The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think as I have talked to several people in the industry is when the IQ came out the preorders where unheard of. In that timeframe from announcement to now many orders where filled with a lot of people jumping on the IQ. I heard numbers like over a years worth of orders from the past in only 1 quarter filled during that time frame. I'm not giving out any numbers but a load where sold. All my friends bought them and a huge chunk of the members here and on LuLu as well and that's what we sort of know about.

Now today all those orders are filled all the hobbyists and Pros filled there bags. This is a very tiny market segment and we need to understand it is a very slow upgrade rate from 35mm shooters to MF. Today it simply has slowed down as many have them now and many sales are on used, demos and private sellers. It's not like everyone's bailing it's just that we grew a lot during that time, not counting Hassy and Leaf sales during that period plus S2 and Pentax as well this all happened over about a years period sale for MF a huge. What we have today and looks funny as it seems a lot people outgrow things and want to try something else, it's a natural attrition cycle. Now with the Nikon coming out it also did put those fence sitters on hold no question. But to sit here and say its all Nikon is misleading. We had huge sales numbers in MF the last year or so and the growth rate of new buyers has slowed. What's Phase do the smart thing come out with a Leaf back for less money. Now will it generate more sales hard to say, the market is a little full right now and Hassy has taken there discounts like they have before in the past to move stock. What we really have here is we filled the bubble and some air is getting out but not much going back in the MF market. The S2 and Pentax never killed the MF back companies and Nikon won't either. It does make people think twice sure but there are still MF sales going on in pretty decent numbers just not nearly as good as it was last year. Again adjustment bureau strikes again. I been in the MF world for awhile now and it simply has cycles that it goes through. This is normal and yes the Nikon does give cause for pause and a lot of us added the system to our kits. Key word here added not replaced although some folks have replaced but again that's attrition too . People will and do fall out of the format. I just can't sit here and buy this Nikon killed MF stuff. I own the damn thing it's great but it ain't MF and MF is not Nikon. To me these are mostly added tools and MF shooters are not upgrading right now until they fill there kits with the Nikons. Does MF need to address pricing and such , of course it does it always did.

At least this is how I'm viewing it all.
 

kit laughlin

Subscriber Member
@ Marc:

perfect.

@ Guy: this is a cyclic phenomenon, and you have nailed it really accurately, IMHO. I have gone from FF DSLRs to APS-C/µ4/3rds and primes for exactly the same reasons—plus most of my work ends up in brochure images or on the web. Carrying one small body and four tiny lenses (and reflectors/strobes if necessary) instead of a huge Pelican roller is liberation for me.

Do I prefer the look of MF—of course! Can I justify it/do I want to carry it? No!
 

gazwas

Active member
They didn't cut prices by 22.9% across the board, they cut prices by "up to" 22.9%.

The current entry point for Hasselblad, the H4D-31, costs $12,000 for body-and-back after its price reduction of $1000, or still four times as much as a D800. Price the various lenses on top of that to understand the comparative system cost. Beats me whether they are competing for the same buyers. But if they are, how much difference is a marginal adjustment like this going to make?
A price reduction, regardless of how small is still a reduction and phsycologically thats the only message HB need to make to boost sales IMO.

Why else, every January to people flock to the shops to buy up all the unwanted junk left behind on the rails..........
 

Chris Giles

New member
Here's a couple of things that happened this week for me that put me off medium format.

The rubber eyecup on my H1 became torn, god knows how that happened but it did. I went looking for a replacement and it's £32 + 20% VAT (£6.40) + Delivery £10.

£48.40 or in USD $75 for a piece of rubber.

Further, I'm looking to take the H1 to Iceland to shoot landscapes and with anything I'm looking to shoot low ISO and to get a lot of detail in the image. The tilt shift adaptor for the H1 not only increases the focal length of my lenses but also costs more than a D800E with the smaller sensor of the D800E giving me a more increased plane of field anyway.

I still like and prefer to use film backs and the colour rendition of the MF backs but if I'm thinking this then most others will be too. It's what's stopping me moving to the H3D39... or why it's taking me so long to do so.
 
Last edited:

henrkfoto

New member
I think all this "death-of -MF-talk" will be good for the used prices of MF.
I follow the MF back prices on Ebay closely, and there has been a large lowering
of these salesprices the last weeks. Good for all of us!!
An IQ180 now sells for less than 25.000$ allmost new.
The 22mp backs can be bought for 3-6.000$.

