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Thread: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

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    Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Elmsford, NY – In medium format digital photography, price and performance are usually at opposite ends of the digital spectrum. Normally you have to pay more – a lot more – for better quality, performance and features, certainly for the latest technology. The new Mamiya DL28 Digital Camera System totally changes that way of thinking.

    The Mamiya DL28 Digital Camera System offers professional features and benefits found in much more expensive cameras. For example, even though the DL28’s resolution is an impressive 28 Megapixels, its large sensor allows a pixel size of 7.2 microns, producing images with unmatched richness and color accuracy, low noise, and striking highlight and shadow detail. Its 3.5-inch (diagonal) screen is the largest in the industry and offers a bright, high-contrast touch screen that is ideal for outdoor or indoor work.

    The DL28 marries the professionally proven Mamiya camera system to the innovative 28 megapixel Aptus-II 6 Digital Back from Leaf - a system capable of unrivaled performance, image quality and value. The 645AFD III body has a new coreless motor for faster, more accurate autofocusing and an enhanced interface system that provides total communication between the camera, lens and digital back. The 645AFD III and Leaf Aptus-II 6 Digital Back work as an integral unit so you’ll never miss the action.

    With 16-bit capture, 12 stop dynamic range and an ISO range of 50-800, the Mamiya DL28 is a full featured professional digital solution that allows photographers to focus on creating the image and not worrying about the technology. The 28 MP back provides raw files of 53Mb, and 16 bit TIFF files in excess of 159 Mb – ensuring that you’ll have the information needed for virtually any size reproduction.

    Compact flash media storage makes it easy to shoot untethered on location or in the studio. You can also use the included firewire cable and Leaf Capture 11.2 software to shoot directly to your computer. And the latest Leaf Capture software allows other people - in the field or in the studio - to view your creativity on their iPhones as you continue shooting!

    The Mamiya DL28 will be available November 2008. MAP price is $14,999.



    Is it me or does anyone else find this combo very enticing? I'm gonna have to save up for this...
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    What makes this a new system? Isn't it just a package deal of components that have been available for some time?

    The Hy6 65 is only $2K more and offers quite a few advantages (saves images as DNG internally, processes JPGs internally, 640x480 LCD, brighter viewfinder, viewfinder options, single Li+ battery, 2-3 stops faster flash sync, etc). Definitely worth a look in this price range.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    I didn't write the press release, Graham. I just reported it. Still this drop in pricing bodes well for the future availability of MF kit to the common man.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    What makes this a new system? Isn't it just a package deal of components that have been available for some time?

    The Hy6 65 is only $2K more and offers quite a few advantages (saves images as DNG internally, processes JPGs internally, 640x480 LCD, brighter viewfinder, viewfinder options, single Li+ battery, 2-3 stops faster flash sync, etc). Definitely worth a look in this price range.
    Because many folks including myself will not buy a Sinar system. Some want and need focal plane shutters.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Guy, that's true... if you really need 1/2000 - 1/4000 shutter speed then the Hy6 won't cut it but you can still use an eSprit 65 back on the Mamiya platform.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    You can and it does offer some advantages over the leaf back with some of the new stuff. Price though here in the states seems like a moving target with Sinar. No offense intended but US support is pretty limited and for you much more available. I reside on the other side of the world. I don't know any Sinar folks besides Dave McRitchie and of course Theirry. I would like to see a stronger presence in the US for Sinar. I think a lot of US shooters feel the same way when we compare with Hassy and Phase dealers that are pretty bountiful. Hopefully that will change
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    I like the combo because Aperture2 can read Leaf files. That, and the iPhone gimmick is slick. Can the Aptus-II 6 back be mounted on a plain-old Mamiya AFD?
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    It should be able too . the mount has not changed with any of the AFD bodies
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    The more I look at my workflow - the more I like Sinar backs and their ability to let the user change mounting adaptors in order to switch between various camera platforms as required. So ONE back can give me access to ANY camera platform as well as Alpa as well as technical/ view camera.

    Hasselblad offers similar functionaity via their CF backs - but they have now discontinued their fat boy pixel 22 meg back. Of course Hasselblad does not have the total system offer that Sinar provides in terms of camera systems. In fact in order to use my F/FE lenses - I need ot mount them on a Mamiya OR a Contax via adaptor OR get a V mount and lose Mamiya functionality and use a cable release if I want to use my 40 megapixel backs on a 203/205.

