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Thread: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

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    Member pedro39photo's Avatar
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    Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Hello, i am DMF user ( Hasselblad H3D 22MP).

    I have 5000 USD and i feel myself in a LIMBO !!! after 2 weeks of peep pixel in D800 samples !!! what to do? a used H3D 39MP or D800 ?

    Looking for personal experiences from users, that totally leave the DMF system for the D800. Its true? there is really photographers killing your DMF system for the D800 ???

    - 1 - What they love in D800, and what they miss from the old DMF ?

    - 2 - What are the old medium format systems that its not a good option to buy now, because they are totally killed by the D800 quality/price ratio.

    - 3 - The real impact in used prices for the old generation backs/DMF systems (22-39MP) because of the D800

    Thanks, and sorry my English

    Pedro

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    It largely depends on whether your work requires the flexibility of the D800, or the richer tonality of DMF. To make the most of the D800 you're going to have to buy a set of lenses that are capable, $5K will not get you very far. It is very difficult to realise over 100 lp/mm on any camera, the D800 has to work much harder to achieve the its max quality whereas MF which has a larger sensor therefore lower lp/mm to get maximum results (of course this is countered by heavier gear and no stabilisation).

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    DMF = Great file quality, smooth tonality, great color and the "MF look;"

    D800 = Ease of use, convenience, cost and almost gets to the look of MF.

    My net two-cents is this: 70cm (28") of print seems about the break-point. So I would say that if you regularly print larger than 70cm (28") then DMF is tough to beat; conversely if you typically print under 70cm, then you will not see much advantage to MF over the D800.
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    DMF = Great file quality, smooth tonality, great color and the "MF look;"

    D800 = Ease of use, convenience, cost and almost gets to the look of MF.

    My net two-cents is this: 70cm (28") of print seems about the break-point. So I would say that if you regularly print larger than 70cm (28") then DMF is tough to beat; conversely if you typically print under 70cm, then you will not see much advantage to MF over the D800.
    And it depends on what your use is: For studio where 50-100iso is just fine, MF will win every time. For situations where you need high to very high ISO, then I would think the D800 would win.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    So, from your post, you are unhappy with the quality from your Hasselblad. So what do you imagine the D800 will give you?

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    And another question: Do you want to give up leaf shutter lenses? Of course you gain much higher shutter speeds but only with a focal plane shutter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    So, from your post, you are unhappy with the quality from your Hasselblad. So what do you imagine the D800 will give you?
    Higher ISO speeds.


    However, I claim that you will not see that much of a difference in IQ, if you take a Hasselblad file and upscale it to the size of the D800. I dare to say that the HB file will be the better looking and perhabs even be sharper. Don't forget about the aspect ratio. 3:2 is horrible for portraits IMO.

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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    If I had a Hasselblad H3D-22 - which I have - and if I had 5000 USD - which I have - I'd spend the money on making images rather than changing cameras.
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    What lenses do you have? Also do you have or use lighting equipment?

    I would say keep the camera you are used to using and purchase something else that will help you create better images.

    For $5000 you could get started with a profoto acute kit, some modifiers and stands, or an acute b with money left over. Using an acute b on location with a beauty dish or another modifier would dramatically improve portrait quality, and you could sync at 1/800 unlike the d800
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro39photo View Post
    Hello, i am DMF user ( Hasselblad H3D 22MP).

    I have 5000 USD and i feel myself in a LIMBO !!! after 2 weeks of peep pixel in D800 samples !!! what to do? a used H3D 39MP or D800 ?

    Looking for personal experiences from users, that totally leave the DMF system for the D800. Its true? there is really photographers killing your DMF system for the D800 ???

    - 1 - What they love in D800, and what they miss from the old DMF ?

    - 2 - What are the old medium format systems that its not a good option to buy now, because they are totally killed by the D800 quality/price ratio.

    - 3 - The real impact in used prices for the old generation backs/DMF systems (22-39MP) because of the D800

    Thanks, and sorry my English

    Pedro
    What type of photography you do?

    Good lenses for D800 are not cheap though! After buying D800 for $3K, you will have hardly any money left for good glasses.

    MFDB will give better color and tonality. Do you want to compromise?

    However, you can always add a D800 for certain other applications where MFDB is not easy to use like night photography.

