Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 52

Thread: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Hi all -

    I've been skirting around this question for a long time now, and trying to pick up hints as to what the answer is, but I still don't know.

    It's proving impossible for me to get demos of either of these systems. Surely someone must have done this before? I've read everything I can find on both options, but have not seen any objective comparison tests.

    Some claim that the 23HR on an Alpa gives you the utmost quality available, others that the 24TS-E on the HCam is just as good, if not better.

    Back is an IQ180.

    It's important that I'm able to shoot something similar to this image with the kit:

    500px / Photo "Burj Khalifa" by Gerald Donovan

    That was taken with the 17 TS-E on a 5D Mk II with around 5 or 6mm of shift. I don't necessarily need to be quite as wide as that, but what is important is that I can shift to keep everything straight, and the top of the Burj Khalifa is of course very high, so I need to drop the horizon down quite a bit to get it in shot.

    I know for a fact that it's doable on the 24mm TS-E on the 5D with almost maximum shift.

    Given 23/24mm on MF equates to around 15mm on MF, I'm assuming that it's within the capability of either option that I'm considering, but suspect it might be very close on the Alpa. IIRC, a 14mm on a 5D will not get the whole Burj in shot without pitching the camera up a bit.

    At list prices, the Rodie/Alpa option costs $17,000, whilst the Canon/HCam option costs under $10,500. And yes. price is important, because if it wasn't a factor, I'd simply buy both and be done with it.

    (Camera wise, I'm including the remote with the HCam; and handgrip, back adapter, sync release, sync cord, HPF ring and viewfinder with the STC).

    HCam is attractive because it can also be used with the 17TS-E and 8-15 zoom. In fact, I could get the HCam and all three lenses and still come in at more than $2,500 under the cost of the Alpa with just the 23HR.

    There's no question that the HCam in the longer run is clearly the more flexible option, and opens up all sorts of interesting possibilities.

    BUT

    Is this at the cost of ultimate image quality, or not?

    Can someone demonstrate to me empirically that the 23HR/STC will produce a better quality image?

    Over time, it's entirely possible that I might end up buying both systems, but right now, I only have the funds for one.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

    PS.

    Sorry. One other question.

    According to Alpa, the 23HR will only shift 2mm on a FF sensor; whilst the 32HR will rise 13mm in portrait orientation. What does that mean with regards the shift-able image area of the two lenses? I'm not quite sure how to work this out, but how do the image circles of the 32HR and 23HR compare? 23HR is 70mm, 32mm is 90-95. What does that mean for the total angular field of view?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    1,927
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    One thing to consider on the HR 23 is the hard disc that Rodenstock places inside the lens to let you visually see the edge of the image circle. I have been told this disc is in all Rodenstocks. I can confirm it's in the 28mm. With the 23mm on a full frame Phase sensor, you should start to see the edges of the disc at around 5mm of horizontal shift. However you may see what is called the penumbra of the image circle sooner. The penumbra creates a lighter band that parallels the edge of the image circle. On my 28mm Rodenstock this effect starts to show at around 5mm of shift. If you have a solid object like blue sky it's very hard to correct for. This limits my shifting the 28mm to only 5mm in many conditions and that to me is not worth it. I have also seen the same effect in the 35mm HR Rodenstock. Depending on your subject, you may have issues with the penumbra, but once you hit the edge of the disk, all bets are off. The image is not recoverable and the disc IMO ruins a good bit of the image forwards by the way it casts a shadow.
    With a Phase sensor you may get a bit more rise/fall before this issue shows. This is due to the layout of the pixels. To me for the price point the Rodenstock 23, 28 35 are really not the best solution for shifting due to the:
    1. Smallish image circle
    2. Hard disk built in
    3. Issue with the Penumbra on certain subject.
    I have been told the 32 has the same disc, but it's larger circle of 90mm allows for more shifting. But at the price point and size etc, just can't justify that one.

    On the Ts-E I have not tried it (Canon?) but it an interesting idea. I have seen some of the material on the H-cam and I have a newer TS-E Canon which has some very good optics. But what looks good on 20Mp may not be as good on the Phase 180.

    Paul

  3. #3
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Roadies on a FF sensor such as the 180 . This is Rise and fall which you get a little more than shift
    23HR you get 3mm clean
    28 HR you get 7mm clean
    32 HR I'm pretty sure is 13mm clean

    Paul , myself and Bob that I know offhand have the Roadie 28mm.

    You may get more shifting and rise/fall out of the 24 shift lenses from Canon/Nikon but your comparing a Rodie to Canon/Nikon lens that's like showing up at a gun fight with a pocket knife in your hand. I'm teasing but it is true. I'm not the biggest fan of those shift lenses in the 24mm lens. The longer ones are very very good like the 45,85,90 from each brand.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Thanks Paul.

