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Thread: H3DII39 or P45+

  1. #101
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    I think Howard is pointing out that DOF is dependant on the circle of confusion (COC) which the larger you print the less in focus things appear in front of and behind the chosen focus distance. In other words, in a small print your COC is adequate to make things appear to be in focus. As you go larger and larger this is not so. Setting a lens to the hyperfocal distance does not perfectly focus everything. Only the selected focus distance is perfectly in focus. The rest falls off based on the COC which changes with the size of the sensor and print.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    May I ask what sort of work you do? Because a reasonable number of people have not yet made this point (which would, now I come to think about it, would appear self-evident) and that might imply that it is more of a problem for certain sorts of work? I would have thought that for landscapes where the foreground interest is, say, ten metres away and the background is generally half a mile or so, mid-range glass should work?

    I'll tootle off to a DOF calculator and try it out!

    T

    I just did so, at

    http://www.panavision.co.nz/main/kba...alcFOVform.asp

    coincidentally for a P45+ the first aperture which gives focus from 10 metres to infinity with an 80mm lens is F16... at which aperture you're in focus from 5.02 metres onwards

  2. #102
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by smhoer View Post
    I think Howard is pointing out that DOF is dependant on the circle of confusion (COC) which the larger you print the less in focus things appear in front of and behind the chosen focus distance. In other words, in a small print your COC is adequate to make things appear to be in focus. As you go larger and larger this is not so. Setting a lens to the hyperfocal distance does not perfectly focus everything. Only the selected focus distance is perfectly in focus. The rest falls off based on the COC which changes with the size of the sensor and print.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_confusion
    Thanks, Scott. That is exactly what I meant, just not explained as well as you did. [G]

  3. #103
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    May I ask what sort of work you do? Because a reasonable number of people have not yet made this point (which would, now I come to think about it, would appear self-evident) and that might imply that it is more of a problem for certain sorts of work? I would have thought that for landscapes where the foreground interest is, say, ten metres away and the background is generally half a mile or so, mid-range glass should work?

    I'll tootle off to a DOF calculator and try it out!

    T

    I just did so, at

    http://www.panavision.co.nz/main/kba...alcFOVform.asp

    coincidentally for a P45+ the first aperture which gives focus from 10 metres to infinity with an 80mm lens is F16... at which aperture you're in focus from 5.02 metres onwards
    I do landscape work. I use the Hasselblad 50-110 zoom quite a bit, and I often have important elements in the photograph(trees, rocks, foliage) that are less than 10 meters away. Moreover, as Scott H. explains in a later post here, the zone of "acceptable sharpness" when you set the lens at the hyperfocal distance will compress depending upon size of the sensor, the size of the print, and your own perception of "acceptable sharpness".

  4. #104
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    When I shoot landscapes I always use one f-stop less than the lens say to use when using hyperfocal distance. The manufacturers use a COC based on small prints. When I use MF I use the COC for 35mm and still use one stop less. There are quite a few hyperfocal distance calculators out there for windows mobile and apple phones that allow you to choose your own COC to do your calcs. I often print up to 90" stitched panoramics and until I started using this method I often had out of focus foregrounds. Out of focus horizons are often usable with some sharpening as the mind is used to seeing some haze on the horizon. Just my two cents.

    Hey Howard, I am getting near my purchase of a MFD system. Thanks for the off-line advice earlier. Hope you are enjoying fall in NE.

  5. #105
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    I do landscape work. I use the Hasselblad 50-110 zoom quite a bit, and I often have important elements in the photograph(trees, rocks, foliage) that are less than 10 meters away. Moreover, as Scott H. explains in a later post here, the zone of "acceptable sharpness" when you set the lens at the hyperfocal distance will compress depending upon size of the sensor, the size of the print, and your own perception of "acceptable sharpness".
    I'm aware of all this - I've been trying to get my head around the impossible feat of 'knowing' what DOF I'll get with different sets of variables for nearly 40 years!

    I used to hide behind the old wives' tale that viewing conditions are somehow made equal by people intuitively stepping back or forward so as to view from a distance approximately equal to the diagonal of the print. But anyone who has been to an exhibit of big images recently will know that this is tosh: curators often choose to force the viewer's nose up against enormous prints so as to

    a) immerse them or possibly and more cynically
    b) Sort the men out from the boys in terms of who can 'do a Crewdson'

    In b) above I mean to say that with digicams getting better and better, there is a stronger tendency amongst Joe Public to say 'I could have taken that shot myself'. And therefore not to be willing to pay a lot for it. But put Joe one foot in front of a 2 metre wide print taken on 10 x 8 film and he'll know that's not true!

