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Thread: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Interesting Thread with lots of apparently different points of view. I have just been wondering if the points of view reflect our respective situations rather than an objective assessment of the three cameras being compared.

    This is what I am seeing as I consider the impact of the D800 on my photography.

    I see three positions re this issue (there may well be more that others wish to point out).

    1. Those who currently own a MFDB

    2. Those who are, or were considering the purchase of a MFDB

    3. Those who have no intention or capacity to purchase a MFDB.

    So each of those groups seem to have three broad options available to them (again there are probably more but you get my point)

    Group 1 who currently own a MFDB have roughly three options
    (a) BAIL OUT - sell and move on
    (b) RATIONALIZE - defend the current benefits of IQ180 files for example.
    (c) WAIT - maybe Phase 1 will bring out a better camera, a bigger sensor etc, etc

    Those in Group 2 who are or were thinking of buying a MFDB also have three options.
    (a) BE GRATEFUL - Review the savings now possible if the D800 fits their needs.
    (b) BE OPTIMISTIC - wow now MFDB will be cheaper and second hand units in greater supply
    (c) WAIT - What will the next generation of MFDB's deliver

    Those in Group 3 who don't want or cant afford a MFDB have three broad options
    (a) CELEBRATE - the D800 is the latest camera with premium performance per $ spent
    (b) ASSASSINATE - the IQ180 was King last year but now lets chop off his head
    (c) ENJOY - the conversation that these releases engender - and wait for the next killer camera to come along that makes the D800 look shabby and past it's use by date.

    I currently own a MFDB and have opted for the WAIT and see what happens next option.
    This decision may result in me having the most expensive paper weight in the street.


    I respect that everyone has a reason for their point of view - this is my attempt to appreciate the different views expressed in this thread.

    cheers.


    mal

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Marc, how many of the greats are known for the 'look' of the equipment they use rather than the content and the way they use them? (honest question) .
    I agree that it is more about what you shoot and how you interpret, influence or maniputlate the subject infront of the lens rather than the tools you use. However I consider using the right tools to be of importance because it is important in reinforcing what you do with your head.

    This very short video sums it up pretty well:

    http://youtu.be/18wmonxTjX0

    But the right tool for what you have in mind puts it onto a print in a better way.

    I shoot from 35mm (digital), medium format (film and digital) and 8x10 film and alternative processes.

    While I shoot similar subjects with all three I have over the years told many times that I was chosen due to this or that image. They are pretty much all 6x8cm or 8x10 film/Polaroid. While many say the layman cannot distinguish one format from the other it is clear to me that I get different uumms and aaahs from larger formats. I see no significant difference in reaction to digital 35mm and digital medium format.

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Marc, how many of the greats are known for the 'look' of the equipment they use rather than the content and the way they use them? (honest question)

    It's a point I've been musing about for the past few weeks after the end of year exhibition from my art students. So much incredible and diverse work, all 8X12" prints, 90% shot on p&s's or on my lent 5Dc + 50mm lens set at f5.6. I was sitting at the display at the end of the evening when a couple of students from a nearby college walked by. They stopped to look and I overheard a muttered comment about two of the displays 'if I had a better camera..'. I really enjoyed walking over and telling them that the photographs were taken on p&s's, one of which had been set to 3 megapixel mode to make the pictures faster to load up to facebook! That sent them off red faced.

    I honestly want to believe, as an artist, that the differences in nuance which most other photographers cannot see nevermind the viewing public, can only be a personal need and not a necessity for producing the art.
    Good question Ben, and one that goes to the heart of many of these technical discussions or debates.

    My mentor was/is a very successful fashion/lifestyle photographer in mega competitive NYC who initially infected me with an interest in exploring the array of interesting optics and photographic tools available to photographers as part of the look and feel imparted on a photographic artist's vision.

    The camera/media was of secondary importance, being just the box to hold the optics. His gear vault was amazing ... all sorts of exotic lenses , mostly Contax and Leica and a few obscure optical delights. Some of it was beyond me, but his talent and skill was unquestioned, as were his results.

    He was not a gear snob, and the proof of that came when he chose a 6 meg P&S to shoot a major campaign for international client because it fit his concept and vision for the imagery. BTW, he showed me huge prints from that shoot So, size wasn't the criteria, it was the look and feel as part of the idea ... which is why I use those terms a lot in these discussions.

    The last point being the most important distinction in relation to some of these debates. Concept, vision, content first, selection of executional tools to follow. NOT pick the tool and force the concept, vision, or content to it.

    So, for example, I would not even consider telling an artist like wild-life photographer Doug Herr that his choice of a Leica DMR and the exotic manual focus Leica Teles he uses ... fraught with all sorts of impediments compared to most any modern DSLR, is technically archaic and there are better tools. That would be techno-snobbery fruitlessly arguing against obvious personal creative results.

    I wouldn't think to brow-beat my friend Irakly for his death grip on his long discontinued Contax 645 system and need for expensive DB to shoot digitally ... hard to argue against his use of those Zeiss/Contax optics for some of the work he does. If he eventually changes that out, it'll be for a Leica S2/3/4 ... because of the lenses.

