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Thread: Example for a future MF Design

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Example for a future MF Design

    Blackmagic Design: Blackmagic Cinema Camera

    This is exactly what I wish for being built with a larger chip - at least 24x36, better 40x55 or maybe larger.

    Opinions Gentlemen ?

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    $2995

    So when Phase eventually release the DFII, do we think it will retail at a similar figure?

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    The second video has the most interesting sentence:

    It´s an open system allowing about all lenses and peripherals.
    the pro editing software worth 1500 $ is free included in the package.

    hmmmm......
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Actually that is pretty cool and we need to remember they will not make these for film anymore so you don't need a shutter and you don't need a mirror box. So a design like that is very feasiable in the future . With that goes a viewfinder and you need CMOS and Live View. Honestly as nice as that may sound but you take my viewfinder away I'm hanging it up. I don't want to shoot video cams that make still images. But thats me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    One of the features I also really like is the SSD slot ! Well this idea is so obvious that I had asked myself for some time when someone would do it.
    SSD´s are now cheaper than these ultraexpensive CF cards (Probably the most overpriced products ever!) and probably 10-50 times faster plus up to 1 TB now (around 1000 $ OWC) . You will not need to shuffle your work to a backup drive or copy the files to your laptop, when you come home just do a speedcopy to your NAS or Raid and or you can even edit directly from the SSD.

    While I don´t like the actual screen resolution of the Blackmagic, I think using a 5" screen as AMOLED with the same resolution like an Apple retina as the Iphone will be around 2000 Pix and enable a large nice loupe giving you probably the best viewfinder one can imagine. Make this even tiltable and I believe the optical viewfinders will be forgotten before their name is spelled for the last time.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Something else to water the mouth:

    Remote Control:1 x 2.5mm LANC for Rec Start/Stop, Iris Control and Focus Control

    Computer Interface:Thunderbolt port for capture of RAW video and audio.

    USB 2.0 mini B port for software updates and configuration
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Well, I am a still photographer and that would simply be a horrible design. You could never hold it. Vertical framing would even be worse with the clunky way they designed the camera. In short, yuck.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    While the design is good for video, possibly is not that great for stills but regardless, what I get from this is a small company (similar size to P1?) can release a new design of camera and like no other currently available on the market that has taken several years and much £€$ in R&D costs with an, all be it cheap 4/3 sensor included, to be released in July for a little as $2995.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    It's very similar to what I'd like to see the HCam develop into

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Me too Gerald, but of course with modifications. I would love to have a rotating sensor like the Aptus R models. And - the software needs of course to be photographic. I think a decision must be made. It should be possible to also take a video if "needed" but only occasional. There also should be Wifi (which is probably impossible with video right now but very much usable with single images - even large ones).

    there is so much more, but I want to listen first what other people say.....

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Isn't CMOS required for this type of design? And large size CMOS is a no-go, isn't it? Just too expensive to develop?

    What can we do if we must stay with CCD for large sensors? Better cooling could give us more DR and long exposures. But a decent live view or video and such stuff seems basically impossible. With these limitations I still think it is possible to be a bit creative though.

    I have photographed quite some landscapes with a 5Dmk2 using live view, and now I'm using an Aptus 75 on a Linhof Techno with sliding back (i e focusing and composing on ground glass). Do I miss the live view? Well, yes, but the ground glass is not too bad either. What would be a very useful tool with the GG is an electronic 30x loupe with external LCD. There are such things, I may try it, but they are probably not light-sensitive enough since they are designed for lighting up the subject with LED light. I've used a DSLR with a macro lens to test the concept, and focusing gets as good as live view.

    Another thing I have noted is that a small LCD on a camera is not really as good as it could be concerning image review. It does happen I get surprises when I look at images back home on the computer, it also happened with the 5Dmk2. Putting a tilted focal plane exactly right when photographing a flower is a typical example when things may go wrong despite careful look at live view and review. I think the problem is that the image you see on the camera screen is too small and too low resolution.

