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Thread: What's an IQ180 worth?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    What's an IQ180 worth?

    Just curious to hear from folk in different parts of the world... I am selling in the FS/WTB section a (just) still in warranty lightly used IQ180 and have dropped the price steadily over the past couple of weeks. There has to be a clearing price, but the market is so opaque that I just can't tell where it is. Any opinions?

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Just like anything else in this world an item is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. Only a ready and willing buyer will tell you what your back is worth. I think that the IQ180 is the only current series back to own and only for large printing. Good luck.....

    Victor

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Sometimes it takes a while to find the right buyer, it may not be that the price is too high. Also, maybe many are waiting on possible price drops on new MF gear due to recent DSLR developments and are a bit afraid to act just now.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    somewhere between 20-25k maybe? I know, it hurts, but MFDB is a money loosing game ... we all know that

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    I think you'd struggle to sell one for over $30K anywhere. I was in the market for a digital back recently, and ended up buying a 180 off ebay from the US to be shipped to the UAE.

    Shipping with insurance was around a grand. Import duty was 5% - I would guess for most places in the world, duty/taxes would be considerably more than that.

    You have to take into consideration the total cost to your buyer.

    This is also a very small market. I'd be amazed if private sales of 180's across the world number more than a handful a month. If you wanted to shift one quick, I reckon you'd have to put it out there to the lower end of the 20-25k range. USD, not GBP.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Off topic, but just curious. What's the main reason to sell IQ180?
    May I ask your impression about the digital back regarding image quality?
    If you can, ...especially compared with P65+?
    Since I'm using P65+ with a tech camera and Hassel H2, I'm curious about IQ180...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Thanks for the input all!

    @Studio347, the reason I am selling is that I just have too much gear and now the D800e has joined the stable it is already covering some of the bases that the IQ had before. I have always utterly hated the Phamiya DF body anyway and my technical kit is a Cambo with SK 35XL which, on the IQ180 is limited to only very moderate movements.

    Bottom line, it will gather dust. It is certainly better than the p65+ both in terms of resolution, image quality and useability. And I had the 65+ and the 45+ before that. But with the Nikon covering 95% of the SLR style bases and the SK 35 needing replacement with a very very expensive roddenstock for useful landscape work, I just feel like simplifying and hoping that the extra flexibility of the Nikon system will more than make up for the smaller percentage of the time when I feel I need MF.

    Also, I am just fed up with running so many systems and having a camera cupboard that looks better stocked than my dealership. And I want now to focus on one system, get a range of the best glass, learn it all inside out and hope to benefit from that too. FWIW I just sold my M9 too...

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Tim, I think the issue with your IQ180 is that there are a few UK Phase dealers selling used or ex-demo units with longer warranty (4 years) for £18K + VAT (without haggling). If like myself and many other business purchasers you are exempt from VAT, your £20K is on the high side and pro's would just go straight to the dealer for piece of mind.

    I know you could very probably find an amateur to buy your back who would obviously save money over going to a dealer and paying the listed price including VAT but I imagine the number of Am's with that much to spend is considerably smaller that pro's wanting to upgrade/jump in.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    I think this will depend on your patience too. Someone will buy it eventually for a good fair price but if your in a hurry for whatever reason than a deep discount will help sell it quicker. But if you need a number a really good price is about 32k US. Discounted for quick sale about 27k US. Really a matter of what your willing to accept. Some folks just want to walk away and take a loss, some will stick it out for the best price they can get. Honestly just a thought and opinion Tim and obviously you can ignore it. Go to your dealer drop down into a IQ 160 and get more tech cam functionality. I just did a test with my 140 and D800 and the tech cam resolution output with these Rodie's and Schneiders in the wides is unmatched. It's close but if you still want the best there is a tech cam is the best option. Heck you can even drop to a IQ 140 and still be ahead. I did and wide angle work it's the tech cam . I'm torn too but that's really the facts of it. Good luck.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    richard.L
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Delay has its cost, too.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Thanks again Gareth and Guy.

