane shutter (1/2000 maximum). It can be configured as a stand alone 645 camera which can take four special AF Zeiss lenses (40, 80, 120, 180) as well as all the Hasselblad Zeiss C/CF/CFi/CFE/F/FE lenses with focus confirmation. The autofocus mechanism is extremely fast and accurate. It also has a Nikon lens module that accepts all the Nikon F lenses as well as the Zeiss ZF lenses, but without autofocus capability. And, of course, it can be used with a Sinar P3 view camera as well. In addition, it has interchangeable viewfinders for either waist-level or 90-degree prism.

    Basically, if you love Zeiss glass, you will love this camera. Zeiss makes four special AF lenses, three of which are improved autofocus versions of the following Hasselblad V lenses: 40mm CFE IF, 120mm CFE, and 180mm CFE. The fourth AF lens is an 80mm / F2.8, which is a completely new and improved lens design from Zeiss, with the latest improvements in flare reduction, contrast enhancement, and of course now the autofocus. And, all lenses are sharp wide open.

    The only disadvantage for some people is that the flash sync is not very high, only 1/100, and you cannot make use of the leaf shutters in the Hassy lenses. To me, it is not a big deal, since if I need higher flash sync, I switch to a Hy6 or even a Hasselblad V camera. The advantages of the Sinar m are in so many other areas as mentioned above, plus its ability to do 16-shot images with the 54H back with "true" MLU.

    I will try to post some images, to help you see what the camera looks like.

  3. #3
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    Re: Sinar M system

    Here you can see the modular nature of the Sinar m, and the relative size of its body and lenses.
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 30th June 2013 at 21:29.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Here is some detail of the beautiful Zeiss 40mm IF lens:
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 30th June 2013 at 21:29.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    And, here you can see an example of the Hassy V glass on the Sinar m:
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 30th June 2013 at 21:29.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Hi David,

    I really appreciate the answer and the images. There is so little info available on it, it is nice be a able to see it, and also see how the Hasselblad lens fits on it. When using the hasselblad (or Nikon for that matter), do you have to use the lens in step-down mode, or will the aperture work normally? I assume it is step-down mode because the Sinaron lenses do not have aperture rings. Also, I assume the digital back and camera are individually powered, right? Are basic exif transmitted to the back as well?

    It is a beautiful camera system; I love its simplicity, and the fact that it can be used both a 645 and then in the studio it can be attached to a P3.

    Do you know how much the body runs these days?

    Thanks for sharing,

    Gilles

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    Re: Sinar M system

    The different modules work differently. The Sinar AF mirror module has a nice large AF sensor and also accommodates the Hasselblad V lenses, so you get AF confirmation with the V lenses. However, there is no mechanism to stop-down the V lenses nor operate the leaf shutters in the lenses that have them. To me, stopping down is a fair trade-off for the fast and accurate focus confirmation.

    Now, with the Nikon module, it is the opposite. With the Nikon mirror module, there is no autofocus capability, but there is auto-stopdown of the lenses.

    The camera is powered by its own battery module (not shown in images). There are two types of battery, a compact one with flash shoe that can attach to the left side, or a larger one that can go underneath the body. In addition, it can be powered directly from any wall socket (with a very long cord) with an optional AC power module.

    Exif information is transmitted to the back and obtained in conjunction with the Sinar Exposure software (same as with Hy6).

    The prices are standardized by Sinar and you can find the 2008 price list online. I believe the body is roughly 6400 euro (about US 8600), but I believe there is a 20% promotion going on, at least in the US and until the end of the month. So, if you are serious about getting into this system, now is the time.

    Let me know if you have any more questions.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Many thanks David, much appreciated. I have no other questions really for the time being, except that I wonder why there is so little talk about the system. It is indeed quite expensive, but no more than the Hy6 for instance, in which I am very interested as well. Any thoughts?

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Thank you, David, for the info and the photos.
    May I ask how bright the view is through the prism compared to the Hy6?

    If you're willing and able,
    may I see the M sitting next to a Canon or Nikon for size reference, please?

    Regards,
    Billy

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Thank you, David, for the info and the photos.
    May I ask how bright the view is through the prism compared to the Hy6?

    If you're willing and able,
    may I see the M sitting next to a Canon or Nikon for size reference, please?