    Immediate display of shot pictures on a high resolution tablet would be a more useful tool than the live view. If I could use the same tablet as display for that light-amplifying electronic loupe my current Techno system would exceed my DSLR in ease of use.

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    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    The camera looks great. I don't know much about video but how a 2432 x 1366 video camera be any good. I don't understand.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Antonio

    when you watch the videos, there is a part where they explain that the 2,5 k resolution will be downsampled for postproduction. This will improve noise, moiree, smoothness and some more. I am not a video specialist but this sounds pretty convincing to me.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    This concept must be making a few people at RED quite nervous....

    with 800 native iso it might not be as versatile as some of the Canon/ Panasonic/ Sony cameras out there though and will make it a bit difficult to get that shallow DOF that everyone is so crazy about these days...unless it's got some built-in ND filtering magic...
    Last edited by yaya; 11th June 2012 at 02:48.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Hi Yair

    Wasn´t there a choice of 400, 800 and 1600 Iso ?

    Well what is probably most tempting is the price- especially if you take into account that a full color grading DaVinci License is in the package. So the camera is actually cheaper than a 5D MK2.

    I love the SSD Idea ! Also the downsampling for getting better image quality and using standard exchangeable lenses.With the canon mount they can use about any old nice lenses Zeiss,Contax, Leica......... as we do it with the HCam.

    Finally the industry is moving into the right direction !

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Where are all the manual dials/controls? I wouldn't be interested in a camera where I have to dive into menus for everything.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Daniel

    if you want full remote control this is the only way, manual dials mean- these dials probably will not be set remotely - or you need to do these double.

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    Stefan
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Interesting how different our expectations are.

    I think the thing looks horrible. How do you hold such thing (even when you put it on a tripod).
    To me it looks like a mixture between a blown up I-Phone and one of those small portable Canon printers.
    I wouldnt call it a camera - I would call it "image-computer".
    I bet it gets a design price but I dont think I would understand how to get it under control for a fluent and intuitive workflow.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    And if we don't want remote control? Stefan, I don't think you understand your customer base. I need a camera that is going to work in the field. Something I have to operate in all kinds of condition including while wearing gloves. Not something that need lots of power and something where I can see settings while the camera is hanging around my neck. I need to change exposure mode, ISO, EV, AF/MF, shutter speed, and aperture quickly and easily. Now if you think sales are in fair-weather cameras that are going to sit in studios on top of a tripod stand and operated through a computer, that would be this camera. That is a very narrow market. I certainly would not be a customer, for either the location or studio work I do.

    Naturally, dials do not mean the camera cannot be controlled remotely. The dial positions could be overridden by the remote software. It would just take a little imagination on the designer's part.

    You seem to like to slam the industry for not making what you think is the ideal camera. When do we see a new Hcam showing how things should be done?
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    @ Shashin

    HCam has done a camera that holds wideangle oneshot worldrecord (digitally) for production cameras (probably there are military cams who can do even more, but you will have a hard time buying them) , that´s not so bad for a first start. We also have a first level control for all functions which is significantly easier than anything else I know. And yes I am thinking about how our future versions shall look like. This is the question I have asked in my first posting. Thank you for your application.

    A future HCam also needs funding, you are welcome to make proposals on how to raise these. HCam is a factor 100 smaller than Phase or Blad, nevertheless we have made an independent MF camera.

    Greetings from Lindenberg
    Stefan
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    @ Shashin

    HCam has done a camera that holds wideangle oneshot worldrecord (digitally) for production cameras (probably there are military cams who can do even more, but you will have a hard time buying them) , that´s not so bad for a first start. We also have a first level control for all functions which is significantly easier than anything else I know. And yes I am thinking about how our future versions shall look like. This is the question I have asked in my first posting. Thank you for your application.

    A future HCam also needs funding, you are welcome to make proposals on how to raise these. HCam is a factor 100 smaller than Phase or Blad, nevertheless we have made an independent MF camera.

