The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Going pro

fotografz

Well-known member
It was the other guy that said they do nothing for the commission, not me.

What I expect from any client is: treat me with respect and civility, take responsibility for your own decisions, and pay on time. I don't think that is too much to ask. Almost all my clients do it naturally.

Again my experience with US and UK agencies was fine. In Israel I've had some bad experiences. I do think that charging 30-50% on media buy is a contributing factor to the organizational culture of this industry.

I have a problem with stylists - the only ones that exist here charge an arm and a leg and also give the attitude that goes with it. This is because they all work in the advertising industry. If I want good styling for less than $1000 a day and with no attitude, I can just forget about it.
Israel sounds brutal ... glad I'm not trying to do business there. The only time I ran into that sort of aggravation was for a major French client. Cordial socially, but not so much on the business end.

Payments here in the US are on flexible scale. When smaller agencies produce larger TV jobs, 1/2 the money has to paid to the Production company up-front, and the balance before the images are released to the edit house.

I'm on a 30 day payment schedule with my clients ... but they are often quicker depending on their payment procedures internally. I just finished writing, shooting, and supervising the edit for three 30: TV spots and six 10: promo tags for a local client ... paid in full in 15 days. Fat vacation money! :)

Wedding, portraits and such are all paid up front before I do anything. I have a shoot coming up that requires stylists, and I just told the subject/client to secure the two stylists themselves after I approved the choice ... so the out-of-pocket cost is no issue.

Talent was always handled by the Ad Agency because most talent had to be SAG-AFTRA and follow their guidelines, which was then handled by a talent paying firm based on the media run.

Sorry for tagging you with the "do nothing" quote ... but what I said still stands, regardless of who said it.

-Marc
 

dick

New member
...it is the ones who remain innovative, creative, positive and flexible that flourish,
...This is a creative process right up until the media runs, and change is part of the process. How one handles that is one aspect of being a "Professional".

Stay positive, be upbeat, never stop growing, always look for pony in the room full of horse crap ... the pony is ALWAYS there for those who look for it. :thumbs:

Marc
Like I was saying, do not make a rigid plan and stick to it, plan for flexibility and versatility, keep an eye on the competition and the market, try to find and unfulfilled market.

I would regard any photography done for commercial purposes as professional, so this includes Estate Agents that make a complete mess of photographing your house, so, when I sold house, I took the photos myself - with a cheap Point-and-shoot.

I think that more "professional" photography gets done, but much of it not very "professionally", and not by full-time professional photographers.

I took the photos for my wife's website with my GH2, as it works sort-of OK in ambient light, and saved me setting up my studio flash system.
 

Dustbak

Member
That was me Marc and in that same sentence I also mentioned I have no objection to the agencies that do put fees on top of mine when they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. None whatsoever, I work with several that I know do (I also know how much). These agencies, do a lot of work I never see but is very beneficial to me (think project management, traffic, client pampering, debt collection, etc..). These also pay me on time mostly, in which they take on the risk of debt collection. Again, I have absolutely no objection of an agency adding to my fee.

On the other hand, which is what I mentioned, I notice a seemingly growing number of agencies that are; shall we say different in this area? These I am referring to. I am not trying to be negative in any sort of way but this is what I have experienced with a number of agencies over the last couple of years.

In no way did I categorically say agencies do nothing for the fees they are charging for 3rd party services.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Dick -- I do not really have an opinion on whether you can do this (largely because I know nothing of your market, nor your skills and preparation etc), but I really have to question why? You say you are in poor health and retired. You have extremely expensive equipment, so you are probably not in dire fiscal need to make money from photography. What gives? Why bother? Why not just make the kind of photography you want to make, clients be damned?
 

GMB

Active member
Oh, I wouldn't be put off by some anecdotal cynical posts regarding the state of professional photography.

I find it very interesting that my positive posts here go somewhat ignored, and the focus is on how bad it is. In a bad economy, it is always tough ... and it is the ones who remain innovative, creative, positive and flexible that flourish, while the cynics either pine for the old days, do something else, or are forced out of business ... and then bitch about it being someone else's fault.

Plus I've innovated a fresh portrait category that is tons of fun and physically sustainable as I phase out the more grueling wedding stuff, which I loved doing. I am also advising some professional photographers and advanced enthusiasts on lighting techniques and/or creative thinking ... one of which whom just landed major employment for an international industrial expediting company.