    I guess I am currently keen to divest of all the DF gear, body and glass, since in the studio I find the D800E so much more useable even without tethering, and because I don't need very often at all to make bigger than 40" prints.

    I would quite like to keep a MFDB for landscape but the value of the 180 in comparison to the frequency of usage is silly, and also my current 35XL, a lens I love, is only good with no or tiny movements on the 180.

    I guess aside from a sale (and if I do sell it'll be quick and at a knock-down price) I have two options:

    1) a forum member has offered a mint Aptus 12 plus cash for the 180. This might make it viable to go from the 35XL to the Roddie 32 and keep the same pixel count. I'm just not aware of how these Leaf backs do with LCC and so on.
    2) get a downgrade to a 160 or 140 and carry on with the 35XL.

    More questions than answers as usual!

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by richard.L View Post
    Delay has its cost, too.
    Agree that can come into play.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    After marketing one on ebay for the past 3-4 weeks and talking to many potential buyers worldwide, the going rate for a warranted IQ180 is about $25k USD. A dealer would probably get more, but the same back sold to a dealer for resale or consigned at a dealer, would be less. I just sold one for $24,900, payment terms were cash, this nets to $24,700 after ebay fee. Hope this helps.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    As a former P45+ user, who moved to the 160 but has also shot the 180, I found the difference (besides resolution) between the 160 and 180 for my work very very nominal. The DR difference between the 160 and P45+ is a huge step at least IMO. You can also verify this with the Dxomark results. Look at the P65+ at 89 and the 180 at 91. Not that great a gap. I am sure if you look hard enough you can find it, but for me the gap in DR wasn't worth the gap in price and I knew the 180 would be very picky with the tech camera lenses. One thing I have become a believer in is Dxomark scores. Especially with DR.

    I agree with Guy, if you want tech camera movements, then do consider a step down to the 160. You will easily get 10mm with your 35XL and maybe 12mm depending on the subject. With the 43XL, you can that that to 17mm and with the 60XL 30mm.

    I agree the 180 is the best in possible resolution, but when there are only a couple of pieces of glass that get you there (when shooting wide) that both cost over 10K U.S., I took the lesser route.

    Before you get rid of the 180, take up Guy's suggestion with a dealer and see if you can trade down to a 160. There are deals to be made right now for sure. But I can also fully understand your needs to scale back I am feeling that too and working along the same process with 12 years of Canon lenses and bodies.

    Even with the D800, I still like the look/feel of the 160/tech camera output and try to lead with it for most of my work.

    Paul

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Just curious to hear from folk in different parts of the world... I am selling in the FS/WTB section a (just) still in warranty lightly used IQ180 and have dropped the price steadily over the past couple of weeks. There has to be a clearing price, but the market is so opaque that I just can't tell where it is. Any opinions?
    Don't take this wrong. I'm no internet basher, and it's a tricky situation. I'm replying somewhat in confusion after reading all of the D800 vs IQ180 stuff.

    I would definitely not expect to sell it on GetDPI after the threads (that you have also participated in) telling everyone that you can get the same (or near) quality from a $5000 Nikon D800 setup as you get from a $50000 Phase. Who in the world would buy an IQ180 during that conversation?

