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Thread: question for CFV or 503cwd users

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    question for CFV or 503cwd users

    I just read through several threads regarding the CFV and CFVII backs, including the one with the "ship"-images and the one from the "old cars".
    The images are brilliant to my eye.
    I have several questions regarding the CFV:

    -do you think the CFV+Hassy combo does deliever better or maybe lets say different imaqe quality than lets say a phase one back on a Hasselbladbody (and assuming using same lenses)

    -would 40mm be the widest lens/option or are there any ways to go wider?

    -up to which ISO is usable and how would the ISO quality compare to a P25+ (or comparable) back?

    -How bright is focusing screen and how good works focusing overall with this camera/finder?

    -how limited do you feel with the "small" sensor? It seems "small" if one crops to 3:2 ration but if one likes square it doesnt seem that small anymore.

    The point is that the form and feel factor of a classic Hasselblad and waist level finder is very appealing to me. I understand that it is not a very flexible system but maybe its all I would/want/need.

    I am interested in anny comments, experiences, how do you like the back/combo, what dont you like etc etc
    thanks a lot, Tom

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    I have no experience with digital and a V body, but I own an old (ancient: 1966) 500C with a chrome 80/2.8 (non T*), and it is a transcendental experience shooting with it, for me. It forces you to really, really slow down and focus on the basics. In that sense, it could easily be what you are looking for.

    A couple of caveats: the CFV sensors are quite a lot smaller than the full view, which could be frustrating. Focusing is very difficult on the 500C. Make sure you get at least a 500 C/M, and an AccuMatte screen, which is very good. The camera is fully manual, as in no battery. You might want to look for something newer, like a 503CW or something like that, if you don't want to carry a spot meter and play Ansel Adams with the Zone System. Then again, maybe that's what you want? Wide angle: gone. Get used to stitching for wide views I love square too. A couple of my most memorable photos were taken with the 500C.

    But... you just picked up a ZD body, which has a sensor as good as the CFV. Why not just shoot it for three months and see where it takes you? If you like the system, but find that you want something more like a traditional 645, you can get a Phase One 645 or AFDII or AFDIII. I doubt that there is something you can do with the CFV that you cannot with the ZD, whereas the opposite is less true. Pick up a decent Mamiya lens in your favorite focal length range and go shooting. The ZD is a really neat camera.

    Btw, I tried to track down that article I had in my head where it said that the ZD body had less dynamic range than other backs, but I cannot find it. Maybe I just remembered wrong. Here is another one from a guy who used an AFDII for a while:

    http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/...gboarding.html

    In the end, it wasn't what he wanted, but he describes the experience very well. I read this many times, and still re-read from time to time, just to check that I am on the right path.
    Carsten - Website

  3. #3
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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    -How bright is focusing screen and how good works focusing overall with this camera/finder?

    -The point is that the form and feel factor of a classic Hasselblad and waist level finder is very appealing to me. I understand that it is not a very flexible system but maybe its all I would/want/need.

    Any of the Acute Matte screens will do well. They are brighter than the old standard screen. The later Acute Matte "D" makes focusing high spots easier.

    I do not understand what you mean by Hasselblad not being a flexible system.
    Hasselblad has the widest range of accessoires and enjoys great compatibility.
    Most parts from the 500 system introduced since 1957 still fit the latest V bodies.
    What other camera body from the fifties does accept a digital back as standard fitting?

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Maybe he is referring to the necessary sync cable (with earlier models, at least), or the settings readout in the viewfinder, or autofocus, or TTL flash? Can you make settings adjustments on the back (ISO...) and have the camera know about it for metering?

    There are definitely aspects of the V system which are not as modern as other cameras.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Hi Tom,

    while I own other digital 645 cameras with 31 and 39 meg sensors, I have kept the CFV because to my eye it delivers something special. I am not alone in thinking this, and apparently you have taken note of it yourself.

    The CFV and CFV-II are special CF type Hasselblad backs ... they are special in that they are the ONLY backs that work directly on the V series cameras without any sync cords needed ... and the only digital back that works full function on a 200 series Hasselblad camera (200 series cameras have to be slightly modified.) In the CVF menu you have all the various Hasselblad models listed for choice ... plus "pinhole" and "flash sync".

    The CFV produces a crop factor of 1.5X ... so the field of view of any lens is affected in that manner, but the characteristics of the lens remains the same. 40mm is the widest V lens made. I do not find this restricting except when forced into very tight spaces, or am looking for sweeping panoramic. In practice that is the only drawback of this back IMO ... however, on the rare occasion that has happened I've used panning techniques and stitched 2 or 3 shots with perfect results.

