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Thread: H3DII39 or P45+

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    H3DII39 or P45+

    Hi All,

    I'm about to plump for a kit based round one or other of the above. The Hassy kit is a little cheaper and will let me later purchase that amazing tilt shift adaptor, the P45+ is philosophically more appealing as a result of the open system approach.

    I'll assume for the moment that IQ is almost identical. I'll also assume that the small huffiness I feel about Hassy doing lens correction in software rather than in lens is misplaced: I use an M8 and that is also doing lens correction in software and that really doesn't bother me.

    As far as I can see it comes down to a few questions:

    1) The p45+ Phamiya solution has a sort of live view though I hear it's cruddy. Does that Hassy have it at all?

    2) The P45+ has long exposures, which I might well use.

    3) I never use a studio and almost never use flash so he hassy leaf shutter advantage is lost on me in comparison to the loss of high shutter speeds. I'm a landscape man at heart so will need deep DOF but I would also like sometimes to use extreme narrow DOF and in daylight with 1/800th max shutter that would mean carrying ND filters, which is dull.

    4) It is abysmally unclear from the manufacturers' websites what is included in the kits. That might be a relevant factor. Does anyone know?

    So far my heart says Hassy but my checklist says Phase, just. My wallet merely screams!

    I'll be selling one M8 and a 1DSIII+ glass and an MP and a Wista field Cam.

    Any thoughts? (BTW have now counted out Leaf/Sinar and MF film for various reasons and am unlikely to change my mind!)

    Best

    Tim

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    With the H3 you will be locked in to a closed system, I think the Mamiya?phase is a little more open. Perhaps better for resale down the road. I am going to wait to see how the S2 shakes out. I think prices will drop on all MF.

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    I think the real issue comes down to the specifics of *your* hierarchy of needs. The following probably highlight the two largest differences between the systems:

    1) Do you need leaf-shutter lenses for higher flash synch speeds or do you need faster net shutter speeds for outdoor use?

    2) Which conversion/tethering software better suits your style of shooting?

    3) FWIW, note that you can use the P45+ on a Hassy H2 body if you like the Hassy camera but prefer the Phase back and/or software.

    The good news is there is not a bad decision between them
    Jack
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    My wallet merely screams!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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    Rhttp://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&pe: H3DII39 or P45+

    Sorry, it's Sunday and I have a hot date, or I would answer more of your questions.

    Maybe you got the impression that Hassy was the only one to do lens corrections because they locked their 28mm lens from use with anyone else's back. That was a marketing rather than technical decision. In fact all of the companies, including Phase (see Capture One 4.5.1) do some form of lens correction in software. To not do so would simply be giving up IQ in the pursuit of some form of purity.

    Re: the kit. Here is what the kit for a DB includes. There is a separate kit when you're buying the DB+Camera+Lens which includes a really hot roller case. I'm sure on Monday that Lance would be happy to let you know what's included in that kit.

    Neither Hassy's nor Phase's Live View are practical when used outside. They are all suited for tabletop work.

    If you don't need the advantages of leaf shutters then you'll be paying an unnecessary premium (weight and cost) for every lens which adds up quick if you want to have a full range of lenses. See this recent thread about the prices for older MF lenses to fill out your range with a Phamiya.

    Also, if you're shooting landscapes you may find that in the long run you may switch to a tech camera such as the Horeseman SWD or Cambo WDS/RS. These bodies are built for landscape; they are slow as molasses to work with (relatively at least, still much faster than a film view camera) but offer absolutely unbeatable lens quality (they use simple-lens-design, non retrofocus large format glass from Schneider and Rodenstock) and the ability to stitch within the image circle. Since the Phase uses a separate battery for the back it fits on the back of such a tech camera without the need for a separate image bank/battery. Having a Phase body and a Tech camera is also pretty common. Each tool has its place.