    The limitation in shifting the 23 is clearly a factor I need to consider carefully, particularly given there is one specific shot that I'd want to be able to capture that sounds like it would be right on the edge of the capability of the lens.

    This leads me back to my PS question - how close does the 32HR's full image circle field of view (taking into account the ability to shift the sensor around it) come to the image circle field of view of the 23HR given how constrained the 23HR is when it comes to shifting?

    32HR is listed as having 16mm of rise/fall, and 13 shift on a 54x40 sensor.

    If I've got my head around this correctly, you could shift and stitch and create a panorama equivalent to a 86x66 sensor. Diagonal field of view multiple would be 1.61 over the actual sensor size, which gives you the equivalent FoV of a 20mm lens.

    23HR is listed as only having 2mm of rise and fall. Effective sensor size if you shift/stitch a pano would be equivalent to 58x44 . Diagonal FoV multiple would be 1.08 over the actual sensor size, which gives you the equivalent FoV of a 21mm lens.

    So basically, if you are able to stitch, you're actually much better off with the 32HR.

    Does this make sense? Have I got my numbers right on this?

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Roadies on a FF sensor such as the 180 . This is Rise and fall which you get a little more than shift
    23HR you get 3mm clean
    28 HR you get 7mm clean
    32 HR I'm pretty sure is 13mm clean

    Paul , myself and Bob that I know offhand have the Roadie 28mm.
    Thanks Guy - I know you have done a huge amount of research into some of these lens options in the past, and am very grateful for it.

    You may get more shifting and rise/fall out of the 24 shift lenses from Canon/Nikon but your comparing a Rodie to Canon/Nikon lens that's like showing up at a gun fight with a pocket knife in your hand. I'm teasing but it is true. I'm not the biggest fan of those shift lenses in the 24mm lens. The longer ones are very very good like the 45,85,90 from each brand.
    This is exactly what I want proven though. There are people who have said the exact opposite, and whilst I of course very much respect everyone's views, I'm not prepared to drop $17K on this without empirical proof.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

    /edit

    Here's LuLa's review of the HCam. The comments on the Canon 24 are what I'm referring to.

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...blei-cam.shtml

  6. #6
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    The Canon 24 is considered the best of the two. On your other comment about the 32 many folks feel that is a great option for getting wide and has a lot of shifting ability. It's a popular choice for sure , not exactly cheap but none of these are either. I shot it for a couple days and it's a great lens for sure. Myself if It was me I would stay the tech cam route. Just seems like a clean way to go. But I can see the Hi cam as a viable option as well.

    What comes to mind here is your 180 and the 5.4 micron sensor really puts demands on having excellent glass in front of it. Now I say this and you need to realize I really am a lens whore. So I tend to lean in the best I can get my hands on direction, so not everyone thinks like this.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Oh I can definitely relate to the lens whore comment

    After-all, there's no point in spending $30K on a back if you're not prepared to put the best glass in front of it, but what I have learned over the last few months is that the most expensive option doesn't necessarily deliver the highest quality, and I believe the pricing of some of this tech glass is actually driven far more by supply and demand than it is by quality.

    Put simply, I remain to be convinced as to what the best glass is.

    It seems astonishing to me that seemingly no-one has ever actually done the comparison. I could answer the question myself if I could just have 15 minutes with both sets of kit.

  8. #8
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Personal viewpoint not shared by all by any means but here is my theory you spend a fortune on these backs to get the best IQ you can get your hands on. The thing is I want to get the absolute life blood from it and get all I can get out of it for my money. So I lean in the best glass I can get my hands on direction. That's me though. I just bought a Nikon D800 and a very good lens is the 70-200 but what did I buy a 200mm F2 lens . A good example of throwing the best I can at it. Is it smart , who knows but I won't complain either. Lol

    Okay need to do yard work before it hits 110. Check in later but you do have a tough choice here so take your time on it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Of course, what would be really cool would be if someone were to bring out an adapter for the Alpa 12 that included a Mamiya 645 shutter, Canon EF mount and electronic aperture control. Then you could have the best of all worlds.

    I'm sure such a thing would be physically possible.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    1,927
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    One other thought, the physical CF.

    Rodenstock makes a physical CF for all three of these lenses, 23 and 28 share the same filter, which takes you from 72mm to 95mm. The 32mm physical CF goes from 86mm to 105m.

