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Thread: Best format for architecture

  1. #1
    Justalex
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    Best format for architecture

    Hi all. Long time viewer first time poster.

    I've been shooting interiors with a H3DII 22 for the last 5 years. It has performed well with the right balance of speed and IQ.

    I'm now shooting more architecture and looking for something wider than the blad 28mm with movements.

    I've tried the Cambo with 28mm super digitar on a P45+. Incredible quality but much slower than the blad or 35mm. LCCs are also a pain as well as the increased noise at the edge of frame

    I've also played with the Canon and TSE lens. 17mm TSE is wider than the 28mm super digitar and doesn't require LCCs. Very user friendly but with too much CA and not sharp enough.

    MF dslr - user friendly but not wide enough
    35mm dslr - very wide and user friendly but not sharp enough
    Tech camera - incredible IQ but too slow and surprisingly not as wide as Canons 17mm TSE.

    Anyone have a solution?

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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Which camera did you use with the Canon 17 TSE?

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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Is it for business or hobby?

    I know personally one of the local photographer Steve Whittake. He is one of the Director of ASMP.

    In film days, he was using 4x5, and now he is using Canon 1Ds MK III and 3 TS lenses.

    According to him, MFDB gives better IQ, but his clients are not willing to pay extra for better IQ. Usage of his photographs are for magazines, corporate brochures and 24x30 prints.

  4. #4
    Subscriber Member kit laughlin's Avatar
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    And the wonderful thing about Canon's TS lenses is the independent axes... I really disliked the Nikon approach to this.

    If I were in this market these days, I'd be using whichever Canon body gave you the best Live View interface; IMHO, only Live View at 100% gives you the focussing accuracy you need for getting tilt right. I used Nikon's 24 TS with the axes aligned for my interior work, on a D3 and/or D700, as well as the 14–24/2.8. Clients liked the results (and like the reference to Steve W., above) my work only appeared in architect's portfolios, web site, and brochures, and the results held up well. I would think one of the latest Canon bodies plus their TS lenses would be an excellent start.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    Is it for business or hobby?

    I know personally one of the local photographer Steve Whittake. He is one of the Director of ASMP.

    In film days, he was using 4x5, and now he is using Canon 1Ds MK III and 3 TS lenses.

    According to him, MFDB gives better IQ, but his clients are not willing to pay extra for better IQ. Usage of his photographs are for magazines, corporate brochures and 24x30 prints.

    Sorry thats a cop out. Its not always about what the client is willing to pay for but about you as the shooter want to give your client that makes you more valuable than anyone else to that client.

    Sorry that really is not a good approach. You don't want to shoot it or invest in it than that is fine but I don't buy the client is not willing to pay for it, mine don't either. I have clients for over 20 years. Its about providing the absolute best you can provide , time , talent and image above all else. This is about me and what I want to deliver.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sorry thats a cop out. Its not always about what the client is willing to pay for but about you as the shooter want to give your client that makes you more valuable than anyone else to that client.

    Sorry that really is not a good approach. You don't want to shoot it or invest in it than that is fine but I don't buy the client is not willing to pay for it, mine don't either. I have clients for over 20 years. Its about providing the absolute best you can provide , time , talent and image above all else. This is about me and what I want to deliver.
    LOL! Sure, then go for IQ180! Why did you go back to IQ140?

  7. #7
    ssanacore
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    I've been shooting architecture for many years as a profession and usually shoot with a Canon 1Ds Mk3 or 5dMk 2 with the new Canon 17mm and 24mm shift lenses. I have found those lenses to be superb. My 17mm TSE is on par with my Leica 19 at some f-stops.

    I have also used a P65 Cambo MF tech camera on come jobs and found it very simple with outstanding quality. I almost always shoot tethered when shooting architecture, so I found the Phase-cambo tech camera just as quick as my Canon to set up and shoot. LCC's were a bit of pain until it became a habit.

    Maybe you have a defective 17mm TSE? But nothing beats a MF tech camera for quality that I have seen.

  8. #8
    ssanacore
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sorry thats a cop out. Its not always about what the client is willing to pay for but about you as the shooter want to give your client that makes you more valuable than anyone else to that client.