    Subrata

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Don't try to cut sushi with a bread knife.
    Each camera has a use for which it excels.
    It also depends on the degree and frequency of portability you are looking for.
    There is no shame in having both, but that may limit purchases.
    For me, it comes mostly down to lenses. I have found nothing like (speaking from a phase perspective) the LS lenses which I truly adore. If there is a lens you love sometimes it deserves the rest of the camera system to go along with it.
    I am far from satisfied with the absolute IQ of the D800 compared to the IQ180. The closest I have found is with some Zeiss manual focus glass. But, and I have a big butt as those who know me, IQ isn't everything. Sometimes my best camera is the iPhone and sharpness and detail are just not important.
    -bob
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    "i feel myself in a LIMBO"

    I think you would do well to stay there a little longer, because the D800 was the first raindrop. It stands to reason that a cloudburst is just over the horizon.
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    I would keep using what you have - it's just as good as the D800. Just because a less expensive solution has appeared - and there will be others coming, does not make what you own and use bad.

    Cheers, -Peter
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    I would keep using what you have - it's just as good as the D800. Just because a less expensive solution has appeared - and there will be others coming, does not make what you own and use bad.

    Cheers, -Peter
    Peter,

    There are marketing folks and dealers all over the country sticking needles in to a wax effigy of you right now for stating such heresy!!!!

    We all know that as soon as something faster, bigger, cheaper comes along that all existing gear is only so much junk and worthy only for the scrap heap. Didn't you get the memo?

    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    I would suggest stay low for a while if you can. The D800 has just recently been launched so the MF market has not yet reacted to it. It can also be interesting to see what Canon and other DSLR manufacturers can come up with the coming two years or so, the D800 is only the start of high res DSLRs.

    If you however rather would like your MF system to be more like a 35mm DSLR (handling, live view, low light etc) but have stayed with MF due to the image quality, the D800 may be the tipping point when you can make that move.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    My answer is highly subjective and I dont even own a D800 (just a D700 and had a D3x for some months) and a S2.
    My opinion is that I am blown away again and again when I open the S2 files in regards of IQ.
    My feel is also that I images posted in the MF-thread overall do have a special look.
    I still believe even older MFD-backs deliver the best IQ for my taste.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    You have to ask yourself a few questions: how much you currently use a 35MM DSLR, and for what kind of work? While the D800 is a 35mm DSLR form factor, it may not be well suited for some types of shooting many people use a 35mm DSLR for.

    Plus, as Jack mentioned, how big do you tend to print?

    The above questions help determine whether consolidating to a 35mm high res camera will work for you. Remember, the H3D-22 and HC lenses aren't worthless, so you can sell it and add the proceeds to the $5,000 you already have to spend for a D800 and decent optics.

    Side note: Be sure to get a D800 in hand ... the little viewfinder may be a shock if you have been exclusively using the H3D.

    How do you currently use the H3D? What type of work do you do, and do you use the leaf shutters to good advantage or are they a hindrance because of the 1/800 top shutter speed for available light? 1/800 shutter is valuable if you shoot moving subjects and/or work in brighter conditions with strobes.

    What Hasselblad HC or HCD lenses do you already have? $5K can broaden your lens range, or be used to upgrade to later versions of the HC lenses ... like the much improved HC50-II. Lenses are ALWAYS the better investment compared to the body/back.

    Do you currently use the H3D to shoot film? ... and if not, I would suggest looking to upgrade to a H3D-II for the better LCD and heat-sink cooling. (the H3D-II and H4 do not accept a H film back like the H1, H2, H2F and H3D does).

    While the trend may or may not continue toward higher and higher resolution DSLRs, it won't alter the film gate size and those pixels will be packed into a 35mm window further stressing the optical systems of any brand, while demanding better and better technique from the photographer to realize the additional resolution.

    As to falling prices, I think things like the H3D/22 or 39 have already taken the majority hit as higher res MFD systems came on line. They may go a bit lower, but there is a threshold where prices tend to level off. Plus, there are those who still feel the 22 meg fat pixel larger sensor backs have a "magic" look and feel to them ... just like there are those who won't give-up their Nikon D700s for 35mm DSLR work.

    My personal opinion is that MFD is more than just resolution ... the look and feel is different ... if you don't see that difference, then why bother?

    -Marc

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    But no one really kill is DMF for the D800?

