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Thread: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Marc

    the problem is only I live inside this castle and rely on my landlords being healthy. I really care for the future of this special medium , but sometimes it seems I´m the only one who has realized the south wing of the castle is already burning ! And everytime I shout fire the other inhabitants just say : calm down - who cares......... ???

    The secret weapons, yes we had a sad history on these in Germany, maybe this is the reason why I´don´t believe in these anymore.

    Regards
    Stefan
    Stefan, you seem to contradict yourself.

    You call for more MFD innovation, then discount the notion of "Secret Weapon" while oddly linking it to a historical political analogy.

    I also don't see you as pointing out that the "West Wing is Burning", but more like someone screaming "FIRE" in the MFD theater ... with predictable results

    Then lobbing Molotov Cocktail headlines into the theater just to assure a rush to the door by the insecure trying to avoid death. This is no help what-so-ever for the "Medium you really care for".

    IMO, the answer to 35mm becoming more MFD like, isn't to make MFD more 35mm like. That is a losing strategy. MFD has to concentrate on being more MF like, not less.

    (Example: When Leica innovated the S2 it wasn't to make a Medium format camera ... it was to make a 35mm like camera with some aesthetic attributes of medium format ... and to carry a whole new set of Leica lenses which is what they are really famous for. If Leica had chosen to make an R-10 it would have sold to Leica lovers, including me ... but the 35mm pricing paradigm would have limited the potential, and really have been impacted by the D800 type offerings ... instead they swam upstream by themselves with a unique camera format, at a price that requires fewer sales than 35mm would have dictated ... and aimed it at a small percentage of buyers ... plus, unlike MFD companies, their flagship profit machine is the M ... not a stripped down, crippled version of the S2).

    I think cameras like the Hy6 was the right direction, but it didn't follow the prevailing "compete with 35mm DSLRs marketing mentality" that MFD adopted to make more sales. Very short term thinking which was bound to be truncated by the rate of 35mm innovation sooner than later ... as it turns out it was "sooner".

    In contrast ... imagine a Hy6 type camera, with a highly integrated 56 X 56 sensor back, user selected crop to square, landscape or portrait (a feature on the old square chip Kodak ProBack BTW) A series of Zeiss and Schneider optics, improved AF, or at least an innovation like Hasselblad's True Focus. Everything dedicated to IQ without a bunch of do-dads to distract from that goal. Then every owner treated like a super-star photographer with service and attention second to none. How would THAT stack up against a D800 IF one had the need and/or desire for an indisputable "LOT MORE" than good enough?

    Fact is IF a photographer need only produce for web and smaller applications, or "good enough is good enough", they haven't needed MFD for years now. There are those who DO grasp the differences that MFD makes, and those differences need to be both magnified with innovation ... and especially they need to be marketed as THE point of difference ... as someone already mentioned, perception is everything, and the MFD companies have done a poor job of competitively controlling perceptions.

    -Marc
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Yes MF is still MF in technichal output quality the 35mm is almost as good as the file output what we are used of in MF.

    But there are two things.

    1. the feel of MF in portret shootings you can never achieve with 35mm. i know you guys are all landscape guys, so maybe this is different for you guys. but for me i can't get the organic look of MF in 35mm without distortion and clarity.

    2. everybody is super focused on the dynamic range and sharpness of the files.
    which are good but relative good (again maybe for you landscape guys its perfect).
    the fullness in the files are in the shadows, there is not so much of a stretch in the highlights. i don't know what it is but. for portrait and fashion retouching the files aren't holding up in photoshop.
    the highlights seems to be super linear or something (d3x had more of a shoulder in the files). a small curves moves and you will see what i mean. skin doesn't hold up in curves moves, hair detail looks funky and plastic because of the harsh highlights and sharpness.

    So my conclusion d800 is a fine camera but not for fashion and portrait

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    I can't speak for other cameras but all the HC lenses I've used take a dump on the Canon L glass.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Marc

    do you really think it will help, if you don´t speak about it ?

    OK you state you don´t care about the price - well....
    you stated earlier you don´t care about the better DR or you just deny it exists because CCD´s have this Miracle thing - hmmm
    you state it does not matter to have better handling and easier usage....???

    and then you say I shall imagine what it could be if a perfect MF would exist that would treat the customers like kings.....and all of the MF gear functions perfectly out of the box......

    Hey - who is unrealistic here ? Maybe most of the other people take interest in these points ?

    I know the best image quality today is achieved with 60 or 80 Mpix backs or Multishot - at a cost. Nobody discusses this. But how many percent of the market is this ? Right now the "low end" has eaten most of the volume market, what is left for a MF Maker, can they survive this ? How can future R&D be paid facing shrinking turnarounds ? Who will devellop such a nice large chip for those some thousand people worldwide that think like you ? Of course you can use your back and be happy ever after. In ten years the tech support will stop and maybe then you will have retired and do not care anymore. but what about the people who want or need to buy something in 2-3 years or later, then facing maybe 40-60 Mpix 35mm EVILs at a similar pricepoint(3000$) and MF is still using CCD´s, Mirrors/no Life view and low ISO ?

    I want to make a living with future customers who will stay in this segment and know why they invest. But at the current point I don´t see this happening.

    And this gives me big headaches.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    I just tested D800 against IQ180 in studio shot of some shoes for a billboard prints going up in Europe and Japan.
    Sorry, but the Nikon D800 (testing the D800e later) was not ready for primetime. It delivered on resolution, but not sharpness, IQ, or color; and it's LV and software controls were a joke (in studio work) compared to C1 or even Canon.
    I am not a professional evaluator, just a successful product shooter with two studios and a couple decades experience, but the D800 promise is stronger than its delivery as of yet.
    This doesn't mean I don't want MFD prices to come down....a lot. I treat them like cars, anything more than $30k for a system and it better give happy ending
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Marc

    do you really think it will help, if you don´t speak about it ?

    OK you state you don´t care about the price - well....
    you stated earlier you don´t care about the better DR or you just deny it exists because CCD´s have this Miracle thing - hmmm
    you state it does not matter to have better handling and easier usage....???

    and then you say I shall imagine what it could be if a perfect MF would exist that would treat the customers like kings.....and all of the MF gear functions perfectly out of the box......