    To me the focal plane vs leaf shutter systems are a moot point because I want BOTH. Now as I look at my P45+ I have a mamiya mount and my H3D11-39 has an H1 mount - neither of these systems allows me the flexibility that SINAR delivers.

    I prefer to look at a digi back in the same way I look at film. You buy your film and you get to use it on ANY camera you need to use. I am over manufacturers dictating to me what lenses and bodies I may or may not use according to THEIR agendas - effectively limiting my choice in ever narrowing choices.

    So I would not be surprised to find myself migrating to Sinar over time - as this company's film back type model has relatively greater appeal for me. So given that the Hy6 is now out and presumably any bugs haev been worked out and given teh fact that the new software is due to be released in amonth or so and given the fact that they will inevitably roll out the improved LCD and internal processing into the range of backs - my previous reservations are all being adressed.

    I really believe that most people think of teh MFD back as a 35mm DSLR on steriods - I have never subscribed to this view. 35m cameras are MUCH better at doing MANY things that a MF system just cant do - high ISO is just one factor, telephoto is another, size is another, ahnd holding ability is another.

    The more we try and get manufacturers to make BIG 35mm systems - the less photographers will end up getting in terms of IQ.

  10. #10
    thsinar
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    "Sinar m" Guy!

    It's also part of the Sinar system.


    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Because many folks including myself will not buy a Sinar system. Some want and need focal plane shutters.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    LOL . I was waiting for that. It certainly is cool looking
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    I like the combo because Aperture2 can read Leaf files. That, and the iPhone gimmick is slick. Can the Aptus-II 6 back be mounted on a plain-old Mamiya AFD?
    Yes, as well as RZ, RB or any 4X5/ 6X9 view camera, with no limitation as it does not use microlenses and of top of it you get the MAC group behind it, for what it probably the best support and service system in the US.

    See also this offer from Leaf America

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Thanks Yair. Sadly, I am not in any kind of financial situation right now that would allow me to own a Leaf DB (or anyone else's). If my business picks up, I will certainly consider a Leaf back for my AFD, unless an offer similar to the one that got me the AFD comes my way. (I picked it up used for $800) Maybe I can get Mamiya to send me a DL28 for review.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You can and it does offer some advantages over the leaf back with some of the new stuff. Price though here in the states seems like a moving target with Sinar. No offense intended but US support is pretty limited and for you much more available. I reside on the other side of the world. I don't know any Sinar folks besides Dave McRitchie and of course Theirry. I would like to see a stronger presence in the US for Sinar. I think a lot of US shooters feel the same way when we compare with Hassy and Phase dealers that are pretty bountiful. Hopefully that will change
    Guy,

    You state that "US support is pretty limited". I am not quite sure what that means? SBI has been in operation as the US distributor of Sinar products for about 28 years. We have a facility in Edison, NJ that offers customer support, technical support, warehousing, repairs, shipping and delivery etc. We have field sales manager who visit end users - i.e. photographers as well as dealers. I can assure you that we have talented and genuinely caring people in our organization and we have many very satisfied and loyal customers.

    You also state that prices in the US are like a "moving target". Well that moving target has been steadily headed in the same direction over the last few years - downwards. We will confirm prices this week at Photoplus Expo, this is a very busy week for us and I ask that a little patience is shown in communicating these prices to our US customers.

    If you are in the vicinity of NYC or are visiting at Photoplus Expo, please stop by our booth and meet more of our team!

    Best Wishes!
    Dave McRitchie

    [email protected]

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    I think many photographers who shoot to make their living, or part of their living, are feeling the effects of the economic downturn.

    So, it is nice to see that many of the MFD makers are lowering prices in some significant manner.

    All of the discussions concerning what individually works and what doesn't are fine points since any one of these systems will deliver the goods to meet 99% of the real world requirements.

    Whatever bugs us seems to be eventually addressed by the makers IF what we want isn't some isolated personal need.

    Beyond continuous improvement, I personally want only 2 things from Hasselblad. That Phocus corrections migrate with DNG transfers like they do with Tiffs, and that Hasselblad brings forth a FOCAL PLANE H BODY. I understand that there is no peripheral motivation for Hasselblad to engineer a focal plane H body, since they don't make a dime on people buying 200 series lenses. But 200 series lenses isn't the only reason. It most certainly seems to me that a LOT more people would consider the H system if that option were available. All it would do is increase the versatility of the system.