    I call local photo shop in Portugal and they have a 60 cameras D800 in the waiting list !!! and they don´t have one to deliver...

    The sellers man said that, never see a "trend" like this...no even with the lauch of the 5D Mark II

    I love the DMF, but i am trying to understand this madness, its the D800 that good??

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    That depends on your starting point. The D800 is more a revelation to those shooting 35mm and APS-C than it is for MFD shooters. But there is plenty of hype--as with every camera that is new and different. Once the D800 has been around for a while, it will just be like any other 35mm DSLR that was supposed to be ground breaking.

    There are plenty of folks here not interested in a D800.
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    To be 100% frank you're not going to find many objective opinions on any MF board for the next 6 months to a year about this issue. I'd rent and test for yourself and make your own mind up.
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    As long as DMF makers do not adopt to the possibilities of CMOS (or something else which is better), they will be stuck.

    Physics cannot be overcome, so DMF will always give some extra advantages/differences - however you want to see this.

    But also progress and evolution cannot be neglect forever, so I really wonder when MFD makers will understand they need something better or shall we say more capable than CCD.

    Killing one's MFD system just because the D800 is there would be nonsense anyway and more patience for where the 35 evolution will head is adequate though. And I am sure we also will se some MFD evolution - maybe revolution - over the next years. Just stay tuned for what Hasselblad will introduce in the coming months and also Phase will not be sleeping ....

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Only future will tell if the D800 was revolutionary or not. I think there is a risk that the MF market will shrink to an impossible size if too many professionals start thinking that D800-like quality is good enough and stop buying new MF gear.

    I'm under the impression that we see more people step down from MF to D800 now than when the 5Dmk2 came out, simply because image quality has now reached some sort of tipping point.

    I recently got my first MF system so I surely hope this will not happen, but I cannot say I feel that my investment is safe in any way. The coming 3 - 5 year period will be very exciting.
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I recently got my first MF system so I surely hope this will not happen, but I cannot say I feel that my investment is safe in any way.
    ???? Cameras are not an investment strategy. Try stocks and bonds. I would not buy any photographic equipment as a way to invest, unless it was an investment in my skills and photographs. Don't buy gear if you are afraid to lose money.
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Any gear that cost a large amount of money I call "investment", maybe a poor use of word. Don't worry, I don't intend to sell it at higher prices than I bought it :-). Still I would prefer that MF manufacturers stay in business a few more years though and manage to make competitive products at reasonable prices. Maybe D800 is not the tipping point, but I think they will haveto respond in some way, lower prices or more capable sensors, something. The CCD for $30,000 era is not forever.

    (I have tried stock by the way, I lost all the money...)
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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Nobody probably will suspect I´m a film supporter still, but guys do you remember the days when a used Schneider or Rodenstock lens was about 60-75 % of a new one ? When I was a young photographer I bought used Rodenstocks, one after the other, after 3 years when the taxes where deducted I sold them and got the same I paid and from the taxes I saved I could buy new ones ? Same with view cameras and all kind of pro equipment ?

    Damn I knew digital has some disadvantages, but sometimes it really hurts. So I can as well understand if someone looks upon a 20k investment as something to care for !

    regards
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    well.. buy yourself old 4x5 for couple hundreds, buy yourself some b&w film, buy yourself lens or two, and scanner.. It will keep you on path of shooting slow and patiently And save some money on the way...

    Unless of course 5 grand do burn your pocket. In that case feel free to donate them to someone or just put them in bank for some long term savings

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Here are two decision points that I use to decide which system to take along on a shoot:

    1. Do I need to shoot at ISO 800 or above. I get great quality out of the D800e up to ISO ~2000 versus my IQ140 which struggles past ISO 400.

    2. Do I need to shoot moving subjects? If so, the autofocus options on the D800 are far superior to what you can do with the DF body.

    Hope this helps,

    -P-

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Peter,

    There are marketing folks and dealers all over the country sticking needles in to a wax effigy of you right now for stating such heresy!!!!

    We all know that as soon as something faster, bigger, cheaper comes along that all existing gear is only so much junk and worthy only for the scrap heap. Didn't you get the memo?

    Yeah - I could feel the voodoo last night.... .

    Cheers, -Peter

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro39photo View Post
    Hello, i am DMF user ( Hasselblad H3D 22MP).