    Hey - who is unrealistic here ? Maybe most of the other people take interest in these points ?

    I know the best image quality today is achieved with 60 or 80 Mpix backs or Multishot - at a cost. Nobody discusses this. But how many percent of the market is this ? Right now the "low end" has eaten most of the volume market, what is left for a MF Maker, can they survive this ? How can future R&D be paid facing shrinking turnarounds ? Who will devellop such a nice large chip for those some thousand people worldwide that think like you ? Of course you can use your back and be happy ever after. In ten years the tech support will stop and maybe then you will have retired and do not care anymore. but what about the people who want or need to buy something in 2-3 years or later, then facing maybe 40-60 Mpix 35mm EVILs at a similar pricepoint(3000$) and MF is still using CCD´s, Mirrors/no Life view and low ISO ?

    I want to make a living with future customers who will stay in this segment and know why they invest. But at the current point I don´t see this happening.

    And this gives me big headaches.

    Regards
    Stefan
    I think you are confusing me with someone else ... I never said I don't care about price ... I said if I already have the gear and it's doing the job, I don't need to buy something else and take a big loss on what I already have. If I could get a H4D/60 for 1/2 price when I first bought it ... of course ... Duh, who wouldn't like that?

    Also NEVER said anything about perfection out of the box, so out of context exaggerating doesn't help with the discussion. I said equal opportunity excellent service with items this expensive. To date, this is exactly what I've experienced with the Leica S2, which was NOT perfect out of the box ... however, I was taken care of instantly, with no bull crap, and got an apology for the inconvenience.

    Who says MFD has to be a volume market? Either there is enough market for top level IQ or there isn't. If not, then nature will take its course. Turning MFD into a 35mm DSLR is a formula for extinction for sure ... 35mm won't sit still, of that I am certain.

    Currently, there is nothing that I do not served by what I have ... I use MFD in studio mostly (like where it all started), LCD is okay for quick checks, but most work is shot to a 30" screen and I can use live view video feed to adjust compositions, and Phocus to overlay a layout to match space. The tool fits the job.

    I've worked on numerous paying jobs with Phase One tools and the same hold true there.

    Perdicting 10 years out is a fool's errand. 10 years ago most everything was shot on film. 10 years from now, the 35mm DSLR will probably be extinct ... repalaced by some new technology we can even dream of right now. Maybe the new 100 meg Apple iPhoto IV the size of a thumb-drive ...

    -Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 19th May 2012 at 10:43.

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Shoot me for quoting ebay but I've been watching this for a few days, these prices are pretty common here in the UK.

    eBay - The UK's Online Marketplace

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    The HB prices dropped like this before the last Photokina (if I remember correctly) . Don t the MF businesses (HB&Phase) run off a model of planned obsolescence and creating demand for a constant refresh cycle. The 40MP backs superseded by the 60MP and now the 80MP ....with customer friendly trade ins .

    What has changed is the market for used MF equipment ...the D800 seems like a viable alternative to a semi pro or advanced amateur that wants to move up in IQ . That HB 39MP body and two lenses looks like quite a deal for an emerging pro on a budget . If he is successful he keeps the glass and trades the back in ...looks like a nice model and one the dealers should support .

    Trade Up cycles every two years drain the funds of the loyal followers pretty quickly at the prices of an IQ180 . Don t believe this can be continued long term.

    The D800 may have taken just enough out of the used prices to really hurt the MF market ..but HB dropped there prices to clear inventory before Photokina and create sales in a market frozen by an assumption that “big and better things “ will be coming. They will but they will be hard to get and cost a small fortune . Don t see any MF vendors really trying to take cost out of their systems .

    My view is that they do not have a sustainable business model at this point ...the concept of produce the best and charge very high prices is hard to pull off in a small market . Leica is the exception not the rule (and the value of the lenses really holds up) . Photokina will tell us a lot .

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    The HB prices dropped like this before the last Photokina (if I remember correctly) . Don t the MF businesses (HB&Phase) run off a model of planned obsolescence and creating demand for a constant refresh cycle. The 40MP backs superseded by the 60MP and now the 80MP ....with customer friendly trade ins .

    What has changed is the market for used MF equipment ...the D800 seems like a viable alternative to a semi pro or advanced amateur that wants to move up in IQ . That HB 39MP body and two lenses looks like quite a deal for an emerging pro on a budget . If he is successful he keeps the glass and trades the back in ...looks like a nice model and one the dealers should support .

    Trade Up cycles every two years drain the funds of the loyal followers pretty quickly at the prices of an IQ180 . Don t believe this can be continued long term.

    The D800 may have taken just enough out of the used prices to really hurt the MF market ..but HB dropped there prices to clear inventory before Photokina and create sales in a market frozen by an assumption that “big and better things “ will be coming. They will but they will be hard to get and cost a small fortune . Don t see any MF vendors really trying to take cost out of their systems .

    My view is that they do not have a sustainable business model at this point ...the concept of produce the best and charge very high prices is hard to pull off in a small market . Leica is the exception not the rule (and the value of the lenses really holds up) . Photokina will tell us a lot .
    I couldn't agree more. I see nothing special here. Hasselblad has done similar discounts in the past and will do them again in the future. And I am also of the opinion that neither Hasselblad nor Phase One has a long term sustainable business model. Phase One may have had the best year ever last year. I would be surprised if they can pull that off once more in a market that has changed a/o due to the D800. Most of the Phase One/Leaf upgrades or even cross-grades cost a minimum of $10-15K and that in a market where a D800 can be had for $3K... Pure madness... You cannot expect the same very small group of people to invest the same sums of money every 2 or 3 years, completely not realistic in my opinion.

    BTW, I was at Calumet last week, I heard somebody say that the time on the waiting list for a D800 is now 8 months... Is that indeed true?

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    I liken it to music.

    We had Mono, Stereo, 4 channel, 4.1, 5 Channel, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, DTS, Dolby etc.
    People used to buy seperate sound cards for their machines now nearly every board has one built into it. But now we don't seem to of had much in the way of innovation because it's good enough and there's no demoand for better.