    After shooting the 28mm (and 35mm HR) I feel that to get the best from these lenses you need the physical CF. The 28mm adjusts the light by 2.5x and makes a much more even frame. Yes, you can just use your LCC to correct, but in most cases I tried, all at iso50, there was considerable noise still in the shadows that took away from the overall shot.

    This adds another 1K to the overall cost, and it is something that you need to really plan for.

    One of these days I am going to try to rent a 32 in area mount, they are hard to find for rent in area R. The 32mm is probably the best solution for a wide shooter currently. If you want the FOV of a 28mm (maybe 23mm) you can shift for that since you should be able to get at least 12mm of shift on the 32mm before you hit the penumbra of the circle.
    Issues for me with the 32 are:

    1. Cost (just too much and more than likely not to get any better anytime soon as it's about an 11K solution with camera mount and physical CF
    2. Fragile. It's a heavy lens, and most of the mass is in front of the Copal. This causes problems long term some of which have been pointed out on this site. Rodenstock has released a notice stating that they don't think the 32mm should be carried around mounted to camera on a tripod due to the fact that you can possibly cause the lens/shutter to shift over time since all the weight is on the front. Also they are very clear about being careful about placing your rig down on the ground to avoid hard shocks.

    From my use, I have found the 28mm Rodenstock F 5.6 to be possibly the sharpest wide lens I have ever used on any camera or platform. It's also amazingly sharp at F5.6 and holds this all the to around F11. After using the Mamiya 28 for years it's great to be able to have such optics. The ability to add just a bit of tilt allows me to have the ability to get from infinity to about 5 feet all sharp, which I love. My only complaints on the 28mm are the fact that Rodenstock handicaps you with the disc (Guy's pointed this out in his review) and the fact that on the Phase 160, you get a pretty harsh green cast. This cast is easily corrected with the LCC. I can't imagine the Canon TS-E getting this type of result, but I would need the H-cam to try that.

    So in a perfect world the 32mm is probably it. But I had to weight in the costs and just couldn't make the justification on the 32mm.

    Paul

  11. #11
    Justalex
    Guest

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Hi Gerald

    In response to Guy's comment about the 45 and 90 being better than the 24, I hope he's talking about the old 24 TSE. The 24mm MkII is far and away a better lens than the 45 (and 24mm MkI). You can find reviews/comparisons online. I expect Canon are working on a 45 MkII but unit they do I would be reluctant to use it.

    Having tested the 17, 24 and 45mm TSE against the Cambo with 28mm Super Digitar recently, 35mm beats MF in ease of use and vignetting. MF wins on outright sharpness and CA. I shot the same image on Canon and Cambo using a 28mm and P65+ back and it's the Canon image I ended up supplying to the client because there was too much colour shift and noise on the edge of the MF image, even using an LCC.

    It must be said however that my clients aren't pixel peepers and so value speed over absolute quality. I however am the opposite.

    I bracket all my shots and in this respect 35mm is far more convenient. I shoot architecture and interiors for a living and find that when trying to get more than 12 images in a day, an MF back on tech camera can take too long.

    At the moment I can't bring myself to spend money on either and am hoping in vain for true wide angle shifting lenses for my Hasselblad so that I can have MF quality, no vignetting, CA correction and still be able to compose the image through the lens.

  12. #12
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Yes the older one. On the p65 and 28 you need to use the new LCC correction tool in C1 to clean and it's only been a couple months since we had that so yes before I can see why you had those issues. The new tool does solve it, I forget the name but I think it's technical wide anaylize tool.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  13. #13
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    One other thought, the physical CF.

    Rodenstock makes a physical CF for all three of these lenses, 23 and 28 share the same filter, which takes you from 72mm to 95mm. The 32mm physical CF goes from 86mm to 105m.

    After shooting the 28mm (and 35mm HR) I feel that to get the best from these lenses you need the physical CF. The 28mm adjusts the light by 2.5x and makes a much more even frame. Yes, you can just use your LCC to correct, but in most cases I tried, all at iso50, there was considerable noise still in the shadows that took away from the overall shot.

    This adds another 1K to the overall cost, and it is something that you need to really plan for.

    One of these days I am going to try to rent a 32 in area mount, they are hard to find for rent in area R. The 32mm is probably the best solution for a wide shooter currently. If you want the FOV of a 28mm (maybe 23mm) you can shift for that since you should be able to get at least 12mm of shift on the 32mm before you hit the penumbra of the circle.
    Issues for me with the 32 are:

    1. Cost (just too much and more than likely not to get any better anytime soon as it's about an 11K solution with camera mount and physical CF
    2. Fragile. It's a heavy lens, and most of the mass is in front of the Copal. This causes problems long term some of which have been pointed out on this site. Rodenstock has released a notice stating that they don't think the 32mm should be carried around mounted to camera on a tripod due to the fact that you can possibly cause the lens/shutter to shift over time since all the weight is on the front. Also they are very clear about being careful about placing your rig down on the ground to avoid hard shocks.

