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Thread: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

  1. #1
    Aitor
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    Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Hi,
    I have an offer of those backs more or less at the same price. ( Sinar+adapter vs. Leaf refurbhised with contax interface. )
    both have its pros and cons. What's your personal opinion about ?.
    regards
    Last edited by Aitor; 24th October 2008 at 01:53.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    I don't think there is a such as back as the 22LV. There is the eMotion22 and the eMotion54LV. Which do you mean? I have had both.

    With the Sinar back you get the adapter system, meaning that you can run it on nearly all medium format cameras, and change between platforms in a few minutes just by changing adapter plates. Leaf does not offer this. The e54LV has liveview included. I believe that with Leaf, you need to pay extra for a liveview dongle (perhaps someone can verify if the Aptus 22 has liveview at all). The battery is internal with the Sinar but I believe that the Leaf has an external battery. The Sinar Exposure software now uses DNG as the native raw file format, meaning you can open the files in the raw processor of your choice, without any conversion required, or of course process the file in the Sinar software if you so choose. You are more restricted with the Leaf. The Sinar back also includes some solid state memory (3GB, iirc) so you don't have to use CF cards at all. Within the next week, Sinar will be releasing the next version of Exposure for the Mac and PC. I think the Leaf is still Mac only. That might not be relevant to you. The Leaf has a larger screen and probably nicer interface which may be useful to you if you shoot mainly untethered.

    As for image quality, I'm sure they are both excellent and hard to tell the files apart.

  3. #3
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Sorry, I mean the emotion54LV ( 22 megapixels ).
    Thanks for your answer. I have Sinar now ( 23HR ). I know that the advantage that Sinar have with the adapter plates. But in practice ( it's my opinion ) the price of the adapters make this system not as good because it cost 1000 euros or more, the same price you pay to change whatever back to adapt to whatever camera. So in practice is more or less the same.
    I will shot mainly untethered because I have a good offer for a 54H to shoot with the P3 in studio. I will have two backs. The 54 H for estudio work and the other I chose for location.
    I like Sinar, but expect that the new software to be more quick than the actual captureshop that I think is very slow.

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Graham, maybe this is a good place to ask you for a detailed review of your experience with the e54LV? I am strongly considering the same back.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    The Leaf backs are excellent when tethered, as well as when shooting mobile.

    ACR directly recognizes Leaf CMOS files. When I shot Leaf in studio, I used Bridge as my browser but Leaf Capture for the full screen, most recent capture ... very fast set up.

    IMO, one thing to check is what the lowest and highest ISO is for each back, what the speed of capture is for each, and determine how important the large LCD is to you ... on older backs the Leaf LCD was miles ahead of everyone. The smaller LCDs are dismal, and only good to confirm that you actually got the shot. None but the most recent LCDs, including Leaf's, work very well in bright ambient light, but there are inexpensive accessories to remedy that. I had a Lee bellows shade that was made specifically for Leaf Aptus LCDs that really worked well.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitor View Post
    But in practice ( it's my opinion ) the price of the adapters make this system not as good because it cost 1000 euros or more, the same price you pay to change whatever back to adapt to whatever camera. So in practice is more or less the same.
    A friend of mine in Sweden had to pay $5K to change his Phase P30 back to another mount. Ouch.

    The big advantage of the adapter system is that you can run multiple platforms concurrently, i.e. use a Mamiya 645 one day, then switch to a Hy6 the next day, or Contax 645, or Hasselblad H, etc

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Graham, maybe this is a good place to ask you for a detailed review of your experience with the e54LV? I am strongly considering the same back.
    Hi Carsten, a lot has been said already. Perhaps you could ask specific questions if there's something specific you'd like to know?

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Oh, I nearly forgot. Sinar has a standard 3 year warranty. I assume Leaf is 1 year. Something else to consider.

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    I will do a little searching then. I am just looking for a more detailed list of pros/cons than the usual shorthand posted, and maybe a little about the typical shoot and post-shoot workflow with this back.
    Carsten - Website

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I will do a little searching then. I am just looking for a more detailed list of pros/cons than the usual shorthand posted, and maybe a little about the typical shoot and post-shoot workflow with this back.
    Will you shoot tethered or untethered?

  11. #11
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Oh, I nearly forgot. Sinar has a standard 3 year warranty. I assume Leaf is 1 year. Something else to consider.
    this is something to considere. Thanks for the info.
    the Leaf they offer me is the Aptus 54.

  12. #12
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitor View Post
    this is something to considere. Thanks for the info.
    the Leaf they offer me is the Aptus 54.
    The 54S has the fastest write speed and largest buffer on the market, it was important to me when I bought mine. As far as image quality goes, they're both great. Leaf has the better interface of the two, better screen and far better software imo. Like you I have found Sinar's adaptor solution not that practical in practice. Screwing and unscrewing the plates isn't that fast and fiddly, not something that anyone wants to do on a regular basis. The cost is high too as mentioned.

