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Thread: Price drops for Phase one backs....

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    They are pretty small, actually. Nor they do make 35mm dSLR, actually, but sub-35mm dSLR. Even in Japan they got only 7.5% share of market as of 2011. Across all the SLRs they got
    - worst AF (precision + speed)
    - worst ISO response (as in - iso is actuallys sub- for real iso response, about 75%)
    - worst stabilization (never got past ancient patents, Olympus and Minolta got way better performance there, comparing in-body stabs)
    Can you link to where that information in performance. Especially ISO where Pentax still has some of the best APS-C sensors, at least in reference to DoX Mark.

    BTW, Minolta has not been making cameras for about seven years. Are you saying Pentax is worse than a seven-year old Minolta 6MP DSLR?

    As far as AF speed and precision, I think you will find the 645D giving all the MFD cameras out there a run for their money. Can you even tune the AF in say a Mamiya to specific lenses? Multi-point AF?

    If it werent for samsung making clones and (receding) army of fans (specially in Eastern European countries, who had piles of m42 optics they like to reuse) who were waiting for 645 and still waiting on full frame 35mm - they'd be deader than dodo.

    So revolutionary they are not. But it was good of them to finally make good on 2 decades of promisses and finally make attempt on MF market.
    I understand the sales of the 645D have been very good. Certain their "attempt" has resulted in a modern MFD camera unlike their competitors that have done very little to update their models. In the MF world, the 645D is revolutionary, but that is maybe because of the low bar set by the competition.

    Naturally, Pentax was just sold to Ricoh and so we will have to see what that means. But at the time Ricoh announced that it was going to continue to pursue their MFD line.

    And while we are at it, perhaps we can compare the Pentax 645D ISO 1600 (unbinned) and multi-minute exposures with the MF competition.
    Last edited by Shashin; 2nd June 2012 at 10:03.

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    +1 for minions!
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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    +1 for minions!
    Minions with opinions!
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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    I can go along with Fred on the viewfinder issue, on the DF, if you're looking into it at any angle other that perfectly straight, forget it. Pain in the neck for us shooting on a copy table and trying to get accurate polarization.
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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    They are pretty small, actually.
    Ummm... compared to what? Olympus with only the E-5 left? Sony that seems to go all EVF now? Sigma? That leaves Nikon and Canon at the top before Pentax. I call that major. And when it comes to digital MF, there aren't many competitors either, so they're a major player there as well.

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Well I hate to break the news to you but the body indirectly has a lot to do with the bokeh.
    You see there is this thing on the front called a bayonet mount and electronic communication
    between lens and body...... so you can only mount compatible lenses if you want to maintain full functionality.

    The phase one lenses with the exception of the 150mm 2.8 IF are not particularly nice when it comes to bokeh. That said the 150mm 2.8 IF is really really good and I've said that before.

    I have also given praise where it is merited. One good thing about the Phase one body is that thanks to the focal plane shutter you can use some 3rd party lenses using adapters and well a older 645 lenses.
    Fred, you can even in principle use the Pentax 645 lenses, whose bokeh you love, on the Mamiya/Phase bodies! The difference of 7.57mm in the flange focal distance is enough to permit this, although I've yet to see someone make an adapter*. Naturally, there will only be manual focus operation and manual aperture control, but that works a-ok for me and many others with our M645 lenses.

    Ray

    * One perhaps unfair interpretation for the lack of an adapter is that there is no Pentax 645 lens that anyone would especially want to put on a Mamiya - i.e. for every P645 lens there's already an equally good Mamiya lens.

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Can you link to where that information in performance. Especially ISO where Pentax still has some of the best APS-C sensors, at least in reference to DoX Mark.
    you dont want to get me started on DoX, trust me

    It is not one of best sensors (unless we count all of them in one batch), i have shot on exact same scenes side by side with Pentax reporters for years, when i did event shoots while visiting Russia. I had very very good chance to compare results. It is just a sensor. More or less ok. Nothing super brilliant about it.

    Remark about ISO is based purely on number of situations (and considering i am doing quite a number of them every year - its more than couple of occasions) when i am doing workshops in Russia, and i would meter scene for students, explain how it all works, how and where histogram would go. And then out of group of 10-14 people i always have only poor soul with Pentax dSLR (different models) who gets scene underexposed by range of 0.7-1.5 Ev. After few years, i just give them fair warning, originally it was confusing as hell, b/c you get people with Nikons, Canons, Olympuses , Sony/Minoltas who are all fine.. So - my trust to that system went seriously down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    BTW, Minolta has not been making cameras for about seven years. Are you saying Pentax is worse than a seven-year old Minolta 6MP DSLR?
    yes. And results from Olympus E-1 from same age on iso 100 are better too.