    With the new Intel chips they have graphics built in. How long before they become fast and powerful enough to satisfy the need of those who currently use PCI cards. Why use Nvidia if Intel supply it on chip.

    Currently my machine is fast enough to the point CS6 doesn't run any faster because it can't really or at least it could but with severely diminishing returns of investment.

    Whatever the product there is only so much demand for certain things at any given quality and price point. I don't feel the need to improve on my brand of coffee and my toilet paper feels fine too.

    The digital revolution pulled a load of people from film. Now Kodak has hit the toilet.
    My 5D3 has more dynamic range than my P25 - But it's soft as mud compared due to the AA filter and lacks the MF format look. But for most the 5D3 is good enough.

    Slowly people are being leeched from the medium format much the same as with film. It's a shame really. I still say that Hasselblad should of researched CMOS tech (no doubt there's reasons they didn't). Get a fat sensor from Sony stick it in. ISO6400 yes please.

    I'm sure if Hasselblad relaunched the 22mp back and body for 3k ($4500) they'd sell loads. People still care about image quality.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    I hate to say it, but I think the launch and pricing structure of the new Credo´s is a big mistake. They should have cut the leaf prices and do an agressive Pricing structure with the aptus backs catching the lower segment and fighting the 35mm 36MPix + X bodies to come. Now they have moved Leaf upwards and lowered their adaptability to pricecuts to fight back. The Credos may even cannibalize the IQ´s which is the second mistake as they are too feature similar.

    I´m sorry, but this was not thought out well.

    Regards
    Stefan
    Stefan
    I think you are right ......big mistakes.

    I actually don't understand why Team Phase One chose to assimilate
    the Leaf Aptus product line to a "B" pricing/features of the IQ product line.
    What is the difference between a Credo and an IQ other than price and a couple of features like focus mask & electronic level?
    For the tech camera market sector, the Aptus 10 & 12 AFi versions are truly innovative products with the internal rotating sensors and tilting LCD panels.......all they needed was a new higher resolution LCD panel (they could even choose to include "luxury " features like focus mask and electronic level) and a more competitive price point.
    It seems that Team Phase has chosen not to invest in the Leaf Aptus product line........removing the "functional" features (rotating sensor & tilting LCD) and replacing with a better LCD and labeling it a Credo.

    After acquiring Leaf, why not maintain the product differentiation and evolve that difference since all sales profits come to the same corporation?

    There is innovation pressure from the top:broader dynamic range sensor from the Red One Cinema. Innovation pressure from the bottom: DSLR pricing and increase in pixels, & a working live view.

    You are right, not thought out well......


    regards

    prakash
    Last edited by prakash; 19th May 2012 at 08:20. Reason: include signature

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    Senior Member Nathan W. Lediard's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    I dont thin Hasselblad really care too much about what Nikon releases... As for it being the reason for a price campaign? purely speculation...

    Lots of this speculation can be seen all the time with the Nikon vs Canon discussions that dominate the boards, and one of the reasons I dont bother with most forums anymore.. lots of amateurs speculating about the latest and greatest and if canon does this then surely Nikon must do that... and now Nikon has gone up to 36 megapixels folks are doing the same now with hasselblad... well I dont buy it.

    I just invested in a h4d-40 and some lenses for my business... AFTER the d800 came out.. did it offer me anything (apart from more pixels) that my 1DsmkIII did not offer me... not really... not for what I do... very high ISO is not needed for what I do... neither is Video... and canon are really chasing the video ball at the moment....
    I bought (back) into Hasselblad because I can do certain things with it that are not as easliy done with 35mm cameras... real 1/800 sync for example... And of course the look.. really on big prints and not on small web images it does show. The quality of the files is just amazing too, the lenses are fantastic, and I sold my EF200 f2.0L partly to pay for the hassy... I am very happy with my Hasselblad.. and even if i bought it at full price just a month before they made a discount offer.... I am still happy... great camera just in a different league to anything canon or nikon have.

    just my 2 kroner on the subject.
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    It IS _A_ fact.....

    Regards
    Stefan

    PS.: Sometimes I would wish I would be prooved wrong.........
    LOL. It could not be simply arranging facts to fit your conclusion?

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    A more sensible thread title would have simply referred to the reduced prices. There are many reasons why Hasselblad might have reduced prices, the D800 probably the least likely of them. I'd wager the D800 effect is irrelevant in this decision; more likely it reflects the general state of the world economy or possiblly a new or updated camera in the works.
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    A more sensible thread title would have simply referred to the reduced prices. There are many reasons why Hasselblad might have reduced prices, the D800 probably the least likely of them. I'd wager the D800 effect is irrelevant in this decision; more likely it reflects the general state of the world economy or possiblly a new or updated camera in the works.
    Bingo and I said it in my first post. We are in a cycle
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    I don't think the intent of this thread was to be sensible. Some people seem to enjoy "stirring the pot."

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bingo and I said it in my first post. We are in a cycle
    So long as its not a downward spiral
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I'd wager the D800 effect is irrelevant in this decision; more likely it reflects the general state of the world economy or possiblly a new or updated camera in the works.
    Possibly a new camera from HB!

    From past track record that's got to be a least 18months of actually reaching users.

    On a serious note, I'd love to see HB deliver to market a killer product and come back fighting but I fear it will just be a competitor to the IQ/Credo backs rather than something totally new. Great for existing HB users but not that great for the MFD industry. Unless HB's new owners have very deep pockets I don't see how any MF company has enough financial clout to release an industry changing product now.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    BTW, I was at Calumet last week, I heard somebody say that the time on the waiting list for a D800 is now 8 months... Is that indeed true?
    My local Nikon dealer said "may be 6 months". They don't have clear idea. So far they only sold 4.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bingo and I said it in my first post. We are in a cycle
    "It would appear that the lower end of the medium format industry has been formally put on notice by Nikon." Michael Reichmann

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan W. Lediard View Post
    I dont thin Hasselblad really care too much about what Nikon releases... As for it being the reason for a price campaign? purely speculation...