    Speaking of which... You may find that your M8 still fills part of your shooting needs. I don't know your budget and such, but every tool has it's place. A P45+ will destroy an M8 as a landscape camera hands down, but there will be situations where an M8 is simply a more appropriate tool.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The good news is there is not a bad decision between them
    Jack is of course right. One of them will fit better for you, but both are good systems. Really, in this end of the market there are few "bad" systems. Phase One and Hasselblad have taken fundamentally different directions (openness vs. closed integration) the last two years, but they both still produce quality products.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Thanks Guys... I think it really is coming down to the phase though maybe with that 45mm TS lens as my starter lens, rather than the 80mm. It's a pity the LCD is sooo tiny (I hear you can't even read menu text on it properly) but in the end the shutter speed is probably the killer factor, plus the cheaper options for filling out the lens bag...

    BTW I will certainly be keeping an M8.2 - it's my always and everywhere camera - plus a bag of nice glass (there's a nocti at the bottom of the bag!). I'll also keep a Pentax K20D with 300mm F4 and 16-50 f2.8 lenses - a good daybag to cover all eventualities.

    Best

    Tim

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    I am working with Hasselblad to get an HD3-II 39ms + HTS 1.5 for testing and review. It may not be in time for your decision, but I welcome you to read it when I am finished. I find myself swayed by the HTS 1.5 as well.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    I am working with Hasselblad to get an HD3-II 39ms + HTS 1.5 for testing and review. It may not be in time for your decision, but I welcome you to read it when I am finished. I find myself swayed by the HTS 1.5 as well.
    Hi Carlos,

    Thanks - I look forward to it. But I must say that the new Phase one 45mm TS will end up as being very similar to the Hassy 28mm + 1.5 TS except for it will have a better max aperture. Michael Reichmann's review of the Hartblei 45mm is instructive since the new P1 lens is developed in conjunction with Hartblei and in fact looks.... well... the same!

    http://luminous-landscape.com/review...rtblei45.shtml

    Best

    Tim

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    (snip) It's a pity the LCD is sooo tiny (I hear you can't even read menu text on it properly) but in the end the shutter speed is probably the killer factor, plus the cheaper options for filling out the lens bag...

    (snip)
    Hi Tim,

    I'd like to clarify that, at least from my perspective, reading menu text on the Phase One back is not difficult and is in fact quite clear and easy. The menus are simple and don't involve lengthy text, have large text with good (enough) contrast for reading. I say this as one who wears eyeglasses which are almost worthless for reading a newspaper (and therefore change to reading glasses for books, magazines, papers, or anything needing such acuity) yet have never even had a moment of frustration reading the Phase One menus with my normal glasses.

    Now evaluating focus on the LCD is another story, but I don't use an LCD for that, though I religiously use the histogram. I would like a bit more visibility of the histogram in outdoor use, but it is serviceable.

    Hope this helps your process.

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    It's a pity the LCD is sooo tiny
    Agreed, BUT.... The Phase "+" LCD also has the highest resolution, and as such you can actually use it's image review in the field to confirm fine focus. A small point for some, larger for others, but one I think is worth mentioning.
    Jack
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Haha. Jack and I sort of double posted, but with slightly different comments.

    I don't use the LCD for focusing (fine or otherwise) but that may also be because I don't see that well at that viewing distance without changing to my reading glasses. Jack obviously has the eyesight of an 18 year old.

    Also, I should have added that I'm using a "+" back as well.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Hi Tim,

    I'd like to clarify that, at least from my perspective, reading menu text on the Phase One back is not difficult and is in fact quite clear and easy. The menus are simple and don't involve lengthy text, have large text with good (enough) contrast for reading. I say this as one who wears eyeglasses which are almost worthless for reading a newspaper (and therefore change to reading glasses for books, magazines, papers, or anything needing such acuity) yet have never even had a moment of frustration reading the Phase One menus with my normal glasses.

    Now evaluating focus on the LCD is another story, but I don't use an LCD for that, though I religiously use the histogram. I would like a bit more visibility of the histogram in outdoor use, but it is serviceable.

    Hope this helps your process.
    Hi Dale,

    I was talking about Reichmann's comments on his LL review about the body's LCD and about how the custom function menus aren't legible and how you have to carry the instruction card... but I've yet to play with the beast myself!

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Aha, Tim, sorry about that. I misunderstood the reference in your post.

    I'm jet lagging pretty hard right now, so maybe I should stick to reading (and re-reading) and not posting for a day or two.