    Sorry that really is not a good approach. You don't want to shoot it or invest in it than that is fine but I don't buy the client is not willing to pay for it, mine don't either. I have clients for over 20 years. Its about providing the absolute best you can provide , time , talent and image above all else. This is about me and what I want to deliver.
    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    LOL! Sure, then go for IQ180! Why did you go back to IQ140?
    I agree 100% with you Guy. I was thinking the same thing when I read that. If we would only use what some clients were willing to pay for, we would probably eventually be using our iPhones :-)

    I base my gear on what provides the best solution for the shoot and what I can be proud of, not who pays for what.

  9. #9
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    LOL! Sure, then go for IQ180! Why did you go back to IQ140?
    Sorry that is a terrible come back response. I won't diginify that with a answer either. I already answered this and not going to repeat myself. But I will say this. You bought a 160 but seem to hate being a owner. Sell it if it is not what you want. I really don't understand why people just keep knocking down the format. It's a tool if it don't work for you you get another tool. I never bitch about gear. If it don't work for me I sell it or if I need something more important I'll sell one for the other. I got ice in my veins on this. Buy what works forget what don't.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  10. #10
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    BTW I only say this as a logical comment and not meant to be snide in anyway. I buy by deductive logic if it makes sense to my needs I buy if it dont I'll find something else that does.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Guy, it is nothing to do with the format or my IQ160.

    In my post, my first line was "Is it for business or hobby?"

    My second point was Steve Whittak also admitted that MFDB gives better IQ for architecture photography. However it didn't make business sense for him to invest him into MFDB. That was his personal business decision. He didn't ask me to write it here, but I thought I will just share it here.

    Now you have started giving advice whether that is good approach or bad approach, which was not required, though I understand you are entitled for your opinion. You could have simply say what you do, period!

    Steve Whittak is also very well respected in the business community, client like Boeing under his belt, organizing photographer to fight for copyright acts in the Congress and teaches aspiring photographers how to do business. His suggestions can't be ignored as well.

    Thanks,

    Subrata
    Last edited by Guy Mancuso; 26th May 2012 at 12:03. Reason: Admin edit comment not within our rules

  12. #12
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Justalex View Post

    Tech camera - incredible IQ but too slow and surprisingly not as wide as Canons 17mm TSE.

    Anyone have a solution?
    True that it is a slower workprocess, but the results are worth the effort. When I need wider than a straight shot with the 28 super-digitar, I make a two image vertical flatstitch - 14mm left & right to produce a veeery wide interior with a standard aspect ratio. Since I work with the small 22mp Aptus ii 5, there is little to no issues with colourcasts even with this much shift.

    To me everything boils down to final IQ, if that means slow working - so be it.
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

  13. #13
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    I'm totally fine with the business or personal decision to buy or not. I do the same but to word it like my clients won't pay for it like you did is simply a cop out statement. Buying 3 d4 Profoto systems is not a good business decision for me as well, those comments I totally respect it's ones where it's a cop out comment that gets on my neves and is just wrong to have that attitude. This is not about clients always but it is about you as the photographer and how or what you want to give your clients and what tool you think maybe best for that client. Not that they can't pay for it and I'm sure Steve given what I just said would agree. We all have to make the best dollar for dollar ROI on our investments as Pros and I get that totally but weather a client pays for it or not is just bad thinking. End of day we are our own clients and I do this for me first and foremost.


    To best answer the question at hand a tech cam would be my first choice and a very good reason I have one myself. It is what I would want to shoot. Regardless of anything else to me it is the best tool for the job.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm totally fine with the business or personal decision to buy or not. I do the same but to word it like my clients won't pay for it like you did is simply a cop out statement. Buying 3 d4 Profoto systems is not a good business decision for me as well, those comments I totally respect it's ones where it's a cop out comment that gets on my neves and is just wrong to have that attitude. This is not about clients always but it is about you as the photographer and how or what you want to give your clients and what tool you think maybe best for that client. Not that they can't pay for it and I'm sure Steve given what I just said would agree. We all have to make the best dollar for dollar ROI on our investments as Pros and I get that totally but weather a client pays for it or not is just bad thinking. End of day we are our own clients and I do this for me first and foremost.