    I would try to sell in a place where this discussion isn't going on yet. (eBay?) If this story passes and many realize that what they really want is top quality in resolution and color rendition (me) then the prices should stabilize. If everyone buys into the talk that there is virtually no difference, then I guess the IQ180 is worth around $5,000.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    I just did this test yesterday the 140 with SK 28 and D800 with 24mm lens . The IQ 140 still wins the day in terms of IQ. No real way of getting around it. This will come down to personal preference and what you want out of life. It is close but your going to have one heck of a time smoking one of the best lenses on the planet and the Rodies and Schneiders are just flat out unbeatable. Thats a given folks not sure what else to say about that. You want the absolute best glass on the planet than the tech cam lenses are it, I don't care what sensor you put behind it. The question of the day is do you want it or do you need to have it. As the buzzards are circling over your head. Yes the desert has many of them. ROTFLMAO

    I agree its tough and if its financial choices that need to be made than its even tougher. I know I'm living it but don't get me wrong I like having the horsepower in the Nikon. Problem is I like them both for different things and reasons.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Tim

    Photokina is not far from now and many guys who are willing and able to spend quite some money on new gear might want to wait and see what the photokina will bring .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I just did this test yesterday the 140 with SK 28 and D800 with 24mm lens . The IQ 140 still wins the day in terms of IQ. No real way of getting around it.
    Of course I agree, which is why I won't be selling my P65+ or Cambo anytime soon. Talk of virtual equality though is not going to help resale values in the short term.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Just curious to hear from folk in different parts of the world... I am selling in the FS/WTB section a (just) still in warranty lightly used IQ180 and have dropped the price steadily over the past couple of weeks. There has to be a clearing price, but the market is so opaque that I just can't tell where it is. Any opinions?
    Most recent sale on eBay was $24,900. As others have suggested, I'd estimate that you can get at least that amount for yours, given current market conditions.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    I think that one thing you could do is contact rental companies.
    Plenty of them in London, Paris and Milan.
    Rental companies would profit quite well renting a back at going rental prices if they can buy it cheaper from you.

    The real problem with reselling the top of the line gear is that it is way over priced to start with due to the small market and the sales model that Phase chose to go with.

    Another option would be to go back to your dealer and see if the dealer can work out a good deal for you buying other gear. IF you really want to expand your Nikon system that could be a way to go. If the dealer can make the profit on the new gear as well as some on re-selling the IQ180.

    Another thing you could do is look into the scientific and industrial imaging market.
    Start here:
    AdvancedImagingPro.com | Advanced Imaging: The very latest in imaging products, industries and solutions

    But one last thing....

    It is still top of the line and if Phase One were to finally come out with a really good body
    I think there would be renewed interest in the back. However that could be smothered if Canon were to come out with a high MP count and high DR camera. They certainly have the tilt shift lenses ready for a camera like that.

    Can you still purchase extended warranty on this back? If so that might be a good move. make it more appealing to a buyer, even at a slightly higher cost.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Can you still purchase extended warranty on this back? If so that might be a good move. make it more appealing to a buyer, even at a slightly higher cost.
    That's a good point. For that much money warranty might make the difference. Private sale for that much would make me very nervous. Warranty would alleviate that.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    I believe the warranty can be extended for a year for $1200.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by mesposito View Post
    That's a good point. For that much money warranty might make the difference. Private sale for that much would make me very nervous. Warranty would alleviate that.
    The one I sold includes a full year warranty, so in that sense it's really no different than buying a new back.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The one I sold includes a full year warranty, so in that sense it's really no different than buying a new back.
    Actually even better as it's had a real world field test.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    I can't believe that this thread is still going on.... its really silly. Tim, spend a thousand or so bucks on a warranty and put the thing on ebay with NR. It will sell and you will know what someone is willing to pay.

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    Super Duper
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Tim, I had an interested buyer in the UK I can refer to you. Not sure if he's still in the market or not.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    FWIW I just sold my M9 too...
    say it isn't so! Now that's sad.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Also, I am just fed up with running so many systems and having a camera cupboard that looks better stocked than my dealership. And I want now to focus on one system, get a range of the best glass, learn it all inside out and hope to benefit from that too. FWIW I just sold my M9 too...
    IMO that's a smart move. I have done the same to a certain point.
    For digital I am going with one system. Nikon D800E and a good handful of lenses. Small, fast and gives me for all practical purposes the quality of MFD.
    However it is ergonomically way better letting me concentrate on the subject, client and directing my shoots.