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    The 54S has the fastest write speed and largest buffer on the market, it was important to me when I bought mine. As far as image quality goes, they're both great. Leaf has the better interface of the two, better screen and far better software imo. Like you I have found Sinar's adaptor solution not that practical in practice. Screwing and unscrewing the plates isn't that fast and fiddly, not something that anyone wants to do on a regular basis. The cost is high too as mentioned.

    I donīt know if is the Aptus 54S or only the Aptus 54 if it exits. I can find information about it .
    Last edited by Aitor; 24th October 2008 at 05:29.

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Probably 80-90% untethered. FWIW, I am considering primarily the P25+ as competition, although given the (currently) higher price, I lean towards the Sinar.

    I found an old "Why did you choose your back" thread, and am working my way through that. There seems to be some good info.
    Carsten - Website

  15. #15
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitor View Post
    I donīt know if is the Aptus 54S or only the Aptus 54 if it exits. I can find information about it .
    There's only 54S, the standard 22mp back is called a 22, not 54.

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Test, test, test the gear before you buy it.
    Also consider it a simple test of the dealer you'll be working with. How fast and competent the dealer is at getting you a back and answering your questions will give you an idea of the support you'll be getting.

    also, the software is so important for these backs, it's worth tryng them out, and trying out the native files in different software.

    I've been using Leaf for 2 1/2 years now and everything except the LCD in daylight and high ISO (200 and above) is excellent. The software is stable and fast and the files are amazing.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Probably 80-90% untethered.
    Ok then the workflow could be one of the following:

    - use Brumbaer tools to import images from CF card, then convert the sinar raw files to DNG using Brumbaer's own conversion which includes highlight recovery. Then use program of choice to develop the raws and export as web gallery, TIFFs, etc

    - use Sinar Exposure to import the images from CF card. These files will immediately be saved in DNG format. You can then continue to process in Exposure or use a raw processor of choice.

    So to summarize, there are two ways to import the files, both giving you DNGs which can then be worked with in any raw processor. You can use whichever you prefer.

    Exposure for PC will be out in a few days, giving you yet more flexibility.

    Does that help?

  18. #18
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    There's only 54S, the standard 22mp back is called a 22, not 54.
    Yes, I have to much information in my head these days.
    The back they offer me is the Aptus 22. I thinks it is vey expensive for a refurbished back that is descatalogued some time ago.
    I think I will buy the Emotion 54LV is there is not new news.

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Thanks Graham, that gives me a starting point for further reading. I am pretty sure I saw some PDFs on Sinar's site for the packages, so I can look at that. Interestingly, it seems that Capture One would actually be an option, even for Sinar backs.

    Do you use Exposure?
    Carsten - Website

  20. #20
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Anyway, It seems that the only difference between the leaf 22 and the 54S is the speed. Or is there anything I am missing?

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    I am also a 54LV owner, and while I have not had it very long, I find that it works quite well. I agree that Sinar's mount adapter system is nice to have, but it is not the kind of thing you can really change on location or quickly and easily. It is a fairly delicate operation, given that there is nothing covering the giant, extraordinarily expensive sensor as you fiddle around it with a screwdriver. Again, the adapters for Sinar cameras are not all that expensive (600 or so for the Hy6 one), but for other makes it is inexplicably double. The V mount lists at 1800 USD, but is "on sale" currently at Calumet for a mere 1500. This is for what is essentially a piece of milled aluminum (very precisely milled, I will give them that) with three screw holes in it. For the same price, you could get a Canon 50D with a lens. Anyway, rant over.
    I have found the Sinar back to be quite reliable and once you get used to the interface, it is not difficult to operate. It is not entirely intuitive, but once you learn it, it operates well. The internal storage and battery are nice. The screen...well...probably would have been better left off. It is useful for demonstrating the histogram and for the backs interface. Beyond that it does more harm than good. It is comically bad. Best not to look at your shots on it, or you will think you missed the shot, when in fact you have done just fine.

    In terms of working with the files, I don't really use Sinar's software for much. I just open it to convert the files to DNG, and then take them to lightroom. Capture One is another option. The Live View aspect allows you a good focus aid, but it works quite poorly in contrasty light (for example, photographing someone next to a window) or in low light. In the contrasty situations, it will blow out entirely and take the rest of the image with it, and in low light it gets very noisy. This is not like the live view you are used to on 35mm cameras. It is most useful in a studio setup where you have a lot of modeling lights and you have a normal contrast range. If you are mainly shooting untethered, this will not be an issue for you.