    Regards,
    Billy
    Hi Billy, this will give you an idea in hands:

    http://www.pbase.com/xon/photoforum_2006_moscow

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar M system

    Plenty of photos here, and a whole article about the camera:
    http://www.sinarcameras.com/newslett...nder_story.pdf

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Thank you, Graham.
    Last edited by BJNY; 20th October 2008 at 13:07.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilles L. View Post
    Many thanks David, much appreciated. I have no other questions really for the time being, except that I wonder why there is so little talk about the system. It is indeed quite expensive, but no more than the Hy6 for instance, in which I am very interested as well. Any thoughts?
    The Sinar m is very popular among the P3 users and those who mainly shoot for conservation and critical documentation purposes (e.g., museums) with the 54H back in 16-shot mode (equivalent of 4.5 micron pixel size, but with all of the advantages of 9 micron pixels). It is also one of the best kept secrets in automobile photography, since it can do high resolution multishot imaging with the Rodenstock 28mm HR lens. Many of these people just don't partake of the various forums.

    As for the Hy6, what can I say? It is another brilliant camera from Sinar. In some sense it is completely complementary to the Sinar m, since the Hy6 uses leaf shutter lenses exclusively. However, it handles totally differently, especially with rotating back and configurable side grip. I do not think it is fair to even compare these two cameras, as they both excel in different ways. That's why I shoot both.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Thank you, David, for the info and the photos.
    May I ask how bright the view is through the prism compared to the Hy6?

    If you're willing and able,
    may I see the M sitting next to a Canon or Nikon for size reference, please?

    Regards,
    Billy
    Hi Billy, there is no comparison, the Hy6 viewfinder is much brighter, but it is a little unfair to compare a 6x6 with a 645. The Sinar m viewfinder is about as bright as the Contax 645, if that helps. I don't have a Canon or Nikon to compare with, but here is a shot next to one of my Contax 645 bodies. As you know, the Contax 645 is pretty small and comparable to one of the 35mm pro cameras in size. All I can say is that the Sinar m is well balanced, and handles nicely with the sinaron and Hasselblad V lenses.
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 30th June 2013 at 21:29.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Thank you again, David.

    • The M looks to be using a Mamiya 645 prism, yes?
    • Do the M AF Zeiss lenses and Hasselblad lenses mount on the same mirror module?

    • I wonder if an arTec lens will mounted directly onto the M (sans mirror module)?

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    Re: Sinar M system

    *shiver* Shades of "Alien"
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Sinar M system

    More like a exploded bank account. May need some of that bailout money
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Plenty of photos here, and a whole article about the camera:
    http://www.sinarcameras.com/newslett...nder_story.pdf
    Hi Graham, i am familiar with this review. I have to disagree with the author's judgement about the autofocus speed. Certainly, it is not comparable to the speed of a 35mm system like the Canon 1DIII. However, as owner of both the Hy6 and the Sinar m, I can verify that the autofocus speed is very fast and NOT one bit slower than the Hy6. Also, the 120mm lens focuses somewhat slower than the other lenses, but I was told that it took a good deal of engineering to even make such an autofocus makro-planar lens. Zeiss was not able to do it for the Contax 120, but made some innovations for the Sinar 120 lens to make it happen. The 40 and the 80 are practically instantaneous focus for me.

    What I also like about the Sinar m is that the viewfinder information, including the left-right focus indicators, are exactly the same as in the Hy6. This makes shooting with both cameras really transparent from the viewfinder perspective.

    In fact, as much as I love the Contax 645, the Sinar m autofocus mechanism blows it away. The Sinar m can lock onto focus instantly in dim situations where the Contax 645 is either unable or "hunts" for focus.

    So, I guess if you are coming from the Canon/Nikon world, you might say that the autofocus appears slow, but for a medium format camera, I believe it to be as fast or faster than any other.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Thank you again, David.

    The M looks to be using a Mamiya 645 prism, yes?
    Do the M AF Zeiss lenses and Hasselblad lenses mount on the same mirror module?

    I wonder if an arTec lens will mounted directly onto the M (sans mirror module)?
    I have to admit....the prism does look a little Mamiya-like, but I do not think Mamiya has a removable prism.

    Yes, the M AF Zeiss lenses and Hasselblad V lenses share the same mirror module.

