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Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System
- Thread starter etrigan63
- Start date
KurtKamka
Subscriber Member
Arrrgh, that's disconcerting. I value a variety of points of view and Thierry's is of value to me. The he-said, he-said minutia aside and viewing this from a big-picture perspective, I'd hate to see this forum become too one-sided in any brand's favor. Sinar needs to have a foot-hold on the forum. The company offers an excellent product that deserves representation. Don't worry, we're all fairly sophisticated and read between the lines when disagreements occur within the extended family that is GetDPI.
My .02 is that Theirry, Sinar and GetDPI lose by Theirry leaving.
My .02 is that Theirry, Sinar and GetDPI lose by Theirry leaving.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
The button system to the side to me was way to touchy and if you hit a button in the very slightest while looking into the waist level finder i wind up hitting the wrong thing. I just like other folks i have talked to think it is just a little finicky and when on pressure as i said bound to make a screw up. This is just not a simple camera and the engineering is nice but from a shooters seat maybe over engineered
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
He is welcome back at anytime as long as he follows the privacy rules of the PM system.
Bill_Green
Member
That is probably correct, and that is why you have a dealer network. Rep calls dealer and says "How would you like to make a quick sale?", dealer calls you and says the rep sent him, everyone is happy.
Regarding Thierry leaving, honestly I think that was a good idea. I have spent the vast majority of my career in public relations and the last couple years focused on building brands through conversational media. When you reach the point of defending your company in such a way that you diminish an already fragile brand, doing nothing is an improvement. I have nothing at all against Sinar or Thierry, but his online demeanor on this and other forums has left a bitter taste in my mouth for Sinar. If I have a choice of working with him or one of the people from Capture Integration, the choice is easy regardless of the product. That said, the Sinar e54 is still very attractive to me.
Stuart Richardson
Active member
I am a Sinar user, but I can definitely see both sides of this argument...both seem to have some valid points. I will say that before I purchased a Sinar camera, I experienced the "no contact" aspect of their service in the US. I had inquired about their demo backs they had posted on their website, and no one ever called me back. That said, I experienced superb service from Rollei Hensel Service (who service the 6008 series lenses that the Hy6 uses). In buying the camera and back, I went through Jack Strobel at Calumet. The experience was great -- he used to work for Sinar, so he is obviously very well plugged in there and he was able to answer basically all the questions I had and get everything organized through Sinar.
With respect to the Hy6, opinions vary. I can see why Guy does not like the interface on the side. I actually quite like it and have not had any problems with it. In future iterations of it, I think many issues people have with it could be solved by making those detents stronger, or locking. Like any camera, you need to work with it a bit before you get truly familiar with it. The Hy6 may take a bit longer than some simpler cameras, but I must say that I think it is probably the best medium format camera I have used, and I have used pretty much all the major ones. The ergonomics are better than any medium format camera I have used.
With respect to the Hy6, opinions vary. I can see why Guy does not like the interface on the side. I actually quite like it and have not had any problems with it. In future iterations of it, I think many issues people have with it could be solved by making those detents stronger, or locking. Like any camera, you need to work with it a bit before you get truly familiar with it. The Hy6 may take a bit longer than some simpler cameras, but I must say that I think it is probably the best medium format camera I have used, and I have used pretty much all the major ones. The ergonomics are better than any medium format camera I have used.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Locking the buttons or stronger detents would be very much welcome. It was just to easy to make a mistake and hit the wrong thing by accident.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
You are more than welcome. As you know i will not air out private conversations ever in public that happens between members and management. Not sure i can say the same as i have seen this morning with 1/8th of the conversation from others in the PM system. LOL
Bill,
Not sure what you are saying here. In my personal perspective, I think Thierry brought a lot to this forum. He seemed to painstakingly answer each question and did try to keep the record straight on things. That is not always easy to do when all the facts are not known to everyone and all the discussions are not on the table all the time. That is the nature of the online forum clashing with personalities and styles of communication. That being said, to suggest Sinar is "an already fragile brand" seems a bit out of place, but it is your opinion and you are entitled to it personally and publicly on forums like this, within the bounds of the forum rules.