    I have 5000 USD and i feel myself in a LIMBO !!! after 2 weeks of peep pixel in D800 samples !!! what to do? a used H3D 39MP or D800 ?

    Looking for personal experiences from users, that totally leave the DMF system for the D800. Its true? there is really photographers killing your DMF system for the D800 ???

    - 1 - What they love in D800, and what they miss from the old DMF ?

    - 2 - What are the old medium format systems that its not a good option to buy now, because they are totally killed by the D800 quality/price ratio.

    - 3 - The real impact in used prices for the old generation backs/DMF systems (22-39MP) because of the D800

    Thanks, and sorry my English

    Pedro
    Pedro, I've been using D800E with Carl Zeiss 100mm f2 ZF2 macro lens for a month now. I do studio still life. I can post you few original files of food and products if that helps.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Nobody probably will suspect I´m a film supporter still, but guys do you remember the days when a used Schneider or Rodenstock lens was about 60-75 % of a new one ? When I was a young photographer I bought used Rodenstocks, one after the other, after 3 years when the taxes where deducted I sold them and got the same I paid and from the taxes I saved I could buy new ones ? Same with view cameras and all kind of pro equipment ?

    Damn I knew digital has some disadvantages, but sometimes it really hurts. So I can as well understand if someone looks upon a 20k investment as something to care for !

    regards
    Stefan
    I think this is very true, IF one bought gear that was (or is) inadequate to the tasks or style of a specific photographer.

    Using the financial perspective, I haven't lost any money on any Leica M gear despite the digital bodies depreciating more than the film bodies ever did ... the tax write offs and appreciation of lens pricing easily made up the difference. For example, I made good money off the Nocti 50/0.95 ... meanwhile I had used it for two years to make images that in turn made money. I can thank Leica's inflated pricing strategy for that.

    However, I have never bought any Leica M gear for the above reasons.

    Never bought any MFD gear for those reasons either. I bought into the H system almost 10 years ago for specific aesthetic and commercial reasons. Commercial "digital capture fees" and tax write-offs literally paid for the whole initial venture with-in a few years, and upgrades for years after that (different financial environment then).

    The Hasselblad lenses and accessories stayed a constant and are still with me as I kept upgrading the bodies/backs as needed to meet changing performance, aesthetic and commercial reasons. The constant unchanging aspect of this system was, and remains, that it is all leaf-shutter based and provides a high sync speed that no 35mm DSLR can equal. Even if Nikon came out with a D900 @ 60 meg, it would be inadequate to the tasks I need accomplished unless the 1/250 sync speed threshold is breeched with new technologies ... which may well be possible with a shutterless camera. Even then, why change if something only equals what I already have and is doing the job? THAT is how you lose your A$$ financially.

    The ONLY gear I have lost money on in past has been 35mm DSLR equipment ... which was my fault for jumping around so much in that category, and how fast it gets out-dated.

    -Marc

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    4x5" view cameras have unique features in movements rarely replicated in modern tech cameras. Some of the modern tech cameras don't even have tilt! But I see that many today don't use movements much, one gets used with the reduced feature-set, adapts the photographic style, or maybe even haven't tried a traditional view camera so they know what's missing.

    I think the same can happen with the flash sync speed advantage. The new generation of photographers are used to DSLRs and what they can do. The question of the near future will be why change from a DSLR to MF when my DSLR does the work? The MF makers have a challenge there. In the past it was about how much easier to work with than MF/large format film, in recent years how much better image quality it was than DSLR, but now that argument is also about to fall apart. Sure it is better, but subtle to most.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    4x5" view cameras have unique features in movements rarely replicated in modern tech cameras. Some of the modern tech cameras don't even have tilt! But I see that many today don't use movements much, one gets used with the reduced feature-set, adapts the photographic style, or maybe even haven't tried a traditional view camera so they know what's missing.

    I think the same can happen with the flash sync speed advantage. The new generation of photographers are used to DSLRs and what they can do. The question of the near future will be why change from a DSLR to MF when my DSLR does the work? The MF makers have a challenge there. In the past it was about how much easier to work with than MF/large format film, in recent years how much better image quality it was than DSLR, but now that argument is also about to fall apart. Sure it is better, but subtle to most.
    Sounds like compromise thinking to me.