    Because the CFV is a classic V mount, it can be mounted on a wide range of MF cameras using widely available adapters. I use one on a Mamiya RZ and can use it on a view camera ... obviously, on a view camera much wider angle lenses can be used.

    The current promo that includes the Zeiss 40IF lens is still amazing given that incredible lens retails for almost $6,000. alone.

    At long last, the ISO of the CFV will be boosted to 800 with the pending firmware upgrade to accompany the latest software version of Phocus.

    Here's some Hasselblad CFV info: including some more work ...

    http://www.hasselblad.com/planet-v/start.aspx

    http://www.hasselblad.com/planet-v/word.aspx

    http://www.hasselblad.com/planet-v/w...-williams.aspx

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Maybe he is referring to the necessary sync cable (with earlier models, at least), or the settings readout in the viewfinder, or autofocus, or TTL flash? Can you make settings adjustments on the back (ISO...) and have the camera know about it for metering?

    There are definitely aspects of the V system which are not as modern as other cameras.

    The CFV back works on the vast majority of 500 series cameras ever made without any sync cord. It is the other non-CFV backs that require sync cords.

    The 503CW that comes with the kit has TTL flash, as does a number of 500 cameras as well as the 203FE and most 200 series cameras. Metz makes the modules.

    Transfer of meter settings to the lens, or altering ISO on the back/meter is the nature of the 500 series cameras and is no different with a film back or a CFV back attached. Modern is a relative term ... if you like personal control of your camera, then maybe "timeless" or "never outdated" is a more appropriate description.

    V cameras include the 200 series which does offer automated metering, and aperture preferred shooting for those who want that type shooting experience ... and unlike any other system, The CFV fits the Leaf Shutter camera AND the Focal Plane shutter camera without screwing around with adapters or changing mounts.

  7. #7
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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    "The current promo that includes the Zeiss 40IF lens is still amazing given that incredible lens retails for almost $6,000. alone."
    *******************
    This is the best "deal" in MF digital. 1 1/2 years ago, I was going to sell my 503CW and 5 CZ lenses because they were not being used. By "accident", I saw fotografz CFV thread on another forum..he sold me on the CFV and it was money well spent. The combination of a manual camera and the instant feed back of digital is very educational. If 40mm + CVF isn't wide enough, just put on a film back.

    Steve

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    ....But... you just picked up a ZD body, which has a sensor as good as the CFV. Why not just shoot it for three months and see where it takes you? If you like the system, but find that you want something more like a traditional 645, you can get a Phase One 645 or AFDII or AFDIII. I doubt that there is something you can do with the CFV that you cannot with the ZD, whereas the opposite is less true. ...
    Carsten,
    I for sure will continue to "experiment" with the ZD-system.
    One thing I have found is that the form factor can be an advantage (the camera being small, light and unobstrusive because it looks like a 35mm SLR) but on the other side it does not give me the MF-feel in my hand.
    I even think the ZD and a more classic approach of an MF-camera (with waist level finder) would go a long pretty good.
    I was very impressed by the images I saw posted from the CFV, and also still think the camera looks "sexy".
    Regards, Tom

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsrfun View Post
    "The current promo that includes the Zeiss 40IF lens is still amazing given that incredible lens retails for almost $6,000. alone."
    *******************
    This is the best "deal" in MF digital. 1 1/2 years ago, I was going to sell my 503CW and 5 CZ lenses because they were not being used. By "accident", I saw fotografz CFV thread on another forum..he sold me on the CFV and it was money well spent. The combination of a manual camera and the instant feed back of digital is very educational. If 40mm + CVF isn't wide enough, just put on a film back.

    Steve
    Where can I find the promo?/ whats the set and price?
    I cant find it.

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Thanks for this post.
    How often do you actually use the CFV compared to the H-system - and for what prupose?
    Do you get the 40 focused reliable (its f4 which isnt really fast/bright)
    And..do you expect Hasselblad will introduced a square sensor in a larger size any time soon?
    The only thing that strikes me is that with the crop and regarding the lens one pays an awfull lot of money for a 40/4.0 lens and only used the middle of the lens.


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Hi Tom,

    while I own other digital 645 cameras with 31 and 39 meg sensors, I have kept the CFV because to my eye it delivers something special. I am not alone in thinking this, and apparently you have taken note of it yourself.

    The CFV and CFV-II are special CF type Hasselblad backs ... they are special in that they are the ONLY backs that work directly on the V series cameras without any sync cords needed ... and the only digital back that works full function on a 200 series Hasselblad camera (200 series cameras have to be slightly modified.) In the CVF menu you have all the various Hasselblad models listed for choice ... plus "pinhole" and "flash sync".