    Now: I agree with you absolutely that under any circumstances there is only one point that is in exact focus. I also agree with you that perceived sharpness of focus varies with viewing distance and from person to person. So it's actually very hard to ask a question like I did above and expect a meaningful answer because the truth is I won't know for sure until I try it with my new camera and my workflow and my print size and viewing conditions. But I also have a good-ish rule (and that tallies with another post here!) that for prints up to 24 x 36" viewed at about two feet, one stop tighter aperture than the DOF tables suggest will give me roughly what I need. This varies per subject, lens (some have backwards focus shift as you stop down and the tables never tell you that) and so on. But I did find that with a 4x5 view camera I was able to get pretty good focus at F16 and a 150mm lens for my kinds of landscapes.

    Phew!

    Tim

  6. #106
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    Unfortunately, the HTS device is not out yet and the Hasselblad employees are the only ones who have tested it. They probably know how it stacks up against the Hartblei, but they have not, to my knowledge, released any hard test data or even anecdotal comparisons with the Hatblei. Eventually, we will see hard data and first hand field experience with both set-ups. It's also worth noting that the Hartblei is the only T/S lens for the Phamiya. If the T/S capability is important to you, why limit yourself to one focal length. The HTS 1.5 can be used with the 28, 35, 50, 80 and 100mm lenses.
    Hi Howard
    Well I was a temporary Hasselblad employee at Photokina and really gave the HTS a good workout.

    A few things to note; I couldn't see any image degradation when using the HTS (it has 5 elements) at 100%.

    Graham talks about "smearing" caused by software corrections, again I haven't seen it and have been using DAC corrections for at least a year in my studio, perhaps graham can show some examples.

    Yes Phase do have corrections but the mamiya does not pass back sensor plane to subject distance which is critical in making DAc corrections.

    The Hartblei is an older design and does not have a great reputation for sharpness. I guess this is why Phase are adding some new coatings, it will be interesting to see some tests.

    The HTS is unique (to the best of my knowledge) in that it has sensors reporting tilt/shift/rotation. That data makes the DAc corrections extremely effective (the distortion correction is remarkable!).

    Nick-T

  7. #107
    Senior Member eleanorbrown's Avatar
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    Re: Rhttp://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&pe: H3DII39 or

    I am one of these people caught in the middle with one foot in each camp. Been a very long time Hasselblad user and have had three Phase backs, the 4th one is on order. I like dealing with the reps from each company and am thrilled with both systems. I am also very saddened that Hasselblad has closed their system. I'm neither stupid nor naive and agree that this was a corporate executive/marketing decision and money is the bottom line (which is their right BTW, but it hurts those of us consumers who have a long time loyalty to both companies.) Eleanor

    This is a technical decision rather then a marketing decision. Hasselblad designed their first digital HCD lens to cover the image circle of a 22/39/50mp sensor, the 28mm was announced at Photokina 2006 Hasselblad at the same time we announced our 3rd generation H3D platform 2 years ago.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA



    There are zero technical reasons why the Hasselblad 28mm lens cannot be used with a Phase One back. There is no reason why the H3 body cannot be used with a Phase One back. These were marketing decisions which bode poorly for the future of Hasselblad's openess.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio[/QUOTE]

  8. #108
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    I for myself am also caught between the 2 - Hasselblad and Phase!

    For me all the arguments discussed here are clear and I fully agree to most of them. Especially that it was a marketing decision that Hasselblad closed their system. But I think it was a smart move for their own business and this is what a company finally has to look for - so perfectly ok for me.

    Having compared the 2 systems to a certain level I would say that technically both are somehow equal for my needs in the end of the day. When it comes to final buying decision there is

    1) left the price, which is more attractive currently for the H System - especially if you compare the P45+ against the H3D239

    2) the representation in my country and this is also clearly directing me towards Hasselblad (and PLEASE, this is nothing personal for or against any individuals working in either representation, but Hasselblad is just the better concept, which allows the reps to be much better responsive and have more time for the customer, which makes up a very big part at least for my decisions).

    Things I love about Phase is their SW, which I find really outstanding, especially as it supports also all DSLR RAWs, so I can use it for both the Phase backs and my current DSLR, which Phocus unfortunately does not and as far as I understand will never do.

    So looking forward to test next week a lot of the Phase gear and get more headaches again

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Having compared the 2 systems to a certain level I would say that technically both are somehow equal for my needs in the end of the day. When it comes to final buying decision there is

    1) left the price, which is more attractive currently for the H System - especially if you compare the P45+ against the H3D239

    2) the representation in my country and this is also clearly directing me towards Hasselblad (and PLEASE, this is nothing personal for or against any individuals working in either representation, but Hasselblad is just the better concept, which allows the reps to be much better responsive and have more time for the customer, which makes up a very big part at least for my decisions).