    I could subjectively cite 100 such examples, including famous shooters, who bucked or are bucking the homogenization of our tools, and exalt diversity of choice, some very subtile but important to their look and feel. Conversely, I also feel some if not many have stepped backward into a more technologically homogeneous grey area that has lessened their rendering of a personal vision ... just as they were getting it down pat.

    So IMO, personal need for a specific look and feel IS part of the art.

    BTW, I don't think the differences are all that subtile in terms of how an idea or some content is rendered ... and that people can't tell the difference is at best an indictment of how we have come to evaluate those differences, at worse an indication of the slow but steady homogenization of photographic art ... that does more to hide a vision than to bring it to the forefront.

    Of course, if you don't have a personal vision or aren't working on one, then it is all a moot point

    -Marc

    BTW, I think you are doing the right thing with your students ... teach them about ideas, content and craft ... focus on building that vision ... then they can make more informed decisions as to personalizing it with the tools they choose to use ... be it a P&S, an IQ180 on an ALPA, or anything in between.
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    I don't think we are disagreeing however Marc that outside of requirements (the need for printing large that others have mentioned and there are many other similar examples), the choice of a tool as that of artistic expression is essentially a personal one and therefore any argument about whether it is the correct tool is by definition a silly one. If it is correct for you and your choice of expression then it is by definition the correct tool for you. How anyone could argue that point because another tool is correct for them and their needs is beyond me.

    For you a WLF finder, the micro contrast, the drawing of your lenses is important, crucial to what you do. Whether that is due to the requirements for your clients, print, etc or due to your personal needs for a look or a feel. That someone else does not have those requirements cannot in any way be used as an argument that your choices are wrong! Your choices are extremely subjective as are the choices for everyone else.

    That was my point, that the question of which tool to use can only be answered by the person who will be using it. Period. At that point the idea of anyone taking others choices personally is silly in the extreme.

    Heck it's what we love about getdpi isn't it? That one of the figureheads is a guy who has used every single system on earth, owned every system on earth and that will continue until his wife finally kills him. The objective strengths of each system have to be sought out and placed before us so that we can make a rational and personal choice based on our requirements, needs, choices, hangups, etc.

    To round it up, I'm not arguing that the choice of tools needed to create an artistic expression are not valid, just that it is and has to be so personal that any argument about that choice is a waste of time.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I don't think we are disagreeing however Marc that outside of requirements (the need for printing large that others have mentioned and there are many other similar examples), the choice of a tool as that of artistic expression is essentially a personal one and therefore any argument about whether it is the correct tool is by definition a silly one. If it is correct for you and your choice of expression then it is by definition the correct tool for you. How anyone could argue that point because another tool is correct for them and their needs is beyond me.

    I agree. Which is why I will continue to debate discounting a whole category of tools on the competitive basis of "almost as good" ... when actually it is "good, but different", and it is nice to have the choice to make or reject based on your own rendering of ideas that you as an artist require for a look or feel.

    For you a WLF finder, the micro contrast, the drawing of your lenses is important, crucial to what you do. Whether that is due to the requirements for your clients, print, etc or due to your personal needs for a look or a feel. That someone else does not have those requirements cannot in any way be used as an argument that your choices are wrong! Your choices are extremely subjective as are the choices for everyone else.

    An over-simplification and too much emphasis on a few features, but ... Yep! However, shooting 1/800 or 1/1000 high sync speeds with my choice of lighting systems isn't a subjective need, it is critical to some of the vision I have for new areas of photography I'm exploring. That eliminates a number of choices for the tools needed.

    That was my point, that the question of which tool to use can only be answered by the person who will be using it. Period. At that point the idea of anyone taking others choices personally is silly in the extreme.

    Yet, isn't that what you are implying when you say " ... the argument about spending tens of thousands of dollars on a couple more percent of subjective IQ is a techy argument, not an artists argument IMHO." When in fact, it isn't a technical argument at all ... it is a lot more about the over-all look and feel one gets with certain system/lenses/or capabilities ... or should be IMHO.

    For someone like Fred, it may be a larger format approach that suits his style and solicits the ooohs and aaahhs from his audience despite the perceived inconvenience or what-ever others may see compared to other tools and processes. Subjective? Yes! Art is subjective.

    I spent well over a year debating and testing the Leica S2 before committing long term to the system. It sure the Hell wasn't based on the sensor size, I already had a 40 meg camera. It sure the Hell wasn't based on price, being heart-stopping expensive. It was because I finally understood the nature of what Leica had accomplished with this camera and the S lenses, and how it could assist me in a certain look and feel that I subjectively deemed as more inherently and effortlessly natural looking (which others have also noticed and commented on)


    Heck it's what we love about getdpi isn't it? That one of the figureheads is a guy who has used every single system on earth, owned every system on earth and that will continue until his wife finally kills him. The objective strengths of each system have to be sought out and placed before us so that we can make a rational and personal choice based on our requirements, needs, choices, hangups, etc.

