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D800 impact - Hasselblad cuts prices 22,9 %

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Exactly Dans interior shots are stunning. This is exactly why I'm keeping my tech cam. I'm not stupid I know what the best image quality is and I'm holding on to it. I got both that makes me a freaking genius . LOL

I'm joking of course. But seriously there is just something about MF that I'm not willing to give up and I really don't want too. I worked to hard to get here.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Lots of speculation and assumptions going on ... fueled by unsubstantiated "facts".

This company or that company "not doing so well" ... but nothing to back it up but anecdotal speculation and hearsay. Aren't these MFD companies privately held? Where are the facts and figures to provide a shred of proof?

I look at Hasselblad and less than a year ago, a savvy Swiss/German equity firm with a hi-tech portfolio takes over 100% of Hasselblad. They retain the former Asian distribution owners on the board, and that company retains full distribution in Asia ... a huge emerging market for brands with historical equity ... especially storied European brands.

Hasselblad is not a big company, therefore it has to focus resources. To my mind, it is conceivable that the new owners served to focus those efforts better than in past ... and then backed it with an infusion of capital to make it happen. Give it some time to bear fruit.

Meanwhile it is business as usual ... anyone that has been with Hasselblad products as long as I have has seen this before regardless of competitive situations or not. Who remembers the deal including the then new $7,500 Zeiss 40/4 CFE IF? I do, I got one. Big lens discounts have been offered like clock work. I also got the $7.600 HCD/35-90 for a fraction of retail ... used it, then sold it at a relatively good price but still at a nice profit. Win-Win for buyer and seller. I also sold my H4D/40 for what seemed like a shockingly low price at the time ... didn't lose one thin dime on it due to shrewd buying going in, tax write-offs and having taken advantage of an accompanying lens deal. Impatience is what makes this stuff more expensive than it need be.

>>> RANT ALERT <<<

Why MFD in the face of almost as good? IMO, because MFD is more than a little better. Not an elitists POV, but one based on specific application needs both of my picky as hell clients, and more importantly my own never satisfied standards. Good enough may be the mantra of others, it will NEVER be mine. I'll go to the grave whispering that I wished I had done better ... worked harder, created better ideas, done more with lighting, made more worthy images, did the best I could to do ... more, better, the best possible that I could manage ... even IF it involved personal sacrifice.

I always think I am average, and I DESPISE average. I think the word "consensus" is a weasel word that weakly excuses personal compromise. What is in my head is always leagues ahead of what I seem able to do ... that pisses me off no end, and is the fuel that drives forward movement.

A dear friend recently asked me why I can't seem to take a sincere compliment on my work and knowledge? I responded that I appreciated it as much as anyone else, but never think about it much. He asked why that was, didn't I think that I deserve it? I thought about it for a minute and realized why that was. I spent my whole life in the company of like kinds, from special art education as a kid, onto art school, as a painter, designer, then art director and creative director in advertising. Being really good was the price of entry, being "good enough" got you the office next to the exit ... next step being out the door.

Positioning a tool as an exact fit for the best possible result given the application is fine ... horses for courses ... however positioning it as "good enough" is a slippery path, metaphorically it's the office next to the exit IMO.

>>> END RANT <<<<

Marc
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
..... I'm not stupid I know what the best image quality is and I'm holding on to it. I got both that makes me a freaking genius . LOL

I'm joking of course. But seriously there is just something about MF that I'm not willing to give up and I really don't want too. I worked to hard to get here.
This is what a few of my friends would call a "true joke." I think it's pretty damned smart and great professionally if you have the best of both worlds: A flagship DSLR and a MFDB make for a perfect complement.

Common sense to me, but otherwise Guy, you're freaking genius! :D
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Lol

I keep telling my wife that she just laughs. I get your just a camera slut. LOL

See even she knows it. Now I'm after a backup, freaking never ending battle.
 
...Just can't beat the Rodies and Schneiders no matter what back you have...
This is a large part of what it comes down too. Same with Leica/Hassie/Mamiya's SK Lenses.

The target segment for Canon/Nikon seems most at risk to me. As people switch in to mirrorless or give up "photography" completely and stick with a phone and instigram. According to Erwin Puts "In Germany in 2011 the mirror-less system cameras grew with more than 60% while the reflex market hardly grew at all."
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
A lot of people just give up and pick another hobby. I gave up golf for like 3 years now I'm back playing more but I was a weekend warrior. Happens to everyone it's a hobby which gives you a choice.