Stay positive, be upbeat, never stop growing, always look for pony in the room full of horse crap ... the pony is ALWAYS there for those who look for it. :thumbs:

Marc
Marc,

I am not at all put off by anything here--I am just realistic, realizing that being a professional photographer is hard work and that there is a big difference whether you shoot for your personal fun or have to deliver to paying client. Being 51, I have probably arrived at the peak of my lawyer career with, if I want, another good 10-15 years ahead. And since i basically enjoy what I am doing, it would not make sense to switch profession.

Having said this, selling some of my works to collectors would give me immense satisfaction, not because of the additional income but simply because someone is willing to pay for my works. Likewise, I like the artistic challenge to create a consistent body of work, or to approach a subject in a systematic manner. It forces you to think and develop your skills.

I also see a lot of attraction in doing (paid) portrait work--and if I would be based anywhere near you Marc, I would certainly like to come and meet and learn artificial lightning from you, as I find your posts about this very inspiring. I also live next to a professional who does a lot of portrait work recently and exhibits the results in his shop. Frankly, it the technical and artistic quality of his shots is rather poor, and it wouldn't take much to do better. However, I understand from talking to him that his business is booming, which again proofs the point that clients probably do not care.

Finally, I think that the business is very different in Europe compared to the US. For example, we don't have the senior shots, and I never heard someone forking out 4-5k for a wedding.

Anyway, I think this is a great thread and I thank you and all the others for their contributions.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,

I am not at all put off by anything here--I am just realistic, realizing that being a professional photographer is hard work and that there is a big difference whether you shoot for your personal fun or have to deliver to paying client. Being 51, I have probably arrived at the peak of my lawyer career with, if I want, another good 10-15 years ahead. And since i basically enjoy what I am doing, it would not make sense to switch profession.

Having said this, selling some of my works to collectors would give me immense satisfaction, not because of the additional income but simply because someone is willing to pay for my works. Likewise, I like the artistic challenge to create a consistent body of work, or to approach a subject in a systematic manner. It forces you to think and develop your skills.

I also see a lot of attraction in doing (paid) portrait work--and if I would be based anywhere near you Marc, I would certainly like to come and meet and learn artificial lightning from you, as I find your posts about this very inspiring. I also live next to a professional who does a lot of portrait work recently and exhibits the results in his shop. Frankly, it the technical and artistic quality of his shots is rather poor, and it wouldn't take much to do better. However, I understand from talking to him that his business is booming, which again proofs the point that clients probably do not care.

Finally, I think that the business is very different in Europe compared to the US. For example, we don't have the senior shots, and I never heard someone forking out 4-5k for a wedding.

Anyway, I think this is a great thread and I thank you and all the others for their contributions.
"Clients don't care" until something "perceptually" better comes along at the same price = value. A lot of that is social interaction and good business promotion. I think the social aspect is the most important part. If you get into a certain social circle, you tend to get circulated through that group, which then extends to each respective person's circle of friends and family in the same or similar socio-ecomonic strata. Birds of a feather flock together.

I got into wedding work because Art Directors, Designers and Writers I worked with liked my personal B&W candid street work, and wanted their wedding shot that way. I started by telling them that I shoot what I want and pick the pictures they get, including for the album. They agreed, and I still work that way. I worked that group for almost a decade getting referrals on top of referrals ... about 15 to 20 weddings a year, which was all I could do while also working in the Advertising business.

Frankly, I never went full-time until I retired 3 years ago. Like you. I was at my peak in my chosen career ($$$$). The difference was that my career was in a related field, and I landed many commercial shoots because of those direct contacts.

Perhaps the issue here is defining "Pro" and equating it to full time income source verses supplemental. While the technical definition would be majority income from photography, I look at it differently ... from the consumer's perspective, they are paying a professional at professional rates, so I am one. I formed a LLC and keep books on it while monitoring my P&L. The trick is to be consistently good at what you chose to do. My lighing assistant hired me to shoot his daughter's wedding (with her blessing) ... when they reviewed the work the Bride was over-joyed, and her Dad quipped ... "He does it every single time, every time!"

For someone like you, it would seem that you have access to a potential cliental in certain social circles that, if approached carefully, could provide a controlled source of paying work in areas of portraiture. I have a friend in the medical supply business, that leveraged that into shooting a lot of people related work when clinics and some practices started advertising.

At the very least, it helps pay for all the toys, and explorations into new areas. In recent years, I've spent as much or more on lighting gear than on cameras/lenses (except the Leica S2, which was my retirement gift to myself :)).

-Marc
 
Top