    IMO, there is a difference between hopping around and changing systems like underwear, and finding what suits you and building on it. Guy has his rationale as does everyone else. Personally, I'd still be shooting with a Contax 645 and Contax N Digital with Zeiss optics if Kyocera hadn't baled on photography ... if those systems had continued to evolve I wouldn't have been jumping around so much myself. Not until the A900 did I get back to that which suited my eye, mostly due to the Zeiss lenses. I've shot a Leica M for 40 years, still do, and will continue until I can't focus it anymore.

    To round it up, I'm not arguing that the choice of tools needed to create an artistic expression are not valid, just that it is and has to be so personal that any argument about that choice is a waste of time.
    -Marc

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    You woke up the lens whore my ears where ringing. LOL

    I was having 200mm F 2 dreams. Than I had a SK28 dream on my 140. It was like Claritin commercial someone pulled the foggy coating off. Ouch that is sharp. Crap I really like both systems. Need to start knitting another ski mask
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    I dreamt my wife was telling me to get up and deal with the crying baby. Oh that wasn't a dream.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    Group 1 who currently own a MFDB have roughly three options
    (a) BAIL OUT - sell and move on
    (b) RATIONALIZE - defend the current benefits of IQ180 files for example.
    (c) WAIT - maybe Phase 1 will bring out a better camera, a bigger sensor etc, etc
    ????? Can't I simply keep using this great camera I have to continue to make great images? I always thought the point of photography was photography, not trying to purchase the latest camera manufacturers produce. Oddly enough, the fact the D800 exists has zero impact on my photography--my images still look just as great.
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    I have a confession to make. Did a lot of playing about with raw files from the D800 and 5D3 last night, um, I like the colours and tones of the 5D3 better. I shall now fall on my lensbaby and begone from the world of serious photography.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    ????? Can't I simply keep using this great camera I have to continue to make great images? I always thought the point of photography was photography, not trying to purchase the latest camera manufacturers produce. Oddly enough, the fact the D800 exists has zero impact on my photography--my images still look just as great.
    Finally, someone said it.

    -Marc
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I have a confession to make. Did a lot of playing about with raw files from the D800 and 5D3 last night, um, I like the colours and tones of the 5D3 better. I shall now fall on my lensbaby and begone from the world of serious photography.


    -Marc
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    "This decision may result in me having the most expensive paper weight in the street."

    Can't you use it to take photographs?
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "This decision may result in me having the most expensive paper weight in the street."

    Can't you use it to take photographs?
    But think of the embarrassment. My Pentax 645D is only 6th in DoX Mark score out of 165 cameras. Who will think if I am real photographer if I don't have the camera du jour. And my image won't have the best IQ that they could possible have. It is such a disgrace. (You wouldn't want to go back to the dark ages and judge a photograph based on its merit when we can easily quantify the work based on the DR of the sensor.)
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Yea send that to me, need to trash that thing. What are you thinking.LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    There is a new camera. People are saying it is great. We want to buy it.
    Maybe we buy too many and too often.. for some reasons.
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Just got done shooting dancers in a studio setting for four hours, 9 more hours tomorrow. At my feet was a bag with my 1Ds3 and 5D3. What I used was my RZ with a Leaf 7-II. 35mm does not have a waist level finder...

    Now two weeks from now, the RZ stays home. Could I have done today with either of my FF bodies? Yes. Would I have had more fun? No. Would the number of in focus frames have been different? Yes but the advantage is actually with the RZ The last time I used the 1Ds for this gig 2 years ago it sucked rocks

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    From what I know of photography, light is everything. You can change the details in a photo with proper lighting much more than comparing the difference between a d800 and IQ180. For me just the sync speed of the medium format cameras is enough to keep my camera. And regardless of everything else, the look medium format produces will never be rivaled by 35mm. Medium Format has also trained me to take less and less shots and create better composition before shooting, as 35mm makes you just want to shoot and prey

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Imagine for a moment that the perfect MFDB sensor is in a DSLR body. Take the issue of the sensor out of the mix. Then what you have is an well functioning, integrated, smaller system-based camera, with lots of lenses, and the ability to shoot at high ISO.

    It also comes with some downsides: such as 2:3 image size, a less-than ideal viewfinder, and most of the lenses won't match the needs of the sensor.

    Diffraction raises its head, as the sensor has smaller pixels etc.

    The need for good lenses means the Zeiss primes, or similar, adding weight back to the equation. The sensor is demanding of good technique, likely tripod based for landscape work.

    Its trade-offs again. While cheaper, smaller, and of high quality, at the end of the day, its is just a different approach. Not better, not worse, just a different collection of the various aspects that go into making the high quality photo.

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    As an amateur, I shoot A DSLR because it gives me good AF and zoom lenses so I can have more freedom in the way I compose and I can leave the tripod in the car. I also don't need to worry about cleaning the sensor because I never take the lens off...

    In fact Nikon just announced a new super-zoom DX lens, the 18-300/3.5-5.6 and I bet you that it is just as bad as my 18-200...(I might still buy one because it has a lock button to stop the barrel from dropping when the camera in hanging off you shoulder)

    Yesterday I saw some D800 test files that were shot on a repro setup with a Schneider 90mm Macro T/S lens. They were very good but not as good as 33MP, 4 yr old MFDB files shot with a similar lens.

