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Thread: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

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    IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Just a quick update since I just checked this out. On my Roadie 28mm with CF and with my IQ 160 I was able to get a safe movement of about 7mm in either direction. Now with a crop sensor of the IQ 140 that number just went up to 12mm of movement in either direction. So given IF I can PULL the the camera back to the same focal length that would equal the FF IQ 160 than my net movements would be more . Let me be clear i have to move back and as we all know that may not always be the case. So in effect I actually gained something here. Not a bad thing

    Remember the 28mm Roadie is equal to a 18mm 35mm equivalent and with the IQ 140 it is 22mm. So i would have to pull back 4mm of focal length to match the 160 sensor size. For arch. shooters its all about Rise/fall and than its always about the damn wall behind you as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Very well said. That's why I am asking everywhere for a swivel screen for at least one FF dslr in a system. In my personal case, I was devastated when I found out the 5D3 didn't have one.
    Leaf has some backs with a one-way swivel screen. That's nice, very nice.

    I just got a Canon G1X and as I suspected, the swivel screen is a godsend in many real life situations for comfort, convenience or stealth purposes. For pro cameras in architecture it would be fantastic not to contort myself in order to see through the lens when the camera is just a few inches from the wall, which is 90% of all cases in interior photography.

    Once more, I'll say it: It beats me why swivel screens are not more wanted, more popular or better offered by camera makers. The pros easily surpass the cons.
    Well, sorry for hi-jacking the thread.
    Eduardo


    [QUOTE=Guy Mancuso;424178
    For arch. shooters its all about Rise/fall and than its always about the damn wall behind you as well.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Not at all you bring up a excellent point a swivel screen would be of help. I know I stuffed the camera as far back as I could into the corner of a wall but the issue is I need my head back there as well if we had a swivel screen than that would gain maybe 12-18 inches of space. I know that does not sound like a lot but on interiors sometimes its what can make or break a image. Also given what i just did by going down in sensor size 4mm does not sound like a lot but it is when it comes to wide angles. I would love to see some type of swivel. Maybe Yair can tell us more on the Leaf backs if he is reading this. I think they just go up or down not to the side which is what we would want. Even my dang Nikon with more bells and whistles to wake up a whole state does not have it.

    I realize tethered in this situation would be great but not always a option.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    I don't see that you're gaining much here really.

    The IQ160 sensor is 7.5mm taller, and 9.8mm wider than the IQ140's, and has the same pixel pitch. That extra 5mm or so of shift that you're getting with the IQ140 surely wouldn't be necessary if you were shooting on the IQ160? No need to shift the extra amount, because the relevant portion of the image circle is hitting the extra pixels already?

    Probably needs a diagram to explain it clearer, but - assuming you're shooting in landscape - a vertical shift of around 4mm on the IQ140 is effectively just a different 40MP crop on the IQ160.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    But I don't have a 160 now. Obviously this all depends if I can MOVE back to the 160 focal length . Basically its the same framing as the 160 than so I have 12mm of movement instead of 7mm. I have to equal the same focal length as the 160 with the same 28mm lens the only way to do that is move the camera to equal it. If I can't move I gain nothing.

    Lets make this clearer I have a 160 on my tech cam with the 28mm lens and lets say I am 20 ft from a building. Now take the same lens stick on a a 140 back and move back lets say 25 ft to equal the SAME framing than I have 12mm of rise instead of 7mm.
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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Yep, I'm not getting your logic guy. In a situation where you can step back with an IQ140 to equal the FOV of the IQ160 just means you can step back with the 160 and get an even wider FOV if desired. You're not actually able to shift more on the 140 and Rodie because the lens IC is fixed, regardless of sensor size. The amount of mm of movent is a pretty meaningless figure and the tech lens FOV is a better measurement of potential movement IMO.

    Well at least that is what I've always thought.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Appreciate the explanation Guy, but as Gareth points out, if you can move back with the 140, then you could move back with the 160. You wouldn't gain any benefit from the perceived extra shift, since 4mm of that shift comes "for free" with the larger sensor of the 160.

    Apologies if I'm misinterpreting things here!