Of course this is bad news for the investments allready done...
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
I think all this "death-of -MF-talk" will be good for the used prices of MF.
I follow the MF back prices on Ebay closely, and there has been a large lowering
of these salesprices the last weeks. Good for all of us!!
An IQ180 now sells for less than 25.000$ allmost new.***
The 22mp backs can be bought for 3-6.000$.

Of course this is bad news for the investments allready done...
Well, it must be said that a lot of people probably don't look at the purchase of a MFDB as a financial investment.

And for those that do look at their purchases as such?

I can't see how the reduction in cost price of an identical asset, after you've purchased one, can in any material way impact the ROI calculations that you would have made when you made your purchase.

Ok, I guess that clutching at straws, one possible way is that the reduction in price leads to a significant increase in the number of people out there that you have to compete for work with, hence forcing you to reduce your expected returns, but that's about it.


/edit -
***Just to clarify this. That back only had 1 months warranty left on it. 3 people bid over $24,000 for it. Doesn't seem totally unreasonable to me.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I just received an email from Hasselblad announcing their new pricing.
Price Reduction

Mr.Gale

How many 80mm lenses Hasselblad offer currently?

The price of the lowest digital back with the 80mm and the higher priced ones differ by $1,000 (with or without the lens prices)?

Is the $2,000 80mm better than the $1,000 80mm? :confused:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
@ Henrkphoto: "Bad news for investments already done", is a relative and often misused term. Camera gear is an investment IF you make money from it, just like any other "investment". Otherwise it is an expense that will lose market value IF and WHEN you sell it ... a fact that is as sure as Death and Taxes ... (speaking of taxes, that is another mitigating financial factor for those who make money from their gear).

What is interesting is the whole culture of constantly jumping from one lilly pad to the next that was spurred on by the digital revolution ... and perpetuated by techo-hounds that constantly tout the need for more of this or that, whether you actually need this or that. The psychology is very interesting to me ... where one is fixated on linking the next best thing to some personal status, an odd "Jack of all trades" mentality, and/or a fear of falling behind ... while not really grasping why they feel compelled to keep sinking money into something beyond their needs or capability.

While I'm not much for Landscape work, the two Get Dpi Landscape artist I who's work I enjoy most, seem perfectly content with gear many would consider antiques in the swirling world of MFD land. Neither seem compelled to "go beyond" even though they could.

In short, when the MFD gear got to a particular level of IQ ... there were some who stopped and spent their energy and time mastering what they have ... and their work shows it IMO.

The gear they use could depreciate to zero market value and it would be irrelevant to them as artists.

-Marc
 

Lax Jought

New member
But why only 22.9%. It will be a matter of time before Canon and Sony follows with their high MP camera, will Hasselblad then bring it down further to 50% ?
What I don't really understand is, the D800 and other potential high megapixel DSLRs are still only 35mm sensors aren't they?

Isn't it the quality of images from the much larger medium format sized sensors that make that difference?

Many mirrorless/compact cameras with 4/3 sensors or smaller, produce equivalent megapixel images but they still don't really compare to full frame 35mm DSLRs, don't they?
 

Chris Giles

New member
What I don't really understand is, the D800 and other potential high megapixel DSLRs are still only 35mm sensors aren't they?

Isn't it the quality of images from the much larger medium format sized sensors that make that difference?

Many mirrorless/compact cameras with 4/3 sensors or smaller, produce equivalent megapixel images but they still don't really compare to full frame 35mm DSLRs, don't they?
Well, you know I used to think that but technology is steaming ahead in the area of CMOS. It's not perfect but the gap is closing.

You'll never get the MF look though, like a H1 2.2 portrait at 2.2 will never be the same as a D800 at 1.6 - The drop off will be similar yes but the area of focus will still be 2.2

i.e. I shot a wedding yesterday and did some portraits at 2.2 and then on the 5D3 1.6 - The 2.2 shots had both couples in focus, the 5D3 only had one. (Bad positioning on my part - but the same positioning for both shots).
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc

the problem is only I live inside this castle and rely on my landlords being healthy. I really care for the future of this special medium , but sometimes it seems I´m the only one who has realized the south wing of the castle is already burning ! And everytime I shout fire the other inhabitants just say : calm down - who cares......... ???