    As an amateur, if shooting a DSLR means that I have to cary a tripod, use manual focus prime lenses and rely on live view (because I can't focus manually with a tiny viewfinder), then I'm loosing the benefits of shooting a DSLR

    That's my opinion, YMMV...

    Yair
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    As an amateur, if shooting a DSLR means that I have to cary a tripod, use manual focus prime lenses and rely on live view (because I can't focus manually with a tiny viewfinder), then I'm loosing the benefits of shooting a DSLR

    That's my opinion, YMMV...

    Yair
    I'm with Yair on this one. But then again I shoot tech + IQ, DF + IQ or a Fuji XPro1 for travel. ( confession - I also have an astro D800 coming but For non-Fuji use & LOOONG exposures).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    They have a big 2 day expo "rep fest" here at the last remaining large camera store ... so I went to pick-up a few lighting items I was looking for because they typically beat B&H pricing by a lot, and no added tax.

    While there, I had my first hands-on with the D800. Nice compact size, but sturdy feeling as you'd expect of Nikon ... but when I raised it to my eye I was shocked at the small little window on the world ... it's funny how experiences are colored by expectations. I have been shooting continuously for the past few weeks with the S2 and H4D/60, and had grown accustomed to the big bright viewfinders.

    Also re-connected with the Mac Group rep that wrote a nice deal on some Profoto goodies for me, and he wants to get one of new Leaf Creo backs in my hands for my opinion. If I can swing it, I have a major conceptual portrait session coming up, and it'd be great to try it then where I'll be using the S2 and H4D/60.

    Wish I could get my mits on a D800 and new 35 and 85 then also. Anyone with a D800 near the Detroit area that has Thursday, July 12 open? PM me. Lots of cool lighting, stylists, and the whole shebang!

    -Marc

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post

    As an amateur, if shooting a DSLR means that I have to cary a tripod, use manual focus prime lenses and rely on live view (because I can't focus manually with a tiny viewfinder), then I'm loosing the benefits of shooting a DSLR

    That's my opinion, YMMV...

    Yair
    Well, you'll be pleased to hear that it doesn't mean that at all. Not in the slightest. I very rarely use a tripod with my d800/e and manual focus has so far not let me down as often as AF does on a Phase DF body.

    Glad I could calm your fears by relaying my experience!

    Tim
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Well, you'll be pleased to hear that it doesn't mean that at all. Not in the slightest. I very rarely use a tripod with my d800/e and manual focus has so far not let me down as often as AF does on a Phase DF body.

    Glad I could calm your fears by relaying my experience!

    Tim
    Personally I struggle with manual focus on my Nikon and other Nikons I've used in the past and I've yet to find a zoom that is good across the focal length range and at all apertures....hence why I don't bother with full frame and stick to a low-ish res chip...
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    As an amateur, I shoot A DSLR because it gives me good AF and zoom lenses so I can have more freedom in the way I compose and I can leave the tripod in the car. I also don't need to worry about cleaning the sensor because I never take the lens off...

    In fact Nikon just announced a new super-zoom DX lens, the 18-300/3.5-5.6 and I bet you that it is just as bad as my 18-200...(I might still buy one because it has a lock button to stop the barrel from dropping when the camera in hanging off you shoulder)

    Yesterday I saw some D800 test files that were shot on a repro setup with a Schneider 90mm Macro T/S lens. They were very good but not as good as 33MP, 4 yr old MFDB files shot with a similar lens.

    As an amateur, if shooting a DSLR means that I have to cary a tripod, use manual focus prime lenses and rely on live view (because I can't focus manually with a tiny viewfinder), then I'm loosing the benefits of shooting a DSLR

    That's my opinion, YMMV...

    Yair
    Not necessarily DSLR meas no tripod, and AF only. That is an added advantage, depends on application. As a landscape photographer, in my Canon 1Ds days also I was using TS-E lenses, 24mm & 90mm.

    After moving to MFDB, I don't have TS-E lenses with my AFD-II & DF.

    There is only one SK 120 only for Phase DF mount. Otherwise you have to use HB Zeiss lenses with 3rd party tilt shift adopters.

    Ultimate solution is MFDB & technical camera. Could be another $15K for body and 3 lenses, in addition to MFDB.

    I also have D800, and I will be using it same way I use my DF & IQ160 for landscape photography. For candid shoots, yes handheld and AF will be plus.

    If money is limited, D800 is a good compromise. For ultimate quality, MFDB with technical camera is for landscape photographers.

    Every photographer can buy the camera system based on their budget. As of today overall quality will be better in MFDB.

    Every individual photographer have to decide how much they want to pay and what quality they want to get.

    However kudos to Nikon for what they have delivered within $3000. We are now dare to compare it with MFDB.

    Subrata

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Personally I struggle with manual focus on my Nikon and other Nikons I've used in the past and I've yet to find a zoom that is good across the focal length range and at all apertures....hence why I don't bother with full frame and stick to a low-ish res chip...
    I also struggle with manual focus on my DF.