    To best answer the question at hand a tech cam would be my first choice and a very good reason I have one myself. It is what I would want to shoot. Regardless of anything else to me it is the best tool for the job.
    I'm sure Pros can decide what is best for their "business", and not for their personal pleasure only. Also many time artistic quality overwrites technical quality.

    In Landscape photography, I admire two contemporary photographers:

    Charles Crammer who uses IQ180 & Phase One DF (no technical camera).

    Michael Frye uses Canon 1Ds MK II (unless he has upgraded it since I met him last), and just two lenses, probably 17-40 L & 70-200 L.

    They both sell their prints through Ansel Adam Gallery. People buy their prints because not what camera they use, but for their artistic vision.

    Similarly for a Wedding Photographer / Portrait Photographer, it will not make much sense to invest in MFDB if their client is buying only 8"x10" and not large wall portraits.

    I truly believe that clients deserves the quality that they are willing to pay for. I'm also aware of how corporate America is taking advantages of individual photographers. Photographers need not to do the charity to help the camera manufacturers.

    When you are buying for business, you need to be rational, and pay attentions to your revenue, expense and profit, as your living depends on that. Just what you personally do is not necessarily be the best business practice. When you buy for pure personal pleasure, it's a different game.

    This has nothing to do with whether I love or hate my IQ160.

    How to run the business being taught in PPA & ASMP. Let's continue to discuss in GetDPI what's technically best.

    I'm glad finally we are close with little disagreement.
    Last edited by subrata1965; 26th May 2012 at 14:17. Reason: Edited to add additional comemnts

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    What about Iq180 on a Hart Blui camera using a TSE17mm lens -

    Hartblei Home

    High image quality
    Extremely wide field of view
    Tilt / shift movements
    No need for LCC

    Looks like it is ticking a fair few of the boxes.

    mal

    I dont own one but sure have thought of buying one of these camera bodies to run with my IQ180.

    Mal

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    Re: Best format for architecture

    An EBONY SW45, It's compact and set square, which saves a lot of time.
    I use a A SUPER-SYMMAR XL 110 most of the time.
    Otherwise,
    A 60mm Macro Nikkor on a Nikon (yes, yes), a professional stitching program, and a lightweight QT head. The longer lens give you as much detail as LF. You can sort the perspective out in the stitch. Example here.
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Fuji GX680 with a 50mm lens and a stitch back MFDB adapter.

    It gives you Double the file size, tilt shift and a 6x8cm capture area.

    It's inexpensive and you can get higher than IQ180 quality with an IQ140 or P45+ or P65+

    Kapture Group Digital Back Adapters & High-Speed Photographic Solutions

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    Re: Best format for architecture

    I've been shooting hotels and resorts for almost 30 years, first with film and Nikon and then with a full frame digital Sony a900 and Zeiss glass.

    Nobody complained about image quality and the fact that I had to correct perspective in post was never even mentioned. Everyone was happy, except me. Now I shoot with a Fuji GX680III and a Cambo RS, both with a P45+ back, using the Sony occasionally.

    Now I'm happy and I don't get paid a penny more, but that was never the point. I knew I could do better and so I did.
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sorry thats a cop out. Its not always about what the client is willing to pay for but about you as the shooter want to give your client that makes you more valuable than anyone else to that client.

    Sorry that really is not a good approach. You don't want to shoot it or invest in it than that is fine but I don't buy the client is not willing to pay for it, mine don't either. I have clients for over 20 years. Its about providing the absolute best you can provide , time , talent and image above all else. This is about me and what I want to deliver.
    There are many good photographers here, professional and amateur, but elsewhere I often think that amateurs work up to a standard, and pros work down to a price... or use whatever kit and technique will quickly and cost-effectively get the job done.

    My theory about coming out of retirement doing Medium Format Digital View camera photography is that to make any headway I will need to take pictures that could not be taken with a DSLR or point-and-shoot, and/or produce pictures that will look good printed big.
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    There are many good photographers here, professional and amateur, but elsewhere I often think that amateurs work up to a standard, and pros work down to a price... or use whatever kit and technique will quickly and cost-effectively get the job done.