New hobby dirt bike riding with my son. I'm nuts but we are leaving now. Lol
 
...there is just something about MF that I'm not willing to give up...
>Sorry Guy to keep quoting you, but I want to add some colour<

I really feel the D800/MF argument is hyperbole because most people will never choose to own a Leica, or the D800 or Hassie and probably have never heard of Mamiya/Phase One. As far back as I can remember anyway, that's the way things have always been. Leica is the only true SF alternative [to MF] because of the glass. The segment for this gear is small and Hassie are losing out to Phase/Leaf not to Nikon, because Hassie's horrible ego is in the way of their progress. Closed systems, everyone's dream, etc. etc. From childhood I was enamoured with Hassie, but their attitude turned me off, Mamiya were there with something special.

fwiw, here's a name to end the SF/MF [D800] debate. Nick Brandt.
 

lmeiners

New member
I had an interesting experience a few weeks ago. Decided it was time to enter the digital MF world and wondered what some my old equipment would fetch. Got it out and checked it. The 35 year old Master Technica kit--still perfect. The coupled ranger finder worked good, the bellows is in fine shape, the shutters all worked perfectly. Good to go. The electronic stuff--not doing so well. Some DOA, ready for the trash can. I wonder how much of this gear we're having these sometimes heated discussions about will be in the landfill 20 years from now. My day job is electronics manufacturer. We try to support the the equipment we sell as long as we can (it's all very expensive) but after about 8 years we usually have to give up. Components become obsolete and disappear from the market. Some of the older IC's can't even be manufactured on the newer fab lines. The choice it to either buy up a lifetime supply of components for supporting the legacy products or let them go. We can't afford the former, from what I see everyone else but the military is in the same boat. Reading this forum has reminded me that camera gear is no different. These realities make it difficult for someone who isn't making a living off their camera equipment to lay out upwards of $30K for a kit knowing that support may go away in 10 years.

I found out the Linhof isn't worth much so I'll probably keep it. It's fun to use sometimes and it still works great.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I had an interesting experience a few weeks ago. Decided it was time to enter the digital MF world and wondered what some my old equipment would fetch. Got it out and checked it. The 35 year old Master Technica kit--still perfect. The coupled ranger finder worked good, the bellows is in fine shape, the shutters all worked perfectly. Good to go. The electronic stuff--not doing so well. Some DOA, ready for the trash can. I wonder how much of this gear we're having these sometimes heated discussions about will be in the landfill 20 years from now. My day job is electronics manufacturer. We try to support the the equipment we sell as long as we can (it's all very expensive) but after about 8 years we usually have to give up. Components become obsolete and disappear from the market. Some of the older IC's can't even be manufactured on the newer fab lines. The choice it to either buy up a lifetime supply of components for supporting the legacy products or let them go. We can't afford the former, from what I see everyone else but the military is in the same boat. Reading this forum has reminded me that camera gear is no different. These realities make it difficult for someone who isn't making a living off their camera equipment to lay out upwards of $30K for a kit knowing that support may go away in 10 years.

I found out the Linhof isn't worth much so I'll probably keep it. It's fun to use sometimes and it still works great.
As a few reference points: the Phase One H25 which is now coming on 12 years old is still supported in the latest OS, latest desktops/laptops, and latest Capture One software. However as of Jan 1 of this year Phase One can no longer guarantee repairs on it (as you discussed some parts are simply no longer available); when they had to announce this they offered a temporary upgrade offer for H25 owners which valued their back at FAR above it's market value.

The original Phase One Powerphase scan back (not the later firewire model) which was based on SCSI was likewise end-of-life'd last year after 14 years. The ability to get SCSI parts (and the hardware/software to test/maintain them) forced this.

Likewise I think it's fully expected that in 12-15 years the IQ series will no longer be able to be repaired. For most buyers this is very acceptable, especially when compared to the alternatives of dSLRs. Tethering the Nikon D2X is no longer officially supported in Nikon's latest software, likewise the Canon 1Ds II and 5D Mark 1 are no longer supported tethered to EOS utility.