    Like Guy, myself and many others, we made our selection based on a number of factors, and while we talk about this and that on forums, when the "rubber meets the road" this stuff has to deliver.
    My good old Hassey H stuff does that day-in and day-out ... and I like that they are more DSLR like, because I am under more pressure to deliver than ever before. Pack shots one day, 8 hrs on location the next, rush through 40 product shots overnight because the parts have to be send back the next morning ... and that same morning head out for another 8 location shoot ... and so on. Nothing that most of these sytems can't do ... but I KNOW this one can and does.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Look guys like Marc it is when the rubber hits the road and from what i have seen the Sinar system did not deliver that. I seen it in person and it still bugs me. Granted it was a isolated case but the bottom line it did not work at the time and the setup was not to my liking at all with hardware and the software. I am not going to fight a system to get something to work. Put all the spin you want on it but my eyes don't lie.

    BTW I am NOT influenced by anyone ever so please let's get that out of the way. I liked the Broncolor lighting and always have but mere mortals can't afford it either. The Sinar camera's especially the Hy6 i did not like the button layout at all and in a rush i am sure i would wind up hitting something I should not. Some folks like the setup and i completely respect that but I do not go bashing it every second on the forums if ever, so please do not put me in that league of whiners.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  17. #17
    thsinar
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Guy,

    I beg you to stop claiming that the Sinar Hy6 system did not work: you very well know what in particular did not work and why it did not work. We had settled this particular issue and all was explained and understandable, from a user standpoint. Now you come again with the very same case.

    It saddens me to read at any possible occasion the same and the same again.
    I can with the best will not refrain from reacting and correct this false claim.


    You can dislike the camera, nothing against this, but don't say that it does not work: IT DOES.

    And by the way: that was not the question at all, respectively the response from Dave or myself. We did correct another claim you made, about Sinar support in the USA being limited.

    Isn't it a bit weird to bring up this now?

    Then: nobody mentions that you are influenced by somebody, only you bringing this up.

    EDITED for addendum: if you mean "influenced by some claiming that the USA support is limited", then I wish you to answer my question. Do you have any particular case where the USA support was not up to the task? That was actually my question, and you did not answer it. Claims need facts in relation with the claim.

    Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Look guys like Marc it is when the rubber hits the road and from what i have seen the Sinar system did not deliver that. I seen it in person and it still bugs me. Granted it was a isolated case but the bottom line it did not work at the time and the setup was not to my liking at all with hardware and the software. I am not going to fight a system to get something to work. Put all the spin you want on it but my eyes don't lie.

    BTW I am NOT influenced by anyone ever so please let's get that out of the way. I liked the Broncolor lighting and always have but mere mortals can't afford it either. The Sinar camera's especially the Hy6 i did not like the button layout at all and in a rush i am sure i would wind up hitting something I should not. Some folks like the setup and i completely respect that but I do not go bashing it every second on the forums if ever, so please do not put me in that league of whiners.
    Last edited by thsinar; 22nd October 2008 at 07:06.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    I am going to walk away from this conversation because i am really tried of hearing the spin on all of this. You think whatever you want, I can see first hand and my impressions . End of story
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Thierry i do not have to justify anything I say to you or anyone. I do not need to make it right . These are my impressions and exactly what they are. i see very little support outside that NJ office and a system that 8 people could not figure out how to work on location. You want to call that user error than be my guest. But i will not a buy a Sinar camera no matter how good it is or not. I will NOT go into the details of why i feel this way. Sorry i am not going to make your product sound good to you in my eyes or anyone elses. I respect the folks that shoot it but it does nothing for me and that is it. I will not go into the details on my forum on your product, so take my comments at face value. I have enough bad stuff going on today that i do not need to discuss this any further. if you want to e-mail me than fine.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Thierry, my .02 on Sinar's excellent swervice...

    On the Florida lighting workshop, I personlly asked the rep two times for prices on a BronColor Mobil package. I never got an answer. After we got home, I then sent him an email and asked him for a quote. No response. He made a comment in the forums on lighting, and I asked him directly in that thread for pricing and again never got a response. Moreover, I know for certain two other members of that workshop were interested in a set of Mobil's, and they never got a response either. So all in all, probably 4 or 5 packs not even with the slightest attempt of being sold...