Not looking to beat this more than it has been already. I do not own Sinar gear, but have been seriously considering it, along with Hasselblad and hopefully Leica S2. It has been around for a long time, just not as popular in the US as some other brands. That does not mean it is a fragile brand, or that the equipment sucks. People choose things for different reasons, and most of the folks on this forum have been very open, honest and tolerant of the meanderings of some discussions. That is one of the things that makes this forum much more interesting to participate in than some others. Trashing a person's demeanor just seems out of place. Nobody can know the other person's demeanor. Tone of discussion is a different matter, and personalities come into play. Thierry has, from all that I have read, been very systematical in his approach, keeping issues separated, trying to keep to the facts, yet also understanding of different needs and interests. This latest exchange on issues that many, myself included, thought had been put to bed was discomforting to read. I am not taking and sides here, as I recall much of the issues and claims from my own reading, and was actually happy to see that dust settled. Apparently not for some others, so it was resurrected and now gets hung with a mantle of "demeanor". Let folks fight that out over a beer or glass of wine someplace else. Many come here to share information, ideas, learn about gear, etc. Soap operas are for pulp paperbacks and TV shows.
Sorry for the rant to others here. I would love to see this whole thing put to bed, let tempers cool, and then get back to far more interesting discussions over gear, methods, results, etc.
Thanks for all of your time, folks.
LJ
IMO, there are times when the chemistry just isn't right.
Guy and Jack have set up a good photographer's forum for the exchange of information and experiences ... that needs to remain open and candid about those experiences.
If there is mis-information, then counter it in a non-personal manner with better information ... clean and simple.
Frankly, I do not need PMs sent to me from any rep trying to forward some personal agenda regardless of Brand. When I want that, I'll ask for it.
I do enjoy multiple points of view from all the makers concerning their brands ... so if it isn't one Sinar representitive then get another one to contribute ... if the service network is so good, that shouldn't be a problem ... right?
Guy and Jack have set up a good photographer's forum for the exchange of information and experiences ... that needs to remain open and candid about those experiences.
If there is mis-information, then counter it in a non-personal manner with better information ... clean and simple.
Frankly, I do not need PMs sent to me from any rep trying to forward some personal agenda regardless of Brand. When I want that, I'll ask for it.
I do enjoy multiple points of view from all the makers concerning their brands ... so if it isn't one Sinar representitive then get another one to contribute ... if the service network is so good, that shouldn't be a problem ... right?
Marc,
I got one also and immediately had one of those :wtf: moments. I agree with you about the value of this forum, as I have mentioned. I also agree with you about approaching disagreements in a "non-personal manner". Finally, I agree with you about the "chemistry" part, which is the part that I found to be the more disturbing of things, but that is the nature of a global "community" like this forum.
So, like you, I would love to see information exchanged again, ideas posited, experiences and results shared again, in a professional and collegial manner, and for all of us to get past the personal crap that we all have and may bring to things :thumbs:
LJ
carstenw
Active member
Guy, which buttons do you mean, the settings on the left, or the ones on the grip.
I also understood that there was something about the system which was difficult to understand, not just loose buttons?
---
Guy, I understand that you and Thierry got off on the wrong foot, but as a photographer I value both sides of the equation, and I would hope that there was some way to solve this. I know that you (*cough* FM *cough* LL) get very upset, the latin blood in you, but the other side of the equation would be the forgiveness part, and I don't think that Thierry was ever trying to make you look bad, just trying to defend the Sinar system in a way that others could understand exactly the limitations of the system, and consider it on a personal level, rather than just the "I hate it" vs. "it is perfect" kinda threads (exaggerating both sides here).
Anyway, like LL, it is nice to see more representatives here. One disadvantage Thierry has over others is that he (informally) represents the company, but a lot of the criticism has to do with the American branch/distributor, which is really not something he can change.
The equipment itself is clearly not beyond criticism, but I think that a good discussion about the pros and cons should be allowed. The history between you (Guy) and Thierry really should take the back seat, and the facts should get out. Both sides of the discussion should be considered by potential customers, and anyway, maybe Sinar will listen to your critique and stiffen up the detents a bit.
All IMO.
I also understood that there was something about the system which was difficult to understand, not just loose buttons?
---
Guy, I understand that you and Thierry got off on the wrong foot, but as a photographer I value both sides of the equation, and I would hope that there was some way to solve this. I know that you (*cough* FM *cough* LL) get very upset, the latin blood in you, but the other side of the equation would be the forgiveness part, and I don't think that Thierry was ever trying to make you look bad, just trying to defend the Sinar system in a way that others could understand exactly the limitations of the system, and consider it on a personal level, rather than just the "I hate it" vs. "it is perfect" kinda threads (exaggerating both sides here).