    Lots of this speculation can be seen all the time with the Nikon vs Canon discussions that dominate the boards, and one of the reasons I dont bother with most forums anymore.. lots of amateurs speculating about the latest and greatest and if canon does this then surely Nikon must do that... and now Nikon has gone up to 36 megapixels folks are doing the same now with hasselblad... well I dont buy it.

    I just invested in a h4d-40 and some lenses for my business... AFTER the d800 came out.. did it offer me anything (apart from more pixels) that my 1DsmkIII did not offer me... not really... not for what I do... very high ISO is not needed for what I do... neither is Video... and canon are really chasing the video ball at the moment....
    I bought (back) into Hasselblad because I can do certain things with it that are not as easliy done with 35mm cameras... real 1/800 sync for example... And of course the look.. really on big prints and not on small web images it does show. The quality of the files is just amazing too, the lenses are fantastic, and I sold my EF200 f2.0L partly to pay for the hassy... I am very happy with my Hasselblad.. and even if i bought it at full price just a month before they made a discount offer.... I am still happy... great camera just in a different league to anything canon or nikon have.

    just my 2 kroner on the subject.
    1) You may not need high ISO & Video. However many other photographers needs it, ncluding me. What we were missing is high ISO with high mega pixel. Nikon delivered it!

    2) Comparatively how many photographers need high ISO sync? None of the landscape photographers and even not all portrait photographers.

    3) You may have deep pocket and you don't care even you lost 20% value in one month. However many of use cares about our hard earned money. Did you notice that one of moderator of this forum already downsized his MFDB for "business reason" and expanding his Nikon lens collections?

    Personally I would like MFDB to survive and protect my investment in this technology. But I don't think that is happening. That's the reality, everyone likes it or not.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    "It would appear that the lower end of the medium format industry has been formally put on notice by Nikon." Michael Reichmann
    Since when was MF format never been on notice. This threat is every new camera that has hit the market. Yes the Nikon is great and sure it has 36mpx and of course anything below that in MF will be questioned. Does any of this actually change what MF can actually produce. And yes I went down to a iq 140 . I don't have to worry about a crop factor anymore since I don't shoot the DF which is the only reason I went to the 160 in the first place. Since I don't shoot the DF and use a tech cam than I can drop down to the crop without affecting much. End of day and I said this for several years 40 is enough for me and I absolutely loved my P40. That has not changed and never will. Please tell me now we have a Nikon does that mean all our backs all of a sudden just became dinosaurs. No let me tell you I'm in both camps and I will support both camps because they are diffrent and they do many things for me. Everything a Pro buys is client driven or at least should be. If I had life my way I would have a M9 three lenses and go have fun. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    1) You may not need high ISO & Video. However many other photographers needs it, ncluding me. What we were missing is high ISO with high mega pixel. Nikon delivered it!

    2) Comparatively how many photographers need high ISO sync? None of the landscape photographers and even not all portrait photographers.

    3) You may have deep pocket and you don't care even you lost 20% value in one month. However many of use cares about our hard earned money. Did you notice that one of moderator of this forum already downsized his MFDB for "business reason" and expanding his Nikon lens collections?

    Personally I would like MFDB to survive and protect my investment in this technology. But I don't think that is happening. That's the reality, everyone likes it or not.

    You just bought a brand new BMW you drove it off the lot and into the street you just depreciated about 5 k before you had a chance to roll the window down. Luckily I was talking BMW and not Chevy. Go buy a boat and watch your money sink even the fish can't catch it. This is just life

    Honestly I'm sensing sour grapes here. Forget your investment go shoot and create art, none of this you can control so go have fun with it and enjoy the amazing files you can get from it. I really mean that in the most friendly way. Enjoy it don't curse it. It's fun and as a hobbyists it should be all about the fun and joy of photography. Photography is a poor investment unless you got Leica gear right now. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You just bought a brand new BMW you drove it off the lot and into the street you just depreciated about 5 k before you had a chance to roll the window down. Luckily I was talking BMW and not Chevy. Go buy a boat and watch your money sink even the fish can't catch it. This is just life

    Honestly I'm sensing sour grapes here. Forget your investment go shoot and create art, none of this you can control so go have fun with it and enjoy the amazing files you can get from it. I really mean that in the most friendly way. Enjoy it don't curse it. It's fun and as a hobbyists it should be all about the fun and joy of photography. Photography is a poor investment unless you got Leica gear right now. Lol
    Guy, with due respect to you, BMW analogy is meaning less here. :-)

    Price of the BMW will remain same in the dealership. So my selling price will be relative to what dealers will be selling. I guarantee you that whether it is BMW or Prius, I will be able to sell it.

    Now, I have seen how many Phase One backs are waiting to be sold in GetDPI & LL and I know since how long those are waiting.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Lease and trade ins always demand a higher mark up with brand names to continue selling new product. You don't have to lease a d800 it's a cash deal.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    What you not watching or understanding is last year the amount of IQ backs and P65 for that matter because the upgrade was very inexpensive to the IQ 180 that the numbers of new units sold was unprecedented . I'm serious the numbers are huge it was a big hit and almost every p65 user jumped all over it. We are talking sales in the quadruple numbers than all these dealers are familiar with in past years. Now with that amount also comes the attrition . People decide its too much hassle or whatever reason they have. Or downsizing or just getting out. We are talking mostly hobbyist here and things change for them they don't have to have anything for that matter. Sure the Nikon has has some affect but I think that is mostly fence sitters and people upgrading. It's really just a cycle. I worked in the aerospace industry for 16 years as a shooter no less but in commercial aircraft area they had 5 and 10 year cycles that either your building avionics for new or your not . Very little middle ground in those cycles.

    I know you just got in but really is this having a true effect on you right now from going out and shooting and enjoying your new toys . No its not and the more time you put on it the less you will feel the depreciation on it as well and get some use out of it. Honestly I would not be paying much attention to any of this as a hobbyist. Hobbyist mentality is usually buy what I want regardless of price and regardless of depreciation it's something you enjoy outside your day job. Ask some of the hobbyist here they don't care about this stuff they just want to enjoy what they bought. I have two kids you know how much crap I have bought them over the years and never recouped one dime from resale of it. That is if I can find it or it's broken. Lol

    Honestly don't fall into this fireball from hell torch throwing going on. If I was truly worried about it I would have sold my tech cam and got out completely. I'm not I enjoy it and it serves a need but you also have to realize that Pros do weird stuff too and make adjustments, we do not have the luxury of thinking like a hobbyist. I said this many times I envy you folks. You can do whatever the hell you want here.