    No, the arTec lenses will not mount onto the M. Currently, there is only the Rodenstock HR 28mm lens that is offered on the M, and it has an exclusive helicoid mount.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    The Sinar m is very popular among the P3 users and those who mainly shoot for conservation and critical documentation purposes (e.g., museums)
    Many thanks David; I do conservation work, and this why I am interested in this system: http://www.gilleslorin.com/Photograp...otography.html

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Gilles, I visited your website gallery. The Sinar m is made for fine art repro work like yours. I know it seems a little expensive at first, but if you already own Hasselblad V lenses or a P3 system, you are way ahead already. And, because of its modular design, you can only buy what you need, and add items incrementally as you need them.

    In fact, if you really need to save some money, you do not even have to buy the AF mirror module if you shoot exclusively in your studio. Sinar makes a simple "Lens Module", which is basically an extension tube to fit your V lens to the M camera. This lens module is much less expensive (by like 10x) and is meant for studio use where you will be doing your composition and focusing tethered to your computer. This eliminates the expense of a viewfinder as well.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    David,

    Thanks for your very informative post.

    Pete

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Sinar makes a simple "Lens Module", which is basically an extension tube to fit your V lens to the M camera. This lens module is much less expensive (by like 10x) and is meant for studio use where you will be doing your composition and focusing tethered to your computer. This eliminates the expense of a viewfinder as well.
    David,

    Are lens modules available for Mamiya645 120mm macro, and for Nikon F-mount lenses?

    Thanks for the great firsthand info,
    Billy

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Billy, Sinar only makes the simple lens module for the Hasselblad lenses at this time. Actualy, it is really more than just a simple tube, since it also has connectivity for the Sinar LC Shutter (an LCD device to aid live focusing in the studio). It is this LC Shutter capability which adds to the complexity of the design; without that, it is a simple extension tube.

    So, what I am trying to tell you is that the LC shutter is an option, maybe even a luxury option, and that any good machinist can make you a tube to mount your Nikon-F or Mamiya glass onto the M camera. Of course, you will then need to use lenses that can be manually stopped down.
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 20th October 2008 at 15:40.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Thank you very much for all the information, David. If it was not such an expensive system, I think it would be ideal for what I do. But as you said I can gradually built it, and I already have the Hasselblad lenses. I will give it much thought.

    Thanks again,

    Gilles

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Hi David,

    The prism viewfinder looks exactly like a Mamiya Pro TL prism adapted to the Sinar M.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    To all, the 90 degree prism was the Mamiya prism which got modified for the Sinar m system. Why invent the wheel when it is already made.

    Also there is a waist level finder which is very cheap to get and it is around $400 only. Thus, there are many ways to own the Sinar m system and like David mentioned you can slowly build the whole system since each vital components can function without the whole Sinar m system.

    Best Regards,
    -Son

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    Re: Sinar M system

    I have been using the M-system for more than 2 years now. I started with the eMotion 22 and the full Sinar-M AF system. Later I picked up an almost new Sinar 54H multi shot back on eBay, than I bought a used Manfrotto motorised stand and an LC-Shutter. Now I have a sophisticated 16 -shot copying system, and I am sure that it will be competitive for many years. It did not come cheap, but for me the system is a very long term investment.

    I still do not own the P3, If I need movements I use my old Norma with Film. I do all my flat artwork shooting with the Sinar- M. I remember that somebody claimed that the AF lenses cannot be used for 16 shot shooting , that only Rodenstock HR lenses allow the best possible quality. I do not want to argue, but in my experience the 120mm. Makro is more than capable. The 40mm. is so good and so well corrected that I use it very often when I work with bigger objects on a short copying stand.

    The workflow for flat artwork shooting is very simple, The camera lives under the roof of the studio on the motorized vertical stand, in autofocus mode I am able to control the shooting parameters from the software with Live View (now LV works better with the LC Shutter). It saves time enormously. The new Sinar/Foba motorized stand (presented at Photokina2008) is even better, it allow the photographer to control the stand and 3D camera movements in CaptureShop.
    Yevgeny

  29. #29
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    Re: Sinar M system

    hi Gilles,

    please PM me your email contact and I shall send you some more info on the Sinar m.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilles L. View Post
    There is hardly any discussion on the Sinar M and I have not found any US$ pricing. Does anyone have any experience with the system and the different lens modules? Reading the specs, it is a really attractive system for anyone wanting versatility. This looks like a nice partner for the 54LV.

    Any information greatly appreciated!

    Thanks,

    Gilles

    www.gilleslorin.com

  30. #30
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M system

    Dear David,

    Thanks for these precisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Hi Graham, i am familiar with this review. I have to disagree with the author's judgement about the autofocus speed. Certainly, it is not comparable to the speed of a 35mm system like the Canon 1DIII. However, as owner of both the Hy6 and the Sinar m, I can verify that the autofocus speed is very fast and NOT one bit slower than the Hy6.
    I can confirm the very fast AF of the Sinar m.