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Well Im back further is what is making sense to me. The problem here is the disk in the roadie it stops me from going further than 7mm on a FF sensor it actually vignettes. On the crop sensor it gives me 12mm until I see it if I am back enough to equal the same focal length I had with the 160 it seems I get extra movement . Than again maybe Im crazy which is not a stretch by any means. LOL

    Guys you need to remember i don't have the 160 now. LOL Thats the problem
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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Guy, if you stand in the same position with an IQ140/160 and a Rodie 28mm lens on each camera, both offer the same amount of movement. It just happens you need to move the 140 more because it's a smaller chip. The lens dictates the movement (possible FOV) not the chip.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Hmmm I'm still thinking on this one.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Just a quick update since I just checked this out. On my Roadie 28mm with CF and with my IQ 160 I was able to get a safe movement of about 7mm in either direction. Now with a crop sensor of the IQ 140 that number just went up to 12mm of movement in either direction. So given IF I can PULL the the camera back to the same focal length that would equal the FF IQ 160 than my net movements would be more . Let me be clear i have to move back and as we all know that may not always be the case. So in effect I actually gained something here. Not a bad thing

    Remember the 28mm Roadie is equal to a 18mm 35mm equivalent and with the IQ 140 it is 22mm. So i would have to pull back 4mm of focal length to match the 160 sensor size. For arch. shooters its all about Rise/fall and than its always about the damn wall behind you as well.
    One can do the same with a bigger sensor and cropping to 33x44m sensor area.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Your missing the point I no longer have the FF sensor of the 160 I sold it and now have a IQ 140 with a smaller sensor.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Have you thought of checking out Panogear.

    Definitely an option when there are walls behind you.

    Quality is quite amazing and with the massive files sizes you get you can do some very good distortion correction in photoshop.




    here is an image from the panogear forum...

    10 portrait shots..... that's 360MP with your D800 and even more with your iq180



    The unit is fully automatic and it's very integrated with their software.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    See If I can explain this better I have a Roadie 28mm lens on a IQ 160 FF sensor it is equivalent to a 18mm in 35mm DSLR world, the lens on this sensor will only rise or fall 7mm. Okay same lens on a cropped IQ 140 is now a 22mm lens in 35mm DSLR world and now it will rise or fall 12mm. Now I don't have the 160 anymore but I want my 18mm back to do that I will have TO MOVE BACK 4mm of focal length. Doing that gives me the exact same framing as it would have with the 160mm 4mm closer. So know lets say I have the exact same framing of the 160 on the 140 because I moved back. I now have 12mm of movement instead of 7mm at the SAME FRAMING of the image. Bottom line I equaled the lens camera and focal length by moving back. Now everything would be the same but I have 12mm of rise or fall on this sensor and given the same framing now I would have a 5mm advantage of rise or fall on the crop sensor of the 140.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Your missing the point I no longer have the FF sensor of the 160 I sold it and now have a IQ 140 with a smaller sensor.
    That was not directed at you, just pointing out to others that they can use your numbers too if they have a bigger sensor and crop down to 44x33

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Have you thought of checking out Panogear.

    Definitely an option when there are walls behind you.

    Quality is quite amazing and with the massive files sizes you get you can do some very good distortion correction in photoshop.




    here is an image from the panogear forum...

    10 portrait shots..... that's 360MP with your D800 and even more with your iq180



    The unit is fully automatic and it's very integrated with their software.
    Thanks Fred but Im really talking about tech cam movements on this one. Cool piece of gear though
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    That was not directed at you, just pointing out to others that they can use your numbers too if they have a bigger sensor and crop down to 44x33
    Okay it just sort of confused things. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    So know lets say I have the exact same framing of the 160 on the 140 because I moved back. I now have 12mm of movement instead of 7mm at the SAME FRAMING of the image. Bottom line I equaled the lens camera and focal length by moving back. Now everything would be the same but I have 12mm of rise or fall on this sensor and given the same framing now I would have a 5mm advantage of rise or fall on the crop sensor of the 140.
    I think your looking at this too much from a 35mm equivalence perspective where by the lens is generally fixed. When discussing tech cameras and lens movements that relationship is a little different IMO. If talking about a fixed lens position then yes the FOV of your 28mm lens on a IQ140 is equivalent to a 22mm lens on 35mm vs 18mm on IQ160. However the 28mm has a field of view of 101 within its 70mm image circle which is fixed.