    My theory about coming out of retirement doing Medium Format Digital View camera photography is that to make any headway I will need to take pictures that could not be taken with a DSLR or point-and-shoot, and/or produce pictures that will look good printed big.
    I'm on my way into retirement after many years of large format practice. My theory is that if it doesn't look good on DSLR, i won't look any better on 8x10. Both formats need structure, light and the hint of an idea but many of the tangible assets of large format can be mendaciously simulated with a DSLR.
    Shooting large format leaves you with the knowledge that you have done the right thing by working within the limitations of the historical medium. It's an intangible asset, but it sells.
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  21. #21
    Justalex
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    I shoot professionally and have used the TSE lenses on a 5dMkII

    I love the feel and quality of a tech camera but the speed of a 35mm. MF SHOULD be the perfect balance but there is no lens as wide as the TSE 17 that can be shifted. I owned a GX680 when I was still shooting film; the 50mm lens was beautiful but the 65mm had way too much distortion.

    I tried the TSE 45mm 2 days ago and it has unsatisfactory CA. Maybe Canon are working on a MkII.

    My clients don't notice the difference between 35mm and MF but I do and despite the fact that my clients won't pay me any more if I shoot on a tech camera, if there was a satisfactory solution I would buy it.

    Ideally the Blad would have shift lenses that are as wide as the TSEs.

    I've shot the same scene on a Cambo with a P45+ and Canon TSE 17mm. The file from the P45+ was unusable as Capture one could could not completely remove the colour cast. The Canon wasn't as sharp as I would have liked but it was the one I ultimately handed to the client.

    I've heard that in order to create a proper LCC your LCC file can't include the black outside the image circle.

    I'm looking around for an adapter plate so I can try my H3DII 22mp back on the Cambo. I'm curious to know a little more about your experiences Dan.

  22. #22
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Justalex View Post
    I'm looking around for an adapter plate so I can try my H3DII 22mp back on the Cambo. I'm curious to know a little more about your experiences Dan.
    I suppose that your back is comparable to mine, being 22mp backs. It works well to shift with most (all?) tech lenses and that suits my workflow great.

    I rarely need wider angle of view than a regular one-shot with the Super-Digitar 28, but on those rare occasions when I flatstich, it works splendid!
    I attach an example here...in this situation I was squasched up the wall and to get the 'feel' I wanted both the graphical element (designer chair) to the extreme right and the flower to the left just inside that room. I could not get this with a single shot, so this is a flatstitch 14mm left and 14mm right in vertical position.
    To complicate matters for the lens I, on top, introduced a 6mm fall at the very same time. Using the lens to the limit. Despite these movements, I have NO LCC at all!!! and look at the result

    Imho beats a 5Dii+17Tse every day of the week.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    FYI the 28mm SK or Rodie on a FF sensor is 18mm. On those sensor you can safely go 7mm either way.

    My IQ 140 is now 22mm but like Dan we can stitch for a wider view. I have not stitched or tested the IQ 140 since I got it Friday but my bet if Dan can go 14mm I would be pretty close to that
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Well- as Mal had already pointed to, the HCam-B1 can do 17+24mm with movements, no color cast/means no needed whiteshot , no need for a centerfilter, and - if you already have the 17 and 24mm TSE and a Back - youll get this at a fraction of the price of the others.

    here are some links to full res jpgs with 80 Mpix / HCam 17+24mm both on Leaf Aptus 12 and IQ180

    http://www.hcam.de/downloads/Leaf80M...non17mmTSE.jpg

    http://www.hcam.de/downloads/IQ180-17mmTSE-01.jpg

    http://www.hcam.de/downloads/IQ180-24mmTSE-02.jpg

    Greetings from Lindenberg
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    Justalex: I know the Canon 5D3 corrects for CA on certain lenses, but I don't think the TSE are on the list. I have the 24TSE myself, though not as wide, you can certainly stitch in post. I don't know if in your opinion it is sharp enough, but certainly sharper than my 24L II.