    All the more reason to adopt tools that separate one from the pack. This has always been the draw for those that seek to accomplish what others can't ... and do it quickly to meet certain commercial or personal creative demands.

    For example, showing a client focus stacking on set to get the needed DOF for a product shot, as opposed to full movements with my Rollie Xact-II and Rodenstock digital optics which takes seconds, are two totally different exercises ... one is a no-no, and the other is a no-brainer

    If the DOF demand isn't that great, then I can slap on the HTS/1.5 for tilt, and use any focal length from 28 to 100 depending on the subject and lens draw I may want.

    High sync speed isn't a frivolous option as you seem to indicate ... it's a creative tool to express certain look you may want to accomplish, and those without that option are adapting to the tool, as opposed to the tools adopting to the need.

    Horses for courses is still in effect.

    -Marc

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Horses for courses is still in effect.
    I see your point and I do hope you are right. I myself after all chose a digital view camera with "only" 33 megapixels when the D800E was already available simply because I think DSLR tilt-shift options are too limited for my photographic style.

    I'm just a bit pessimistic, I'm afraid that too few will see the value of those various features.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I see your point and I do hope you are right. I myself after all chose a digital view camera with "only" 33 megapixels when the D800E was already available simply because I think DSLR tilt-shift options are too limited for my photographic style.

    I'm just a bit pessimistic, I'm afraid that too few will see the value of those various features.
    Oh, I wouldn't worry too much. There are plenty of shooters banging away every day with their MFD systems that aren't here touting why or defending anything ... they are busy shooting.

    My pal has a studio that does a ton of product work for a German based food retailer that is picky as hell about the quality of the work, and also wants that quality for ease of retouching. He won the account based on precision and getting the shot close right out of the camera. 2 full movement 6X9 view cameras, 2 big Fuji's with tilts, and nine Hasselblad H cameras going day and night. His shooters have to be able to set the movements in minutes and light a set very fast. That is the challenge and reality of some commercial shooters.

    I just did a portrait session at a time and place that had me shooting high speed sync with the H camera using 4,000 w/s of lighting to get the balance I wanted for the look I pre visualized. 1/250 or HSS and 50 speed-lights, or NDs on a 35mm DSLR lens would not have cut it. It would not have been the same image I had in mind.

    I have another major shoot coming up where I'll be putting 4,800 w/s on the subject and another 2400w/s split up elsewhere ... basically lighting a forest area ... and do it no matter what the ambient may be up to that day. These jobs happen on the day planned, not when conditions are ideal.

    Check out this Pro shooting with the Leica S2 and new CS leaf shutter lenses wide open that sync to 1/1000 dealing with subject movement in daylight ... masterful results IMO. Control no matter when or where is the point made.

    Markus Tedeskino on the Leica Central Shutter S-Lenses in St. Peter Ording, Germany on Vimeo

    -Marc

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    If I had a Hasselblad H3D-22 - which I have - and if I had 5000 USD - which I have - I'd spend the money on making images rather than changing cameras.
    I see you got a lot of Likes for that - and I see why - but it makes me cheekily want to ask what camera you had before the one you've got now, and why did you change? I assume that your point is that there's not enough difference between the Hassy and a D800 to make the change worthwhile given the opportunity cost of the use of funds, but I'm interested in this issue of at what point is a change rational, rather than just an expression of our insecurities and/or gear sluttishness (if that's a word?!)
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Hi Tim

    I’d say I’m the opposite of a gear slut. I can count the cameras I’ve owned in the last fifteen years on the fingers of one hand and have two fingers to spare. I guess it comes down to what I want to be known for, a portfolio of cameras or a portfolio of images.

    My last change was from Hasselblad V series film to H series digital; fundamental stuff. I can rationalise change if it allows me to fundamentally change the way I make images. Having said that, I can visualise a change - or an addition - in the near future that hopefully will allow me to do just that.

    Keith
    Last edited by KeithL; 19th June 2012 at 11:22.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I assume that your point is that there's not enough difference between the Hassy and a D800 to make the change worthwhile...
    I would like to jump in here.

    Why is everyone always looking for the next camera? (I am really curious about the divorce rate at GetDPI.) There is nothing wanting in what I have. It makes the images I want to make and does it really well. I find the deficiency in my work is not a result of the gear, but my skill. A D800 is not going to fix that. More DR is not going to fix that. Neither is higher ISOs.