    So I finally gave up and bought an Elinchrom system. And so did the other two. So the score from that one was Elinchrom 6, Broncolor ZERO.

    I fully respect that selling a few mobil packs to a single shooter is probably not worth this reps time, and he'd much rather fill a studio order. But I think it certainly reflects a lack of commitment at the level of "individual pro shooter", and probably explains why more of use Hassy or Phase than Sinar...

    Best,
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Announcement:

    Folks, Thierry requested his account on GetDPI be deleted. We just wanted you to know it was not our idea, but his, and we accommodated that request.

    We now return you to your normal programming.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Guy and Jack, what was it about the Hy6 which was hard to figure out?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Arrrgh, that's disconcerting. I value a variety of points of view and Thierry's is of value to me. The he-said, he-said minutia aside and viewing this from a big-picture perspective, I'd hate to see this forum become too one-sided in any brand's favor. Sinar needs to have a foot-hold on the forum. The company offers an excellent product that deserves representation. Don't worry, we're all fairly sophisticated and read between the lines when disagreements occur within the extended family that is GetDPI.

    My .02 is that Theirry, Sinar and GetDPI lose by Theirry leaving.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Guy and Jack, what was it about the Hy6 which was hard to figure out?

    The button system to the side to me was way to touchy and if you hit a button in the very slightest while looking into the waist level finder i wind up hitting the wrong thing. I just like other folks i have talked to think it is just a little finicky and when on pressure as i said bound to make a screw up. This is just not a simple camera and the engineering is nice but from a shooters seat maybe over engineered
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    Arrrgh, that's disconcerting. I value a variety of points of view and Thierry's is of value to me. The he-said, he-said minutia aside and viewing this from a big-picture perspective, I'd hate to see this forum become too one-sided in any brand's favor. Sinar needs to have a foot-hold on the forum. The company offers an excellent product that deserves representation. Don't worry, we're all fairly sophisticated and read between the lines when disagreements occur within the extended family that is GetDPI.

    My .02 is that Theirry, Sinar and GetDPI lose by Theirry leaving.
    He is welcome back at anytime as long as he follows the privacy rules of the PM system.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post

    I fully respect that selling a few mobil packs to a single shooter is probably not worth this reps time, and he'd much rather fill a studio order.
    That is probably correct, and that is why you have a dealer network. Rep calls dealer and says "How would you like to make a quick sale?", dealer calls you and says the rep sent him, everyone is happy.

    Regarding Thierry leaving, honestly I think that was a good idea. I have spent the vast majority of my career in public relations and the last couple years focused on building brands through conversational media. When you reach the point of defending your company in such a way that you diminish an already fragile brand, doing nothing is an improvement. I have nothing at all against Sinar or Thierry, but his online demeanor on this and other forums has left a bitter taste in my mouth for Sinar. If I have a choice of working with him or one of the people from Capture Integration, the choice is easy regardless of the product. That said, the Sinar e54 is still very attractive to me.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Thanks for the note, Guy.

    Kurt

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    I am a Sinar user, but I can definitely see both sides of this argument...both seem to have some valid points. I will say that before I purchased a Sinar camera, I experienced the "no contact" aspect of their service in the US. I had inquired about their demo backs they had posted on their website, and no one ever called me back. That said, I experienced superb service from Rollei Hensel Service (who service the 6008 series lenses that the Hy6 uses). In buying the camera and back, I went through Jack Strobel at Calumet. The experience was great -- he used to work for Sinar, so he is obviously very well plugged in there and he was able to answer basically all the questions I had and get everything organized through Sinar.

    With respect to the Hy6, opinions vary. I can see why Guy does not like the interface on the side. I actually quite like it and have not had any problems with it. In future iterations of it, I think many issues people have with it could be solved by making those detents stronger, or locking. Like any camera, you need to work with it a bit before you get truly familiar with it. The Hy6 may take a bit longer than some simpler cameras, but I must say that I think it is probably the best medium format camera I have used, and I have used pretty much all the major ones. The ergonomics are better than any medium format camera I have used.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Locking the buttons or stronger detents would be very much welcome. It was just to easy to make a mistake and hit the wrong thing by accident.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    Thanks for the note, Guy.