    However I have chosen to keep two film cameras too. Fuji GX680 and 8x10 Schneider/Sinar. These three systems complement each other so well and do not really overlap. I think that a combination of digital and film is far more empowering and fun than multiple digital systems. I just find that high end 35mm DSLR is just too close to medium format.

    Another reason why I think you are making a good choice is that Nikon offers so many different lens options. Not just focal length, but looks. The 85mm 1.4G for example has such a different look to the 105 macro or the tilt shift lenses.

    Today I spoke with a director of Photography and photographer. He has Leica digital, MF digital, a 35mm DSLR system as well as Fuji 670 and Sinar 4x5. His motion picture work is commercial whereas his photography is fine art. While he delves into all aspects of digital in the end he tells me that what works best is his Fuji GF670 around his neck and his 4x5 in the back of his car.

    I would not be surprised is after focusing on one digital system (that is a swiss army knife of modern photography) if you end up with a nice film camera to complement you digital. A different camera for something completely different.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Tim, I had an interested buyer in the UK I can refer to you. Not sure if he's still in the market or not.
    Yes please, I would be very pleased to talk to him and very grateful to you!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    I do like the idea but after forays into film in recent years (once into a Leica MP and once into 4x5) I discovered that the problem is processing and film stock. The films I grew up with now either don't exist or are so hard to get processed well and quickly by a third party at reasonable cost. After a few weeks fumbling in blacked out cupboards I gave up on each occasion but rather interestingly, I had one shot on the MP that created more unsolicited interest than anything I've ever done... Loads of people emailing to say that they just HAD to know how it was done...

    Hmmm...
    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    IMO that's a smart move. I have done the same to a certain point.
    For digital I am going with one system. Nikon D800E and a good handful of lenses. Small, fast and gives me for all practical purposes the quality of MFD.
    However it is ergonomically way better letting me concentrate on the subject, client and directing my shoots.

    However I have chosen to keep two film cameras too. Fuji GX680 and 8x10 Schneider/Sinar. These three systems complement each other so well and do not really overlap. I think that a combination of digital and film is far more empowering and fun than multiple digital systems. I just find that high end 35mm DSLR is just too close to medium format.

    Another reason why I think you are making a good choice is that Nikon offers so many different lens options. Not just focal length, but looks. The 85mm 1.4G for example has such a different look to the 105 macro or the tilt shift lenses.

    Today I spoke with a director of Photography and photographer. He has Leica digital, MF digital, a 35mm DSLR system as well as Fuji 670 and Sinar 4x5. His motion picture work is commercial whereas his photography is fine art. While he delves into all aspects of digital in the end he tells me that what works best is his Fuji GF670 around his neck and his 4x5 in the back of his car.

    I would not be surprised is after focusing on one digital system (that is a swiss army knife of modern photography) if you end up with a nice film camera to complement you digital. A different camera for something completely different.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    say it isn't so! Now that's sad.
    Don't worry, I kept ALL the glass. Someday soon someone will make a camera with focus peaking that really works with them...

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Don't worry, I kept ALL the glass. Someday soon someone will make a camera with focus peaking that really works with them...
    Photokina

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    M10 with all the useful bits I hope... hope hope hope... mind you, nothing will make the new generation 35 Lux focus in anything vaguely like a planar manner :-(

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    ... I had one shot (on film I presume) on the MP that created more unsolicited interest than anything I've ever done... Loads of people emailing to say that they just HAD to know how it was done...

    Hmmm...
    Funny you mention that.... nearly all my images that get me unsolicited praise from new clients and agencies are shot on film....

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Yup, this particular shot on film had a lot of very nearly whites in it and those soft shouldered roll-offs that are so hard to get in digital made it look unusual.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by richard.L View Post
    Delay has its cost, too.
    Too true - there's only three certain things in this world: death, taxes and that technology is going to get better and cheaper ... dang, think that was four.