    In the field, I have found the 54LV to be excellent -- it has pretty good battery life, and in the cold weather I have shot in, it did not skip a beat. The files have a great deal of flexibility in processing and great resolution. I will leave the rest to Graham, as he has a lot broader experience with it than I do.
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Good info Stuart, thanks for sharing it!

    It seems all digital backs have their own unique idiosyncrasies, and it is a great resource for folks to have a place where they investigate and discuss the significance and work-arounds. For example, in the case of Live-View --- while it may not be perfect, at least you have it available to begin with!
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Precisely. And it works quite amazingly with the Hy6. You just set the Hy6 controls to their red dot (it is an option), and eXposure will let you control essentially all aspects of the camera from the computer. With autofocus lenses, everything can be operated entirely remotely. You just click the mouse and it will autofocus. You can turn to manual and step the focus in very small amounts, obviously all the things like continuous shooting, shutter speed, aperture, ISO, depth of field preview...all of these things can be controlled remotely from the computer. It is a pretty interesting setup.
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Do you use Exposure?
    Yes, I usually shoot tethered and Exposure works well there.
    I then use Lightroom to generate web galleries for the client.
    I either use Exposure or ACR or Lightroom to process the RAW, depending on my mood

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    The screen...well...probably would have been better left off. It is useful for demonstrating the histogram and for the backs interface. Beyond that it does more harm than good. It is comically bad.
    Yes, I know what you mean. I use it only to check the histogram and basic composition. But before you scare people off the back, my friend with a Phase P30 was jealous of the quality of the Sinar LCD when we had our backs side by side. The Phase was is even worse. I hope all new backs come with a VGA screen like the eSprit 65. No more excuses.

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    The Phase Plus backs are much better than there older backs , seen them side by side in San Juan big difference. I don't know about the newer Sinar backs but was not impressed with one David had in PR which i think was a 75 something but not sure, he did upgrade that back though. I may get a look at the new eSprit 65 next week though. I know a lot of folks complain about the LCD's and i understand it but for some reason i don't view it that bad at all. You want to really see you need to be tethered anyway. Horses for courses i guess
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Precisely. And it works quite amazingly with the Hy6. You just set the Hy6 controls to their red dot (it is an option), and eXposure will let you control essentially all aspects of the camera from the computer. With autofocus lenses, everything can be operated entirely remotely. You just click the mouse and it will autofocus. You can turn to manual and step the focus in very small amounts, obviously all the things like continuous shooting, shutter speed, aperture, ISO, depth of field preview...all of these things can be controlled remotely from the computer. It is a pretty interesting setup.

    This does sound interesting from your computer seat. C1 i am limited to really just shooting and no control speed , aperture and such. I know this is handy for some folks doing product work
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You want to really see you need to be tethered anyway. Horses for courses i guess
    I agree. It's no big deal to bring a laptop on location and it is a hundred times better than any on-back screen.

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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    My intention is not to scare people away from the back, but it is to call it as I see it. I have never seen an LCD as bad as the one in the Sinar. I had a digital point and shoot in 2002 that was light years better. To simply say it is bad is not to adequately describe it, and if the LCD is something that is important to your work, you will be better off with one of the newer Sinar backs, a Leaf, or with carrying a laptop with you wherever you go. I am used to film, so the lack of an LCD doesn't bother me very much. I will say though, I completely, 100% truthfully do not understand how that LCD made it past beta testers. I have seen Phase backs before, but I don't remember them being that bad. I am so glad that they have put it behind them with the VGA screen for the eSprit 65. As you said, no more excuses. If you are going to do something, do it right.
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    BTW something I was not so aware of and got from David McRitchie in a e-mail yesterday . Sinar's and Broncolor in the US can be had through Samy's, B&H, Calumet, PPR and Fotocare. Let's not forget David either at the Sinar office and there crew in NJ. Obviously pricing and such no matter what is posted check with these places to see what the final number is you write on the check. This goes for any of these systems. Posted prices are one thing but what you can work out is another.
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Definitely...I paid about 10,000 dollars less than list price for a kit that consisted of a brand new body and a mint back that had only been used for a few jobs. (got mine from Jack Strobel at Calumet). There is no substitute for picking up the phone and talking to people. Some prices are set in stone, others are extremely flexible.
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    Re: Emotion 22LV vs. Leaf aptus 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitor View Post
    Hi,
    I have an offer of those backs more or less at the same price. ( Sinar+adapter vs. Leaf refurbhised with contax interface. )
    both have its pros and cons. What's your personal opinion about ?.
    regards
    Aitor my suggestion would be to try both side by side and since Ingrafic are the distributors for both Sinar and Leaf in Spain, this should be fairly easy for them to do.

    Try them in your "environment" and check the provided software along with your chosen raw conversion software, be it ACR, Lightroom, Aperture or whatever.

    Also ask about the future value in case you would like to move up down somewhere down the line and about the service and support should something go wrong.

    Good luck and enjoy

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