    Greetings from Lindenberg
    Stefan
    Stefan, I certainly am not taking away from your success and accomplishment with the Hcam. But likewise, you seem to suggest coming out with the latest and greatest thing is easily achieved. The photographic equipment market is a tough field. Being "large" does not make it easier, it just makes losing more money easier. Hollywood has a formula for making blockbusters; they are wrong more often than they are right.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    HCam is a tech camera. The user expectations of a tech camera is much different than from those that want a SLR type of camera for hand-held portraits etc. It seems to me that Shashin is asking for that rather than a tech camera.

    Hand-holdability of a tech camera is meaningless, it will always be on a tripod. What I'd like to see in the tech camera future is better portability, better handling in hard / cold weather (lots of exposed metal means cold fingers), large flat surfaces catching wind etc, and live view or if we get no CMOS better development of ground glass (better fresnels, provide electronic loupe etc), and fast efficient review from the digital back, on the back and optionally on a high res tablet.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Hand-holdability of a tech camera is meaningless...
    Not to me or two other members of GetDPI I know that handhold tech cameras--and you can do a search about threads on handles for tech cameras. Except for monorail cameras, I don't know of a camera type that can't be handheld. But that is not my only dislike, the side buttons look like a pain to see in the field. Even on tripod mounting, I want a secure camera to hold onto for mounting and transportation--I would be afraid to drop this thing.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Stefan,

    why don't you start a kickstarter campaign. That way you could test the waters for a novel mf cam concept and get initial funding for your next HCam.

    Of course you need the create something at a killer price point. Or why don't you sit together with the Blackmagic guys. I think they're a cool bunch of video enthusiasts/entrepreneurs and I'm sure you would find an economical way of splitting up revenue and cost with them. Also Kodaks sensor business has been sold to an investor who surely is open to selling legacy sensors to someone like you wanting to create the Blackmagic cinema camera version of the MF world.

    Let's say you get the 39MPX or 50 MPX sensor from them as well as the Monochrome version and maybe the p45+ sensor from Dalsa.

    Integrate that with the same screen and UI of Blackmagics camera, your universal mount concept at the front and an SSD slot for storage. This all for 6-10k USD.

    I would sign up in a heartbeat for that camera. When designing it, pleaase create a mixture of Hasselblad and Blackcinema camera, i.e. add a grip at least.

    A dream would be a camera that can mount Leica S lenses, Phase one SK, Hassy and CaNikon lenses.

    Just dreaming aloud.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Shashin

    I know how difficult this business is, we are working with our customers every day and I try to solve their problems in our solutions.

    What I ask for is no less than a vision and enthusiasm. This is what I feel for Photography and I think an engineer approach is not enough. The last larger company that made it to the top with this spirit is Apple. I also see this spirit in this Black Magic camera. It always takes a bit madness to launch a product that many do not understand nor want. This was true for cars, photo + filmcameras, television, computers......... the list is endless.

    The traditionalists are legion. Of course it´s their right to think like this.
    But there will always be crazy people like me who want to do better.

    And I will NOT STOP. I clearly see the future of professional photography and I also believe there IS a possible future. But not if people sit back and say - wait - this will go away, we will always work like this, we don´t need to change anything. 3/4 of the professional Photo industry already has disappeared. You think this was out of the blue ?

    Greetings from Lindenberg
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Thanks Paul

    I have thought about this already, it´s an option !
    And - who say´s I will not do it ?

    regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Just do it!



    The beauty about todays world is that actually one person can pull that off. If you think about it for a second, Phase one didn't do anything else than create an intelligent hull to an already existing scientific sensor design and marketed it to photographers with a nice margin. I mean their camera body is based on the the mamiya legacy and the only thing they did is create a nice workflow and user interface for these sensors. (ok one can say that's a big thing)

    I mean from what I remember Dalsa is primarily focused on military, industrial and scientific applications? Sensor design is the hard part, I guess, creating a cc-milled hull with a gpu and cpu in it to save the sensor data onto a compact flash shouldn't be rocket science on the other hand?