    From my use, I have found the 28mm Rodenstock F 5.6 to be possibly the sharpest wide lens I have ever used on any camera or platform. It's also amazingly sharp at F5.6 and holds this all the to around F11. After using the Mamiya 28 for years it's great to be able to have such optics. The ability to add just a bit of tilt allows me to have the ability to get from infinity to about 5 feet all sharp, which I love. My only complaints on the 28mm are the fact that Rodenstock handicaps you with the disc (Guy's pointed this out in his review) and the fact that on the Phase 160, you get a pretty harsh green cast. This cast is easily corrected with the LCC. I can't imagine the Canon TS-E getting this type of result, but I would need the H-cam to try that.

    So in a perfect world the 32mm is probably it. But I had to weight in the costs and just couldn't make the justification on the 32mm.

    Paul

    Agree on all points.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Thanks for all the considered comments folks, much appreciated.

    Paul - you raise some very good points regarding the 32HR, but I am beginning to think that were I to go down the Alpa route, it would in fact be a more versatile lens than the 23. Particularly if I've got this bit right:

    32HR is listed as having 16mm of rise/fall, and 13 shift on a 54x40 sensor.

    If I've got my head around this correctly, you could shift and stitch and create a panorama equivalent to a 86x66 sensor. Diagonal field of view multiple would be 1.61 over the actual sensor size, which gives you the equivalent FoV of a 20mm lens.

    23HR is listed as only having 2mm of rise and fall. Effective sensor size if you shift/stitch a pano would be equivalent to 58x44 . Diagonal FoV multiple would be 1.08 over the actual sensor size, which gives you the equivalent FoV of a 21mm lens.

    So basically, if you are able to stitch, you're actually much better off with the 32HR.

    Does this make sense? Have I got my numbers right on this?
    Can anyone confirm the logic in that - that if you're prepared to shift and stitch, you actually will get a wider FoV (equivalent to a 13mm lens on 35mm) with the 32HR than with the 23HR. If my calcs are correct, it would end up as a 200MP file.

    /edit

    Ahh. Wait. Thinking about it, you wouldn't be able to have max rise and max shift at the same time, would you. Hmm. Still an interesting option though.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    1,927
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    One other point, with either the 28, 23, or 32, I would consider either Arca or Cambo first over Alpa. Not to get into a brand war. I looked at them all. I wanted to be able to tilt with wides, and Cambo and Arca both offer this. As far as I know Alpa has made a statement of direction to allow this, but for now I don't think you can.

    I have the Arca, Guy the Cambo, each has areas where they excel over the other, but both offer tilting and swing on all of these lenses at least the 28 and 32. I can't remember if Cambo offers the T/S mount on the 23. I know with Arca by camera design you can have either Tilt or Swing active, just not both at the same time on all 3.

    Paul

  16. #16
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    No TS on the 23, but yes roadie 28 and 32
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  17. #17
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    HCam makes a base model without sliding back that is less expensive -- and all you need for the IQ180. I will add that the newest 24 TS-E is extraordinary, and I will say both are very close. One fairly impressive advantage to the HCam solution, is you then also have the 17 as an option for UBER wide.

    THe 32 HR Is also an extraordinary lens, but when shifted to match the 23 capture angle, edge resolution has fallen off enough there is not really any gain for the extra capture work and pixel processing involved.

    IOW I would get the 23HR over the 32 if the 23 covers what you need, or I'd get the HCam if you envisioned ever needing or wanting a 17 option in addition to the 23/24 option. Finally, the Arca RM3D will give you full tilt capability with the 23HR if that is how you decide to go.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Is there any full-size sample of the Rodenstock 23mm at IQ180 out there for us to see?

    Here's one of the TS-E 24mm and 17mm on H-Cam IQ180, scaled to 70% unfortunately. Not sure if Stefan has posted these images on this forum, this is to a message in the Lula forum, hope it is ok:

    Canon 24 ts on Hcam vs tecnical cameras with real LF lenses?

    Wide angle lenses are hard to make, so all those lenses have some quality issues.

    When I started with MF tech digital I was naive and had interpreted all talk of how fantastic Rodenstock/Schneiders are that the wides were so good you would not be able to differ a corner crop from a center crop even after shifting on an IQ180. Well, that's not really the case. Since that I nowadays always want to see a 100% picture so I know here to put my expectations. We all have different interpretations of what "fantastic image quality" means.