    Sony inherited Minolta's stab, and they didnt do much to it. So it is essentually same tech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    As far as AF speed and precision, I think you will find the 645D giving all the MFD cameras out there a run for their money. Can you even tune the AF in say a Mamiya to specific lenses? Multi-point AF?
    where exactly did i said anything about AF on 645D?


    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    And while we are at it, perhaps we can compare the Pentax 645D ISO 1600 (unbinned) and multi-minute exposures with the MF competition.
    Why? I personally couldnt care less for iso 1600 (and Live View for that matter, or video). Give me GOOD iso 25/50/100/400 and leaf shutter.

    I.e i am not bashing Pentax. I am just saying that dSLR sub-35mm Pentax is not something i would ever consider as a "thing".

    I am glad them delivered on 645 that has been in blue prints for so many years and people yearned for it. I am glad that there is allegedly decent AF system and some good quality - it makes other MF manufacturers to act. And i dont mind price reductions that would come from this and/or technology upgrades/exchanges (except for video!) .

    But my original remark was purely about Pentax as major player on dSLR market.


    Bloomberg numbers:

    Worldwide Digital Camera Market Shares by Vendor
    ================================================== ==
    Vendor 2010 2009
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Canon 19 19
    Sony 17.9 16.9
    Nikon 12.6 11.1
    Samsung 11.1 10.9
    Kodak 7.4 8.8
    Panasonic 7.6 7.6
    Olympus 6.1 6.2
    Fuji 4.9 5.4
    Casio 4 4.7
    PENTAX 1.5 1.7
    Vivitar 1.2 0.7
    Other 6.7 7

    (cant find Bloomberg report for 2011, sorry)

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    But my original remark was purely about Pentax as major player on dSLR market.


    Bloomberg numbers:

    Worldwide Digital Camera Market Shares by Vendor
    ================================================== ==
    Vendor 2010 2009
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Canon 19 19
    Sony 17.9 16.9
    Nikon 12.6 11.1
    Samsung 11.1 10.9
    Kodak 7.4 8.8
    Panasonic 7.6 7.6
    Olympus 6.1 6.2
    Fuji 4.9 5.4
    Casio 4 4.7
    PENTAX 1.5 1.7
    Vivitar 1.2 0.7
    Other 6.7 7

    (cant find Bloomberg report for 2011, sorry)
    But only 5 of those vendors sell DSLRs, and two of them, Sony and Olympus are on their way out of that market (although Sony SLT can be considered being a kind of semi-DSLR).

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    I.e i am not bashing Pentax.
    You are doing a very good impression of it.
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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post

    "Way better auto focus"? Compared to Pentax?



    Yair
    OK..... lets elaborate on the autofocus of the 3 MFD systems.

    Phase One:
    Three focus sensors located very close to the center of the screen.
    No indication of which sensor locks or attempts to lock focus.
    Focus lock indicator is at the bottom of the screen.
    No end user calibration can be performed.
    No auto compensation of focus when focusing and recomposing.

    Hasselblad H4:
    Only center focusing point, but the system includes true focus that auto adjusts focus when recomposing significantly improving focus and making the use of auto focus on features away from the center of frame in the final composition way more accurate. The photographer however has to take care not to move forwards or backwards when recomposing.

    Pentax 645D:
    User adjustable focus calibration.
    11 point focus sensor with precise focusing screen indicators. Also indicates what point is locking focus. Has focus sensors most spread out for a MFD system permiting more accurate focus and less focus and recompose.

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    But only 5 of those vendors sell DSLRs, and two of them, Sony and Olympus are on their way out of that market (although Sony SLT can be considered being a kind of semi-DSLR).
    So by same logic if only 4 people do make cake, no matter what - they all major producers. I see light now.

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You are doing a very good impression of it.
    8)) nahhhh.. If i were to actually bash their dSLR business i could've go for a while, telling some behind the curtain stories, but i wont. I am just not a big fun of them, lets leave it at this.

    But like i said - i do like that there is another dMF. May thousand flowers blossom, may thousand schools prosper

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Just to clarify what I say here - Fred - if you read my post, you'll see that I wrote "Medium format has done a good job of pushing entry level pricing to more reasonable levels"...

    That includes Pentax, and at times Phase One (before the P20+/21+/25+ were discontinued) as well as Leaf (Aptus-II 22, 28, etc...), and Hasselblad (H3D-II 31). The point was the pricing, not the subjective merits of the products.


    Steve Hendrix
    This from another guys post on another thread says it all quite clearly:

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post

    Right, its 1998 and I've just bought the first Phase One DB available - a 6MP Lightphase for $22900 - that's 0.38 cents per pixel.

    Ok, fast forward to 2012, and lets have a look at the IQ180 - 80MP for $48000 - that's 0.06 cents per pixel.

    So, for MFDBs the price per pixel now is 6x less than it was 14 years ago.