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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    You want to consider contact Global Imaging. They exited the medium format market (as a dealer) earlier this year and they are clearancing their stock. According to their last webpage update they have two H3DII-39 kits for $15,999. I do not know if they are new, demo's or rentals. But for $15k, I'd find out. Global Imaging Clearance Page Also, one the dealers here posted a H3DII-39 trade in for $15,250. There are some great deals out there on the used market if you're open to that option.

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I must say that the new Phase one 45mm TS will end up as being very similar to the Hassy 28mm + 1.5 TS except for it will have a better max aperture. Michael Reichmann's review of the Hartblei 45mm is instructive since the new P1 lens is developed in conjunction with Hartblei and in fact looks.... well... the same!
    The Hartblei 45mm TS can be found, with a bit of patience, for just below $1000. The Phase One version will be basically the same, possibly with better coatings, but to my knowledge will cost around $3000. That kinda sits wrong with me, especially as Phase has apparently bought up *all* the remaining Hartbleis... Does anyone have more accurate information on this situation?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    There is a Hartblei Super Rotator for sale now on this website

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    You want to consider contact Global Imaging. They exited the medium format market (as a dealer) earlier this year and they are clearancing their stock. According to their last webpage update they have two H3DII-39 kits for $15,999. I do not know if they are new, demo's or rentals. But for $15k, I'd find out. Global Imaging Clearance Page Also, one the dealers here posted a H3DII-39 trade in for $15,250. There are some great deals out there on the used market if you're open to that option.
    You are assuming that I have money...
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Hi Dale,

    I was talking about Reichmann's comments on his LL review about the body's LCD and about how the custom function menus aren't legible and how you have to carry the instruction card... but I've yet to play with the beast myself!
    Those comments are perfectly fair. While the shutter speed and aperture are easy to read, the custom functions are, in practice, unchangeable in the field without the documentation card (or the memory of an elephant). We find that for most photographers this is not a big deal as there are few, if any, custom functions you would change in the field. The kit that the Phase One body ships with has a great little quick reference card set which is pretty small and compact and has the most essential information for both the back and the body (including the body's custom functions).

    The day we have a new 45 T/S in our office we will be running through its paces and posting tests so everyone can make their own objective decisions.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The Hartblei 45mm TS can be found, with a bit of patience, for just below $1000. The Phase One version will be basically the same, possibly with better coatings, but to my knowledge will cost around $3000. That kinda sits wrong with me, especially as Phase has apparently bought up *all* the remaining Hartbleis... Does anyone have more accurate information on this situation?
    I read that also...essentially no changes for x3 the price. Maybe there is more added value that hasn't be mentioned..or maybe not.

    Steve

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    "Super Rotator lenses are out of stock" (Hartblei)

    http://www.hartblei.com/price_list.htm

    Looks like 'someone' has sucked supply out of the new market at the old low price!

    Not very surprised here!

    t

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I don't see that well at that viewing distance without changing to my reading glasses. Jack obviously has the eyesight of an 18 year old.
    Nope... Jack keeps a set of reading cheaters with him
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    There is nothing 'open' about a back which has to be sent in to have its mount changed. The only 'open' systems are from Hasselbald in the CF range of backs and Sinar - both of which offer user changeable adaptor plates ( at a price ) of course.

    I would suggest that you definitely rent/try before you buy - it is the little things in the end that end up bugging you the most - and you dont know what the 'little' things will be until you start using the gear.

    I use Phocus and C1 ( trial version(s) ) as I cant seem to get my software to work from Phase - and have to say that if forced to choose between the two Phocus is a much better system ( for me) - there would be others that disagree - I dont really care about someone else's workflow - and neither should you - again test it.

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    PeterA, I'm confused on why sending in the back to have a plate changed or not makes it "open" or "closed." Both need plate changes, one you can do yourself, one you can't. Doesn't mean you can't do it. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but Phase gives you a free platform change with the 3-year VA warranty.

    EDIT: Well, the 3-year gives you "3-Year Free Platform Swap Guarantee" though I'm not 100% clear on what that means. Maybe I mispoke.

