Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 53

Thread: Can't get accurate colour from C1

  1. #1
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Hi,

    Shooting with a Leaf Aptus II-8 on a DF. Copy work. Using C1 to tether to and process. It seems that nothing I can do will give me accurate colour and an accurate curve. I've tried all the profiles and curves, to be honest, not even close to 100% or even 80% accuracy. Our screen is an NEC P221W calibrated with a Spyder 4 Pro. Viewing with daylight bulbs.

    We need accurate colours, we need tonality to be correct. We can't seem to do it.

    I'm assuming the answer is a custom profile?

    Help?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  2. #2
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,928
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Hi,

    Shooting with a Leaf Aptus II-8 on a DF. Copy work. Using C1 to tether to and process. It seems that nothing I can do will give me accurate colour and an accurate curve. I've tried all the profiles and curves, to be honest, not even close to 100% or even 80% accuracy. Our screen is an NEC P221W calibrated with a Spyder 4 Pro. Viewing with daylight bulbs.

    We need accurate colours, we need tonality to be correct. We can't seem to do it.

    Help?
    Is the Xrite Passport unable to be used with your setup? If you can output a DNG file from the camera or C1, you can use it to calibrate against a Macbeth Color Checker and generate a camera profile that Camera Raw and Lightroom can use. I've found it to be very accurate thus far with my cameras, but I'm not familiar with what's possible in a MF digital back system.

  3. #3
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Have you profiled the camera?

    Also, if the viewing lights are D50, then your monitor profile should be D65. I know that sounds crazy, but that will get your environment working right. A D50 monitor is too warm.

  4. #4
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Our screen is profiled to D65.

    How do I make a custom profile? I have the Spyder colour chart, same as macbeth/x-rite or whatever they call themselves Would love a custom profile and also custom curve but no idea how. I assume there are people who offer the service?

    I just tried uncompressing the .mos files and running them in lightroom, even worse. I suppose I could try shooting a colour test chart and using DNG converter build a custom profile but really would like to fix this in C1, the uncompressed raw files are double the size, adobe won't do the uncompressed at all and we're shooting around 1-2tb a month and that's with compressed raw!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  5. #5
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,928
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Our screen is profiled to D65.

    How do I make a custom profile? I have the Spyder colour chart, same as macbeth/x-rite or whatever they call themselves Would love a custom profile and also custom curve but no idea how. I assume there are people who offer the service?
    Check the Xrite website for Passport. They offer both a complete package and complimentary free software only. There are tutorials there.

    Again, I don't know whether they support C1 or your MF digital rig.

  6. #6
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    They don't support C1, I used to have a passport.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  7. #7
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    As Godfrey stated, the Xrite Passport will build a camera profile. I am not sure about the Spyder. Basically, you photography a known color target and the software builds the profile from the image of the target. The profile software should have a way of selecting devices and you can see if a camera is one of them.

    One other thought, I was having a difficult time with my strobes because of a high IR output. Once I put an IR cut filter on my lenses, it cured it. But if you are using hot light, I don't see that a possibility--basically, I had a very bad magenta/red shift that was difficult to correct for.

    Is there a particular color that is a problem?

  8. #8
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    All of them, the tones are all wrong too.

    Just checked on the x-rite site, the passport can only build profiles for programs that use DNG profiles, i.e. adobe.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  9. #9
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Can you use the free adobe DNG converter to make a DNG... then open it in LR and use passport to create a custom profile? Maybe then, LR would be worth using. Just thinkin' out loud here.

  10. #10
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    I tried that actually, for some reason it (Adobe DNG Profile Editor) kept failing on a chart shot with the leaf back even after conversion to dng. Weird.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  11. #11
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Hi Ben, a few points for you:

    1. there is a linear curve in C1 that was made specifically for Leaf backs and for creating custom profiles. You need to SHOOT with it and adjust your lights accordingly since it tends to bring the overall luminance quite a bit.

    2. As a first step I would try the Color Editor in C1, start with either LF3 Product 5 or ProfotoRGB input profile. You can shoot a Macbeth chart (preferably the SG 256 patches one, but the 24 patches one is a good start, just make sure it is in good condition)

    3. The next step would be to use a software such as Profile Maker to generate a new profile for your back and lights

    4. If you'd like to try the DNG route, you can export the files from Capture One or if you're using the Leaf Raw Converter you can keep the files compressed, there is a checkbox for that.