    The TS-E 24mm clearly show image quality issues in the above example. Say if the Rodenstock 23mm shows less, but only a little bit less, is it still worth it? It's a personal decision.

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    122
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    I got both the 23 and the 32 HR
    What has been posted earlier sounds right in my experience
    On the long side the 32 got 16 mm and the 23 HR 3-4 mm of shift (full frame sensor ) in other words though I have not done the math but in practical terms the 32 HR stitched can yield a very similar FoV than the 23HR. A CF will help with noise issues, but and this seems to Not been addressed is the image you posted which is a twilight exterior
    I can tell you from my own experience that stitching the 32 HR especially in a delicate fast changing light situation is not as straight forward as doing the same on the Canon 17 or 24TSEs which I use frequently as well.
    I cannot explain the reason for it but my take is that the lower portion of the image in a stitched scenario ( architectural vertical rise like the one you posted) has less color cast on the LCC file as compared to the upper part of the image where the LCC got to do more work thus ending up with different hues
    I have had countless headache getting them to match perfectly especially in twilight
    That was the reason I got the 23HR
    Though I must say the 32 HR is much more loved , firstly because I think the 23 is too wide ( though it saved my butt on many occasions) but I love the shift capabilities on the IQ180
    so in short it got much more use than the 23 HR
    I cannot comment on the Hcam , but the 17 TSE is a really good performer and gives you more shift than the 23HR . Having said this though the 17 TSE got 10 mm of shift I would never go that far since it's really stretching reality to an unacceptable limit IMHO
    Not sure if this helped but this is my experience with architecture and interiors on those lenses.
    Re STC and shift: keep in mind that the camera needs to be rotated by 90 degrees in order to shift . Not a biggie but I would have loved it to see the STC being built as a rise and fall camera rather than a shift camera .
    All folks i know with an STC use it mostly for rise and fall and not left and right shift .
    One more thing if you consider going the Alpa route I would wait a little while maybe until Photokina with your purchase when the updated TS mounts for wide angle lenses will be coming .
    Grischa


    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Thanks for all the considered comments folks, much appreciated.

    Paul - you raise some very good points regarding the 32HR, but I am beginning to think that were I to go down the Alpa route, it would in fact be a more versatile lens than the 23. Particularly if I've got this bit right:



    Can anyone confirm the logic in that - that if you're prepared to shift and stitch, you actually will get a wider FoV (equivalent to a 13mm lens on 35mm) with the 32HR than with the 23HR. If my calcs are correct, it would end up as a 200MP file.

    /edit

    Ahh. Wait. Thinking about it, you wouldn't be able to have max rise and max shift at the same time, would you. Hmm. Still an interesting option though.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Gerald

    I would love to make this comparison, my problem is that I will not get the equipment from the makers or dealers to do it. So maybe a german user of this (Rodie/Alpa or Cambo ) may help out ?

    I think it is pretty clear that the center sharpness of the Rodenstock will be better (Question is : how much ?). As also mentioned, the HCam/Canon combo does not need any Whiteshot,LCC nor significant vignetting control.
    This in my opinion compensates a lot of quality on the DR side on the outer areas of the images shot by the HCam. It makes the Images more uniform and easier to work with. We have about 2 stops (3,5 versus 5,6) brighter images to focus with and we do not need a centerfilter (another 1-1,5 stops darker). So even inside of buildings or when it´s a bit darker we can focus optically and exactly.

    and finally with the now modified rear sides of the 17+24 TSE lenses we have real 3 +3mm Movements on the 17mm and 6+8mm on the 24mm.
    The longer focal lenghts with a Mirex and a 50mm Hasselblad Distagon had 12+14mm without vignetting (!!!), the longer 100 mm SPlanar does have the same 12+14mm (this is barrel/Adapter vignetting limited by the hole/size of the Mirex adapter), so with larger adapter openings we could probably shift wider.

    I know a comparison would be really helpful, so I can only invite the competition to offer a meeting where we can do this maybe under control of some neutral people who can take a look. Or maybe a Magazine has interest in this and wants to organize it. I´ll be there !

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    We should make this happen.

    Bryan Siebel - you about?

    I know Bryan has the Alpa and the 23HR and is very accomplished with it. Maybe the 32HR too, if not, I'm sure he can get hold of one. Would be interesting to see the 32HR shifted against the 23.