    Around the $25k mark is, IMO, what a private sale of a non-VAW (Value Added Warranty) IQ180 is worth at the moment . A UK dealer has one listed for £19k, so @ 80% (for a private deal) = £15k = US$24k - which is roughly what one sold for on eBay just recently.

    Just out of interest, $25k is 57% of the new price at Calumet ($44k), so ... this would put a used, privately offered IQ160 with no VAW at $21k (Calumet new price: $37k), and a used IQ140 (Calumet new price: $22k) at $12.5k.

    A trade for an Aptus 12? Really? The reason I would love an IQ is for the screen, focus mask etc. - I just couldn't imagine giving that up and going back to the previous iteration of user interface, especially if you'd be using this on your Cambo. It'd be like giving up the 50" Digital HD TV for a 12" analogue TV with a cathode ray tube and an aerial on the roof. As they say, never go back ... or should that be, never go digital back? My, how we laughed.

    You might get more if you wait, and, say, a new body appears at Photokina, and there's an 'upsurge' in interest ... but I don't think so ... or the opposite happens and Canon launch their 150MP DSLR with 64 stops of dynamic range and a new 20-500mm f1.8 T/S lens. Ok that second part is a long shot, but you can bet your last buck that Canon has taken note of the phenomenal interest in the D800 and that a high MP/high DR camera is on the drawing board. I think there's a fundamental shift taking place right now, with many pros getting the quality they need without having to lumber around 100lbs of oversized and over priced gear ... and they can have a couple of back-up bodies as well (anybody have a back-up IQ180?).

    So, if someone offers you $25k for your IQ180, and you've made your mind up to sell, I'd think long and hard before I sent them packing. Maybe better to take a shower now, than a bath in 6 months time.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    All of this predication of Phase One's demise seem a bit like the reports of Twain's death. One would think that they have anticipated some of this. It will be critical to see something exciting from them at Photokina. I can't imagine they would not pull out all the stops, show or at least discuss something that will let their reign continue. But I would have thought we would have seen an M10 by now not just M9m.

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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting the demise of Phase One, or Hasselblad come to that.

    Rather, the days of these companies saying 'We've got a new product, the price is $50,000, give us your credit card as usual' maybe are on the way out. And about time too.

    That said, for all I know, Phase/Hasselblad sell 99% of all their imaging devices to government departments/large corporations/universities/retired venture capital CEOs etc. - in which case the price isn't such an issue, and they can merrily carry on doing what they've been doing for the last decade or so ... and happily ignore whining photographers like me.

  39. #39
    Super Duper
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    Re: What's an IQ180 worth?

    Technology marches on, but it marches more quickly in the larger markets. There are simply far more sensors being manufactured for high-end DSLRs than for medium format backs.

    A similar situation a few years ago: Apple was using IBM and Motorola PowerPC CPUs in their machines, but at only a small percentage of the total market, the engineering R&D budget was far lower than Intel. Intel was manufacturing CPU volumes which were many orders of magnitude larger than IBM/Mot. The technological development was far faster for Intel, with the exception of one short-lived period where IBM/Mot had a power and performance advantage. This was overcome within a few short months. Apple was having to spend engineering resources on elaborate water cooling solutions for their high-end machines, among other things. When Jobs switched Apple over to Intel (which itself was an absolutely amazing technical accomplishment) suddenly Apple was no longer fighting a clock speed battle against Windows machines, or fighting against a power advantage. They were able to level the playing field against Windows machines so it was no longer a case of creating elaborate marketing campaigns explaining how a lower clock speed could have better performance.

    Similarly, manufacturers of medium format sensors sell far fewer units than big guns in the consumer space, so the bar will move far more quickly in the DSLR market. It's inevitable that the performance will become closer and closer to larger sensors which simply cannot progress as fast because the medium format R&D budget is miniscule in comparison.

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