    It also shouldn't be too hard sourcing the same sensors and creating a cheaper interface sold over the internet ... at least I imagine it shouldnt be too hard? You could work with some talented students from the TU München in creating a cheaper digital back. I'm sure you'll be able to assemble a group of 4-5 engineering students. All the Phase One components should be available on the open market, including gpus etc. Nvidias Tegra surely is able to process 50MPX files to zoom in and out, the touchscreen etc. should be quite cheap.

    Seitz did the same thing with their 160 MPX cam. They got the scan sensor from Kodak, outsourced the UI/IO software programming to a third party company and designed the cnc body of the camera. And they are by no means a huge company. Only problem is their pricing - way too high.

    I hope you pull it off. Those digital backs are way overpriced for what they are ... Dream would be if you managed to create a modular design such as for example the RED cinema camera. The lens mount, the controls, the screen everything should be exchangeable so that even the sensor could be exchanged at your factory for say 5k. IF in 2013 a 80 MPX sensor is available as a legacy sensor on the open market, you could offer your customers upgrades at a fair price, say 5-6k etc ...


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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Paul

    as I said - I collect informations first. then I will finalize what I want to do and the chance to see a result is comparably big, believe me..... :-) I do not want to make another Phase, Leaf or Blad back. I want a solution that is a) much less in pricing b) taking into account a modern sensor and camera design and c)allowing modularity and upgradability.

    This alone already marks most of how this camera needs to look like from a todays technical knowhow. Black Magic has taken what Red has done, looked into the software and pricing approach of japanese makers and added a simplified design to cut costs.

    So you are right, this is possible. Lets see who will be first. I know that the"other" makers are of course working on similar solutions. There are a lot of smart people in these companies and the fact that they cannot do things as they may want to do them, is not a proof they could not do it if they need to do it......

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    No no no no no!

    NO!

    Please do NOT build the sensor into the camera. Keep it totally modular.

    I'll even give you the name for the thing:

    BYOLAS.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    BYOLAS ????

    Please explain !

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    BYOLAS ????

    Please explain !

    Bring Your Own Lens And Sensor

    Also, don't bother with a viewfinder display on the camera itself. Take the FireWire or USB3 output from a sensor and turn it into a wireless connection. Use a phone/tablet/laptop/PC as the viewfinder and control all functions from there.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Gerald

    I give you a hint: as long as there is no large CMOS existing (at least a full 4,5x6 or larger) this (Back and separate camera) will not happen anymore. It´s logically ruled out by the necessary tolerances to achive sharp images with larger resolutions.

    So........


    Stefan
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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Exciting times, then!

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Gerald

    I give you a hint: as long as there is no large CMOS existing (at least a full 4,5x6 or larger) this (Back and separate camera) will not happen anymore. It´s logically ruled out by the necessary tolerances to achive sharp images with larger resolutions.

    So........


    Stefan
    Hi Stefan, interesting idea, I really hope too someone will finally make a large sensor mirrorless camera (modular would be perfect).

    about the separate back story: what about interchangeable lens mounts (on red cameras for example) seems to work. and of course lens mounts itself if that works, why should it be impossible to make a separate back? and of course if there is no mirrorbox a camera with an interchangeable mount is nothing more than a "digital back".

    simon

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Simon

    you are right - the Lens mount is still a weakness in this. But it already would help greatly if at least the Back-Body connection would be eliminated.
    The consequence for even better resolution will be as shown in the N808 Nokia with the 5 aspherical elements Zeiss lens which is mounted fixed.

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    Re: Example for a future MF Design

    Is tolerance really that great problem? There are lots of industrial and medical machines that need very high precision and they can be manufactured.

    Also, when you have live view with manual focus directly on the sensor much of the tolerance problem disappears. One does not want any accidental tilt/swing though, which still could happen.

    My guess is that the largest tolerance challenge today is inside the lenses, that the lens elements are mounted at exactly the right position.

    I'd like to see someone make the perfect digital view camera. I believe that tech cameras should have plenty movements. Ansel Adams used lots of movements for his compositions, so why shouldn't I? Linhof Techno is not a bad shot, but there are things to improve.

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