    Let's do this in Dubai. I'll put you up in a hotel for a couple of nights if you cover the airfare Stefan

  22. #22
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by rupho View Post
    Re STC and shift: keep in mind that the camera needs to be rotated by 90 degrees in order to shift . Not a biggie but I would have loved it to see the STC being built as a rise and fall camera rather than a shift camera .
    All folks i know with an STC use it mostly for rise and fall and not left and right shift .
    One more thing if you consider going the Alpa route I would wait a little while maybe until Photokina with your purchase when the updated TS mounts for wide angle lenses will be coming .
    Grischa
    STC with rise/fall default ... it's called the SWA and already exists.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  23. #23
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Spain & Sweden
    Posts
    1,196
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    STC with rise/fall default ... it's called the SWA and already exists.
    Nope, SWA rise only up to 25mm. STC shift left/right 18mm either way (but ofcourse easy to turn for rise/fall).
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

  24. #24
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Hi Gerald

    Maybe in August ? I am most likely going to Singapure and could make a stop in Dubai !

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  25. #25
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    Nope, SWA rise only up to 25mm. STC shift left/right 18mm either way (but ofcourse easy to turn for rise/fall).
    Oops - yes you're right about rise only without flip. Well I suppose that we could get picky and introduce the SWA and de-centred lenses but I digress. (Also there are 4 examples of the 12 ST out there somewhere too - an intriguing study of a half max)

    I have to admit that I also have plates on both axis of my STC so that I can shoot rise/fall & shift. There are times I miss my max.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Zug/Zurich (Switzerland), Dubai, Sydney
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    We should make this happen.

    Bryan Siebel - you about?

    I know Bryan has the Alpa and the 23HR and is very accomplished with it. Maybe the 32HR too, if not, I'm sure he can get hold of one. Would be interesting to see the 32HR shifted against the 23.

    Let's do this in Dubai. I'll put you up in a hotel for a couple of nights if you cover the airfare Stefan
    I'll consider it, but I'm out of Dubai for the summer. I expect to be back before Photokina.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Zug/Zurich (Switzerland), Dubai, Sydney
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Gerald

    Maybe in August ? I am most likely going to Singapure and could make a stop in Dubai !

    regards
    Stefan
    I'm in Kuala Lumpur and could easily meet you in Singapore
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Great. I hope this can happen folks. Singapore or Dubai, doesn't really matter, as long as it gets done!

    If you are able to stop off on your way though Stefan, I'd love a demo please

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    314
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    I would definately go for the H cam. I shoot it with the Canon 17 and 24 TSE lenses aswell as with the Hartblei Zeiss SR 80 and 120mm. The camera is so easy in use, allows all settings i need, i almost never have to make a white shading and image quality is perfect. The slider also is a joy when making double exposures as you do not need to use force to slide ( motor used) and i always goes to the exact same position.

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by H3dtogo View Post
    I would definately go for the H cam. I shoot it with the Canon 17 and 24 TSE lenses aswell as with the Hartblei Zeiss SR 80 and 120mm. The camera is so easy in use, allows all settings i need, i almost never have to make a white shading and image quality is perfect. The slider also is a joy when making double exposures as you do not need to use force to slide ( motor used) and i always goes to the exact same position.
    Hi - which back do you use?

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

  31. #31
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    One other comment on stitching the 32HR or any other lens on the IQ180 -- LCC color shifts do exist, and in most cases you will have some color tuning to do if you want accurate color and perfect matches. This sounds easier than it is: my typical procedure is to apply LCCs appropriately to each frame, then open all three (Center, Left and Right) frames in C1, pin RGB call-out flags in 3 of the same spots along the stitch lines for center to left and center to right, then go to work matching the edge frame colors to the center frame. This usually requires careful and subtle tweaks to color temp and tint, then very fine tuning using the advanced color editor -- I can tell you from experience, as can anybody else who's done it, it is not a quick or trivial procedure. It usually takes me about an hour to get an acceptable match. Note I usually never bother with this step for a landscape stitch -- or just do it quick and dirty -- and rather let the pano assembly program do the color blend, here CS's color blending is actually quite excellent. But with a client shot, like an architectural pano, I've literally spent hours getting the frames to match, and its surprising just how visible a few points of color difference can show along a stitch-line.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  32. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    So I finally got to do this test myself (actually with a 24 TS-E on the FPS, and a 23HR on the Max).

    The 23HR absolutely blows the 24 TS-E out of the water. Hopefully I'll get some time tomorrow to load up a couple of samples.

  33. #33
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,275
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    So I finally got to do this test myself (actually with a 24 TS-E on the FPS, and a 23HR on the Max).

    The 23HR absolutely blows the 24 TS-E out of the water. Hopefully I'll get some time tomorrow to load up a couple of samples.
    Imagine that
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    I'm super-interested in seeing some real-life A/B comparison. I use the TS-E 24 myself on a Canon camera, and the lens is sure good, so good I can use it with 1.4x extender and get good results (gives me my favourite fov of 35mm 135 equivalent).