    The fact that you can move your IQ140 more around this IC does not suddenly mean you have gained a 5mm advantage but rather the chip is smaller and needs moving more to cover the same IC compared to the IQ160. So in other words both the IQ140/160 with the Rodie 28mm are able to capture an image with a 101 FOV from the same position. Its just the IQ140 will need moving more due to its smaller dimensions.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Yes and good point . I'm just wondering what that really is . Maybe I'm only gaining like a 2mm advantage. This is the part that has me baffled a little what is the net net gain if any. If I had both backs I could actually see it . I feel though there is something just not totally sure what. Now when playing with the 140 and using rise it felt like a ton but what is the net net.
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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Gareth, of course, is exactly right. I can see there are some practicalities here though that are useful.

    If we take Guy who has just traded down.
    - Spend more on the back and less on the lens, say IQ160 + 32mm
    - Or less on the back and more on the lens IQ140 + 28mm

    Roughly the same with a straight shot and no movements (i.e. the 35mm equivalent comparison), but the 28 has a wider FoV from the same position and the tech cam allows the IQ140 owner to take advantage of it.

    As most of the HRW lenses have a 90mm image circle, it tends to favour people who save the $$ and get a cheaper sensor then use shift.

    - If you're happy that say 30 or 40MP can produce the IQ you need (i.e. for me print to 60x40) then you need fewer longer lenses and one wider high lp/mm lens then just crop. The cost of the fine wide lens is $$ and you don't save much, but no stitching, less frequent lens changes, more convenience.

    - If you're happy to stitch, get a longer digaron type lens with a wider image circle and lower lp/mm, you can shoot a 4x5 equivalent, should easily achieve a true 100MP.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    I remember when trying to decide between a full and a crop sensor my dealer incorrectly pushing me towards the full frame as the only choice as I wanted to use it exclusively on a tech camera. Now I look back on that decision and with regards to tech camera use feel the chip size is of less relavence as we have movements. Sure, if your lazy you'll alway see more of what the lens projects in a single capture but you don't generally shoot tech if you like the easy life.

    IMO, when just considering stitching using a same gen sensor (IQ140/160, P40+/P65+) the only difference between the two is Mpix count.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Well there is a big price difference too between a 160 and 140 if we go by list it's around 15k or so. Other than mpx it's exactly the same sensor. When I decided to drop down I'm only on a tech cam so really not a big deal. But my 28mm very expensive lens is now a 22mm instead of a 18mm in a single shot. Now given I can shift 12mm left and right than I get I think 18mm right back but it's a two shot image now. So really not bad. Of course I could shift on the 160 about 7mm either side and wind up with maybe a 15mm or so. I'm not finding this as a big deal either. In all honesty it's pretty rare to get wider than 22 so a little extra work.
    Also my LCC will work less harder in post to clean up . I'm not pushing the edge of the FF of the 160 which can be a issue with these wides. The SK 28 did not work out in the end as I was getting a magenta cast in the upper right quadrant and we tested it a couple more times at my dealer and I just decided to switch to the Roadie 28mm and not deal with any issues. These 28mm are around 7-8 k and was not worth playing games on it. But yes if your only on a tech cam the crop factor is less of a importance. I bought the 160 because of the DF body and wanted to eliminate the crop lines of my P40 in the finder.

    So that cost savings could buy you a few lenses. There is no shame in owning a crop sensor and 40mpx is enough and I think the sweet spot in digital capture. I have a Epson 7900 which is 24 inches wide and if I can get stellar images on that size printer I'm happy. I know this file will go even bigger when needed too. My laptop like them much better too. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Having the Nikon D800 now all my files are the same size which is nice to have for various reasons . I'm actually down to a very very short list of things to buy. Scary I may just go into deep depression without using my buy button finger. ROTFLMAO
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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    The 60Mpix sensors do of course add additional benefits than just pixel count over the 40Mpix sensors but in relation to stitching they are pretty much the same.

    The crop in the DF was a big part of me going for the P65+ and something I could never give up even for the (too) much adored Nikon.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Guy, I think your logic is circular and you really did not gain anything. If you could move back with the 40, you could have moved back with the 60 or 80 too, and captured the entire scene identically with less shift and an appropriate crop -- or not. And the fact you can, but do not have to crop is advantage larger sensor.