    Kurt
    You are more than welcome. As you know i will not air out private conversations ever in public that happens between members and management. Not sure i can say the same as i have seen this morning with 1/8th of the conversation from others in the PM system. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    That is probably correct, and that is why you have a dealer network. Rep calls dealer and says "How would you like to make a quick sale?", dealer calls you and says the rep sent him, everyone is happy.

    Regarding Thierry leaving, honestly I think that was a good idea. I have spent the vast majority of my career in public relations and the last couple years focused on building brands through conversational media. When you reach the point of defending your company in such a way that you diminish an already fragile brand, doing nothing is an improvement. I have nothing at all against Sinar or Thierry, but his online demeanor on this and other forums has left a bitter taste in my mouth for Sinar. If I have a choice of working with him or one of the people from Capture Integration, the choice is easy regardless of the product. That said, the Sinar e54 is still very attractive to me.
    Bill,
    Not sure what you are saying here. In my personal perspective, I think Thierry brought a lot to this forum. He seemed to painstakingly answer each question and did try to keep the record straight on things. That is not always easy to do when all the facts are not known to everyone and all the discussions are not on the table all the time. That is the nature of the online forum clashing with personalities and styles of communication. That being said, to suggest Sinar is "an already fragile brand" seems a bit out of place, but it is your opinion and you are entitled to it personally and publicly on forums like this, within the bounds of the forum rules.

    Not looking to beat this more than it has been already. I do not own Sinar gear, but have been seriously considering it, along with Hasselblad and hopefully Leica S2. It has been around for a long time, just not as popular in the US as some other brands. That does not mean it is a fragile brand, or that the equipment sucks. People choose things for different reasons, and most of the folks on this forum have been very open, honest and tolerant of the meanderings of some discussions. That is one of the things that makes this forum much more interesting to participate in than some others. Trashing a person's demeanor just seems out of place. Nobody can know the other person's demeanor. Tone of discussion is a different matter, and personalities come into play. Thierry has, from all that I have read, been very systematical in his approach, keeping issues separated, trying to keep to the facts, yet also understanding of different needs and interests. This latest exchange on issues that many, myself included, thought had been put to bed was discomforting to read. I am not taking and sides here, as I recall much of the issues and claims from my own reading, and was actually happy to see that dust settled. Apparently not for some others, so it was resurrected and now gets hung with a mantle of "demeanor". Let folks fight that out over a beer or glass of wine someplace else. Many come here to share information, ideas, learn about gear, etc. Soap operas are for pulp paperbacks and TV shows.

    Sorry for the rant to others here. I would love to see this whole thing put to bed, let tempers cool, and then get back to far more interesting discussions over gear, methods, results, etc.

    Thanks for all of your time, folks.

    LJ

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    IMO, there are times when the chemistry just isn't right.

    Guy and Jack have set up a good photographer's forum for the exchange of information and experiences ... that needs to remain open and candid about those experiences.
    If there is mis-information, then counter it in a non-personal manner with better information ... clean and simple.

    Frankly, I do not need PMs sent to me from any rep trying to forward some personal agenda regardless of Brand. When I want that, I'll ask for it.

    I do enjoy multiple points of view from all the makers concerning their brands ... so if it isn't one Sinar representitive then get another one to contribute ... if the service network is so good, that shouldn't be a problem ... right?

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    IMO, there are times when the chemistry just isn't right.

    Guy and Jack have set up a good photographer's forum for the exchange of information and experiences ... that needs to remain open and candid about those experiences.
    If there is mis-information, then counter it in a non-personal manner with better information ... clean and simple.

    Frankly, I do not need PMs sent to me from any rep trying to forward some personal agenda regardless of Brand. When I want that, I'll ask for it.

    I do enjoy multiple points of view from all the makers concerning their brands ... so if it isn't one Sinar representitive then get another one to contribute ... if the service network is so good, that shouldn't be a problem ... right?
    Marc,
    I got one also and immediately had one of those moments. I agree with you about the value of this forum, as I have mentioned. I also agree with you about approaching disagreements in a "non-personal manner". Finally, I agree with you about the "chemistry" part, which is the part that I found to be the more disturbing of things, but that is the nature of a global "community" like this forum.

    So, like you, I would love to see information exchanged again, ideas posited, experiences and results shared again, in a professional and collegial manner, and for all of us to get past the personal crap that we all have and may bring to things

    LJ

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Guy, which buttons do you mean, the settings on the left, or the ones on the grip.