    Hope this helps

    yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  12. #12
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Yair you are a life saver as always. We have been using the Linear curve from the beginning pretty much. As for the profile, I don't want to try and eyeball it, I'm not good enough for that, can I assume you were referring to the now discontinued 'profile maker' from X-Rite? Will that do it for me using the macbeth chart shot that we will do?

    Thanks!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  13. #13
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Yair you are a life saver as always. We have been using the Linear curve from the beginning pretty much. As for the profile, I don't want to try and eyeball it, I'm not good enough for that, can I assume you were referring to the now discontinued 'profile maker' from X-Rite? Will that do it for me using the macbeth chart shot that we will do?

    Thanks!

    Unfortunately, there is no current Xrite product that can produce an ICC Profile-based workflow for Camera Profiling. I've messed around with converting to DNG and creating the profile with the Xrite Passport Colorchecker software. Not successful. I preferred the results from the generic profiles in Capture One/Leaf Capture. We've brought this up with Xrite - we'll see where it goes.

    But if you can come up with an old copy of Profile Maker, that may be a solution.

    Otherwise, I would echo Yair on the choice of Color Space Profiles in Capture One/Leaf Capture (ProPhoto RGB work well). By the way, the use of ProPhoto RGB in this case is not the same as setting ProPhoto RGB as a Color Space via the Export Profile function in Capture One, for instance. In this scenario, it is actually being used as an input profile and works very well (considering it is not a custom profile). You could use ProPhoto RGB as an input profile (via Color Looks in Leaf Capture, Base Characteristics in Capture One), and still utilize Adobe RGB or any other Color Space.

    You may also find that editing in Color Editor and saving as ICC Profile from there may further the results or at least get you a closer starting point for certain recognizable color spectrums that responded well to those efforts.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    First thing is to use two lights crossed over (right head lights left side), then shoot a grey card and check the luminance is consistent across the grey card by looking at the RGB values.

    Take a white balance from a known good grey card and check you have neutral grey across the card. Ensures no colour pollution from the light source or nearby.

    Once you have it you need to shoot your colour chart. If the colour chart is glossy then you may need to deal with reflections.

    Now you must have no profile or linear profile and stick with that. make sure nothing else defaults in c1, if shooting tethered make sure c1 is not applying any settings. Make sure you've reset everything or that c1 will not copy from last.

    Turn off sharpening, moire and noise control

    That's the input step

    C1 now renders the image poorly initially using the output profile, so the data in the raw file must go though an algo, which I believe will be relative colorimetric, but I recall can be perceptual in the preferences. You mustn't use perceptual for colour accurate work.

    Make sure your output is in a wide enough gamut, perhaps adobe, pro photo or bestrgb. Make sure you have 16 bit tiff 100%. Now render to photoshop and see what you've got.

    Download the colour reference numbers from the chart supplier and check them in photoshop.

    Now you have quantitively assessed your colour accuracy.

    -paul

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    212
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    I never understood why C1 doesn't include some sort of profiling function (same goes for ACR I guess). Is it really that hard to program?

  16. #16
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammy645 View Post
    Is it really that hard to program?
    Yes, very hard indeed...

    Profiling for something like a scanner is "relatively" easy since there is one known light source and fewer issues with difference surfaces, difference pigment responses etc.

    With a camera you are dealing with many, many variables and the results can be affected by things like metamerism, polarisation and so on...

    Also some cameras "see" more than what can be represented on screen or on paper, so you have to take care of that part of the equation as well...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  17. #17
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Steve, thank you for that, you've saved me time messing about with the passport. I've tried with Prophoto, still no good. I really do not want to try eyeballing profile corrections in C1, I think it's just a recipe for problems.

    Paul, I had to read it through twice but I see exactly what you are saying, thanks!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    550
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Just to repeat the point about light pollution - check to make sure you aren't getting crossed temperature sources - that will drive you crazy too.

  19. #19
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Just to repeat the point about light pollution - check to make sure you aren't getting crossed temperature sources - that will drive you crazy too.
    LCC can take care of that quite easily
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  20. #20
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    and also will screw up the colour. I have an x-rite chart and I have the RGB values of what they should be, how do I enter those RGB values for each square to build a profile in C1? The color editior is confusing the heck out of me.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Ben now youre this far there's a neat process to follow. Will email you a doc I wrote a few years back for Aperture and will provide a link here later for the same process in ACR. Should be easy to adapt for c1 (might even have a go)

    Paul

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    The biggest colour problems I've seen are discoloured (yellowing) diffusing material and inconsistent flash colours. Shiny colour charts are also a PITA as they may pick up all sorts of things. I've recently upgraded from cheapo Asian stuff to Hensel, one of the main reasons being inconsistent colour between shots from same flash heads!