    However, as soon as I switch to my medium format system the quality expectations rise. One aspect I think is that the lack of AA-filter lets you "see" more of the lens performance, but also because one big reason for using medium format is for me the high resolution, so what I consider perfectly okay lens performance for my Canon can be unacceptably poor if same output would come from my Linhof Techno. Yes, it's double standards :-)

    The Rodenstock should on paper be better, shorter flange distance and smaller aperture allows for less crazy-corrective designs, but on the other hand Canon has produced several impressive new lens designs lately and has some very advanced optical technology that I'm not sure even Rodenstock has the equivalence of, so I don't think it was a clear-cut case.
    Last edited by torger; 4th February 2013 at 07:08.

  35. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,069
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    83

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    So I finally got to do this test myself (actually with a 24 TS-E on the FPS, and a 23HR on the Max).

    The 23HR absolutely blows the 24 TS-E out of the water. Hopefully I'll get some time tomorrow to load up a couple of samples.
    I went through a very similar process, especially since I already have a boatload of Canon glass.

    I played with the HCAM, and while built well and meets all its claims, I decided it was not for me.

    I went with the 32HR, and may add the 23HR at some point. The thread below has stitched images with 32HR on IQ180 on Arca (horizontal with +/- 15mm). With C1 7, I think think the corners, even at this shift level are very usable. A slight tilt would have saved more of the foreground on the left side as I think it is more DoF than lens issues. I also do not use the CF on this lens. This post also has links to the raw files.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...5mm-iq180.html

    Also, don't forget that you still have the option of pano stitching any of these lenses if you don't have anything in the foreground.

    There are lot of opinions out there, but best to try for your self. For me, and taking page from Mr. Mancuso, I feel I need to get gear out of the way, and the best way to do that is not make compromises if possible. Again, physics and finances don't always allow this.

    Having used the best wide glass on Nikon/Canon/Leica, I can safely say that the Rodie 32HR is magical.

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    OK, a few caveats up front.

    This is not meant as a scientific test - I only really did it for my own interest sake and wasn't originally intending to share these, but since you asked...

    23HR on the Max, 24TSE on the FPS. Same IQ180 back used for both.

    The shots are a few minutes apart, and I didn't get exactly the same framing - like I said, this isn't intended to be scientific.

    ISO 35, I thought I'd used f/8 used on both lenses, but looking back on it, I think the 23HR might have been f/8 and a third. Unfortunately I left WB on auto. I've changed the WB on the 24TSE shot to match that on the 23HR. Not sure if this was the right thing to do, but there's a huge difference in the colours.

    3mm rise on both. Clearly the horizons are not aligned - I think that the 24TSE does not mount dead central on the FPS, but am not sure. Something I'll try to look at in more detail when I get some more time.

    LCC's applied to both files, but apart from that, they're basically untouched through C1 (so whatever default processing is in there would have been used).

    23HR, then 24TSE (as if you needed telling)

    Full frame:





    Bottom left:





    Edge of the building in bottom left





    Mid-height Burj Khalifa





    Top of The Address




  37. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    I can say from my Canon experience that the TS-E 24mm is not an f/8 lens, it's more of an f/10-f/11. So if you are using the TS-E 24 with an IQ180 that uses most of the image circle and look into the corners, f/10-f/11 and some deconvolution sharpening on that is probably a better image quality tradeoff.

    If you need f/8, this test clearly shows that the Rodenstock is significantly superior - no need to be more scientific than this, thank you for sharing. With my quality standards on MF I would not think the TS-E result is acceptable.

    I think it is still unanswered if say f/11 would yield a "good enough" result though, the corners do get significantly better at that aperture. You would suffer some diffraction of course though, but I don't think it would be too bad in a sharpened print.

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I can say from my Canon experience that the TS-E 24mm is not an f/8 lens, it's more of an f/10-f/11. So if you are using the TS-E 24 with an IQ180 that uses most of the image circle and look into the corners, f/10-f/11 and some deconvolution sharpening on that is probably a better image quality tradeoff.

    If you need f/8, this test clearly shows that the Rodenstock is significantly superior - no need to be more scientific than this, thank you for sharing. With my quality standards on MF I would not think the TS-E result is acceptable.

    I think it is still unanswered if say f/11 would yield a "good enough" result though, the corners do get significantly better at that aperture. You would suffer some diffraction of course though, but I don't think it would be too bad in a sharpened print.
    I'll try to find the time to do another test later in the week at f/11

  39. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Great test Gerald and thanks for taking the time to share your results, however I have to agree with Torger. The Canon is pretty well know to have bad corners at f8 while the Rodenstock lenses are designed to perform at their best at f8.