    I also understood that there was something about the system which was difficult to understand, not just loose buttons?

    ---

    Guy, I understand that you and Thierry got off on the wrong foot, but as a photographer I value both sides of the equation, and I would hope that there was some way to solve this. I know that you (*cough* FM *cough* LL) get very upset, the latin blood in you, but the other side of the equation would be the forgiveness part, and I don't think that Thierry was ever trying to make you look bad, just trying to defend the Sinar system in a way that others could understand exactly the limitations of the system, and consider it on a personal level, rather than just the "I hate it" vs. "it is perfect" kinda threads (exaggerating both sides here).

    Anyway, like LL, it is nice to see more representatives here. One disadvantage Thierry has over others is that he (informally) represents the company, but a lot of the criticism has to do with the American branch/distributor, which is really not something he can change.

    The equipment itself is clearly not beyond criticism, but I think that a good discussion about the pros and cons should be allowed. The history between you (Guy) and Thierry really should take the back seat, and the facts should get out. Both sides of the discussion should be considered by potential customers, and anyway, maybe Sinar will listen to your critique and stiffen up the detents a bit.

    All IMO.
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    That is probably correct, and that is why you have a dealer network. Rep calls dealer and says "How would you like to make a quick sale?", dealer calls you and says the rep sent him, everyone is happy.

    Regarding Thierry leaving, honestly I think that was a good idea. I have spent the vast majority of my career in public relations and the last couple years focused on building brands through conversational media. When you reach the point of defending your company in such a way that you diminish an already fragile brand, doing nothing is an improvement. I have nothing at all against Sinar or Thierry, but his online demeanor on this and other forums has left a bitter taste in my mouth for Sinar. If I have a choice of working with him or one of the people from Capture Integration, the choice is easy regardless of the product. That said, the Sinar e54 is still very attractive to me.
    I concur with Bill.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Guy, which buttons do you mean, the settings on the left, or the ones on the grip.

    I also understood that there was something about the system which was difficult to understand, not just loose buttons?

    ---

    Guy, I understand that you and Thierry got off on the wrong foot, but as a photographer I value both sides of the equation, and I would hope that there was some way to solve this. I know that you (*cough* FM *cough* LL) get very upset, the latin blood in you, but the other side of the equation would be the forgiveness part, and I don't think that Thierry was ever trying to make you look bad, just trying to defend the Sinar system in a way that others could understand exactly the limitations of the system, and consider it on a personal level, rather than just the "I hate it" vs. "it is perfect" kinda threads (exaggerating both sides here).

    Anyway, like LL, it is nice to see more representatives here. One disadvantage Thierry has over others is that he (informally) represents the company, but a lot of the criticism has to do with the American branch/distributor, which is really not something he can change.

    The equipment itself is clearly not beyond criticism, but I think that a good discussion about the pros and cons should be allowed. The history between you (Guy) and Thierry really should take the back seat, and the facts should get out. Both sides of the discussion should be considered by potential customers, and anyway, maybe Sinar will listen to your critique and stiffen up the detents a bit.

    All IMO.

    Well i wrote this and sat on it all day and frankly i think i will address this because it needs to be said and i am not a nut case like some may think i am after this mornings before my espresso's forum issues. But after using our system as a avenue to spread venom to our members is completely uncalled for and completely unprofessional. Carsten I answer this because you are asking a direct question. But i want to boldly point something out here , never insist on a answer from anyone. We are here on our own free will and need not answer to anyone on your opinion. This is what set me on fire is not painting someone in a corner for a answer, when clearly i did not want to give one to begin with for reasons of my own and not to hurt or turn anyone from making any future purchases because of my opinion on something. That is not my style to bash any product , i just don't talk about it or get involved in any conversation about any product i do not like. That is my way and my belief. Less said the better.


    Well bottom line is this you never insist an answer from anyone that does not want to give one. I did not want to comment on the Sinar system from what i have seen myself with my own eyes. I did not want my negaitve impressions to be viewed in public. i should not have to answer these type of things and hurt the reputation of a well known company. I did not want do that, you do not call anyone on the carpet and demand a answer unless you are ready to get an honest one. obviously you all got a piece of my e-mail from him in a PM . What you did not get was the other 7/8ths of the conversation. First off it was completely un professional and inappropriate for anyone to send these private conversations to members of the forum. But as a company representative of Sinar to do that is completely wrong and he should answer to his superiors in behaving like that and completely unprofessional. Jack and I take extreme exception to his behavior or anyone that represents a company here to act in that manner and use our PM system in this fashion, it's flat out wrong no excuses. My answers are not very pleasing on what i think of the Sinar system i worked with in Puerto Rico, and only when mentioned on this forum did anyone get off there butt and react to get the back and camera working for this member. Bottom line it would not work with several users trying to figure it out and yes some may have been user error but 150 years of Professional experience standing around trying to get my workshop member up and shooting was not a fun. At the same time within 2 minutes everyone that touched a Phase system was up and running without fail. Phase one sold 8 system at the end of this workshop and Sinar 0. Now either everyone of us on this workshop have no idea on what we are doing or something is with the Sinar system is not able to work very easily or something wrong with the system. The LCD on this back looked like it came off a P&S camera. It was horrendous and off color. So now that i said this does anyone want to run out and buy a Sinar. Not really . Reason i did not want to answer and the issue also in Ft Lauderdale which i do not even want to get into. So all the stuff i wanted to avoid comes out now and only because he would not take my advice. Also let me bring up another point, i have noticed an odd color cast in many normal images coming off these Sinar backs lately and i don't know what exactly this is but since i am letting it out there, it looks like a shifted image that need color cast correction so they maybe have to deal with that one also.

    Hopefully this ends this saga but after using our PM system in a unauthorized way he is not welcome back without a public apology but the door is wide open for another representative from Sinar. I think having a balance here is good for the members and no matter what it is about the members here and you folks come first. But these folks are guests of this forum and they need to conduct themselves in the manner fit for our members, no exceptions.

    At this point I will not answer anymore questions on this in public. Again less said the better . If you want to continue on the Sinar system please start a thread. It is a nice system but to me one that will not work for me the way it is setup and i will be happy to talk about that elsewhere on the forum if folks care to ask. If you have a personal question to ask me than please use the PM system and i will try and answer any questions in private where they stay and not be posted in PM's worldwide. To say i am very upset that he used our own system to spread venom is a understatement and our members here should never be exposed to this behavior. Thank you for your time and i apologize for all that happened this morning that you where disturbed in your privacy of the PM system. Thanks Guy Mancuso
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    so if it isn't one Sinar representitive then get another one to contribute ... if the service network is so good, that shouldn't be a problem ... right?
    Excellent point Marc!

    Maybe we should post a "Help Wanted" ad in the Commercial Vendor's forum?


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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Does this mean we can finaly put this thing to bed?

    don
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    You bet Don! As far as I'm concerned, it's in bed as soon as somebody asks me to deactivate their account.
    They ask, I deliver, story over.
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    You bet Don! As far as I'm concerned, it's in bed as soon as somebody asks me to deactivate their account.
    They ask, I deliver, story over.
    Jack, is there some way to do it that leaves Thierry's previous posts intact? I have been reading some older threads, and some are completely disjointed now, and the page numbering is off...
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Personally, I think what turns adult conversations into debates, even heated arguments, are empirical declarative claims of superiority in support of purchase choice. By doing so, intended or not, it discounts the choices of others as if they were dolts for selecting something other than the "best MF camera."

    Personally, I did not find the Hy6 to be the "best" anything, and I have pretty much used all the major systems also. For certain criteria it may fit someone's needs better, but for others it may not. I found it clumsy and slow for my personal way of shooting, where for others it may fit them like a glove. If you are a shooter in need of higher shutter speeds, then it is far from the best MF system at all.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Jack, is there some way to do it that leaves Thierry's previous posts intact? I have been reading some older threads, and some are completely disjointed now, and the page numbering is off...
    Ouch! If the process of removing Thierry's account (at his request) has also removed all of his posts, then there is an unfortunate loss of information that would be useful to people trying to understand these systems. I stumbled upon such a thread, so it appears that, in fact, this is the case at least for the one thread I was reading.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    By the way, this very thread is one of the problem threads. Note that it says there are three pages, but only the first two are accessible? Somewhere in the system, Thierry's posts are still being counted, although not displayed.

    [EDIT] and of course, the act of posting this caused the third page to be created. Ack. There are others, however. Try searching for "Sinar 54 LV" and go to some of the last pages in those threads.
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    I was just noticing this last night. The "show your MF work" thread was doing the same thing.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    I will have Jack check this out, there was a version update 2 nights ago and some things go whacky sometines
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Personally, I think what turns adult conversations into debates, even heated arguments, are empirical declarative claims of superiority in support of purchase choice. By doing so, intended or not, it discounts the choices of others as if they were dolts for selecting something other than the "best MF camera."

    Personally, I did not find the Hy6 to be the "best" anything, and I have pretty much used all the major systems also. For certain criteria it may fit someone's needs better, but for others it may not. I found it clumsy and slow for my personal way of shooting, where for others it may fit them like a glove. If you are a shooter in need of higher shutter speeds, then it is far from the best MF system at all.
    It did not work for me very well at all. I am much more tuned to the Phase , Hassy and even the Contax body. Too many years with a SLR type camera
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Jack, is there some way to do it that leaves Thierry's previous posts intact? I have been reading some older threads, and some are completely disjointed now, and the page numbering is off...
    Carsten, yes there certainly is. However in addition to demanding we deactivate his membership, Thierry requested we remove all of his posts. The most efficient way for me to accommodate that was to temporarily "hide" them, just in case he cools off and has a change of heart then decides he to come back. If I do a hard delete of his posts then the page numbering will correct itself, but I am trying to avoid that for now.

    OTOH, we do technically own the posts, so I guess I could just unhide them regardless of what his request was... He would however then appear as "banned" or "guest" depending on how I more permanently de-activated his account. Give me some time to noodle on this, trying to accommodate everybody's best interests here. Feedback welcome.

    EDIT UPDATE: Thierry has requested his account be closed. His wishes have been complied with.

    Thanks for your patience,
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Personally, I think what turns adult conversations into debates, even heated arguments, are empirical declarative claims of superiority in support of purchase choice. By doing so, intended or not, it discounts the choices of others as if they were dolts for selecting something other than the "best MF camera."

    Personally, I did not find the Hy6 to be the "best" anything, and I have pretty much used all the major systems also. For certain criteria it may fit someone's needs better, but for others it may not. I found it clumsy and slow for my personal way of shooting, where for others it may fit them like a glove. If you are a shooter in need of higher shutter speeds, then it is far from the best MF system at all.
    Marc,

    As usual, all I can say is perfectly stated -- on both accounts!

    ,
    Jack
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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Speaking of Mamiya , got a e-mail from Phase One this morning advertising the P30 plus with Body and 80 mm lens for 19,900.00. Obviously this is the posted number from Phase One. Check with dealer on what you actually write the check for. LOL

    I think in all these systems the posted price is never realized and less when you actually write the check. It's nice to see the prices but I think it is fair to say that is not what you pay with any of them. Good to have the ballpark numbers though
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Mamiya Announces New MF Digital Camera System

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Speaking of Mamiya , got a e-mail from Phase One this morning advertising the P30 plus with Body and 80 mm lens for 19,900.00. Obviously this is the posted number from Phase One. Check with dealer on what you actually write the check for. LOL

    I think in all these systems the posted price is never realized and less when you actually write the check. It's nice to see the prices but I think it is fair to say that is not what you pay with any of them. Good to have the ballpark numbers though
    FYI though please keep in mind that with all of these newer discounted advertised prices the manufacturers are taking away from the margins that the dealers usually receive.

    When speaking with one of the marketing guys from one of the companies that recently dropped MAP prices he said that people were getting discounts already, and that all the promos they were doing and trade ins were costing money so now there is a one price policy, of course at the sacrificing of margins on the dealer end.

    As a reseller this puts us in a precarious position because some of that margin actually go to paying our staff to support these products. Having technical experts on staff is not cheap. Yes the market needs to grow, but the manufactures need to be careful because who will provide the support if there is no money to subsidize it. Most if not all offer support do not directly support the end users, they rely on the channel (people like us). I guess it is expected when you purchase a DSLR over the counter that there will be limited support, plus at those prices people may buy a spare.

    So buyer beware at the price point you purchase a system because price is only one component.

    I can only speak for myself, but I want to be in business to support our end-users in the future and there has to be a business model to sustain it.

    When and were we can discount we will.....

    I hope you all understand.

    L
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