    I hope that helps you, I really do I love this business and I love seeing people actually enjoy it and not think about this stuff. Have fun
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    As far as Hasselblad dropping prices, I would think the normal product cycle/cost to manufacture could be a big part. By now much of the R&D costs of the sensors as well as improvement in yields because of new manufacturing tech could easily have brought those prices down ... it could be this may still yield similar margins to what they saw when the cameras were new.

    It's not like dropping the price made them at all competitive with the d800 ... if that was their reason, then their marketing staff may need a paradigm shift. While I don't doubt is was a factor, my guess it was probably gonna happen even if the d800 would have only been a 24mp offering.
    wayne
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Stefan, That makes sense and also clears up my confusion about Leica opening boutique shops.

    But then that does not explain the MM. I guess I am easily confused.
    No confusion. Leica is targeting ONLY high end and/or specialists buyers and offering unique products to fit them. In their business model, Nikon and Canon nor Phase One and Hasselblad are among the completive set for Leica ... they do not exist.

    The Leica S2 is a one of a kind and has been strongly positioned as a "Fashion and Beauty" tool (marketing by association). The M9 is the only FF traditional rangefinder, as will be the M10 ... the M Monochrom is even more exclusive. Exclusivity sells, and often sells even in a crappy economy. Leica is placing all retail environments in toni locations and continues to offer designer label M9s ... all part of a well thought out strategy of marketing by association. Birds with Bucks flock together.

    BTW, this particular Luxury market is highly susceptible to history ... products with linage have a foot in the door so to speak. Leica has a storied history to draw upon, and that is exactly what they are doing. It is a patina that adds a reassuring and softening touch to high technology.

    BTW, stuff like this sells like hot cakes in emerging financial powerhouse economies. China being one. Especially European luxury Brands. If I recall correctly, the CEO of Hasselblad made mention of this when the European equity company took over less than a year ago ... but retained the former Asian owners on the board (guess why). Hasselblad also has a storied history which cannot be faked, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to capitalize on that. Whether they do or not remains to be seen.

    -Marc

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    About 10 years ago, there was a joke circulating among the Russians with whom I worked:
    "Nice tie! How much did you pay for it?"
    "$700"
    "Fool! I know a place that has it at twice the price!"

    --Matt

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    Honestly I'm sensing sour grapes here. Forget your investment go shoot and create art, none of this you can control so go have fun with it and enjoy the amazing files you can get from it. I really mean that in the most friendly way. Enjoy it don't curse it. It's fun and as a hobbyists it should be all about the fun and joy of photography. Photography is a poor investment unless you got Leica gear right now. Lol
    Guy

    I can only agree to what you say here .

    And additional to that , I would like to make you guys have a look to Dan Lindberg's phantastic interior images taken with a DB with less than 40MP .
    That made me think of going for an APTUS II-7 with 33MP fat pixels insted of a back with 60 or 80 MP .
    Going "backwards" could be going forward .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  31. #81
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Exactly Dans interior shots are stunning. This is exactly why I'm keeping my tech cam. I'm not stupid I know what the best image quality is and I'm holding on to it. I got both that makes me a freaking genius . LOL

    I'm joking of course. But seriously there is just something about MF that I'm not willing to give up and I really don't want too. I worked to hard to get here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Lots of speculation and assumptions going on ... fueled by unsubstantiated "facts".

    This company or that company "not doing so well" ... but nothing to back it up but anecdotal speculation and hearsay. Aren't these MFD companies privately held? Where are the facts and figures to provide a shred of proof?

    I look at Hasselblad and less than a year ago, a savvy Swiss/German equity firm with a hi-tech portfolio takes over 100% of Hasselblad. They retain the former Asian distribution owners on the board, and that company retains full distribution in Asia ... a huge emerging market for brands with historical equity ... especially storied European brands.

    Hasselblad is not a big company, therefore it has to focus resources. To my mind, it is conceivable that the new owners served to focus those efforts better than in past ... and then backed it with an infusion of capital to make it happen. Give it some time to bear fruit.

    Meanwhile it is business as usual ... anyone that has been with Hasselblad products as long as I have has seen this before regardless of competitive situations or not. Who remembers the deal including the then new $7,500 Zeiss 40/4 CFE IF? I do, I got one. Big lens discounts have been offered like clock work. I also got the $7.600 HCD/35-90 for a fraction of retail ... used it, then sold it at a relatively good price but still at a nice profit. Win-Win for buyer and seller. I also sold my H4D/40 for what seemed like a shockingly low price at the time ... didn't lose one thin dime on it due to shrewd buying going in, tax write-offs and having taken advantage of an accompanying lens deal. Impatience is what makes this stuff more expensive than it need be.

    >>> RANT ALERT <<<

    Why MFD in the face of almost as good? IMO, because MFD is more than a little better. Not an elitists POV, but one based on specific application needs both of my picky as hell clients, and more importantly my own never satisfied standards. Good enough may be the mantra of others, it will NEVER be mine. I'll go to the grave whispering that I wished I had done better ... worked harder, created better ideas, done more with lighting, made more worthy images, did the best I could to do ... more, better, the best possible that I could manage ... even IF it involved personal sacrifice.

    I always think I am average, and I DESPISE average. I think the word "consensus" is a weasel word that weakly excuses personal compromise. What is in my head is always leagues ahead of what I seem able to do ... that pisses me off no end, and is the fuel that drives forward movement.

    A dear friend recently asked me why I can't seem to take a sincere compliment on my work and knowledge? I responded that I appreciated it as much as anyone else, but never think about it much. He asked why that was, didn't I think that I deserve it? I thought about it for a minute and realized why that was. I spent my whole life in the company of like kinds, from special art education as a kid, onto art school, as a painter, designer, then art director and creative director in advertising. Being really good was the price of entry, being "good enough" got you the office next to the exit ... next step being out the door.