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    Member Paul Claesson Hasselblad's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Agreed, BUT.... The Phase "+" LCD also has the highest resolution, and as such you can actually use it's image review in the field to confirm fine focus. A small point for some, larger for others, but one I think is worth mentioning.
    Jack,

    After reviewing the Phase 45+ and 65+ datasheets they indicate 2.2" screen at 230,400 pixels.

    Hasselblad H3DII offers a 3" display at 230, 400 pixels also found in the datasheets at www.hasselbladusa.com > downloads

    Personally i would opt for the larger display.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Tim

    I have an essentially brand new H3DII-39 which I am again thinking about selling. I hAve had recent surgery on my thumb and doubt that I will regain enough strength and mobility to handle the big MFDB system. In fact I am likely to go back to only my M8. There are seven months left on the original warranty.

    PM me if you have any interest

    best

    Woody

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Thanks Woody - I just did!

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by jmvdigital View Post
    PeterA, I'm confused on why sending in the back to have a plate changed or not makes it "open" or "closed." Both need plate changes, one you can do yourself, one you can't. Doesn't mean you can't do it. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but Phase gives you a free platform change with the 3-year VA warranty.

    EDIT: Well, the 3-year gives you "3-Year Free Platform Swap Guarantee" though I'm not 100% clear on what that means. Maybe I mispoke.
    With the Phase One 3-Year Value Added Warranty, you are allowed to do a 1 time platform swap for free.

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    Re: Rhttp://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&pe: H3DII39 or

    Maybe you got the impression that Hassy was the only one to do lens corrections because they locked their 28mm lens from use with anyone else's back. That was a marketing rather than technical decision. In fact all of the companies, including Phase (see Capture One 4.5.1) do some form of lens correction in software. To not do so would simply be giving up IQ in the pursuit of some form of purity.
    First i would like to say that the Phrases "Closed System" and "Locked" are Phase generated. Hasselblad created the first integrated DSLR in 2004 with the H1D followed by the H2D in 2005.

    There are tremendous benifits of having a system that is completely integrated and Hasselblads competitors are following suite with their first generation DSLR cameras.

    We have a very unique advantage whereas we have a hand in designing and manufacturing everything from the Digital magazines, Bodies and Lenses. Yes, we do have an optical design team in Sweden that has designed every HC and HCD lens. We provide all MTF data on our website so photographers can compare optics wether it be an HC/HCD or Zeiss lens. We manufacture the electro-mechanical shutter at the factory in Sweden.

    Lens corrections are not specific to the 28mm HCD but across the spectrum of 11 HC/HCD lenses from 28mm to the 300mm including the 50-110, 35-90, HTS 1.5 tilt shift, 3 extension tubes, 1.7x tele-converter. Hasselblad has created in excess of 50,000 data files, mapping each focal lenght at every aperture and focus distance with each combination of above items.

    Does C1 use generic lens data for Lens + or have they gone through the process of mapping every optic? I already know the answer to this question ...

    This is a technical decision rather then a marketing decision. Hasselblad designed their first digital HCD lens to cover the image circle of a 22/39/50mp sensor, the 28mm was announced at Photokina 2006 Hasselblad at the same time we announced our 3rd generation H3D platform 2 years ago.

    It is relatively easy to design a lens dedicated to specific sensor dimension that is sharp edge to edge that exhibits a small level of distortion which can be corrected in software, thereby reducing the weight, size, and offer an overall cost savings.

    Hasselblad was the first any medium format company to introduce DAC (digital auto corrections) and now years later companies are following Hasselblads lead and trying to implement the same. We have 3 levels:

    Level 1: Chromatic Aberration correction
    Level 2: Distortion correction
    Level 3: Vignetting correction

    Also, if you're shooting landscapes you may find that in the long run you may switch to a tech camera such as the Horeseman SWD or Cambo WDS/RS. These bodies are built for landscape; they are slow as molasses to work with (relatively at least, still much faster than a film view camera) but offer absolutely unbeatable lens quality (they use simple-lens-design, non retrofocus large format glass from Schneider and Rodenstock) and the ability to stitch within the image circle. Since the Phase uses a separate battery for the back it fits on the back of such a tech camera without the need for a separate image bank/battery. Having a Phase body and a Tech camera is also pretty common. Each tool has its place.
    You can certainly remove the H3DII digital magazine and mount it to any technical camera that has an H mount. Power can be provided via our 100GB Image Bank II with a standard Sony InfoLithium battery attached, shoot tethered to laptop or use the HTS (tilt-shift) with your H1, H2, H3DII camera:

    Hasselblad Photokina HTS video



    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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    Member Paul Claesson Hasselblad's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Hi Carlos,

    Thanks - I look forward to it. But I must say that the new Phase one 45mm TS will end up as being very similar to the Hassy 28mm + 1.5 TS except for it will have a better max aperture. Michael Reichmann's review of the Hartblei 45mm is instructive since the new P1 lens is developed in conjunction with Hartblei and in fact looks.... well... the same!

    http://luminous-landscape.com/review...rtblei45.shtml

    Best

    Tim
    I don't see the similarity between these two products other then being a tilt-shift device.

    The Hasselblad HTS can be used with the 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm and 100mm lenses on H1, H2, H2F, H1D, H2D, H3D and H3DII cameras. If you are using the H2F/CF back or H3D/H3DII you will be able to utilize Level 1, 2 and 3 Digital Auto Corrections. All data relating to movement tilt, shift and rotation is embedded within the file and can be viewed in Phocus, see screenshot, note information to the right of lens.

    See the HTS Datasheet for the MTF (Modulation Transfer Function) data for each of the lenses on page 6. I can't find any MTF data for the Phase One/Hartblei to compare, i will continue to look.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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    Re: Rhttp://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&pe: H3DII39 or

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Claesson Hasselblad View Post
    First i would like to say that the Phrases "Closed System" and "Locked" are Phase generated. Hasselblad created the first integrated DSLR in 2004 with the H1D followed by the H2D in 2005.

    There are tremendous benifits of having a system that is completely integrated and Hasselblads competitors are following suite with their first generation DSLR cameras.

    We have a very unique advantage whereas we have a hand in designing and manufacturing everything from the Digital magazines, Bodies and Lenses. Yes, we do have an optical design team in Sweden that has designed every HC and HCD lens. We provide all MTF data on our website so photographers can compare optics wether it be an HC/HCD or Zeiss lens. We manufacture the electro-mechanical shutter at the factory in Sweden.

    Lens corrections are not specific to the 28mm HCD but across the spectrum of 11 HC/HCD lenses from 28mm to the 300mm including the 50-110, 35-90, HTS 1.5 tilt shift, 3 extension tubes, 1.7x tele-converter. Hasselblad has created in excess of 50,000 data files, mapping each focal lenght at every aperture and focus distance with each combination of above items.

    Does C1 use generic lens data for Lens + or have they gone through the process of mapping every optic? I already know the answer to this question ...

    This is a technical decision rather then a marketing decision. Hasselblad designed their first digital HCD lens to cover the image circle of a 22/39/50mp sensor, the 28mm was announced at Photokina 2006 Hasselblad at the same time we announced our 3rd generation H3D platform 2 years ago.

    It is relatively easy to design a lens dedicated to specific sensor dimension that is sharp edge to edge that exhibits a small level of distortion which can be corrected in software, thereby reducing the weight, size, and offer an overall cost savings.

    Hasselblad was the first any medium format company to introduce DAC (digital auto corrections) and now years later companies are following Hasselblads lead and trying to implement the same. We have 3 levels:

    Level 1: Chromatic Aberration correction
    Level 2: Distortion correction
    Level 3: Vignetting correction



    You can certainly remove the H3DII digital magazine and mount it to any technical camera that has an H mount. Power can be provided via our 100GB Image Bank II with a standard Sony InfoLithium battery attached, shoot tethered to laptop or use the HTS (tilt-shift) with your H1, H2, H3DII camera:

    Hasselblad Photokina HTS video



    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA


    Software-based lens corrections are a valuable way to correct deficiencies in lens design and manufacturing. Hasselblad has done a nice job employing this, particularly with their 28mm HCD lens. However, Phase One has also implemented lens corrections and has done so for a multitude of optical systems, including Hasselblad H lenses, Contax AF, and Phase One/Mamiya lenses. These corrections are specific to these lenses and not generic. How we actually produce the corrections is not 100% known to me at this time, but I will get an explanation of the process shortly.