    I had p25 and p45+ with h1/h2, I used to love my sistem.

    My problem with phase one was lack of support, and lack of respect.

    I got h3d-50 , it's cost less money then p45+ without a camera.

    and the service is the best of the best to me.

    even so when Lance Schad was with phase one the service was equal as hasselblad.

    I don't know what happen to him but he was one of the best for phase one.(to me)

    Now with hasselblad I feel I got it all, next to my door.

    plus


    Blas

  10. #110
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by BlasR View Post
    Having compared the 2 systems to a certain level I would say that technically both are somehow equal for my needs in the end of the day. When it comes to final buying decision there is

    1) left the price, which is more attractive currently for the H System - especially if you compare the P45+ against the H3D239

    2) the representation in my country and this is also clearly directing me towards Hasselblad (and PLEASE, this is nothing personal for or against any individuals working in either representation, but Hasselblad is just the better concept, which allows the reps to be much better responsive and have more time for the customer, which makes up a very big part at least for my decisions).




    I had p25 and p45+ with h1/h2, I used to love my sistem.

    My problem with phase one was lack of support, and lack of respect.

    I got h3d-50 , it's cost less money then p45+ without a camera.

    and the service is the best of the best to me.

    even so when Lance Schad was with phase one the service was equal as hasselblad.

    I don't know what happen to him but he was one of the best for phase one.(to me)

    Now with hasselblad I feel I got it all, next to my door.

    plus


    Blas
    Thanks for sharing that!

    I can only talk for Austria and the representations as well as their readiness and friendliness. here Hasselblad is the clear winner - by far.

    And yes, same observation here - a Phase One camere plus P45+ back without lens goes for a price of 19.990.- whole a H3D2 with 50MP back goes for 17.990.- without lens. Given this the decisions are pretty straight forward I would say.

    Issue is only the Software - C1, I am used to it and can also handle all my DSLR and M8 files with it. I cannot with Phocus - which is a certain limitation to me as I am lazy WRT that fact.

    Enjoy your H3D2/50

  11. #111
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Thanks for sharing that!

    I can only talk for Austria and the representations as well as their readiness and friendliness. here Hasselblad is the clear winner - by far.

    And yes, same observation here - a Phase One camere plus P45+ back without lens goes for a price of €19.990.- whole a H3D2 with 50MP back goes for €17.990.- without lens. Given this the decisions are pretty straight forward I would say.

    Issue is only the Software - C1, I am used to it and can also handle all my DSLR and M8 files with it. I cannot with Phocus - which is a certain limitation to me as I am lazy WRT that fact.

    Enjoy your H3D2/50
    I'm lazy my self to, but when it's come to customer service, and save money, plus an excellent camera, I guess I need to give something, , if you need support with phocus, is alot of rep, the will help you, even if you are very far away.

    They always there for me. Reason #1 to get hasseblad (to me).

    Good luck

    Blas

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    And yes, same observation here - a Phase One camere plus P45+ back without lens goes for a price of 19.990.- whole a H3D2 with 50MP back goes for 17.990.- without lens. Given this the decisions are pretty straight forward I would say.
    It's all a matter of perspective.

    From my biased point of view the take home message is that DESPITE the difference in price Phase is still selling lots of P40+, P45+, and P65+ backs. No one can force a buyer into a purchase so clearly for many the price is worth it.

    Also, there is a bit of cherry picking here. If you price out ten complete kits based on different lens/body/back combinations with different combinations of used/new/refurb/demo/upgrades you'll find that sometimes Phase is less expensive and sometimes Hassy is less expensive.

    Pick the tool you need and then look for a deal on it. Don't find deals and determine if they are a tool you can use.

    Doug

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  13. #113
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    It's all a matter of perspective.

    From my biased point of view the take home message is that DESPITE the difference in price Phase is still selling lots of P40+, P45+, and P65+ backs. No one can force a buyer into a purchase so clearly for many the price is worth it.

    Also, there is a bit of cherry picking here. If you price out ten complete kits based on different lens/body/back combinations with different combinations of used/new/refurb/demo/upgrades you'll find that sometimes Phase is less expensive and sometimes Hassy is less expensive.

    Pick the tool you need and then look for a deal on it. Don't find deals and determine if they are a tool you can use.

    Doug

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    You are right Doug - it is only not making the decision easier how the local rep in Austria is dealing with customers. No flexibility and no time. This is not what I really expect if I spend say 30k into a system.

    In the end of the day it is all about people and human connections and how you can communicate with someone. And as I said, this is just the case here in Austria, I cannot judge other countries and it might be 180 degrees different there. But for Austria this is kind of the status.

    Looking forward to test the Phase backs and cameras next week ......

  14. #114
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Me too. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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