The secret weapons, yes we had a sad history on these in Germany, maybe this is the reason why I´don´t believe in these anymore.

Regards
Stefan
Stefan, you seem to contradict yourself.

You call for more MFD innovation, then discount the notion of "Secret Weapon" while oddly linking it to a historical political analogy.

I also don't see you as pointing out that the "West Wing is Burning", but more like someone screaming "FIRE" in the MFD theater ... with predictable results :ROTFL:

Then lobbing Molotov Cocktail headlines into the theater just to assure a rush to the door by the insecure trying to avoid death. :eek: This is no help what-so-ever for the "Medium you really care for". :thumbdown:

IMO, the answer to 35mm becoming more MFD like, isn't to make MFD more 35mm like. That is a losing strategy. MFD has to concentrate on being more MF like, not less.

(Example: When Leica innovated the S2 it wasn't to make a Medium format camera ... it was to make a 35mm like camera with some aesthetic attributes of medium format ... and to carry a whole new set of Leica lenses which is what they are really famous for. If Leica had chosen to make an R-10 it would have sold to Leica lovers, including me ... but the 35mm pricing paradigm would have limited the potential, and really have been impacted by the D800 type offerings ... instead they swam upstream by themselves with a unique camera format, at a price that requires fewer sales than 35mm would have dictated ... and aimed it at a small percentage of buyers ... plus, unlike MFD companies, their flagship profit machine is the M ... not a stripped down, crippled version of the S2).

I think cameras like the Hy6 was the right direction, but it didn't follow the prevailing "compete with 35mm DSLRs marketing mentality" that MFD adopted to make more sales. Very short term thinking which was bound to be truncated by the rate of 35mm innovation sooner than later ... as it turns out it was "sooner".

In contrast ... imagine a Hy6 type camera, with a highly integrated 56 X 56 sensor back, user selected crop to square, landscape or portrait (a feature on the old square chip Kodak ProBack BTW) A series of Zeiss and Schneider optics, improved AF, or at least an innovation like Hasselblad's True Focus. Everything dedicated to IQ without a bunch of do-dads to distract from that goal. Then every owner treated like a super-star photographer with service and attention second to none. How would THAT stack up against a D800 IF one had the need and/or desire for an indisputable "LOT MORE" than good enough?

Fact is IF a photographer need only produce for web and smaller applications, or "good enough is good enough", they haven't needed MFD for years now. There are those who DO grasp the differences that MFD makes, and those differences need to be both magnified with innovation ... and especially they need to be marketed as THE point of difference ... as someone already mentioned, perception is everything, and the MFD companies have done a poor job of competitively controlling perceptions.

-Marc
 

dqv

New member
Yes MF is still MF :) in technichal output quality the 35mm is almost as good as the file output what we are used of in MF.

But there are two things.

1. the feel of MF in portret shootings you can never achieve with 35mm. i know you guys are all landscape guys, so maybe this is different for you guys. but for me i can't get the organic look of MF in 35mm without distortion and clarity.

2. everybody is super focused on the dynamic range and sharpness of the files.
which are good but relative good (again maybe for you landscape guys its perfect).
the fullness in the files are in the shadows, there is not so much of a stretch in the highlights. i don't know what it is but. for portrait and fashion retouching the files aren't holding up in photoshop.
the highlights seems to be super linear or something (d3x had more of a shoulder in the files). a small curves moves and you will see what i mean. skin doesn't hold up in curves moves, hair detail looks funky and plastic because of the harsh highlights and sharpness.

So my conclusion :) d800 is a fine camera but not for fashion and portrait :)
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Marc

do you really think it will help, if you don´t speak about it ? :confused:

OK you state you don´t care about the price - well....
you stated earlier you don´t care about the better DR or you just deny it exists because CCD´s have this Miracle thing - hmmm
you state it does not matter to have better handling and easier usage....???

and then you say I shall imagine what it could be if a perfect MF would exist that would treat the customers like kings.....and all of the MF gear functions perfectly out of the box......

Hey - who is unrealistic here ? Maybe most of the other people take interest in these points ?