    One of the benefits of producing more optically correct lenses rather than placing the emphasis of correcting them later is that your view through the viewfinder is more accurate.

    I agree that camera integration is a good thing and Phase One is continuing to evolve that process by working closer and closer with Mamiya and I expect that to continue to evolve in the same direction.

    Regarding using an H3DII on a view camera, because of the necessity of having to purchase the $2,000 Imagebank to use as a power source, Phase One has a clear advantage as all Phase One digital backs have their own internal battery power source.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    I feel like I'm at a tennis match.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Thanks chaps, more and more useful information to consider.

    I am curious to hear what Paul has to say about the use of the h3DII 39 as a landscape camera - or indeed what anyone else ahs to say: the max shutter speed of 1/800th does seem rather limiting as to DOF...

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Hi Tim
    Good Luck with your new venture . .. I've backed away, for the time being at least!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Rhttp://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&pe: H3DII39 or

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/Phase One View Post
    Regarding using an H3DII on a view camera, because of the necessity of having to purchase the $2,000 Imagebank to use as a power source, Phase One has a clear advantage as all Phase One digital backs have their own internal battery power source.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

    Not exactly.

    One can spring for the Imagebank or use the firewire out of a Macbook or use any external battery that supplies 12v via a Belkin firwire router and cable for about $175 total cost...downside is that you have to capture to the CF card in the back...oh wait a minute, that is how my old P20 back stored captures. So a couple of cables more but really $175 in view of the total cost of acquisition is pretty minor. The battery is moderate sized allows for 12hr + shooting and can be belt mounted.

    None of these is enough reason in and of itself to purchase a system. Integration of all components is important but you just have to decide which color you like the best.

    Bob Moore

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks chaps, more and more useful information to consider.

    I am curious to hear what Paul has to say about the use of the h3DII 39 as a landscape camera - or indeed what anyone else ahs to say: the max shutter speed of 1/800th does seem rather limiting as to DOF...
    I personally think that H3DII would be an excellent choice for Landscape photography. I've been shooting with Hasselblads for well over 30 years and found the top shutter speed of 1/500 second on the 500 series nor 1/800 second was a limitation in any way. Of course you would have to take into account the type of work that I did professionally vs. my current personal work. The needs are different.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks chaps, more and more useful information to consider.

    I am curious to hear what Paul has to say about the use of the h3DII 39 as a landscape camera - or indeed what anyone else ahs to say: the max shutter speed of 1/800th does seem rather limiting as to DOF...
    We should clarify a relatively slow top shutter speed is only a limitation to generating SHALLOW DoF under brighter lighting... In "normal" outdoor light at ISO 100, your max aperture would be approximately f5.6 @ 1/800th. So if you wanted f4 or f2.8, you'd need to mount an ND filter or use a camera with faster shutter speeds or lower ISO...

    I rarely want shallow DoF in landscapes, though I definitely do in a few certain situations. However, I find I like shallow DoF for many street or natural light portrait sessions, and this is where I find the higher shutter speeds beneficial.

    All FWIW,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Rhttp://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&pe: H3DII39 or

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Not exactly.

    One can spring for the Imagebank or use the firewire out of a Macbook or use any external battery that supplies 12v via a Belkin firwire router and cable for about $175 total cost...downside is that you have to capture to the CF card in the back...oh wait a minute, that is how my old P20 back stored captures. So a couple of cables more but really $175 in view of the total cost of acquisition is pretty minor. The battery is moderate sized allows for 12hr + shooting and can be belt mounted.

    None of these is enough reason in and of itself to purchase a system. Integration of all components is important but you just have to decide which color you like the best.

    Bob Moore
    Good point Bob. Although the battery option would be an option for a Phase One DB as well.

    Our advantage is that you can shoot view camera or technical camera without having to deal with any external power sources, battery or what have you if you don't wish to.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    We should clarify a relatively slow top shutter speed is only a limitation to generating SHALLOW DoF under brighter lighting... In "normal" outdoor light at ISO 100, your max aperture would be approximately f5.6 @ 1/800th. So if you wanted f4 or f2.8, you'd need to mount an ND filter or use a camera with faster shutter speeds or lower ISO...