    Positioning a tool as an exact fit for the best possible result given the application is fine ... horses for courses ... however positioning it as "good enough" is a slippery path, metaphorically it's the office next to the exit IMO.

    >>> END RANT <<<<

    Marc
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  33. #83
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ..... I'm not stupid I know what the best image quality is and I'm holding on to it. I got both that makes me a freaking genius . LOL

    I'm joking of course. But seriously there is just something about MF that I'm not willing to give up and I really don't want too. I worked to hard to get here.
    This is what a few of my friends would call a "true joke." I think it's pretty damned smart and great professionally if you have the best of both worlds: A flagship DSLR and a MFDB make for a perfect complement.

    Common sense to me, but otherwise Guy, you're freaking genius!

  34. #84
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Lol

    I keep telling my wife that she just laughs. I get your just a camera slut. LOL

    See even she knows it. Now I'm after a backup, freaking never ending battle.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ...Just can't beat the Rodies and Schneiders no matter what back you have...
    This is a large part of what it comes down too. Same with Leica/Hassie/Mamiya's SK Lenses.

    The target segment for Canon/Nikon seems most at risk to me. As people switch in to mirrorless or give up "photography" completely and stick with a phone and instigram. According to Erwin Puts "In Germany in 2011 the mirror-less system cameras grew with more than 60% while the reflex market hardly grew at all."

  36. #86
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    A lot of people just give up and pick another hobby. I gave up golf for like 3 years now I'm back playing more but I was a weekend warrior. Happens to everyone it's a hobby which gives you a choice.

    New hobby dirt bike riding with my son. I'm nuts but we are leaving now. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ...there is just something about MF that I'm not willing to give up...
    >Sorry Guy to keep quoting you, but I want to add some colour<

    I really feel the D800/MF argument is hyperbole because most people will never choose to own a Leica, or the D800 or Hassie and probably have never heard of Mamiya/Phase One. As far back as I can remember anyway, that's the way things have always been. Leica is the only true SF alternative [to MF] because of the glass. The segment for this gear is small and Hassie are losing out to Phase/Leaf not to Nikon, because Hassie's horrible ego is in the way of their progress. Closed systems, everyone's dream, etc. etc. From childhood I was enamoured with Hassie, but their attitude turned me off, Mamiya were there with something special.

    fwiw, here's a name to end the SF/MF [D800] debate. Nick Brandt.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    I had an interesting experience a few weeks ago. Decided it was time to enter the digital MF world and wondered what some my old equipment would fetch. Got it out and checked it. The 35 year old Master Technica kit--still perfect. The coupled ranger finder worked good, the bellows is in fine shape, the shutters all worked perfectly. Good to go. The electronic stuff--not doing so well. Some DOA, ready for the trash can. I wonder how much of this gear we're having these sometimes heated discussions about will be in the landfill 20 years from now. My day job is electronics manufacturer. We try to support the the equipment we sell as long as we can (it's all very expensive) but after about 8 years we usually have to give up. Components become obsolete and disappear from the market. Some of the older IC's can't even be manufactured on the newer fab lines. The choice it to either buy up a lifetime supply of components for supporting the legacy products or let them go. We can't afford the former, from what I see everyone else but the military is in the same boat. Reading this forum has reminded me that camera gear is no different. These realities make it difficult for someone who isn't making a living off their camera equipment to lay out upwards of $30K for a kit knowing that support may go away in 10 years.

    I found out the Linhof isn't worth much so I'll probably keep it. It's fun to use sometimes and it still works great.
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by lmeiners View Post
    I had an interesting experience a few weeks ago. Decided it was time to enter the digital MF world and wondered what some my old equipment would fetch. Got it out and checked it. The 35 year old Master Technica kit--still perfect. The coupled ranger finder worked good, the bellows is in fine shape, the shutters all worked perfectly. Good to go. The electronic stuff--not doing so well. Some DOA, ready for the trash can. I wonder how much of this gear we're having these sometimes heated discussions about will be in the landfill 20 years from now. My day job is electronics manufacturer. We try to support the the equipment we sell as long as we can (it's all very expensive) but after about 8 years we usually have to give up. Components become obsolete and disappear from the market. Some of the older IC's can't even be manufactured on the newer fab lines. The choice it to either buy up a lifetime supply of components for supporting the legacy products or let them go. We can't afford the former, from what I see everyone else but the military is in the same boat. Reading this forum has reminded me that camera gear is no different. These realities make it difficult for someone who isn't making a living off their camera equipment to lay out upwards of $30K for a kit knowing that support may go away in 10 years.

    I found out the Linhof isn't worth much so I'll probably keep it. It's fun to use sometimes and it still works great.
    As a few reference points: the Phase One H25 which is now coming on 12 years old is still supported in the latest OS, latest desktops/laptops, and latest Capture One software. However as of Jan 1 of this year Phase One can no longer guarantee repairs on it (as you discussed some parts are simply no longer available); when they had to announce this they offered a temporary upgrade offer for H25 owners which valued their back at FAR above it's market value.

    The original Phase One Powerphase scan back (not the later firewire model) which was based on SCSI was likewise end-of-life'd last year after 14 years. The ability to get SCSI parts (and the hardware/software to test/maintain them) forced this.

    Likewise I think it's fully expected that in 12-15 years the IQ series will no longer be able to be repaired. For most buyers this is very acceptable, especially when compared to the alternatives of dSLRs. Tethering the Nikon D2X is no longer officially supported in Nikon's latest software, likewise the Canon 1Ds II and 5D Mark 1 are no longer supported tethered to EOS utility.

    In the dSLR world it's not uncommon for a model to be considered entirely out-dated just 2-3 years after launch (e.g. Canon 5D to 5D2 was 3 years) and certainly 12-15 years for a dSLR might as well be an eon. For quick reference 9 years ago was the Canon 1Ds and 13 years ago was the <3 megapixel Nikon D1.

    Or take computers for instance. The Power Mac G5 is only 9 years old and is nearly completely useless for nearly any mainstream work (cannot run recent versions of any major software or operating system).