    I learnt long ago, it was not the choices that made me a better photographer, but the limitations. 90 percent of my work is done with a single focal length. Sure a 35mm camera would give me more choice in lenses, but is it real choice? The DR of slide film is not great, but using that limitation can make for powerful imagery--I don't get the fear of shadows and highlights. The limitations make me work harder and focus more. The results, however, are not limited. My work is never defined by the number of pixels.

    Sure, the camera is important. If you are a cab driver, you want a comfortable car. But the smaller viewfinder and 3:2 aspect ratio is no plus for me.

    As far as insecurities, if I still wear my Bay City Rollers T-shirt, the camera is isn't going to cause me to blush.
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I would like to jump in here.

    Why is everyone always looking for the next camera?
    It's not debatable that technology can provide quality improvements in some areas to images. It is a valid point that many people reach what is sufficient technology for what they do, yet still crave something better. Others find ways around the technology (such as stitching) to overcome it's weaknesses. Certainly technology doesn't make anyone a better photographer ... if your work isn't very good buying a better camera won't offer much. But buying a better camera/lens can certainly improve the final quality of that work.

    The Nikon d800 situation is the most unique one in the history of digital photography, and there is little chance of it ever happening again. The pent up demand for an affordable decent resolution full frame Nikon is the result of Nikons lack of presence in that market. In the beginning of digital, Nikon blew off full frame. They were extremely late to the party, and even the D3x, as awesome as it was, remained out of the budget of most photographers.

    Nikon should have introduced an affordable 20+MP body 2 or 3 years ago. I'm assuming their deal with Sony made the 24mp sensor cost prohibitive to put into a d700 body (which doesn't make sense). But kudos to them, as they sort made up for their puzzling lack of interest in FF bodies because they focused on making sure when they finally did bring a decent higher resolution FF sensor to the market, they blew things wide open by wrapping up the best 35mm sensor ever made into a very reasonably priced body. It's no wonder they are selling like they are - there are so many Nikon users stuck at the 12mp world. We will never see pent up demand like this again. Even when Canon introduces their +30mp (or perhaps +40mp) sensor later this year, the demand isn't nearly as high, because at 22mp the current Canons provide excellent results and are more than adequate for many, and I'm guessing it will be a higher ticket item so not as affordable as a d800.
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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Hi Tim

    I guess it comes down to what I want to be known for, a portfolio of cameras or a portfolio of images.


    Keith
    These things are so personal. I'd like to think that your quote above is a false opposition - was reading today about Burtynsky's switch from 4x5 film to Phase digital on Hassy body and how much he feels it has improved his ability to make great images - but I have found that constantly changing gear so as to always 'have the best' has the downside of relentless gear testing because of today's poor QC standards. And the time spent on learning the new gear is not insignificant. This is why I'm currently ditching most everything for a pair of D800s and carefully vetted stable of glass, so I can learn it inside out and work with it in depth. But I have also often found new gear creatively challenging, and have learned a lot through getting to grips with different systems and formats.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    These things are so personal. I'd like to think that your quote above is a false opposition - was reading today about Burtynsky's switch from 4x5 film to Phase digital on Hassy body and how much he feels it has improved his ability to make great images - but I have found that constantly changing gear so as to always 'have the best' has the downside of relentless gear testing because of today's poor QC standards. And the time spent on learning the new gear is not insignificant. This is why I'm currently ditching most everything for a pair of D800s and carefully vetted stable of glass, so I can learn it inside out and work with it in depth. But I have also often found new gear creatively challenging, and have learned a lot through getting to grips with different systems and formats.
    This presupposes that one is dissatisfied with their current gear. The OP never answered that key question ... the bent of his question seems more to do with "investment" fears than whether a move to something else will advance his work ... or as Keith puts it, his "Portfolio."

    The notion that new gear will challenge you is of course true ... it forces involvement, even excitement about mastering the new tool. IMO, that's a logical and mechanical endeavor and is not to be confused with inspiring you ... which I think many count on, then keep changing tools looking for the "good, better, best" magic bullet that never comes, at least not for that reason.

    Inspiration is about vision, seeing light, thinking, ideas and creativity ... and the tool either does your bidding or it doesn't ... a pure function of selecting the right tool for the applications and ideas you created, bringing us right back to "horses for courses".