    What I also like about the Sinar m is that the viewfinder information, including the left-right focus indicators, are exactly the same as in the Hy6. This makes shooting with both cameras really transparent from the viewfinder perspective.
    [/QUOTE]
    Yes, other technology from the Sinar m has been "taken over", respectively improved and is now in the Hy6: the same Sinar tech team has worked on both projects. That is why I do always "correct", when one says that the Hy6 camera is a Rollei(flex) camera. It is manufactured by the same people as the Rolleiflex 6008, has some inputs from them, but many comes from the Sinar m and is a Jenoptik camera/project.

    In fact, as much as I love the Contax 645, the Sinar m autofocus mechanism blows it away. The Sinar m can lock onto focus instantly in dim situations where the Contax 645 is either unable or "hunts" for focus.
    [/QUOTE]
    I do confirm this as well.

    best regards,
    Thierry

  31. #31
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    Re: Sinar M system

    Billy,

    yes it is a Mamiya prism.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Thank you again, David.

    The M looks to be using a Mamiya 645 prism, yes?

  32. #32
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M system

    Thank you David, again completely right.

    I should hire you, you seem to know the Sinar m system better than me!

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post

    In fact, if you really need to save some money, you do not even have to buy the AF mirror module if you shoot exclusively in your studio. Sinar makes a simple "Lens Module", which is basically an extension tube to fit your V lens to the M camera. This lens module is much less expensive (by like 10x) and is meant for studio use where you will be doing your composition and focusing tethered to your computer. This eliminates the expense of a viewfinder as well.
    Last edited by thsinar; 21st October 2008 at 04:35.

  33. #33
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    Re: Sinar M system

    Thierry,

    The M camera is a wonderful, wonderful system. Rather than buying a new DSLR camera every year or so, you can gradually build this M system to do just about anything.

    If you really want to shake up the industry, I would suggest adding a Rollei/Hy6 AF mirror module that would allow use of the Zeiss and Schneider leaf shutters. This would be a dream come true. It would more tightly integrate the Hy6 and Sinar M system, allowing the Hy6 lenses to be moved between the two.

    The Sinar M camera would then be a convenient and highly flexible body where one could switch between focal plane shutter and leaf shutter, and would compete effectively with upcoming dual-shutter offerings from Phase/Mamiya and Leica. There is no danger to Hy6 sales, as that camera has completely different advantages in shooting ergonomics (like BRIGHT viewfinder and rotating back, etc.). In fact, I would then view the Hy6 and M (and even P3) as merely different "accessories" within the same modular Sinar system.

    Another option is to help people get into the Sinar M system at a lower price point, by building a Contax 645 AF Mirror module, and allowing Contax 645 users to use their existing lenses on the M. This would increase the range of AF lenses for it, including the 35, 45-90 zoom and 350APO lenses, not to mention the 1:1 macro capability of the Contax APO 120. There is a huge base of Contax 645 users out there that would then have a future upgrade path to grow their needs.

    Just some thoughts.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    I'd like the front portion of the arTec to fit onto the M chasis,
    allowing for movements, and allowing for use of arTec lenses
    resulting in a high tech version of Alpa SWA and Arca R-line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    I'd like the front portion of the arTec to fit onto the M chasis,
    allowing for movements, and allowing for use of arTec lenses
    resulting in a high tech version of Alpa SWA and Arca R-line.
    The rangefinder wide angle lenses do not allow a mirror/viewfinder due to their short registration distances. So, you would have to manually force open the M shutter to do focusing. I agree that this would also be a useful addition to the M, but I would like to then have a ground glass focusing mechanism. It is not always possible to use live view tethered to the computer.

    You can begin to see just how versatile this M shutter system can be.

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    Re: Sinar M system

    How would an M be used on a p3 rear standard if the shutter can't be forced open for viewing?

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    Re: Sinar M system

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    How would an M be used on a p3 rear standard if the shutter can't be forced open for viewing?
    Yes, of course the shutter is forced open, but you can only use the live view mode as activated by the software. I was just adding that I would also like to see this work without being tethered. This would make the system more mobile, when needed.

    The Contax 645 has a separate jack for a mechanical cable, where you can manually force open the shutter. That is what I was thinking would be useful for the Sinar m as well.

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