I know the best image quality today is achieved with 60 or 80 Mpix backs or Multishot - at a cost. Nobody discusses this. But how many percent of the market is this ? Right now the "low end" has eaten most of the volume market, what is left for a MF Maker, can they survive this ? How can future R&D be paid facing shrinking turnarounds ? Who will devellop such a nice large chip for those some thousand people worldwide that think like you ? Of course you can use your back and be happy ever after. In ten years the tech support will stop and maybe then you will have retired and do not care anymore. but what about the people who want or need to buy something in 2-3 years or later, then facing maybe 40-60 Mpix 35mm EVILs at a similar pricepoint(3000$) and MF is still using CCD´s, Mirrors/no Life view and low ISO ?

I want to make a living with future customers who will stay in this segment and know why they invest. But at the current point I don´t see this happening.

And this gives me big headaches.

Regards
Stefan
 

Egor

Member
I just tested D800 against IQ180 in studio shot of some shoes for a billboard prints going up in Europe and Japan.
Sorry, but the Nikon D800 (testing the D800e later) was not ready for primetime. It delivered on resolution, but not sharpness, IQ, or color; and it's LV and software controls were a joke (in studio work) compared to C1 or even Canon.
I am not a professional evaluator, just a successful product shooter with two studios and a couple decades experience, but the D800 promise is stronger than its delivery as of yet.
This doesn't mean I don't want MFD prices to come down....a lot. I treat them like cars, anything more than $30k for a system and it better give happy ending :)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc

do you really think it will help, if you don´t speak about it ? :confused:

OK you state you don´t care about the price - well....
you stated earlier you don´t care about the better DR or you just deny it exists because CCD´s have this Miracle thing - hmmm
you state it does not matter to have better handling and easier usage....???

and then you say I shall imagine what it could be if a perfect MF would exist that would treat the customers like kings.....and all of the MF gear functions perfectly out of the box......

Hey - who is unrealistic here ? Maybe most of the other people take interest in these points ?

I know the best image quality today is achieved with 60 or 80 Mpix backs or Multishot - at a cost. Nobody discusses this. But how many percent of the market is this ? Right now the "low end" has eaten most of the volume market, what is left for a MF Maker, can they survive this ? How can future R&D be paid facing shrinking turnarounds ? Who will devellop such a nice large chip for those some thousand people worldwide that think like you ? Of course you can use your back and be happy ever after. In ten years the tech support will stop and maybe then you will have retired and do not care anymore. but what about the people who want or need to buy something in 2-3 years or later, then facing maybe 40-60 Mpix 35mm EVILs at a similar pricepoint(3000$) and MF is still using CCD´s, Mirrors/no Life view and low ISO ?

I want to make a living with future customers who will stay in this segment and know why they invest. But at the current point I don´t see this happening.

And this gives me big headaches.

Regards
Stefan
I think you are confusing me with someone else ... I never said I don't care about price ... I said if I already have the gear and it's doing the job, I don't need to buy something else and take a big loss on what I already have. If I could get a H4D/60 for 1/2 price when I first bought it ... of course ... Duh, who wouldn't like that?

Also NEVER said anything about perfection out of the box, so out of context exaggerating doesn't help with the discussion. I said equal opportunity excellent service with items this expensive. To date, this is exactly what I've experienced with the Leica S2, which was NOT perfect out of the box ... however, I was taken care of instantly, with no bull crap, and got an apology for the inconvenience.

Who says MFD has to be a volume market? Either there is enough market for top level IQ or there isn't. If not, then nature will take its course. Turning MFD into a 35mm DSLR is a formula for extinction for sure ... 35mm won't sit still, of that I am certain.

Currently, there is nothing that I do not served by what I have ... I use MFD in studio mostly (like where it all started), LCD is okay for quick checks, but most work is shot to a 30" screen and I can use live view video feed to adjust compositions, and Phocus to overlay a layout to match space. The tool fits the job.

I've worked on numerous paying jobs with Phase One tools and the same hold true there.

Perdicting 10 years out is a fool's errand. 10 years ago most everything was shot on film. 10 years from now, the 35mm DSLR will probably be extinct ... repalaced by some new technology we can even dream of right now. Maybe the new 100 meg Apple iPhoto IV the size of a thumb-drive ... :ROTFL:

-Marc
 
Last edited:

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
The HB prices dropped like this before the last Photokina (if I remember correctly) . Don t the MF businesses (HB&Phase) run off a model of planned obsolescence and creating demand for a constant refresh cycle. The 40MP backs superseded by the 60MP and now the 80MP ....with customer friendly trade ins .