    Stated another way, what you did loose is the wider AoV that the same lens provides on a larger sensor, which is a benefit when you cannot move back as is often the case in architectural shooting and always the case when shooting a subject at relative infinity; even if you can move back physically, it makes no difference since the subject is so far away. What you gained was having a sensor that resides in a smaller, sweeter spot of the lens' image circle, and the cost of that is net longer effective focals for every lens -- something you can also get by cropping with the larger sensor. So really, there is nothing "gained" from the crop sensor other than economy at purchase, and possibly some efficiency at capture as long as your desired image can be fit to it and you didn't need the extra pixels of a larger sensor.
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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Jack,

    You are correct. Guy has gained $$ at the expense of crop. Full stop.

    Guy,

    That is a good trade and doesn't need any defense. Some prefer one way, others the other. I would be on the fence, but am biased by having only used the 160. I absolutely loved my Canon 1D (the first one - still have it). 4MP, but eleven micron pixels, and a 1.3x crop. I never minded the crop, and most wide Canon glass was icky in the corners, so moving to a FF 1DsII was mixed bag. (Well, except for the quadrupling of MP - that was a very unmixed bag )

    Enjoy the damn thing! I'm jealous.

    --Matt

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Matt and Jack totally understand both your comments. My thinking all along here was I may get 2mm or so of extra rise. Okay it's has to do with vertical space . Let's say I'm shooting a wall if I am up close to it I cut the vertical angle down but moving back I would think I would increase that vertical angle. This is hard to get into words , I need to be in the field . You guys know me it would make sense if we where standing in the same spot. I could actually be wrong but some warped sense of logic tells me I'm changing the angle by moving back but net effect maybe not. Oh well it's not a big deal anyway. Honestly I'm happy with either back, net net I get the best there is.
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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Bud, you are correct that you change the angle from moving back, but you change it the same amount regardless of what sensor you have mounted to your camera. Image circle is image circle is image circle, and no matter what size or how you move your capture frame (sensor), it remains bounded by the limits of the image circle the chosen lens projects, period


    BTW, this reminds me when we were at the slat flats in Death Valley and we had 3 engineers, a physicist and a mathematician using four tripods to show visually how Scheimpflug worked and how focus and/or aperture changes affected the "wedge" of DoF -- we so should have videoed that for UTube!
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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Guy, sorry however I'm on Matt and Jack's side of the theory here. All things being equal (which they rarely never are) you really didn't gain anything. Okay that might not be entirely true however whatever you gained is so small as to defy measurement. Then on the other hand if you feel better then screw it - that's what counts.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Okay I'll give up, you know I'm stubborn as hell. LOL

    I thought something might be there. Maybe the sense of going 12mm got me over excited in my thinking. I'll start carrying a sledge hammer in my bag for any walls that get in my way. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    As long as you feel you're getting more movement then that is all that counts Guy!

    I would try and stop getting hung up on all that lens equivalence stuff and crop vs FF sensor rubbish. Going IQ140 didn't turn your 18mm equivalent lens in to a 22mm because the image angle is all that matters with tech lenses and your 28mm has a 101 field of view regardless of the chip you stick behind it.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Thanks I know but I think I will go buy something to get over it, just a touch sad I sold my 160 but that's okay I don't get hung up too much on gear anyway, it's all disposable with my buy and sell track record. LOL

    Need to keep that buy button finger warm. LOL
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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    That 23HR is calling......!

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Hey! No one is saying you gained nothing! Several thousand dollars is a LOT of beer!

    --Matt
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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ...but that's okay I don't get hung up too much on gear anyway...
    We need a mod. I think someone has hijacked Guy's account or aliens have abducted him!

    Now where is my tinfoil hat...


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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Hey! No one is saying you gained nothing! Several thousand dollars is a LOT of beer!

    --Matt
    Exactly
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ 140/IQ 160 movements with tech cam

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    We need a mod. I think someone has hijacked Guy's account or aliens have abducted him!

    Now where is my tinfoil hat...

    It's when my spelling and grammar are good than for sure I have been hijacked.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

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