    The CFV produces a crop factor of 1.5X ... so the field of view of any lens is affected in that manner, but the characteristics of the lens remains the same. 40mm is the widest V lens made. I do not find this restricting except when forced into very tight spaces, or am looking for sweeping panoramic. In practice that is the only drawback of this back IMO ... however, on the rare occasion that has happened I've used panning techniques and stitched 2 or 3 shots with perfect results.

    Because the CFV is a classic V mount, it can be mounted on a wide range of MF cameras using widely available adapters. I use one on a Mamiya RZ and can use it on a view camera ... obviously, on a view camera much wider angle lenses can be used.

    The current promo that includes the Zeiss 40IF lens is still amazing given that incredible lens retails for almost $6,000. alone.

    At long last, the ISO of the CFV will be boosted to 800 with the pending firmware upgrade to accompany the latest software version of Phocus.

    Here's some Hasselblad CFV info: including some more work ...

    http://www.hasselblad.com/planet-v/start.aspx

    http://www.hasselblad.com/planet-v/word.aspx

    http://www.hasselblad.com/planet-v/w...-williams.aspx

  11. #11
    tetsrfun
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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    fotografz may have a dealer rec. but to check what's included, go to B&H, Calumet or other sites. The "kit" with the 40mm is "only" 2k more than with the 80mm. The set with the 80mm is 1k more than I paid for the back alone 1 1/2 years ago.

    Steve

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    I would amend one thing Marc (Fotografz) said, though I rarely disagree with him. The SWC 903 is the widest option available for the CFV, not the 40mm; it has the 38mm biogon lens, one of the best ever made by Leitz. With the adapter, called "EL" i believe, it makes a wonderful little kit. I agree with everything else Marc said about the magic of this back. I am now using a H3DII-31 most of the time, but have been slow to sell the CFV and rest of the V kit because it is such a great system.

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    at the risk of heresy, I will be soon selling my 205TCC and CFV back with 80mm FE lens. this is the setup used for the navy yard shots. also offered will be a couple of very nice hassy lenses: 40mm (non -IF) and the 110/2.0 FE. this set is all plug and play. final element is the PC-Mutar 1.4x shift converter.

    pm me if interested, all is in prime condition

  14. #14
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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyHyde View Post
    I would amend one thing Marc (Fotografz) said, though I rarely disagree with him. The SWC 903 is the widest option available for the CFV, not the 40mm; it has the 38mm biogon lens, one of the best ever made by Leitz. With the adapter, called "EL" i believe, it makes a wonderful little kit. I agree with everything else Marc said about the magic of this back. I am now using a H3DII-31 most of the time, but have been slow to sell the CFV and rest of the V kit because it is such a great system.
    For me, there is satisfaction in going against the "tide" of disposable equipment. A 37 yo SWC "modernized". CFV with battery adapter.

    Steve
    Last edited by tetsrfun; 1st August 2010 at 18:31.

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    at the risk of heresy, I will be soon selling my 205TCC and CFV back with 80mm FE lens. this is the setup used for the navy yard shots. also offered will be a couple of very nice hassy lenses: 40mm (non -IF) and the 110/2.0 FE. this set is all plug and play. final element is the PC-Mutar 1.4x shift converter.

    pm me if interested, all is in prime condition
    John

    After all the wonderful shots you took with this rig I am very curious as to what rig you are going to. Curious minds want to know

    Best

    Woody

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Thanks for this post.
    How often do you actually use the CFV compared to the H-system - and for what prupose?
    Do you get the 40 focused reliable (its f4 which isnt really fast/bright)
    And..do you expect Hasselblad will introduced a square sensor in a larger size any time soon?
    The only thing that strikes me is that with the crop and regarding the lens one pays an awfull lot of money for a 40/4.0 lens and only used the middle of the lens.
    I use the H system for commercial work primarily. The CFV is mostly mounted on a 203FE with a 503CW as back-up ... I use that for personal work (like those car shots you mentioned) pretty frequently because I move back and forth between film and digital. Critical focusing in difficult light with a f/4 lens is achieved with a flip magnifier if using an 45 degree finder ... the flip up mag in the W/L finder is fine as is.

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    jlm - PM sent.

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    cfv vs P20+

    has anybody an idea how these two compare?
    Would the IQ at higher ISO of the P20+ be superior compared to that of the cfv?
    A new P20+ is not much more than a used cfvI.
    I think one other difference is that one would be forced to use a cable on a Hassy.
    Regards, Tom

  19. #19
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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    "A new P20+ is not much more than a used cfvI."
    ************
    In the US, the p20+ lists for $12,999 USD; the same price as the 503 CWD kit with the 40mm lens... or am I mistaken?

    Steve

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsrfun View Post
    "A new P20+ is not much more than a used cfvI."
    ************
    In the US, the p20+ lists for $12,999 USD; the same price as the 503 CWD kit with the 40mm lens... or am I mistaken?