    Otherwise as most of the folks say here, there's probably no beating MFDB on a HCam with a Canon TSE, or MFDB alone!

  26. #26
    Justalex
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    I cant believe there's no LCC on your shot Dan. I'm increasingly stitching 2 shots (2 images shot vertically one shifted up and the other down) in order to get a square format.

    I don't need 80MP, I have trouble archiving all my work as it is but with 80MP I would have 4 times the archiving. Nor have my clients ever asked for more than 22MP.

    What I want is an IQ back with all it's bells and whistles but only 22mp so that I don't get the vignetting, colour casts or headache with archiving!

    Would love to see the Hartblei Stefan but I'll have to wait until I'm in Europe next.

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    Re: Best format for architecture

    The OP's question is much like any other question asking for a "best", be it best car, best engine, best powersaw, ect. etc. It begs the question, under what circumstances, given what parameters and for what purpose and outcome?
    In truth, there is no definitive answer to this question. All the answers posted are both correct and incorrect in different ways. You take from it what works for you.
    I make my living shooting architecture and construction in Europe, Asia and Australasia. I have been a photographer for many years and have lots of gear at my disposal. However, when it comes to architecture, my tool of choice is an IQ180 on an Alpa STC and I shoot over 80% of my work with an Alpa 23mm HR Alpagon (Rodie 23HR Digaron by another name).
    As I travel a lot and mostly shoot without an assistant, my gear has to be light and fast handling. I tried other tech cams and chose the Alpa because it suited my needs best.
    As to format, for me size is everything. Hence, I went full-frame as soon as I could when the P65+ arrived, then went to Aptus 12 and now the IQ180. If you are going to shift a lot, I suggest the 60MP sensors are better as they have much less lenscast at a given shift. For me, the extra pixels are more important due to the amount of adjustment I make in post. Some of my 60MP files were showing artefacts where my 80Mp files don't. Shooting architecture requires wides and my style requires particularly wide lenses that are still quick to deploy and able to be used hand-held in some situations. This negates all the scanning-type systems. Obviously the full sized sensors give me the largest field of view.
    If you shoot enough with it, the LCC workflow quickly becomes second nature.
    I for one, have never given a damn about what quality the client expects and is willing to pay for. My philosophy has always been to make the best images possible for me. That involves buying the best gear I can afford, learning from the best practitioners in my field, practicing and testing in all my spare time, seeking criticism of my work from people with the skills and experience to hold an opinion worth considering and constantly driving myself to improve and evolve. I believe that money is attracted to quality and so far, this has more or less borne out. In practice, my quality expectations are almost always going to be much higher than my clients, simply because of my training and experience. Why should I dumb-down my work because my client doesn't know better? My belief is that setting ones business up simply to meet client expectations is to set oneself up to be an also-ran. I seek to exceed my client expectations by as big a margin as I am capable of.
    In the end, the best format for architecture is the one you have in your hand, so ask lots of questions, do lots of testing and choose what suits YOU best.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com
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    Re: Best format for architecture

    I can recommend the 33MP Aptus 7II/Mamiya DM33 as it has decently large sensor area at superb price point with a very well proven sensor and it does produce lovely files. The jump from the 5 to the 7 isn't much price wise and Dan's work shows what is possible with the 5. If you like the Canon lens and a less fussy workflow, then Stefan's H Cam must surely be the only choice.

    So Aptus 7II and a H Cam.

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    Re: Best format for architecture

    As an architectural photographer, my clients are mostly developers, I'll toss my 2 cents in. I use Nikon bodies with the 24MM PC-E, the old 28 and 35 PC lenses. In a couple of instances, where shift is not necessary I have used the 14-24. The last shot, of the Carleton Hotel is NYC is an example of the 14-24. All the other shots are the 24 PC-EYes, the older PC lenses do have CA considerations but they are easily cured in post processing. I have found that with the wides tilt is mostly not necessary. My clients have always been very satisfied with the output, and I've made 36" prints with no issues. At one time I considered the tech cameras but the Nikon is much faster to work with and is is easily tethered to my Macbook.
    Last edited by aboudd; 5th August 2012 at 15:56.
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