In the dSLR world it's not uncommon for a model to be considered entirely out-dated just 2-3 years after launch (e.g. Canon 5D to 5D2 was 3 years) and certainly 12-15 years for a dSLR might as well be an eon. For quick reference 9 years ago was the Canon 1Ds and 13 years ago was the <3 megapixel Nikon D1.

Or take computers for instance. The Power Mac G5 is only 9 years old and is nearly completely useless for nearly any mainstream work (cannot run recent versions of any major software or operating system).

But in comparison an H25 (nearly 12 years old) still holds it's own against a 5d Mark 3 in everything but portability/speed/ISO. As the H25 was sold primarily to studio shooters (e.g. product/still-life/catalog) it is still an absolutely viable camera system for those users and we still (even with the cessation of guaranteed repairs) have customers using them.

So yes, the point is very valid that this gear will simply not last nearly as long as, for example, a well made 1970s view camera. However, in comparison to most electronics or digital cameras the medium format market tends to produce pretty long usable lifespans and I think that's the more relevant comparison.

If a client came to me and said they wanted a camera that would work the same in 35 years I'd sell him a well made film camera, a 1000 rolls of black and white film, a freezer, and a closet full of well sealed dry chemicals. I'm joking of course - I'd send him to B+H to buy it; we don't sell film :).
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
That is an interesting point. I was on the phone today to Leaf support as we are in our 3rd week of not knowing how to fix the tethering problem we have, they're finally sending me a 2nd back and body together with another computer so we can do some real troubleshooting (finding a 2nd DF and Aptus II-8 isn't so easy, not even sure there is another in the entire city). Made me think, if they don't know how to fix the problem now, in 10 years from now, 20 years from now, will anyone have a clue? Will those who were experts at the time still remember all the problems and how to troubleshoot them? Will we be able to find those experts a decade from now?

Was just musing over that today. No doubt Yair can tell us if Valeo parts are still manufactured and available? I know Canon just killed support for the 1DII and the 1DsII not far behind. That is only 8 years of support, far less than car dealers offer and they of course cost a similar amount as a MFDB. That M6 will still be working 50 years from now but when the electronics in that M9 go due to a bad contact, a cracked chip, a rusted connection due to accumulated humidity over decades, I'd reckon you have a very expensive paperweight in 2050, probably in 2020 for that matter.

I think that as people start to keep digital cameras for decades at a time this will all change. The chip inside a 20 year old (current) canon EF lens is still manufactured, they've only killed the support on the 20 year old lenses which have been superceded. It's the race to replace which is killing support. When we finally (please!) plateau with the upgrade madness, I think that, hope that, our equipment, albeit electronic, will be made to a standard and have the support to allow an investment measured in decades not 5 year increments.

Life on the cutting edge is expensive and volatile isn't it? Nevermind bad for Guy's bank balance! :ROTFL:
 

David Schneider

New member
I've only been using my gently used H3D2-39 and four lenses for a year and a half professionally so I'm still new to the MFD side. And I am not the student of these kind of things as some are.

While I think the D800 might be a contributing factor to a price drop, albeit a fairly small one, I wonder if Hassie is concerned about Fuji. The Fuji XPro1 has an APS sensor (plus body) producing results while not up to Leica standards gets mentioned in the same sentence and reports are it beat the Canon 5dMK2 in many respects. High praise, indeed, for a new model camera with a small, new sensor. If Fuji took to producing a full size dslr or preferably a MFD sensor, used their experience in producing MF bodies and lenses, and could do it a price point that was significantly lower than current MFD options, and the company still made money, they could be a huge force in the market. Maybe a price drop helps keep out possible competition. But that's a lot of "if's" and "maybe's."
 
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Chris Giles

New member
One of the big DSLR manufacturers will enter the MF market with something, either a system or just a back. It's not a case of if but when and I agree with Fuji being the one to watch. They seem quite serious about sensor development.
 

Nathan W. Lediard

New member
1) You may not need high ISO & Video. However many other photographers needs it, ncluding me. What we were missing is high ISO with high mega pixel. Nikon delivered it!

2) Comparatively how many photographers need high ISO sync? None of the landscape photographers and even not all portrait photographers.

3) You may have deep pocket and you don't care even you lost 20% value in one month. However many of use cares about our hard earned money. Did you notice that one of moderator of this forum already downsized his MFDB for "business reason" and expanding his Nikon lens collections?