    I rarely want shallow DoF in landscapes, though I definitely do in a few certain situations. However, I find I like shallow DoF for many street or natural light portrait sessions, and this is where I find the higher shutter speeds beneficial.

    All FWIW,
    Jack,

    That's why i started with "personally" ;-)
    This is what makes us all unique in what and how we photograph, our visual interpretation.
    I have rarely ever encountered a problem when shooting wide open. I have used ND filters to increase my shutter duration when photographing ex: waterfall.

    When i owned my studio, the great majority of my work was environmental portraiture, so for the most part i could control location and time of day which was either early morning or late afternoon near sunset, where you have a beautiful soft quality of light to work with.

    I try to avoid harsh light on my subject but preferred open shade and if the need dictated i would use an off camera Metz to balance my ambient light and adjust my shutter speed to increase or decrease the illumination of the background.

    Again this is my personal opinion relating to what i enjoy photographing.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    I feel like I'm at a tennis match.


    I'm quite pleased at the interactions on this board. Paul is a great guy and it's great to be paired up with him on the court :-).

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: Rhttp://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&pe: H3DII39 or

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Claesson Hasselblad View Post
    There are tremendous benifits of having a system that is completely integrated and Hasselblads competitors are following suite with their first generation DSLR cameras.

    ...

    This is a technical decision rather then a marketing decision. Hasselblad designed their first digital HCD lens to cover the image circle of a 22/39/50mp sensor, the 28mm was announced at Photokina 2006 Hasselblad at the same time we announced our 3rd generation H3D platform 2 years ago.

    Paul Claesson
    Hasselblad USA
    In case I wasn't clear I am fully behind the technical advantages of increased integration (I am a Mac user after all and I love the Phase One body/lenses!). My comment was to say that locking OTHERS out of your system is a marketing decision. Phase has heavily increased their integration in conjunction with Mamiya but we are leaving the system completely open. Any manufacturer can make a back for our Phase One body.

    Adding increased functionality or striving for higher quality by integration does not prohibit openness. There are zero technical reasons why the Hasselblad 28mm lens cannot be used with a Phase One back. There is no reason why the H3 body cannot be used with a Phase One back. These were marketing decisions which bode poorly for the future of Hasselblad's openess.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    We should clarify a relatively slow top shutter speed is only a limitation to generating SHALLOW DoF under brighter lighting... In "normal" outdoor light at ISO 100, your max aperture would be approximately f5.6 @ 1/800th. So if you wanted f4 or f2.8, you'd need to mount an ND filter or use a camera with faster shutter speeds or lower ISO...

    I rarely want shallow DoF in landscapes, though I definitely do in a few certain situations. However, I find I like shallow DoF for many street or natural light portrait sessions, and this is where I find the higher shutter speeds beneficial.

    All FWIW,
    Thanks Jack - I get that, just possibly did not express myself clearly. I too generally want very deeo DOF but there are always times when shallow is good, and as I said much further up the thread, carrying ND is a bore.

    Tim

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post


    I'm quite pleased at the interactions on this board. Paul is a great guy and it's great to be paired up with him on the court :-).

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio
    Actually I have been reading this thread and it is all great to be honest. Each manufacture has there strong points and each there hate to say weak , let's just say limited points and for new folks like Tim this stuff needs to get out of the closet and be talked about. These are some of the very key reasons why some would choose a Hassy and some would choose the Phase or any other brand. I see sometimes way to much chest pumping which frankly a little tired of but not here . These are points one needs to understand and base there decisions on. The end of the day there all good systems and it just really depends on what the needs are. i went focal plane so that was a decision based on my needs , some will chose leaf for the very same reasons based on there needs but all these other details are important and need to be said. Well done from all sides
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post


    I'm quite pleased at the interactions on this board. Paul is a great guy and it's great to be paired up with him on the court :-).

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio
    It is great to be a part of the forum and I always enjoy a lively exchange ;-)

    Paul

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    I too am watching this thread with great interest. I met fine folks at the Mamiya and Hasselblad booths over at PhotoPlus. Both systems (and the Phamiya too) are candidates for me to move up to if my photography allows me.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    What is there to be confused about?