    What I like now is "Focus Mask" in IQ DB. Now I know in the field, what I'm doing and I can do focus bracketing, if required.

    Subrata

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    As an amateur, I shoot A DSLR because it gives me good AF and zoom lenses so I can have more freedom in the way I compose and I can leave the tripod in the car. I also don't need to worry about cleaning the sensor because I never take the lens off...

    In fact Nikon just announced a new super-zoom DX lens, the 18-300/3.5-5.6 and I bet you that it is just as bad as my 18-200...(I might still buy one because it has a lock button to stop the barrel from dropping when the camera in hanging off you shoulder)

    Yesterday I saw some D800 test files that were shot on a repro setup with a Schneider 90mm Macro T/S lens. They were very good but not as good as 33MP, 4 yr old MFDB files shot with a similar lens.

    As an amateur, if shooting a DSLR means that I have to cary a tripod, use manual focus prime lenses and rely on live view (because I can't focus manually with a tiny viewfinder), then I'm loosing the benefits of shooting a DSLR

    That's my opinion, YMMV...

    Yair
    Not necessarily DSLR meas no tripod, and AF only. That is an added advantage, depends on application. As a landscape photographer, in my Canon 1Ds days also I was using TS-E lenses, 24mm & 90mm.

    After moving to MFDB, I don't have TS-E lenses with my AFD-II & DF.

    There is only one SK 120 only for Phase DF mount. Otherwise you have to use HB Zeiss lenses with 3rd party tilt shift adopters.

    Ultimate solution is MFDB & technical camera. Could be another $15K for body and 3 lenses, in addition to MFDB.

    I also have D800, and I will be using it same way I use my DF & IQ160 for landscape photography. For candid shoots, yes handheld and AF will be plus.

    If money is limited, D800 is a good compromise. For ultimate quality, MFDB with technical camera is for landscape photographers.

    Every photographer can buy the camera system based on their budget. As of today overall quality will be better in MFDB.

    Every individual photographer have to decide how much they want to pay and what quality they want to get.

    However kudos to Nikon for what they have delivered within $3000. We are now dare to compare it with MFDB.

    Subrata

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Well, you'll be pleased to hear that it doesn't mean that at all. Not in the slightest. I very rarely use a tripod with my d800/e and manual focus has so far not let me down as often as AF does on a Phase DF body.

    Glad I could calm your fears by relaying my experience!

    Tim
    I thought this of the DF body too. The brief period I had one I was getting lots of missed focus shots using the AF which really surprised me. I never understood why Phase could have such nice backs and push the DF body. It's not anywhere close to the H4 or Hy6, or even older stuff like the Contax.

    But in general, the big viewfinder of the MF cameras really is a treat compared to the DSLR's.

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    I thought this of the DF body too. The brief period I had one I was getting lots of missed focus shots using the AF which really surprised me. I never understood why Phase could have such nice backs and push the DF body. It's not anywhere close to the H4 or Hy6, or even older stuff like the Contax.

    But in general, the big viewfinder of the MF cameras really is a treat compared to the DSLR's.
    For DF, Phase didn't start from the scratch. It is an improvement from Mamiya AFD II/III, probably done by Mamiya with Phase One logo. Auto focus is faster than Mamiya AFD.

    I hope new DF body in next year will be better.

    Subrata

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    For DF, Phase didn't start from the scratch. It is an improvement from Mamiya AFD II/III, probably done by Mamiya with Phase One logo. Auto focus is faster than Mamiya AFD.

    I hope new DF body in next year will be better.

    Subrata
    If it was an improvement then the AFD III really must be a dog. Hard to believe that's the best they can do after 4 design versions.
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    for now i'm sticking with my Aptus II 3 33mp... the only benefit i can see for the nikon is hight iso performance... but, in my job i'm using the tripod all the time !

    cons for the D800 ( in my opinion... ):
    no 17 PCe
    a 24 PCe not so good
    no 35 or similar PCe (the 45 is too long)
    no AF "pancake" 35 or 40
    i've test a D800 hand held and wasn't able to get really good results in Manual...
    so if i have to use a tripod and live view, the i stick with my MF
    impossible to adjust the focus confirmation with zeiss lenses
    and from a business perspective... it doesn't impress the client... compare to a technical camera... sometimes it's important... stupid but important !


    pros
    small
    cheap body compare to MF
    good battery life
    live view
    video
    some good lens are really cheap
    hight iso performance... it means less power needed for strobes... economy !
    long exposure capabilities... grgrgrggrr !


    so for my use, i'm sticking with my back

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    for now i'm sticking with my Aptus II 3 33mp... the only benefit i can see for the nikon is hight iso performance... but, in my job i'm using the tripod all the time !

    cons for the D800 ( in my opinion... ):
    no 17 PCe
    a 24 PCe not so good
    no 35 or similar PCe (the 45 is too long)
    no AF "pancake" 35 or 40
    i've test a D800 hand held and wasn't able to get really good results in Manual...
    so if i have to use a tripod and live view, the i stick with my MF
    impossible to adjust the focus confirmation with zeiss lenses
    and from a business perspective... it doesn't impress the client... compare to a technical camera... sometimes it's important... stupid but important !


    pros
    small
    cheap body compare to MF
    good battery life
    live view
    video
    some good lens are really cheap
    hight iso performance... it means less power needed for strobes... economy !
    long exposure capabilities... grgrgrggrr !


    so for my use, i'm sticking with my back
    almost exactly my conclusion. There are not enough of high quality and flexible tilt-shift lenses, and my shooting style works well with a tech camera, only rarely I face situations I wish it was more like a dslr. The tech camera usually gives me a very enjoyable shooting experience with a solid workmanship feel to it.