    Steve
    The cwd Kit with the 40 is not available here in Germany for such a price ;(

    In Germany the price for a new cfvII is about 20-30% higher than that for a new P20+, or about the same as a new P21+ or a refurb P25.

    The price difference for between a mint cfv (1st generation) vs a new P20+ is about 1200 (in Germany).

  21. #21
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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    The cwd Kit with the 40 is not available here in Germany for such a price ;(

    In Germany the price for a new cfvII is about 20-30% higher than that for a new P20+, or about the same as a new P21+ or a refurb P25.

    The price difference for between a mint cfv (1st generation) vs a new P20+ is about 1200 € (in Germany).
    What is the cost for round trip air from Germany to NY?*g* Would you be heavily taxed on the new camera gear on the return to Germany? If not, combine shopping for a new camera with a trip to the South-West US, which seems to be very popular with Germans on vacation.

    Steve
    Last edited by tetsrfun; 6th November 2008 at 21:37. Reason: error

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsrfun View Post
    What is the cost for round trip air from Germany to NY?*g* Would you be heavily taxed on the new camera gear on the return to Germany? If not, combine shopping for a new camera with a trip to the South-West US, which seems to be very popular with Germans on vacation.

    Steve
    I answer here because it might be of interest for other people who would like to eventually buy in the US:
    it seems, from what I found in theinternet, that one pays:
    US-price + sales tax
    when importing a camera to Germany it is something between 0 and 7 % customs fee (I think 0 for camera, nearly 7 for lenses) + 19% tax (on top of the US-rpice+ US-sales tax)

    Whenever you cross a border, even a border inside Europe, the custom can check and ask you to proove, that the product has been imported correctly when it had been imported originally.

    So my conclusion:
    Add about 25% for customs and tax if you want to do it the "official" way + accept more trouble when you have a guarantee issue.

    So in the end it might not be worth it (at least for new articles).

  23. #23
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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    The cwd Kit with the 40 is not available here in Germany for such a price ;(

    In Germany the price for a new cfvII is about 20-30% higher than that for a new P20+, or about the same as a new P21+ or a refurb P25.

    The price difference for between a mint cfv (1st generation) vs a new P20+ is about 1200 (in Germany).
    For roughly $1,500. USD more ... I'd get get the Phase One. The sync cord is a PITA and the source of most mis-fires with digital backs ... but a gold tipped sync cord from Paramount cords can mitigate that issue to a good degree. Get a sync cord tip reconditioner while you are at it.

    The thing about the CFV that keeps it's value is that it is the ONLY fully functional digital back that can be used on a 200 series V camera. With 200 series bodies, all V lenses can be used ... including using the 500 series CF, CFi and CFE lenses as focal plane optics by setting them on the F setting to disable the leaf shutter ... or as Leaf Shutter optics by setting the 200 series camera's shutter speed ring to disable the focal plane shutter.

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    any P21(+) owners here?

    How good do you guys get along with the P21(+) and specially with the crop of that sensor?
    Are you happy or do you often wish you would have gone for a larger sensor (p25+) for example?
    Thanks, Tom

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    Re: any P21(+) owners here?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    How good do you guys get along with the P21(+) and specially with the crop of that sensor?
    Are you happy or do you often wish you would have gone for a larger sensor (p25+) for example?
    Thanks, Tom
    wrong thread, sorry. is it possible to delete my last post?

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    Re: question for CFV or 503cwd users

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I just read through several threads regarding the CFV and CFVII backs, including the one with the "ship"-images and the one from the "old cars".
    The images are brilliant to my eye.
    I have several questions regarding the CFV:

    -do you think the CFV+Hassy combo does deliever better or maybe lets say different imaqe quality than lets say a phase one back on a Hasselbladbody (and assuming using same lenses)
    I'd say image quality would be pretty much identical. The backs you are talking about all use Kodak chips and both Phase and Hasselblad do a very good job pulling data off those chips.

    -up to which ISO is usable and how would the ISO quality compare to a P25+ (or comparable) back?
    P25+ is a 22MP back and I would say probably has the edge in higher ISO, certainly allows longer exposures.

    -How bright is focusing screen and how good works focusing overall with this camera/finder?
    It's not that easy to focus for digital with a 500 series but a good screen really helps.
    -how limited do you feel with the "small" sensor? It seems "small" if one crops to 3:2 ration but if one likes square it doesnt seem that small anymore.
    I still shoot most days with a 384 (same chip as CFV) and the chip size never bothers me, I think it would though if I was doing Landscape/interiors.

    I think the CFV is an excellent solution if you can cope with the 1.5 crop, and the lack of a sync cord is very nice (but perhaps not worth $1500 as Marc said).
    Nick-T

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