What has changed is the market for used MF equipment ...the D800 seems like a viable alternative to a semi pro or advanced amateur that wants to move up in IQ . That HB 39MP body and two lenses looks like quite a deal for an emerging pro on a budget . If he is successful he keeps the glass and trades the back in ...looks like a nice model and one the dealers should support .

Trade Up cycles every two years drain the funds of the loyal followers pretty quickly at the prices of an IQ180 . Don t believe this can be continued long term.

The D800 may have taken just enough out of the used prices to really hurt the MF market ..but HB dropped there prices to clear inventory before Photokina and create sales in a market frozen by an assumption that “big and better things “ will be coming. They will but they will be hard to get and cost a small fortune . Don t see any MF vendors really trying to take cost out of their systems .

My view is that they do not have a sustainable business model at this point ...the concept of produce the best and charge very high prices is hard to pull off in a small market . Leica is the exception not the rule (and the value of the lenses really holds up) . Photokina will tell us a lot .
 

JorisV

New member
The HB prices dropped like this before the last Photokina (if I remember correctly) . Don t the MF businesses (HB&Phase) run off a model of planned obsolescence and creating demand for a constant refresh cycle. The 40MP backs superseded by the 60MP and now the 80MP ....with customer friendly trade ins .

What has changed is the market for used MF equipment ...the D800 seems like a viable alternative to a semi pro or advanced amateur that wants to move up in IQ . That HB 39MP body and two lenses looks like quite a deal for an emerging pro on a budget . If he is successful he keeps the glass and trades the back in ...looks like a nice model and one the dealers should support .

Trade Up cycles every two years drain the funds of the loyal followers pretty quickly at the prices of an IQ180 . Don t believe this can be continued long term.

The D800 may have taken just enough out of the used prices to really hurt the MF market ..but HB dropped there prices to clear inventory before Photokina and create sales in a market frozen by an assumption that “big and better things “ will be coming. They will but they will be hard to get and cost a small fortune . Don t see any MF vendors really trying to take cost out of their systems .

My view is that they do not have a sustainable business model at this point ...the concept of produce the best and charge very high prices is hard to pull off in a small market . Leica is the exception not the rule (and the value of the lenses really holds up) . Photokina will tell us a lot .
I couldn't agree more. I see nothing special here. Hasselblad has done similar discounts in the past and will do them again in the future. And I am also of the opinion that neither Hasselblad nor Phase One has a long term sustainable business model. Phase One may have had the best year ever last year. I would be surprised if they can pull that off once more in a market that has changed a/o due to the D800. Most of the Phase One/Leaf upgrades or even cross-grades cost a minimum of $10-15K and that in a market where a D800 can be had for $3K... Pure madness... You cannot expect the same very small group of people to invest the same sums of money every 2 or 3 years, completely not realistic in my opinion.

BTW, I was at Calumet last week, I heard somebody say that the time on the waiting list for a D800 is now 8 months... Is that indeed true?
 

Chris Giles

New member
I liken it to music.

We had Mono, Stereo, 4 channel, 4.1, 5 Channel, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, DTS, Dolby etc.
People used to buy seperate sound cards for their machines now nearly every board has one built into it. But now we don't seem to of had much in the way of innovation because it's good enough and there's no demoand for better.

With the new Intel chips they have graphics built in. How long before they become fast and powerful enough to satisfy the need of those who currently use PCI cards. Why use Nvidia if Intel supply it on chip.

Currently my machine is fast enough to the point CS6 doesn't run any faster because it can't really or at least it could but with severely diminishing returns of investment.

Whatever the product there is only so much demand for certain things at any given quality and price point. I don't feel the need to improve on my brand of coffee and my toilet paper feels fine too.

The digital revolution pulled a load of people from film. Now Kodak has hit the toilet.
My 5D3 has more dynamic range than my P25 - But it's soft as mud compared due to the AA filter and lacks the MF format look. But for most the 5D3 is good enough.

Slowly people are being leeched from the medium format much the same as with film. It's a shame really. I still say that Hasselblad should of researched CMOS tech (no doubt there's reasons they didn't). Get a fat sensor from Sony stick it in. ISO6400 yes please.

I'm sure if Hasselblad relaunched the 22mp back and body for 3k ($4500) they'd sell loads. People still care about image quality.
 
Top