    But in comparison an H25 (nearly 12 years old) still holds it's own against a 5d Mark 3 in everything but portability/speed/ISO. As the H25 was sold primarily to studio shooters (e.g. product/still-life/catalog) it is still an absolutely viable camera system for those users and we still (even with the cessation of guaranteed repairs) have customers using them.

    So yes, the point is very valid that this gear will simply not last nearly as long as, for example, a well made 1970s view camera. However, in comparison to most electronics or digital cameras the medium format market tends to produce pretty long usable lifespans and I think that's the more relevant comparison.

    If a client came to me and said they wanted a camera that would work the same in 35 years I'd sell him a well made film camera, a 1000 rolls of black and white film, a freezer, and a closet full of well sealed dry chemicals. I'm joking of course - I'd send him to B+H to buy it; we don't sell film :-).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    That is an interesting point. I was on the phone today to Leaf support as we are in our 3rd week of not knowing how to fix the tethering problem we have, they're finally sending me a 2nd back and body together with another computer so we can do some real troubleshooting (finding a 2nd DF and Aptus II-8 isn't so easy, not even sure there is another in the entire city). Made me think, if they don't know how to fix the problem now, in 10 years from now, 20 years from now, will anyone have a clue? Will those who were experts at the time still remember all the problems and how to troubleshoot them? Will we be able to find those experts a decade from now?

    Was just musing over that today. No doubt Yair can tell us if Valeo parts are still manufactured and available? I know Canon just killed support for the 1DII and the 1DsII not far behind. That is only 8 years of support, far less than car dealers offer and they of course cost a similar amount as a MFDB. That M6 will still be working 50 years from now but when the electronics in that M9 go due to a bad contact, a cracked chip, a rusted connection due to accumulated humidity over decades, I'd reckon you have a very expensive paperweight in 2050, probably in 2020 for that matter.

    I think that as people start to keep digital cameras for decades at a time this will all change. The chip inside a 20 year old (current) canon EF lens is still manufactured, they've only killed the support on the 20 year old lenses which have been superceded. It's the race to replace which is killing support. When we finally (please!) plateau with the upgrade madness, I think that, hope that, our equipment, albeit electronic, will be made to a standard and have the support to allow an investment measured in decades not 5 year increments.

    Life on the cutting edge is expensive and volatile isn't it? Nevermind bad for Guy's bank balance!
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  41. #91
    Senior Member David Schneider's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    I've only been using my gently used H3D2-39 and four lenses for a year and a half professionally so I'm still new to the MFD side. And I am not the student of these kind of things as some are.

    While I think the D800 might be a contributing factor to a price drop, albeit a fairly small one, I wonder if Hassie is concerned about Fuji. The Fuji XPro1 has an APS sensor (plus body) producing results while not up to Leica standards gets mentioned in the same sentence and reports are it beat the Canon 5dMK2 in many respects. High praise, indeed, for a new model camera with a small, new sensor. If Fuji took to producing a full size dslr or preferably a MFD sensor, used their experience in producing MF bodies and lenses, and could do it a price point that was significantly lower than current MFD options, and the company still made money, they could be a huge force in the market. Maybe a price drop helps keep out possible competition. But that's a lot of "if's" and "maybe's."
    Last edited by David Schneider; 20th May 2012 at 09:56.

  42. #92
    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    One of the big DSLR manufacturers will enter the MF market with something, either a system or just a back. It's not a case of if but when and I agree with Fuji being the one to watch. They seem quite serious about sensor development.

  43. #93
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    1) You may not need high ISO & Video. However many other photographers needs it, ncluding me. What we were missing is high ISO with high mega pixel. Nikon delivered it!

    2) Comparatively how many photographers need high ISO sync? None of the landscape photographers and even not all portrait photographers.

    3) You may have deep pocket and you don't care even you lost 20% value in one month. However many of use cares about our hard earned money. Did you notice that one of moderator of this forum already downsized his MFDB for "business reason" and expanding his Nikon lens collections?

    Personally I would like MFDB to survive and protect my investment in this technology. But I don't think that is happening. That's the reality, everyone likes it or not.
    I certainly dont have a deep pocket, but I made my decision and went with it.. of course I would have been happy if I had paid 20% less than I did for my hasselblad, but I am still pleased with my camera, the price drop does not take away anything from the camera for me, and I will still be using it to make pictures that make me money..
    Running a business I cannot sit around waiting for maybe a special offer to crop up, I know they come up from time to time, this is NOT the first time Hasselblad have advertised a big price drop to encourage sales.. they did it a while back with the H4D31 and the H3D31 before that... But back then I was not in the market for a new camera and now I am, May is my busiest time of year so I decided to get it in march so I had time to iron out my work flow in time for the rush.
    This price thing happens all the time, prices drop or sometimes go up.. Canon increased all its prices a while back... If you need the tools you have to buy them when you need them.
    Sh1t happens

  44. #94
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    As a few reference points: the Phase One H25 which is now coming on 12 years old is still supported in the latest OS, latest desktops/laptops, and latest Capture One software. However as of Jan 1 of this year Phase One can no longer guarantee repairs on it (as you discussed some parts are simply no longer available); when they had to announce this they offered a temporary upgrade offer for H25 owners which valued their back at FAR above it's market value.

    The original Phase One Powerphase scan back (not the later firewire model) which was based on SCSI was likewise end-of-life'd last year after 14 years. The ability to get SCSI parts (and the hardware/software to test/maintain them) forced this.

    Likewise I think it's fully expected that in 12-15 years the IQ series will no longer be able to be repaired. For most buyers this is very acceptable, especially when compared to the alternatives of dSLRs. Tethering the Nikon D2X is no longer officially supported in Nikon's latest software, likewise the Canon 1Ds II and 5D Mark 1 are no longer supported tethered to EOS utility.

    In the dSLR world it's not uncommon for a model to be considered entirely out-dated just 2-3 years after launch (e.g. Canon 5D to 5D2 was 3 years) and certainly 12-15 years for a dSLR might as well be an eon. For quick reference 9 years ago was the Canon 1Ds and 13 years ago was the <3 megapixel Nikon D1.

    Or take computers for instance. The Power Mac G5 is only 9 years old and is nearly completely useless for nearly any mainstream work (cannot run recent versions of any major software or operating system).