    As an amateur I have no customers to impress though. I try to impress my friends but they just think it is some strange vintage film camera, and when they hear its digital and realize what it costs despite its limited flexibility they think I am an idiot :-).
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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    As an amateur I have no customers to impress though. I try to impress my friends but they just think it is some strange vintage film camera, and when they hear its digital and realize what it costs despite its limited flexibility they think I am an idiot :-).
    Ha! Yes! One of my favorite things about shooting a tech camera, especially an Alpa, is at shows when people ask me what camera I use. You can see in their eyes they want to hear Canon or Nikon so they can launch into a camera discussion. I say, "Alpa" and I get this blank, lost stare. End of discussion

    Dave

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I say, "Alpa" and I get this blank, lost stare. End of discussion

    Dave
    You just know their first thought is "the dog food company?"
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    With me, no one has gotten further than " is that? A camera?"

    --Matt

  35. #235
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Walked through a local park yesterday with my ALPA Max on a tripod over my shoulder, with an iPhone on it, and a landscape workers said "Cool camera."

  36. #236
    Member Richard Osbourne's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Well, I had to find out what all the fuss about the D800 was so a couple of weeks ago I went up to Warehouse Express and compared a D800e with my 5dII and Cambo DS with P45+ back.

    This was a quick and dirty interior test so didn't reveal as much as shooting a landscape might. I used the 17-40 on the 5DII (as I said, quick and dirty), 14-24 and 24-70 on the D800e, and Schneider 24XL and 35XL on the Cambo.

    Quick summary of results:

    D800 has great dynamic range, pretty much up there with the P45+. Resolution, even with the D800e and 14-24 is noticeably less than P45+/Schneiders but still significantly higher than the 5DII, as you would expect. The 14-24 is a beautiful lens - big and heavy though.
    Biggest surprise was just how inaccurate the colours of both the Canon and the D800 were - they simply didn't accurately reproduce what I saw. I'm looking back at the last 10 years of shooting with Canon digital gear, and slightly weeping at the thought of how the colours were never quite right, despite a lot of struggles in post. And even stitching to 100+MP using the 50 1.2L, the images aren't as crisp as the Cambo.

    Here is a link to download full res JPEG12s of the 3 files.
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10489236/D800%20TEST.zip

    Points to note:
    My 24XL has a problem on the right hand side which Cambo should be sorting for me soon.
    Note the colour of the floor - it's only right on the P45 file. Also, look at the 'blue' hanging signs, rendered as purplish on the Canikons.
    All processing done with my regular settings in C1 - sharpening of 130/1.3/1 and I've just equalised exposure (imperfectly) between the 3 files.

    Hope these are useful to some of you. I won't be getting a D800, simply because of the colours. Perhaps they could be improved with profiling but I'm waiting for Canon's (hoped for / expected) big MP whopper - if the colours are one step up from the D800. The convenience and high ISO performance of 35mm still has its place in my work.

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    it looks like people having trouble with long exposure with their D800... a deal breaker for me !

  38. #238
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    it looks like people having trouble with long exposure with their D800... a deal breaker for me !
    I'm not in a love fest with my D800 but long exposure performance definitely seems pretty decent to me. I bought mine specifically for this use and so far I haven't had any issues other than the live view at night being inferior to Canon's offering. Noise levels are low and I can shoot multi-minute exposures at low ISOs without really even needing LENR.

    What are you hearing or seeing?
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Osbourne View Post
    Well, I had to find out what all the fuss about the D800 was so a couple of weeks ago I went up to Warehouse Express and compared a D800e with my 5dII and Cambo DS with P45+ back.

    This was a quick and dirty interior test so didn't reveal as much as shooting a landscape might. I used the 17-40 on the 5DII (as I said, quick and dirty), 14-24 and 24-70 on the D800e, and Schneider 24XL and 35XL on the Cambo.

    Quick summary of results:

    D800 has great dynamic range, pretty much up there with the P45+. Resolution, even with the D800e and 14-24 is noticeably less than P45+/Schneiders but still significantly higher than the 5DII, as you would expect. The 14-24 is a beautiful lens - big and heavy though.
    Biggest surprise was just how inaccurate the colours of both the Canon and the D800 were - they simply didn't accurately reproduce what I saw. I'm looking back at the last 10 years of shooting with Canon digital gear, and slightly weeping at the thought of how the colours were never quite right, despite a lot of struggles in post. And even stitching to 100+MP using the 50 1.2L, the images aren't as crisp as the Cambo.