    Disregarding the edge performance, I' quite shocked at how good the Canon is in the centre compared to the Rodie. I think the slightly darker exposure on the Rodie helps pull in more detail. With a 1/3 or 1/2 less on the Canon, things would look even better.

  40. #40
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    I can't attest to the Canon 24 but I got my 23 HR on Thursday and after only a couple of days of shooting in Yosemite this weekend I'm in danger of sounding like a teenage valley girl with my enthusiasm - OMG!!! This is one SHARP lens!

    I was concerned initially that it was going to be as large as the other new Rodie's but actually even in Alpa mount it's really not a monster. I don't have the center filter yet but C1 7 seems to do a pretty decent job with the LCCs. My first impressions of the corner sharpness match Gerald's samples here - i.e. really sharp.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 5th February 2013 at 00:04.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  41. #41
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post

    Mid-height Burj Khalifa



    I notice that the 23HR is sharp enough to bring on moire even with the IQ180 in both the Burj Khalifa and Top of the Address shots.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  42. #42
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Hi Gerald

    I always use the 17 and the 24mm TS-E´s at f11 or even f11,5.
    The loss in diffraction is tiny and can be easily compensated in post with Capture One, the gain in Corner sharpness is worth much more. it has also to be said that it is a good idea not to focus in the center but in a ringform at about 30 % from center. This is due to the comparably strong field curvature.

    There is an advantage of the 24mm against the 23HR -it has more movements (about 6-8mm depending on the distance with our tuneup) ! And no LCC needed nor any center filter. So focusing and overall usage will be MUCH faster, mainly because of the 2Stops brighter image..............

    And, last but not least, with the centerfilter and a decent shutter it´s 4x maybe 5 times the price of the Canon (1800€ to 7800€ in Germany), so it better be somehow superior.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  43. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Zug/Zurich (Switzerland), Dubai, Sydney
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    We should make this happen.

    Bryan Siebel - you about?

    I know Bryan has the Alpa and the 23HR and is very accomplished with it. Maybe the 32HR too, if not, I'm sure he can get hold of one. Would be interesting to see the 32HR shifted against the 23.

    Let's do this in Dubai. I'll put you up in a hotel for a couple of nights if you cover the airfare Stefan
    I will be living in Switzerland from April, so maybe Stefan and I can get together in either Switzerland or Germant to do this. I am keen to see what we get.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  44. #44
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,294
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Hi Brian

    Yes I live close to the swiss border now, so no problem. But I will as well be in Dubai again later this year. Lets see - one way or the other !

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  45. #45
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    90
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    Nope, SWA rise only up to 25mm. STC shift left/right 18mm either way (but ofcourse easy to turn for rise/fall).
    The Rodenstock HR 28mm can only physical shift 20mm on the SWA due to interference of the lens rear housing.

  46. #46
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    90
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    I am with Guy on the 28mm HR. I think this is perhaps the most versatile lens with extremely high resolution.

  47. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Hmm.

    Ok, not so much night-and-day between these two when you stop the Canon down to f/16. Thread over at LuLa with the results...
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  48. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Great test again Gerald.

    That Canon is one fine lens and Canon are giving them away when you compare it to the Rodie.

    So have you purchased both of these lenses or are you looking to purchase?

  49. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Great test again Gerald.

    That Canon is one fine lens and Canon are giving them away when you compare it to the Rodie.

    So have you purchased both of these lenses or are you looking to purchase?
    I'm fortunate enough to have them both. I'm actually on my second 24TSE. It was one of my most used lenses when I was using Canon gear, and I sold it to help finance the purchase of the IQ180. Then I got the HCam, and bought another!

    I never expected to own a 23HR, but came by one recently. Ultimately, if you don't need to shift much, there's no doubting in my mind that it's a better lens than the Canon, but after seeing what the Canon can do stopped down, there's not a lot in it. The fact that the Canon can be used on the FPS is a significant advantage too.

  50. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cutting to the chase. 23HR/STC, or 24TS-E/HCam?

    Yes. I take back all my doubts about the FPS when the Canon lenses can perform like this on an IQ180. I imagine it opens up many more opportunities.

    No question the Rodie performs better and it should but you'd have to be looking very hard to tell any differences and of course own a copy of each lens.

    Its funny, we're all told how much better the HR glass is than anything else and we all just take it as gospel. However, if you showed these shots without disclosing the lens it was shot with, would we all spot the difference and get 100% correct?

    And at what stage do we say that's good enough?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •