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Going pro

dick

New member
Experience

I have done a little pro photography on and off over the last four decades, including a bit of child photography in the early seventies, all the brochure photographs (and a calendar shot) for my employer (a mower manufacturer) in the late 1970s. (They wanted monochrome and colour alternative for each shot, so that was a good excuse to get a Hasselblad) …and some “table top” product/catalogue photography, including engraved glass and gold and silver (the type of work that the local pros could not tackle!)

Concept

There are tens of thousands of budding photographers out there trying to start businesses with point-and-shoots and £3k redundancy money, so I aim to tackle the type of work you cannot do well with a point-and-shoot.

Business plan

Buy some kit and look for work. ¿This should be the other way round?

The trouble is that MFD view-camera kit with a set of good digital lenses and electronic shutters for no-touch DOF merge and remote use on a 10m tripod is not cheap... but I almost have enough to get started.

Pricing

Initially, with no track record, and no portfolio, I could not hope to get any money up front, and so I will make no charge for travelling expenses or my time, but just charge one tenth of what it would cost to hire the kit, or one tenth of what the customer would expect it would cost to hire the kit… ¿£20 or £30 per day?

By the time you have found the work and got paid for one job in five, this would be more like £20 or £30 per week… but at least you would be working towards having a portfolio!

Supply and demand would come into effect and prices would hopefully be increased when the diary gets full for a few weeks ahead.

Forecast

This system can work, and, after five years, when your wife has left you your house has been repossessed, you might be able to afford the rent on a two room flat, or, plan B, you live and work in an old van.

Reality

Unfortunately, all of the above is too ambitious, as I have a heart condition, and I cannot really hope to cope with the physical and mental stress of any work, so I am a hobbyist!

...but they might do some good at the hospital next month.

Has anyone had similar experience? or got any suggestions as to how I can improve the plan?
 

Dustbak

Member
In your case? Keep the day job,stay an amateur and continue to enjoy photography.

I have a very good business in photography, I think one of the main factors is that I have hardly ever photographed for free or for portfolio reasons. I think the whole 'portfolio' thing is a trap you should avoid. I see many aspiring pros doing this (including models, hairdo and make-up artists). Most of them never get around charging a decent fee for their work. get into the habit of charging for your work from the get go. A client that you do not charge, you will find you will never charge. In many cases they will value the work as much as they pay for it.

When you are not making any money on an assignment you just might as well be your own client and produce what you want to produce and enjoy photographic freedom that you will find very hard to find when photographing for others (unless you have gone to the level of being a renowned artists that is hired for his unique vision and is being granted total freedom which is not the case for most of us mere mortals).

Just thinking out loud here, are there any aspiring construction workers out there that are wiling to do my home to build their portfolio? :)
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
That´s it exactly. if you cannot make aliving from your work it´s a hobby. This is the definition of the german financial authorities and will apply if you want to deduct costs from a non existant turnaround..........:D

Work if someone pays you, work something else for a living if this is not enough. If your work does not draw more work because of the chain effect- forget it and have fun as an amateur.

regards
Stefan

In your case? Keep the day job,stay an amateur and continue to enjoy photography.

I have a very good business in photography, I think one of the main factors is that I have hardly ever photographed for free or for portfolio reasons.
I think the whole 'portfolio' thing is a trap you should avoid. I see many aspiring pros doing this (including models, hairdo and make-up artists). Most of them never get around charging a decent fee for their work. get into the habit of charging for your work from the get go. A client that you do not charge, you will find you will never charge. In many cases they will value the work as much as they pay for it.

When you are not making any money on an assignment you just might as well be your own client and produce what you want to produce and enjoy photographic freedom that you will find very hard to find when photographing for others (unless you have gone to the level of being a renowned artists that is hired for his unique vision and is being granted total freedom which is not the case for most of us mere mortals).

Just thinking out loud here, are there any aspiring construction workers out there that are wiling to do my home to build their portfolio?
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
I have strong (negative) feelings about people who enter any professional market with the idea that they will build their business by undercutting existing pros by some ridiculous percentage (or worse, shooting for free). Ultimately, it brings the entire industry down. And, in many cases, if I were a buyer, I would be very suspicious and think of the old saying: "you get what you pay for".

A local magazine focused on a nearby city has taken advantage of the fact that so many want to be published that they are willing to give their work away simply to see their name "in print". Consequently, the value of a photo for their cover (for example) is $0. They simply don't pay for photography regardless of the quality or experience of the photographer. They manage to get away with it every month for no other reason than there are so many shooters willing to participate.

If you are serious about going pro then you should recognize and value the hard work and talent of those who are already there. If you don't, how can you expect "clients" to recognize it?

I humbly suggest that you do some research into the going professional rates in your area and strive to reach a fair price point that reflects your experience but also supports the future of the profession. It might even make you a better photographer. After all, if you aren't charging anything, you might not feel obligated to make a professional level of effort.

Good luck!
Tim
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Are you being facetious?

Laughed my bum off, because it is so true .... funny-tragic, but true.

If you are serious, then I can give you a perspective from someone on the other end who selects and buys photography.

2 key elements for starters:

1) Consistant talent. Not just talent, but talent that shows up in everything you shoot. I used to teach my younger Art Directors to look for the worst shot in a portfolio, because you might get that. If it is still great, then there is more upside than down in hiring that photographer.

2) Infrastructure. Not only gear (camera/lenses/lighting) and some studio space (yours or rented) which is a given, but a network of freelance PAs, camera assistants, prop-masters, location scouts, stylists, hair & Wardrobe people, producers, etc.

Pricing is dependent on #1 and 2 above. If you are talented and innovate new ideas you will make money, if you are like everyone else in your market you will not ... unless you want to sell photography by the bushel-basket at pennies on the pound and do all the labor yourself (see reality below)

As to your reality:

If you are to sick or crippled, get others to worry for you and to lug everything all over the place. It ain't the Generals out on the battlefield doing the slogging and dying.

Similar Experience?

Yep. I have a heart condition, a deformed knee that should have been replaced a decade ago, and a herniated disk that has me walking like Igor ... and have a paying portrait session tomorrow AM on my property ... a beefy boy will do the hauling and set up where I tell him, and be happy to be making any extra cash to feed his family. I'll frame the shot and pressed the shutter button ... then go back to my director's chair with umbrella and holder for my Starbucks ;) You do what you have to and just keep going.

Best of luck, (which is also part of the mix BTW).

-Marc
 

dick

New member
I have strong (negative) feelings about people who enter any professional market with the idea that they will build their business by undercutting existing pros by some ridiculous percentage.
The theory, out here in the sticks, is to do the work that the local pros think is "not in their normal line of work" or too difficult... My neighbour works in planning applications, and says he find it very difficult to get any photographic work done to an adequate standard.

I humbly suggest that you do some research into the going professional rates in your area and strive to reach a fair price point that reflects your experience but also supports the future of the profession. It might even make you a better photographer. After all, if you aren't charging anything, you might not feel obligated to make a professional level of effort.

Good luck!
Tim
I think it was Guy who said that he always aimed to exceed his customers' expectations by a wide margin - I think that is how you get reppeat business?

When I was doing some part-time work for my employer, much of the work was only an hour or so at a time, so the cost of getting a "pro" out from the local town for half a day would have been uneconomical, and I was working in their time and only charging £20 or so per film for the camera overheads (in the late 1970s)... would a pound a click cover the cost now?

One theory is to work for retail customers, photographing children, houses, classic cars, etc.

My wife uses a professional dance photographer who has not got a clue, and turns over about £2k for a day's work... and I have the advantage that I know and understand (the) children... I am a "child catcher" in that I work with my wife as an assistant gymnastics instructor.
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
Certainly every situation is different and even your definition of "professional" might be different from mine. However, it all sounds lovely "in theory" but to make a decent living by going full-time as a professional is when you suddenly discover the un-lovely bits.

If what you're suggesting is that you can produce a photo with your gear that's "good enough" and so make your boss/wife/friends happy that they saved a few dollars, then you're describing something other than becoming a full-time professional photographer. (in my opinion of course).

Tim
 

dick

New member
1) Consistant talent. Not just talent, but talent that shows up in everything you shoot. I used to teach my younger Art Directors to look for the worst shot in a portfolio, because you might get that. If it is still great, then there is more upside than down in hiring that photographer.
Yes - if the pictures a photographer puts in his portfolio are third rate - what is his normal standard?

A local photographer here with a cheap, awful digital camera had one or two good pictures in his portfolio...and they had been taken a decade or so previously with a film Hasselblad!

2) Infrastructure. Not only gear (camera/lenses/lighting) and some studio space (yours or rented) which is a given, but a network of freelance PAs, camera assistants, prop-masters, location scouts, stylists, hair & Wardrobe people, producers, etc.

Pricing is dependent on #1 and 2 above. If you are talented and innovate new ideas you will make money, if you are like everyone else in your market you will not ... unless you want to sell photography by the bushel-basket at pennies on the pound and do all the labor yourself (see reality below)

As to your reality:

If you are to sick or crippled, get others to worry for you and to lug everything all over the place. It ain't the Generals out on the battlefield doing the slogging and dying.

Similar Experience?

Yep. I have a heart condition, a deformed knee that should have been replaced a decade ago, and a herniated disk that has me walking like Igor ... and have a paying portrait session tomorrow AM on my property ... a beefy boy will do the hauling and set up where I tell him, and be happy to be making any extra cash to feed his family. I'll frame the shot and pressed the shutter button ... then go back to my director's chair with umbrella and holder for my Starbucks ;) You do what you have to and just keep going.

Best of luck, (which is also part of the mix BTW).

-Marc
I would like someone to work with me.

Photo-students are, I think, into glamour and fashion and not interested in commercial photography or Schiemplug? ...but I think that more people are using movements now?

There are some old boys in a local camera club who understand camera movements. But they are not any fitter or stronger than me.

One of my theories to specialise in macro, so I can work all day in the dry without having to lug much gear around.

I would hesitate to hire brawn, as photo-kit needs to be handled with care.

Many successful businesses have been started in broom cupboards.
 

dick

New member
Certainly every situation is different and even your definition of "professional" might be different from mine. However, it all sounds lovely "in theory" but to make a decent living by going full-time as a professional is when you suddenly discover the un-lovely bits.

If what you're suggesting is that you can produce a photo with your gear that's "good enough" and so make your boss/wife/friends happy that they saved a few dollars, then you're describing something other than becoming a full-time professional photographer. (in my opinion of course).

Tim
Many people (try to) take up photography because they have no job, and I am retired, so I am not thinking of giving up a good job to go pro-photo, and at my age and in my state of health "full-time" is not really an option.

One of the "unlovely bits" tends to be getting paid?
 

FredBGG

Not Available
Yep. I have a heart condition, a deformed knee that should have been replaced a decade ago, and a herniated disk.....
... then go back to my director's chair with umbrella and holder for my Starbucks .

-Marc
You have a heart condition and multiple skeletal joint problems and you drink Starbucks..... That's not a good combination at all.

Ditch the coffee my friend. The stuff is poison for your conditions. Worst of all the stuff they call coffee from Starbucks is not worth the harm it does you.

Drinking coffee on a regular basis starves your connective tissue, joints and is harmful to your circulation.

You are what you eat and drink. "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food” ― Hippocrates

I speak from direct experience.

When I was a toddler I had tuberculosis (thanks to a contaminated vaccine). Almost killed me. Pretty much lost the functionality of a lung
for life. Spent half my life getting sick as a dog many times a year. Bags of medication two three times a year. Persistent cough 365 days a year.
Knees and back were giving me trouble.

I finally came across a doctor that uses nutrition as his main instrument and herbal medicine as a support to that.
This was 13 years ago. Now at over 50 my blood work is like that of a healthy 25 year old. My cholesterol is 110.
Knees are strong and back just needs some yoga 2 to 3 times a week. I only have problems if I work sitting down to long.
I mountain bike (uphill off road) and kitesurf. No problem kitesurfing 10 foot surf in 30 mph winds for 4 to 5 hours at a time.
Last week I kitsurfed 7 days in a row. Two of those days were epic with 10 foot+ surf.
Best of all no more cough!!!!!! Even got more hair than I had 10 years ago..... that is actually a pain as I shave my hair every winter
to avoid the cold when kitesurfing in the winter.

First thing the doctor did was make me quit coffee and relegate it to a medication to use very occasionally.
I have been on the doctors advice a vegan for 13 years and feast away on food with no weight problems at all.

Just this week a colleague of mine had a severe high pressure scare and had to rush to hospital. He also has initial necrosis in his right knee.
I have been trying to convince him to get on a bike, ditch coffee, sodas and drinking, eat way less meat and cheese.
Hopefully this scare will put him on the right track.

Well Time to go and tweak my mountain bike... going mountain biking with some youngsters up and down the backbone trail
in the Santa Monica Mountains.
 
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JimCollum

Member
Frankly, your photographic skills will play a *very* minor part in your success. Have you successfully started and run a business before? If your business plan section is truly your business plan, then no.. you're not going to make it. Do a search and find out what a real business plan is. This document should be sufficient enough to hand to a Bank's loan officer and be able to obtain a business loan. does it include a study of your competition in the local area. do you know and understand *their* business model, and how you can compete. (if your expectation is that your competition is the P&S shooters that don't know any better, then you'll fail... Look at the most successful in your area.. can you compete with them?

Do you have savings about equal to 2 years of what you need to financially survive? (house payments, medical bills, food, clothing, gas, transportation.. and all related costs). If you need to buy equipment, do you have funds (in addition to the above savings.. not from it) to buy (or lease) 2 of each item you need? backup camera, lenses, lights.
If you're in a relationship or have a family, are they aware that what you plan on doing will keep you working 12 hours a day minimum, 7 days a week? (at least for a few years until your business starts making a profit.. then maybe you'll only work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week)

you say there are 10's of thousands of P&S shooters.. there are just as many high end DSLR shooters doing the same thing as the P&S shooters (and a good many MFD shooters as well).

You shouldn't really be asking us about any of this, since only a very small minority here are successfully running a photography business. You should be sitting down with a Bank Manager and running your numbers with them.

sorry to be a fun-suck, but given what you've written about what you want to do.. i'd have to agree with most others here.. keep it as a hobby.

jim


Experience

I have done a little pro photography on and off over the last four decades, including a bit of child photography in the early seventies, all the brochure photographs (and a calendar shot) for my employer (a mower manufacturer) in the late 1970s. (They wanted monochrome and colour alternative for each shot, so that was a good excuse to get a Hasselblad) …and some “table top” product/catalogue photography, including engraved glass and gold and silver (the type of work that the local pros could not tackle!)

Concept

There are tens of thousands of budding photographers out there trying to start businesses with point-and-shoots and £3k redundancy money, so I aim to tackle the type of work you cannot do well with a point-and-shoot.

Business plan

Buy some kit and look for work. ¿This should be the other way round?

The trouble is that MFD view-camera kit with a set of good digital lenses and electronic shutters for no-touch DOF merge and remote use on a 10m tripod is not cheap... but I almost have enough to get started.

Pricing

Initially, with no track record, and no portfolio, I could not hope to get any money up front, and so I will make no charge for travelling expenses or my time, but just charge one tenth of what it would cost to hire the kit, or one tenth of what the customer would expect it would cost to hire the kit… ¿£20 or £30 per day?

By the time you have found the work and got paid for one job in five, this would be more like £20 or £30 per week… but at least you would be working towards having a portfolio!

Supply and demand would come into effect and prices would hopefully be increased when the diary gets full for a few weeks ahead.

Forecast

This system can work, and, after five years, when your wife has left you your house has been repossessed, you might be able to afford the rent on a two room flat, or, plan B, you live and work in an old van.

Reality

Unfortunately, all of the above is too ambitious, as I have a heart condition, and I cannot really hope to cope with the physical and mental stress of any work, so I am a hobbyist!

...but they might do some good at the hospital next month.

Has anyone had similar experience? or got any suggestions as to how I can improve the plan?
 

dick

New member
Frankly, your photographic skills will play a *very* minor part in your success. Have you successfully started and run a business before? If your business plan section is truly your business plan, then no.. you're not going to make it. Do a search and find out what a real business plan is. This document should be sufficient enough to hand to a Bank's loan officer and be able to obtain a business loan.
jim
We have to decide what we can do, what people are wiling to pay you for and (lastly) what you want to do.... Most people decide what they want to do, and do it where they are in spite of local competition, demand or whatever.

There are a lot of incompetent photographers making a good living...

Pretending that you need a loan and talking to your bank would be a wonderful way of getting your act together, but they tend not to "advise" unless you are a potential customer for a loan... and do they (did they) just ask about security for the loan and leave you to rot?

My sister has a Master of Business Administration degree, and I emailed her a copy of "the plan."

I think there are proportionally many more MFD photographers in the USA than in the UK... I do not think there is one in the local (central) area professional photographic institution branch.
 

Valentin

New member
....

Business plan

Buy some kit and look for work. ¿This should be the other way round?

The trouble is that MFD view-camera kit with a set of good digital lenses and electronic shutters for no-touch DOF merge and remote use on a 10m tripod is not cheap... but I almost have enough to get started.

...
Hmmm ... that's not a business plan ... there is software out there that will walk you through all the steps to get a good business plan (at the end of which you might realize that spending that kind of cash in the HOPES you might recuperate <you will not MAKE> some money).

Gear doesn't make you money; (paying) clients do.
 

JimCollum

Member
My sister has a Master of Business Administration degree, and I emailed her a copy of "the plan."

I think there are proportionally many more MFD photographers in the USA than in the UK... I do not think there is one in the local (central) area professional photographic institution branch.

you give the plan as


"Business plan

Buy some kit and look for work. ¿This should be the other way round?"

if this is in fact your plan, you should expect hysterical laughter from a Business Major. Send it to someone who has no emotional stake in you and your hobby.

Being a MFD shooter is completely irrelevant. that's like me saying i'll be successful because I use strobes.

being a photographer isn't what a successful photography business is about. Being a poor photographer, and a good businessperson means you have a decent shot at success. Being an excellent photographer with no business skills means you have close to 0% chance. Those lousy photographers who you mention are making money aren't doing so because of their photography skills.. it's their business skills.

Your best chance is if you have both excellent photography and business sense.

You don't even seem to want an actual dialog about it here... you just insist you'll make it work.. 'somehow'

If you want a dialog, post your real business plan, post your portfolio
 

FredBGG

Not Available
Frankly, your photographic skills will play a *very* minor part in your success.
jim
Sorry but I disagree with this notion.

Photographic skills are the foundation of photography. Good business skills are important as a support to your photographic skills, but useless if your photographic skills are not there.

Larger budgets come from clients with agencies or in house art directors. They recognize good images and pay for them.

I got my most important bookings from images clients saw. I had never met them or marketed myself to them.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Fred and all

People are supposing a photographer needs to be an artist first. This may be a possible status, but I know Much more successful photographers who are not ! Think about School photography. Portrait shops for Passports, Industry photography for documentation, technical photography for forensics etc.pp.

I always pretended I was working as a craftsman doing service to customers.
My Idea of Art may have been part of this service, but I always tried to get the impression as the customer wanted it (or I thought he needed it to the best usage on purpose)

This is an old discussion. But the artists are the minority, believe me. Skills - YES. Business sense - definitely DOUBLE YES !

regards
Stefan
 

dick

New member
I think the OP is being funny - don't take it so seriously!
There is many a true word spoken in jest.

you give the plan as


"Business plan

Buy some kit and look for work. ¿This should be the other way round?"
This statement is, perhaps, misleading, as, as I said in the original post:

"The trouble is that MFD view-camera kit with a set of good digital lenses and electronic shutters for no-touch DOF merge and remote use on a 10m tripod is not cheap... but I almost have enough to get started."

I have been accumulating MFD view camera equipment for about a decade.

Any business plan must start with an idea or a concept, which is then elaborated into a Business Plan, including detailed forecasts of costs, turnover and profit for years ahead, based on detailed research into supply and demand for the product or service offered.

Being a MFD shooter is completely irrelevant.

Your best chance is if you have both excellent photography and business sense.
What is, hopefully, relevant, is that I am trying to find and supply unsatisfied demand: this is at least as much to do with technical know-how as having the "right kit". If I was, at this stage, thinking about "giving up my day job" or investing a great deal (more) money in an enterprise on which I rely to keep a roof over my head, then a business plan would be a good idea... including research into the supply and demand for the type of service I am planning to offer.

Business plan or no business plan, I will not be able to do much in my present state of health without finding someone to work with - but no-one would take me seriously if I did not have a serious business plan.
You don't even seem to want an actual dialog about it here... you just insist you'll make it work.. 'somehow'

If you want a dialog, post your real business plan, post your portfolio.
The portfolio I would like to post is mostly the pictures I will be able to take when I have the last few pieces I have ordered to complete the kit.

...but one thing I will soon be able to do is to re-photograph (digitise) some of my old film work which you might find interesting... before we had the instant feedback of digital, photographing silver, gold and engraved glass was not easy.

On the "right" side of the pond, it will soon be bed-time, and we are giving a party for 30 tomorrow, so I may not post (much) for 24 hours.
 

dick

New member
Fred and all

People are supposing a photographer needs to be an artist first. This may be a possible status, but I know Much more successful photographers who are not ! Think about School photography. Portrait shops for Passports, Industry photography for documentation, technical photography for forensics etc.pp.

This is an old discussion. But the artists are the minority, believe me. Skills - YES. Business sense - definitely DOUBLE YES !

regards
Stefan
Yes, Stefan... I am a qualified and experienced Engineer, and I hope that my technical expertise will enable me to tackle assignments that most photographers would prefer not to get involved with.

¿What is the terminology?

¿Photo-technical solutions provider?

My other neighbour works for a Formula 1 racing team as a non-destructive test engineer... and the glamour of Formula 1 is what many photographers would like to get into, but I was the field test and development engineer for the mower company I worked for... so I know a bit about it, and he has let me have some broken bits of carbon-fibre and laser cured sintered titanium for me to photograph for my portfolio... watch this space.
 

shlomi

Member
I don't think the market is hugely interested in movements per se.
Very few who aren't professional photographers even know what that is.
I don't think being super technical is a sound base for a business plan.

You must produce pictures that will make people go wow.
It doesn't need to be the advertising people, but even if a factory or small business owner, or a secretary are impressed with your pictures, they might hire you.

It is not necessary to be an artist to be a working and earning photographer, but the pictures need to be appealing and not merely accurate.

In your place I would consider refresher courses in composition and Photoshop. That plus the technical stuff might be enough for a business.

I don't think you will be able charge full price from the get go.
Starting up you do need to build a portfolio and that is a gradual process.
Generally working for free is a no no, but without a portfolio it is practically impossible to get work, and the quality of the work you will get depends on the quality of your portfolio.

It is true that charging low invites bad attitude from clients. If you do a job that serves your portfolio needs directly, then you can do it for free. Otherwise you should always charge a decent price.

Based on my experience as a past engineer now making my living as a technical photographer.
 
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