    Here is a link to download full res JPEG12s of the 3 files.
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10489236/D800%20TEST.zip

    Points to note:
    My 24XL has a problem on the right hand side which Cambo should be sorting for me soon.
    Note the colour of the floor - it's only right on the P45 file. Also, look at the 'blue' hanging signs, rendered as purplish on the Canikons.
    All processing done with my regular settings in C1 - sharpening of 130/1.3/1 and I've just equalised exposure (imperfectly) between the 3 files.

    Hope these are useful to some of you. I won't be getting a D800, simply because of the colours. Perhaps they could be improved with profiling but I'm waiting for Canon's (hoped for / expected) big MP whopper - if the colours are one step up from the D800. The convenience and high ISO performance of 35mm still has its place in my work.
    Richard now let's see if you're brave enough to post this on LuLa
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    yes he was! Let the games begin.

  41. #241
    Member Richard Osbourne's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Oh dear, what have I done....
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    So I have been shooting now three (well 2.5) systems lately.
    D800: ok, good enough for government work, lots of lens choices first Canikon that is actually fun to shoot once you solve its maze of options. ZF.2 18 is a decent wide at f/8. most of the lenses I have tried are more or less ok at f/8 except the nikon 20 which would be fine if I liked oatmeal.
    Small enough to put in a bag with 2-3 lenses and walk around the streets, bulkier and heavier than Leica M but the D800's AF is better.

    DF/IQ180/LS lenses: Body is a touch temperamental but once it has been zeroed in by MAC service it focuses reasonably well. Use with live subjects is doable once you develop the technique using af on the rear button and then shooting a bunch until the distance changes and as long as you shoot at f/11. Landscape and occasional people with LS lenses wide open produce some very nice results.

    Arca Rm3di/Rodie 40/70/Schneider120/IQ180: Killer system but slow to use. Almost the full zen experience of large format except the film holders are lighter. I also have a roll film back for use when I want to remind myself why I shoot digital from a work flow point of view.

    So the bottom line is the frequency of "good" images with each system. I say "good" not meaning to imply that I am a good photographer, just that they are pleasing to me and clients.

    Results: Well it depends
    Kitchen and architecture, ok, well it pays: Arca hands down winner, D800 is in second place. Tilt and shift (or swing as is the case with so many kitchen shots) being always available is a HUGE benefit. I only own the 24PCE and it is ok but just ok. The rodies and schneiders beat it with a stick. No issue or possibility here with quick grab shots. Lighting needs to be set and adjusted, all of this work is thought-out slow work so there are few advantages with the D800 other than perhaps it might need half or a quarter the flash power at higher ISOs OTOH, that is not really so as often as one is trying to balance outdoor light with interior light.

    Event, grip and grin, and I would assume wedding other than the set shots since I don't do weddings: D800 hands down. Fast, light, high ISO that behaves well in the shadows where the 5DII and 1DsIII did not.

    Landscape usual tripod holes: Much like a kitchen these are not grab and go shots, often the biggest time spent is waiting for the light.
    Choice is either IQ180 approach with the favor going to the arca.

    Models in studio. d800 is good enough, af wins, colors are a bit off but who really knows what color that scarf is other than the manufacturer. Skin tones are acceptable but not as good as the IQ180. Favor tends to the d800 since I can move around a lot more without breaking my back. After a 4 hour shoot this is a significant point.

    So for those occasions where I might casually see something I want to shoot the d800 has earned its place in my kit.

    Serious landscape and architecture it is the arca when I know in advance pretty much what I want to shoot.

    That leaves the df in sort of a no-mans-land. If it weren't for the LS lenses it would be gone. Maybe it is time to let it go but hold on to the LS lenses in the hope that Phase will make something that fits better between the lens and back BUT and this IS a big BUT. Even if they did, the weight alone would not permit it to be my walk-about camera.

    So my first inclination was to look at the number of good images. Well I suppose they don't change much no matter what camera I am using, but I DO take more images with the d800 simply because I can.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 26th August 2012 at 03:31.
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Bob, which one is the widest, the D800 + 18mm or the IQ180 with Rodie 40mm shifted ?

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    Bob, which one is the widest, the D800 + 18mm or the IQ180 with Rodie 40mm shifted ?
    With the IQ180 / 40mm combo, you would need to shift 20mm each way in the vertical orientation to equal the diagonal of an 18mm lens in 35mm format.

    However, the ratios are of course different. My calculations assume cropping the 40-shift to the normal 4/3 format.

    But regardless, the angle of view from the two are pretty comparable when the 40 is shifted.

    Dave
    Last edited by dchew; 25th August 2012 at 09:02.

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    So I have been shooting now three (well 2.5) systems lately.
    D800: ok, good enough for government work, lots of lens choices first Canikon that is actually fun to shoot once you solve its maze of options. ZF.2 18 is a decent wide at f/8. most of the lenses I have tried are more or less ok at f/8 except the nikon 20 which would be fine if I liked oatmeal.
    Small enough to put in a bag with 2-3 lenses and walk around the streets, bulkier and heavier than Leica M but the D800's AF is better.