Personally I would like MFDB to survive and protect my investment in this technology. But I don't think that is happening. That's the reality, everyone likes it or not.
I certainly dont have a deep pocket, but I made my decision and went with it.. of course I would have been happy if I had paid 20% less than I did for my hasselblad, but I am still pleased with my camera, the price drop does not take away anything from the camera for me, and I will still be using it to make pictures that make me money..
Running a business I cannot sit around waiting for maybe a special offer to crop up, I know they come up from time to time, this is NOT the first time Hasselblad have advertised a big price drop to encourage sales.. they did it a while back with the H4D31 and the H3D31 before that... But back then I was not in the market for a new camera and now I am, May is my busiest time of year so I decided to get it in march so I had time to iron out my work flow in time for the rush.
This price thing happens all the time, prices drop or sometimes go up.. Canon increased all its prices a while back... If you need the tools you have to buy them when you need them.
Sh1t happens :)
 

lmeiners

New member
As a few reference points: the Phase One H25 which is now coming on 12 years old is still supported in the latest OS, latest desktops/laptops, and latest Capture One software. However as of Jan 1 of this year Phase One can no longer guarantee repairs on it (as you discussed some parts are simply no longer available); when they had to announce this they offered a temporary upgrade offer for H25 owners which valued their back at FAR above it's market value.

The original Phase One Powerphase scan back (not the later firewire model) which was based on SCSI was likewise end-of-life'd last year after 14 years. The ability to get SCSI parts (and the hardware/software to test/maintain them) forced this.

Likewise I think it's fully expected that in 12-15 years the IQ series will no longer be able to be repaired. For most buyers this is very acceptable, especially when compared to the alternatives of dSLRs. Tethering the Nikon D2X is no longer officially supported in Nikon's latest software, likewise the Canon 1Ds II and 5D Mark 1 are no longer supported tethered to EOS utility.

In the dSLR world it's not uncommon for a model to be considered entirely out-dated just 2-3 years after launch (e.g. Canon 5D to 5D2 was 3 years) and certainly 12-15 years for a dSLR might as well be an eon. For quick reference 9 years ago was the Canon 1Ds and 13 years ago was the <3 megapixel Nikon D1.

Or take computers for instance. The Power Mac G5 is only 9 years old and is nearly completely useless for nearly any mainstream work (cannot run recent versions of any major software or operating system).

But in comparison an H25 (nearly 12 years old) still holds it's own against a 5d Mark 3 in everything but portability/speed/ISO. As the H25 was sold primarily to studio shooters (e.g. product/still-life/catalog) it is still an absolutely viable camera system for those users and we still (even with the cessation of guaranteed repairs) have customers using them.

So yes, the point is very valid that this gear will simply not last nearly as long as, for example, a well made 1970s view camera. However, in comparison to most electronics or digital cameras the medium format market tends to produce pretty long usable lifespans and I think that's the more relevant comparison.

If a client came to me and said they wanted a camera that would work the same in 35 years I'd sell him a well made film camera, a 1000 rolls of black and white film, a freezer, and a closet full of well sealed dry chemicals. I'm joking of course - I'd send him to B+H to buy it; we don't sell film :).
Hi Doug,

A manufacturer that is still supporting a twelve year old electronic product is really to be congratulated. In my experience, that is only possible if you have stockpiled components for the repairs. The situation is especially frustrating for us because our equipment doesn't really become obsolete--it only wears out. We find that the lowest risk path is to update all the designs at least every 5 years, even if the only reason is that we don't want some critical component to disappear. No, we're not big enough to tell Texas Instruments to make it for us.

Larry
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Just remember that with a very few exceptions, items made today are ultimately designed at some point to fail. Hmm, perhaps that's a bit extreme - they're not designed to NOT fail is probably more accurate.

You might find this interesting:
http://www.ecowalkthetalk.com/blog/2011/08/26/the-light-bulb-conspiracy-the-story-of-planned-obsolescence/

We live in a society where continuous improvement and planned obsolescence is an essential part of the economy. We're programmed to believe that the new, new thing is essential and that what we have today is only so much poor performing junk. In some cases it's even designed with a lifetime built in to it. If we're not cycling through product then there will be no companies around to innovate or sustain what we have. It's all totally understandable but annoying nonetheless.

p.s. as an aside, it's quite funny to note that Phase One IQ backs ship with a non-functioning tethered connector right there on the body. USB3 anyone? It's still a planned future enhancement I guess :D
 
I hate to wade into this as a non-MF user, but I see this from another perspective.