    Like Keith, I went from a V system to the H system and have been there ever since. The H tool is well known to me, is second nature, and basically gets out of the way for the work I do. The S2 is almost there as an invisible partner in making images ... and patience has paid off because it also can do what no 35mm DSLR can do ... meaning: do the ideas I want to do ... use light the way I want to ... complete the image I want to create.

    All the best in your new venture with new tools and may they fit you and what you want to do. I'm pretty satisfied with the tools I've finally assembled. Maybe others are also?

    -Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 20th June 2012 at 02:06.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro39photo View Post
    Looking for personal experiences from users, that totally leave the DMF system for the D800.
    Indeed, you should be seeking out personal experiences from people who have actually printed images from both the D800 and DMF system, instead of just some opinions that lack any direct evidence to support them.

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro39photo View Post
    love the DMF, but i am trying to understand this madness, its the D800 that good??
    There is no question that the D800 is receiving extremely high praise from some of the best photographers in the world. For example, with regard to large print size, the conventional wisdom has been that prints exceeding about 30 inches absolutely require medium format capture, but this myth has been proved wrong with the D800E, at least for some kinds of images. Recently, Peter Cox was involved in a direct comparison of 40x60 inch prints taken with both the D800E and a high end DMF back. Peter is a well known and respected landscape photographer. You can contact him through his website at Peter Cox Photography, Ireland for comments on his comparison. A brief summary and preview of this comparison can be heard on this podcast:
    Audioboo / Nikon D800E v Phase One IQ180 comparison - 60x40 inch print comparison yields SHOCK result

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    I would say keep your Hasselblad and spend on taking photos. If you know how to process your file very well, you won't see much difference in them. Maybe your lacking Live View only.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Thanks so much David ! , for me that podcast say it all !!!

    If a respected landscape photographer can´t see the differences from a 3000$ camera 40x60 inch print, and a 35.000$ camera, sorry but this its a tabu !!! a marking tabu for anyone with the DMF or anyone selling DMF.

    I really love the MF systems, but please i think its time for a game change in the DMF prices ! in quality of the ISOs, In the quality of the LCD etc !

    Audioboo / Nikon D800E v Phase One IQ180 comparison - 60x40 inch print comparison yields SHOCK result

    Its time to sell my H3D !!! how much today a H3D 22MP camera sells? that cost 14.000$ only 5 years ago...

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Well I recently shot my IQ 140 on a tech cam with a roadie 28 against my D800 and 24 processed for optimum results and the 140 still kicked its butt in detail department. So it's not always that clear. They are damn close, if you don't have to sell your MF than I would not. In my case selling it is for reasons outside of photography. Photographically I would rather have the MF system. In my situation selling it is not something I really want to do. I do like the D800 and it's a versatile tool to work with but it's not going to make me any better or worse just another compromise as with any system.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    Actually if you listen to the podcast carefully, it was relatively easy to distinguish the Nikon files from the IQ180 files - simply by looking at corner/corner sharpness.
    Bottom line is the D800 needs top glass to get the best from that sensor.

    As to selling your HB - don't expect to get more than $5'000.- for it.

    That said, I don't see many adds for 2nd hand MFD equipment (just check this and other forums) - but I see loads of D3X users trying to sell their once $8000.- camera very rapidly.

    Once the D4X arrives, we'll see the next flux of 2nd hand cameras - this time - D800's.

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    Re: Killing the DMF system for the D800 (experiences)

    DSLRs have had more rapid development in image quality which gives more desire to upgrade, and don't forget that in DSLR land the body (including sensor) is substantially cheaper too, so it is not a huge cost to upgrade, so why not just for the fun of it? Lenses does not have the same rate of replacement.

    One could say that the reason why many hold on to the MF systems so long is because the lack of development -- my Aptus 75 from 2005 essentially provides the same image quality as a ~30-40 megapixel MFDB today, and the prices are so high that the upgrades in user interface are not worth it. In some aspects development even go backwards, long exposures since P45+?

    Strictly speaking I think MFDB tech today provides enough of what a professional photographer needs, and high prices is no problem for someone with healthy business, but if people start getting the feeling that they are ripped off compared to capable alternatives the business model may have to change.

    (note that I'm an amateur though, and as such like to complain about prices )

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