Anyway, like LL, it is nice to see more representatives here. One disadvantage Thierry has over others is that he (informally) represents the company, but a lot of the criticism has to do with the American branch/distributor, which is really not something he can change.
The equipment itself is clearly not beyond criticism, but I think that a good discussion about the pros and cons should be allowed. The history between you (Guy) and Thierry really should take the back seat, and the facts should get out. Both sides of the discussion should be considered by potential customers, and anyway, maybe Sinar will listen to your critique and stiffen up the detents a bit.
All IMO.
Forrest Black
New member
I concur with Bill.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Well i wrote this and sat on it all day and frankly i think i will address this because it needs to be said and i am not a nut case like some may think i am after this mornings before my espresso's forum issues. But after using our system as a avenue to spread venom to our members is completely uncalled for and completely unprofessional. Carsten I answer this because you are asking a direct question. But i want to boldly point something out here , never insist on a answer from anyone. We are here on our own free will and need not answer to anyone on your opinion. This is what set me on fire is not painting someone in a corner for a answer, when clearly i did not want to give one to begin with for reasons of my own and not to hurt or turn anyone from making any future purchases because of my opinion on something. That is not my style to bash any product , i just don't talk about it or get involved in any conversation about any product i do not like. That is my way and my belief. Less said the better.
Well bottom line is this you never insist an answer from anyone that does not want to give one. I did not want to comment on the Sinar system from what i have seen myself with my own eyes. I did not want my negaitve impressions to be viewed in public. i should not have to answer these type of things and hurt the reputation of a well known company. I did not want do that, you do not call anyone on the carpet and demand a answer unless you are ready to get an honest one. obviously you all got a piece of my e-mail from him in a PM . What you did not get was the other 7/8ths of the conversation. First off it was completely un professional and inappropriate for anyone to send these private conversations to members of the forum. But as a company representative of Sinar to do that is completely wrong and he should answer to his superiors in behaving like that and completely unprofessional. Jack and I take extreme exception to his behavior or anyone that represents a company here to act in that manner and use our PM system in this fashion, it's flat out wrong no excuses. My answers are not very pleasing on what i think of the Sinar system i worked with in Puerto Rico, and only when mentioned on this forum did anyone get off there butt and react to get the back and camera working for this member. Bottom line it would not work with several users trying to figure it out and yes some may have been user error but 150 years of Professional experience standing around trying to get my workshop member up and shooting was not a fun. At the same time within 2 minutes everyone that touched a Phase system was up and running without fail. Phase one sold 8 system at the end of this workshop and Sinar 0. Now either everyone of us on this workshop have no idea on what we are doing or something is with the Sinar system is not able to work very easily or something wrong with the system. The LCD on this back looked like it came off a P&S camera. It was horrendous and off color. So now that i said this does anyone want to run out and buy a Sinar. Not really . Reason i did not want to answer and the issue also in Ft Lauderdale which i do not even want to get into. So all the stuff i wanted to avoid comes out now and only because he would not take my advice. Also let me bring up another point, i have noticed an odd color cast in many normal images coming off these Sinar backs lately and i don't know what exactly this is but since i am letting it out there, it looks like a shifted image that need color cast correction so they maybe have to deal with that one also.
Hopefully this ends this saga but after using our PM system in a unauthorized way he is not welcome back without a public apology but the door is wide open for another representative from Sinar. I think having a balance here is good for the members and no matter what it is about the members here and you folks come first. But these folks are guests of this forum and they need to conduct themselves in the manner fit for our members, no exceptions.
At this point I will not answer anymore questions on this in public. Again less said the better . If you want to continue on the Sinar system please start a thread. It is a nice system but to me one that will not work for me the way it is setup and i will be happy to talk about that elsewhere on the forum if folks care to ask. If you have a personal question to ask me than please use the PM system and i will try and answer any questions in private where they stay and not be posted in PM's worldwide. To say i am very upset that he used our own system to spread venom is a understatement and our members here should never be exposed to this behavior. Thank you for your time and i apologize for all that happened this morning that you where disturbed in your privacy of the PM system. Thanks Guy Mancuso
Excellent point Marc!
Maybe we should post a "Help Wanted" ad in the Commercial Vendor's forum?
...
carstenw
Active member
Jack, is there some way to do it that leaves Thierry's previous posts intact? I have been reading some older threads, and some are completely disjointed now, and the page numbering is off...You bet Don! As far as I'm concerned, it's in bed as soon as somebody asks me to deactivate their account.
They ask, I deliver, story over.