Nikon and Canon really seem to own most of the high-end photo market (let's talk in terms of total market dollars, rather than looking at suitability for niche applications.) They both have awesome research divisions, and are leapfrogging themselves every couple of years as part of their competition with each other. The hype around the D800 likely helps sales of all Nikon products.

I was going to do a timeline of various DSLRs of note, then decided against it. Think through it yourself though -- remember where we were a decade ago, and look where we are now. Regardless of the actual performance of the D800, this is the first 35mm DSLR that's prompting serious discussion as to whether it's as good as medium format. Now, we can compare that with the "digital vs 35mm film" discussions a decade back and assume we've got a few more revisions before the topic is no longer interesting, but the point is there: from the perception of the public, the D800 is (or is close to) medium format quality, and at an affordable price point.

What do you think we'll see with the next release from Canon, then the follow-up from Nikon? How many years does that represent? How many years until top-end 35mm format sensors rival cutting edge sensors used in Hasselblad cameras, at least as far as total megapixels are concerned (and assuming dynamic range continues to improve at the same rate it's been of late.)

If I were running Hasselblad I'd be worried. Yes, there are advantages that my products offer over the D800's high resolution great-grand-children, but so what? Will a large enough percentage of the market for such high-end devices understand the differences and be willing to pay for them when Nikon's R&D finally allows them to offer megapixel parity with my top products?

What about if Nikon/Canon eventually offer greater resolution than my products?

You can argue that this won't happen for technical reasons, or because of factors in the market that will prevent it, but this should be on somebody's radar, especially as product development is on a 3+ year cycle. You don't want to be playing catch-up.

Medium format camera makers had better be doing something to make themselves competitive 8-10 years from now. Pricing will be a factor, as will lens availability, but a 2020 model year Hasselblad will need to offer some significant advantages over the competing Nikon, or the company might not survive.

I expect to see some marketing and product changes over the next few years to better position high-end camera makers for the future they see coming. Eventually we'll see the impact of lots of research dollars funded by full-frame DSLR sales taking more and more of the market where medium format gear was the best option 2 years ago.

It's coming.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
It's not just the resolution though, it's the 'look' of the bigger sensor, where you're point is right is how much longer people will pay that much more for what most of their clientele wouldn't be able to see if you pushed their nose into the screen. I'd also disagree with you that this is the first time this argument has happened, it happened a while back with the 5DII as well.
 
S

ssanacore

Guest
Since when was MF format never been on notice. This threat is every new camera that has hit the market. Yes the Nikon is great and sure it has 36mpx and of course anything below that in MF will be questioned. Does any of this actually change what MF can actually produce. And yes I went down to a iq 140 . I don't have to worry about a crop factor anymore since I don't shoot the DF which is the only reason I went to the 160 in the first place. Since I don't shoot the DF and use a tech cam than I can drop down to the crop without affecting much. End of day and I said this for several years 40 is enough for me and I absolutely loved my P40. That has not changed and never will. Please tell me now we have a Nikon does that mean all our backs all of a sudden just became dinosaurs. No let me tell you I'm in both camps and I will support both camps because they are diffrent and they do many things for me. Everything a Pro buys is client driven or at least should be. If I had life my way I would have a M9 three lenses and go have fun. Lol
I've read that the D800 has more DR than MF backs - that along with equal MP at the low end of MF, and much lower noise at high ISO. For those that already own MF systems, it may not mean much as you can always just trade up and stay ahead in the MP race - but - for those that are considering buying a system from scratch - I think it's going to get much harder to justify.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Hasselblad cameras price reduction | Photo Rumors

this was to be expected, now lets see what " the others " will come up with.

Greetings from Lindenberg
Stefan
For me it means - the gap between a 35mm DSLR (D800) and MF has become somewhat smaller. yes. Thats why I guess the price difference will shrink further (probably). I am still a belieber of digital MF being clearly and visibly ahead of 35mm dslr. But as a customer I do like the price pressure om MF from 35mm dslr becoming better and better.
 
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