    DF/IQ180/LS lenses: Body is a touch temperamental but once it has been zeroed in my MAC service it focuses reasonably well. Use with live subjects is doable once you develop the technique using af on the rear button and then shooting a bunch until the distance changes and as long as you shoot at f/11. Landscape and occasional proper with LS lenses wide open produce some very nice results.

    Arca Rm3di/Rodie 40/70/Schneider120/IQ180: Killer system but slow to use. Almost the full zen experience of large format except the film holders are lighter. I also have a roll film back for use when I want to remind myself why I shoot digital from a work flow point of view.

    so the bottom line is the frequency of "good" images with each system. I say good not meaning to imply that I am a good photographer, just that they are pleasing to me and clients.

    Results: Well it depends
    Kitchen and architecture, ok, well it pays: Arca hands down winner, D800 a in second place. Tilt and shift (or swing as is the case with so many kitchen shots) being always available is a HUGE benefit. I only own the 24PCE and it is ok but just ok. The rodies and schneiders beat it with a stick. No issue here with quick grab shots. Lighting needs to be set and adjusted, all of this work is thought-out slow work so there are few advantages with the D800 other than perhaps it might need half or a quarter the flash power at higher isis OTOH, that is not really so as often one is trying to balance outdoor light with interior light.

    Event, grip and grin, and I would assume wedding other than the set shots since I don't do weddings: D800 hands down. Fast, light, high iso that behaves well in the shadows where the 5DII and 1DsIII did not.

    Landscape usual tripod holes: Much like a kitchen these are not grab and go shots, often the biggest tie spent is waiting for the light.
    Choice is either IQ180 approach with the favor going to the arcs.

    Models in studio. d800 is good enough, af wins, colors are a bit off but who really knows what color that scarf is other than the manufacturer. Skin tones are acceptable but not as good as the IQ180. Favor tends to the d800 since I can move around a lot more without breaking my back. After a 4 hour shoot this is a significant point.

    So for those occasions where I might casually see something I want to shoot the d800 has earned its place in my kit.

    Serious landscape and architecture it is the arca when I know in advance pretty much what I want to shoot.

    That leaves the df in sort of a no-mans-land. If it weren't for the LS lenses it would be gone. Maybe it is time to let it go but hold on to the LS lenses in the hope that Phase will make something that fits better between the lens and body BUT and this IS a big BUT. Even if they did, the weight alone would not permit it to be my walk-about camera.

    So my first inclination was to look at the number of good images, well I suppose they don't change much no matter what camera I am using, but I DO take more images with the d800 simply because I can.
    -bob
    Excellent summation. Really right on the mark. Of course, while in total agreement, another answer is just right where you aren't: MFDB works for me albeit with a better body than the DF (Hy6) and all those lovely Schneiders. But you put your finger right on it: where it can work is to get landscapes, and even move around shots. For really set shots, a tech camera would be better with more movements (although there is a decent PC lens, boat anchor). For action shots - maybe it can take something, but misses outnumber the hits 3:1.

    Where MFDB excels for my uses is in the urban/landscape mode, addressing well both uncertainty and movement to get the shot. The WLF really makes the difference in composition and is moving the work to another plane, which doesn't happen with DSLR. An desire for fine files is satisfied. Pretty neat right? Well.... yes... but then after about 2-3 hours, forget it. Its all over. The weight is just too much. Then again (in mid-late 50's), not sure I can concentrate much longer than that anyway, so maybe that's just about right. Gee, that's the answer - pick the best system that meets your physical endurance and the rest falls into place.

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    With the IQ180 / 40mm combo, you would need to shift 20mm each way in the vertical orientation to equal the diagonal of an 18mm lens in 35mm format.

    However, the ratios are of course different. My calculations assume cropping the 40-shift to the normal 4/3 format.

    But regardless, the angle of view from the two are pretty comparable when the 40 is shifted.

    Dave

  47. #247
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Peter, looking forward to seeing the results! Thanks for geeking out and sharing.

    Your book is proudly on display in my office with such great memories from shooting landscapes in Ireland

    Cheers,

    RJ

  48. #248
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    If it was an improvement then the AFD III really must be a dog. Hard to believe that's the best they can do after 4 design versions.
    maybe you have a bad lens, body or back or some type of mirror/viewfinder screen alignment problem?

    My DF body doesn't focus fast (doesn't do anything real fast) , but it's pretty much dead on most of the time ... as good as my canon or Nikons autofocus.
    wayne
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  49. #249
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Wayne,

    Anythings a possibility I guess. I did find the viewfinder black out was so long before the camera actually recorded the image that I would move or my model would move. DOF is pretty shallow and little bits of movement make big differences. My primary camera was the 6008AF but also shot the RZ and never had this issue and wasn't ready for it. I went to the AFi-ii 12 and was much happier.

    Anyhow photokina is almost here - maybe phase/mamiya will come out with something really new for you folks that shoot that platform?

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    Re: D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Wayne,

    Anyhow photokina is almost here - maybe phase/mamiya will come out with something really new for you folks that shoot that platform?
    fingers definitely crossed ...
    wayne
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