    Right, jump in the DeLorean again and lets go back to 1999 and buy the first 'affordable' 35mm DSLR a Nikon D1 with 2.7MP for $5580 - which equates to 0.21 cents per pixel

    Again, fast forward to 2012, and lets have a look at the Nikon D800/E - 36MP for $3000 - that's 0.008 cents per pixel

    So, for DSLRs the price per pixel now is 26x less than it was 14 years ago.

    6x vs 26x - yeah, kinda makes you wish there was a bit more competition in DB manufacturing doesn't it? If the Price per pixel for a MFDB had come down 26x, the IQ180 should be available for $12k - a much more economically realistic and viable proposition IMO, and exactly the price point where it should be pitched, remembering of course that it's just a capture device - you still gotta add bodies, lenses etc. to it.

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    OK..... lets elaborate on the autofocus of the 3 MFD systems.

    Phase One:
    Three focus sensors located very close to the center of the screen.
    No indication of which sensor locks or attempts to lock focus.
    Focus lock indicator is at the bottom of the screen.
    No end user calibration can be performed.
    No auto compensation of focus when focusing and recomposing.
    EDIT:
    The focusing on the DF camera has two settings. Speed and more accurate.
    The fast setting searches for focus and locks in one go.
    The more accurate setting (the default) searches for focus, does a preliminary lock and then does a little hunt to fine tune the focus lock.
    The speed setting is not accurate at all and the manual recommends using at least f8 for this setting.

    From the manual:
    C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
    Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
    decided.
    0: Speed
    (Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)
    I found the speed setting to be pretty much useless.


    Hasselblad H4:
    Only center focusing point, but the system includes true focus that auto adjusts focus when recomposing significantly improving focus and making the use of auto focus on features away from the center of frame in the final composition way more accurate. The photographer however has to take care not to move forwards or backwards when recomposing.

    Pentax 645D:
    User adjustable focus calibration.
    11 point focus sensor with precise focusing screen indicators. Also indicates what point is locking focus. Has focus sensors most spread out for a MFD system permiting more accurate focus and less focus and recompose.
    .... see edit....

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Corrected
    .e

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    I simply wanted to make two points.

    First is give a heads up that Phase One is discounting. I found out through an email from a dealer. I thought I would pass it on because it is not on the Phase One website yet.

    My other point in response to Steve Hendrix is that I do not think that MF in general has done a good job at lowering prices. If anything the huge progress from 35mm DSLR manufacturers is forcing them to do so. I think it is very significant that Pentax, a high volume 35mm DSLR manufacturer, makes the best deal and best body when comparing 44x33mm sensor cameras.
    Actually Pentax has fallen to less than 7% of the market...
    This was just a few days ago in an industry reporter article.
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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by RodK View Post
    Actually Pentax has fallen to less than 7% of the market...
    This was just a few days ago in an industry reporter article.
    7% of the DSLR market is still a very large volume of cameras.

    Their sub 24x36 sensor DSLR cameras do a very good job and some models have better dynamic range than most of the competition including some MFDBs.

    Here is an example of a leading fashion photographer that shoots for Vogue and Bazar that uses Pentax DSLRs

    Portfolios | Benjamin Kanarek
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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    To be more transparent, he's the only fashion photographer using Pentax and was going so back to the 6 megapixel days. A lone maverick is hardly an example.

    Not that I wouldn't prefer a pentax to our mamiya DF. We got a rental while our body and back has gone back for repair, this one won't work properly with the AC power supply. I told my assistant to get some batteries out of the box. He comes back and says he can't find any Mamiya batteries but as soon as he does he'll put them on to charge. I have to explain that it's AA batteries, 6 of them and that I've been advised not to use rechargeable ones either. He just stared at me in disbelief!
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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    To be more transparent, he's the only fashion photographer using Pentax and was going so back to the 6 megapixel days. A lone maverick is hardly an example.
    Actually he is not on his own. I've seen a few others. However my point was to show that Pentax has plenty of potential.

    I'm actually quite surprised that Pentax does not use Benjamin as an ambassador. Apart from being a great photographer he is a charming guy.

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    Re: Price drops for Phase one backs....

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post

    I'm actually quite surprised that Pentax does not use Benjamin as an ambassador. Apart from being a great photographer he is a charming guy.
    I think they did, actually, but for some reason, he decided to have his independence a few years ago. This according to my memory, which isn't great and I don't know the guy.

    Apart from that, I think he is a good example. The quality of the cameras and lenses, particularly not the lenses, is not the reason why not more professional photographers use Pentax. In my case, it's simply because Pentax have no functional service facility in this country. I prefer their cameras and lenses to Canikon in almost every way. For small format portrait photography, I could probably live with their 77mm FA Limited as my only lens. There's hardly anything better available from any manufacturer for that purpose.

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