    But in comparison an H25 (nearly 12 years old) still holds it's own against a 5d Mark 3 in everything but portability/speed/ISO. As the H25 was sold primarily to studio shooters (e.g. product/still-life/catalog) it is still an absolutely viable camera system for those users and we still (even with the cessation of guaranteed repairs) have customers using them.

    So yes, the point is very valid that this gear will simply not last nearly as long as, for example, a well made 1970s view camera. However, in comparison to most electronics or digital cameras the medium format market tends to produce pretty long usable lifespans and I think that's the more relevant comparison.

    If a client came to me and said they wanted a camera that would work the same in 35 years I'd sell him a well made film camera, a 1000 rolls of black and white film, a freezer, and a closet full of well sealed dry chemicals. I'm joking of course - I'd send him to B+H to buy it; we don't sell film :-).
    Hi Doug,

    A manufacturer that is still supporting a twelve year old electronic product is really to be congratulated. In my experience, that is only possible if you have stockpiled components for the repairs. The situation is especially frustrating for us because our equipment doesn't really become obsolete--it only wears out. We find that the lowest risk path is to update all the designs at least every 5 years, even if the only reason is that we don't want some critical component to disappear. No, we're not big enough to tell Texas Instruments to make it for us.

    Larry

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Let's watch this for a change.

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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Just remember that with a very few exceptions, items made today are ultimately designed at some point to fail. Hmm, perhaps that's a bit extreme - they're not designed to NOT fail is probably more accurate.

    You might find this interesting:
    http://www.ecowalkthetalk.com/blog/2...-obsolescence/

    We live in a society where continuous improvement and planned obsolescence is an essential part of the economy. We're programmed to believe that the new, new thing is essential and that what we have today is only so much poor performing junk. In some cases it's even designed with a lifetime built in to it. If we're not cycling through product then there will be no companies around to innovate or sustain what we have. It's all totally understandable but annoying nonetheless.

    p.s. as an aside, it's quite funny to note that Phase One IQ backs ship with a non-functioning tethered connector right there on the body. USB3 anyone? It's still a planned future enhancement I guess
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    I hate to wade into this as a non-MF user, but I see this from another perspective.

    Nikon and Canon really seem to own most of the high-end photo market (let's talk in terms of total market dollars, rather than looking at suitability for niche applications.) They both have awesome research divisions, and are leapfrogging themselves every couple of years as part of their competition with each other. The hype around the D800 likely helps sales of all Nikon products.

    I was going to do a timeline of various DSLRs of note, then decided against it. Think through it yourself though -- remember where we were a decade ago, and look where we are now. Regardless of the actual performance of the D800, this is the first 35mm DSLR that's prompting serious discussion as to whether it's as good as medium format. Now, we can compare that with the "digital vs 35mm film" discussions a decade back and assume we've got a few more revisions before the topic is no longer interesting, but the point is there: from the perception of the public, the D800 is (or is close to) medium format quality, and at an affordable price point.

    What do you think we'll see with the next release from Canon, then the follow-up from Nikon? How many years does that represent? How many years until top-end 35mm format sensors rival cutting edge sensors used in Hasselblad cameras, at least as far as total megapixels are concerned (and assuming dynamic range continues to improve at the same rate it's been of late.)

    If I were running Hasselblad I'd be worried. Yes, there are advantages that my products offer over the D800's high resolution great-grand-children, but so what? Will a large enough percentage of the market for such high-end devices understand the differences and be willing to pay for them when Nikon's R&D finally allows them to offer megapixel parity with my top products?

    What about if Nikon/Canon eventually offer greater resolution than my products?

    You can argue that this won't happen for technical reasons, or because of factors in the market that will prevent it, but this should be on somebody's radar, especially as product development is on a 3+ year cycle. You don't want to be playing catch-up.

    Medium format camera makers had better be doing something to make themselves competitive 8-10 years from now. Pricing will be a factor, as will lens availability, but a 2020 model year Hasselblad will need to offer some significant advantages over the competing Nikon, or the company might not survive.

    I expect to see some marketing and product changes over the next few years to better position high-end camera makers for the future they see coming. Eventually we'll see the impact of lots of research dollars funded by full-frame DSLR sales taking more and more of the market where medium format gear was the best option 2 years ago.

    It's coming.
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    It's not just the resolution though, it's the 'look' of the bigger sensor, where you're point is right is how much longer people will pay that much more for what most of their clientele wouldn't be able to see if you pushed their nose into the screen. I'd also disagree with you that this is the first time this argument has happened, it happened a while back with the 5DII as well.
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Since when was MF format never been on notice. This threat is every new camera that has hit the market. Yes the Nikon is great and sure it has 36mpx and of course anything below that in MF will be questioned. Does any of this actually change what MF can actually produce. And yes I went down to a iq 140 . I don't have to worry about a crop factor anymore since I don't shoot the DF which is the only reason I went to the 160 in the first place. Since I don't shoot the DF and use a tech cam than I can drop down to the crop without affecting much. End of day and I said this for several years 40 is enough for me and I absolutely loved my P40. That has not changed and never will. Please tell me now we have a Nikon does that mean all our backs all of a sudden just became dinosaurs. No let me tell you I'm in both camps and I will support both camps because they are diffrent and they do many things for me. Everything a Pro buys is client driven or at least should be. If I had life my way I would have a M9 three lenses and go have fun. Lol
    I've read that the D800 has more DR than MF backs - that along with equal MP at the low end of MF, and much lower noise at high ISO. For those that already own MF systems, it may not mean much as you can always just trade up and stay ahead in the MP race - but - for those that are considering buying a system from scratch - I think it's going to get much harder to justify.
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    Re: D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hasselblad cameras price reduction | Photo Rumors

    this was to be expected, now lets see what " the others " will come up with.

    Greetings from Lindenberg
    Stefan
    For me it means - the gap between a 35mm DSLR (D800) and MF has become somewhat smaller. yes. Thats why I guess the price difference will shrink further (probably). I am still a belieber of digital MF being clearly and visibly ahead of 35mm dslr. But as a customer I do like the price pressure om MF from 35mm dslr becoming better and better.
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