    Hasselblad via CF back range and Sinar both via adaptor plates allows the user to change adaptor plates as much as they choose to change them and as frequently as they choose to change them to fit multiple camera platforms. It takes a few minutes if one is clumsy. thsi delivers enormous potential flexibility and therefore increased utility.

    I didnt 'coin' the term "open or closed" it is a term that has been used to criticise Hasselbald H system for quite a while now. This criticism was very much 'aimed' at Hasselbald as the H body and Leaf lenses was the most heavilly used pro studio system and Hasselblad in effect were seen to be 'cutting out' competing backs. Today- all systems are in fact as closed as each other - except as stated in my original post the CF range of Hasselblad back and their I adaptors and the Sinar range of backs and their adaptors.

    The industry has now moved to a model where every system is essentially 'closed' - because of the need for intergrated workflow - blah blah marketing BS blah..intergrated workflow is software interfacing with hardware to get better corrections.

    If the industry actually sat down and standardised certain hardware interface protocalls - we would all be better off - but then again the marketing scam of so called differentiation would be much harder to pull off.






    Quote Originally Posted by jmvdigital View Post
    PeterA, I'm confused on why sending in the back to have a plate changed or not makes it "open" or "closed." Both need plate changes, one you can do yourself, one you can't. Doesn't mean you can't do it. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but Phase gives you a free platform change with the 3-year VA warranty.

    EDIT: Well, the 3-year gives you "3-Year Free Platform Swap Guarantee" though I'm not 100% clear on what that means. Maybe I mispoke.

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    I too am watching this thread with great interest. I met fine folks at the Mamiya and Hasselblad booths over at PhotoPlus. Both systems (and the Phamiya too) are candidates for me to move up to if my photography allows me.
    Carlos, I have learned one very politically incorrect thing about this: if you buy it, your photography will come.

    No one will agree but in my experience it has almost always been true.
    t

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Oh, I know that based on bitter experience. When I teach my workshop to middle school kids, the first thing I tell them is that having the right tools are very important. A talented person can build a bridge with rocks and sticks, it's just way more difficult. I am looking towards digital medium format to accomplish in one shot what I do currently with 5-7 shots and a lot of post work.

    The trick is having enough business to pay for the silly thing. Still working on that part.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    If Phase and Leaf offered a platform swap at the same cost as that of an adaptor from Sinar and Hasselblad, it would go a long way to increase the perception of flexibility. I say 'perception' because most photographers do not actually change camera systems frequently.

    Kumar

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    What is there to be confused about?

    Hasselblad via CF back range and Sinar both via adaptor plates allows the user to change adaptor plates as much as they choose to change them and as frequently as they choose to change them to fit multiple camera platforms. It takes a few minutes if one is clumsy. thsi delivers enormous potential flexibility and therefore increased utility.

    I didnt 'coin' the term "open or closed" it is a term that has been used to criticise Hasselbald H system for quite a while now. This criticism was very much 'aimed' at Hasselbald as the H body and Leaf lenses was the most heavilly used pro studio system and Hasselblad in effect were seen to be 'cutting out' competing backs. Today- all systems are in fact as closed as each other - except as stated in my original post the CF range of Hasselblad back and their I adaptors and the Sinar range of backs and their adaptors.

    The industry has now moved to a model where every system is essentially 'closed' - because of the need for intergrated workflow - blah blah marketing BS blah..intergrated workflow is software interfacing with hardware to get better corrections.

    If the industry actually sat down and standardised certain hardware interface protocalls - we would all be better off - but then again the marketing scam of so called differentiation would be much harder to pull off.

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    Re: H3DII39 or P45+

    Quote Originally Posted by FromJapan View Post
    If Phase and Leaf offered a platform swap at the same cost as that of an adapter from Sinar and Hasselblad, it would go a long way to increase the perception of flexibility. I say 'perception' because most photographers do not actually change camera systems frequently.

    Kumar
    Phase One offers a free platform swap with the Value Added (and highly recommended) 3-year Warranty. Even less money than an adapter from Sinar .

    And you're right, the vast vast majority of our customers never use this option even though its free. It's more of an insurance policy as future-proofing and a way to protect your investment and resale value.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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