  23. #23
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    We are using a pair of Profoto D1's if that helps.

    Looking forward to hearing from you Paul!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Check the late Bruce Frasers recipe for hand cranking colour adjustments. Needs to be adapted for c1, following my setup a few posts back.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Ben, I've sent something through to the email on your website.

    I'm still looking into various options to generate the LUT based ICC's that C1 needs. If anyone has time to look into ArgylCMS, RAWTherapee, dcp2icc (I've read both that it does and does not support LUTs), LUTbuddy, I'd be happy to pair up and pool resources.

    There are some commercial apps of course, but I've no recommendation from anyone, nor have I waded through the free stuff yet to see invest the time and money in paid apps.

  26. #26
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Paul you are a gentleman! Much appreciated. I have to look through it carefully.

    Playing with the idea of something like Pictocolor InCamera software as the bosses have just said no to flying Stefan Steib out to sort out a full colour workflow and profile for us until the new studio is built as they won't pay for it to be done twice. They will however pay the $200 for the Picto software if I can persuade them it is worth it.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  27. #27
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    212
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Yes, very hard indeed...

    Profiling for something like a scanner is "relatively" easy since there is one known light source and fewer issues with difference surfaces, difference pigment responses etc.

    With a camera you are dealing with many, many variables and the results can be affected by things like metamerism, polarisation and so on...

    Also some cameras "see" more than what can be represented on screen or on paper, so you have to take care of that part of the equation as well...
    I'm not sure I understand. I'm talking about something like the Adobe DNG profiler, where you take a photo of a color chart and then the program evaluates it and creates a custom profile.

  28. #28
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammy645 View Post
    I'm not sure I understand. I'm talking about something like the Adobe DNG profiler, where you take a photo of a color chart and then the program evaluates it and creates a custom profile.
    That would be an ideal solution if the results were reliably accurate and consistent. Adobe's solution is a bit different and is not suitable for reproduction work even though it does a reasonable job for many other applications.

    There's a lot of math and a lot of theory involved here...the ICC has been trying to standardise a cross-platform, cross-vendor colour management system for many years.
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  29. #29
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    With a camera you are dealing with many, many variables and the results can be affected by things like metamerism, ...
    Matamerism is never a problem because profiling input devices has nothing to do with metamerism. Metamerism is about two different materials looking the same under one light source and different under another. The camera should always be able to record the match/difference. Metamerism does not exist for one thing or object--it is always a comparison. Metamerism is a very misunderstood concept.

  30. #30
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Ben, what do you mean by accurate? You mean if you view the original and the monitor image at the same time you expect a perfect match? That would be impossible.

    The hard part of this is you could post an example, but not an original.

  31. #31
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    212
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    That would be an ideal solution if the results were reliably accurate and consistent. Adobe's solution is a bit different and is not suitable for reproduction work even though it does a reasonable job for many other applications.

    There's a lot of math and a lot of theory involved here...the ICC has been trying to standardise a cross-platform, cross-vendor colour management system for many years.
    Well, any solution is better than no solution. I've used several different techniques to make custom profiles over the years, ranging from external programs and photoshop scripts to just eyeballing it, while results varied they were all better than just using the canned profiles. I definitely think it's something Phase One should be looking into as it would be a huge asset to C1 IMHO.

  32. #32
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,275
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Matamerism is never a problem because profiling input devices has nothing to do with metamerism. Metamerism is about two different materials looking the same under one light source and different under another. The camera should always be able to record the match/difference. Metamerism does not exist for one thing or object--it is always a comparison. Metamerism is a very misunderstood concept.
    If your client is viewing the work of art in gallery lighting and you are shooting it with strobes and the pigments/dies/material of the art exhibits metamerism (when comparing those two light sources) then, by the perception of the client (the one paying/approving the job) a "correct" profile made purely based on a calibration under strobe will be wrong. You will have correctly calibrated to a widely accepted standard but you'll still be "wrong".

    Moreover you may even wish to consider what light the artist created the work in, and under what kind of lighting they intended it to be viewed. Perhaps both strobe and gallery lighting are wrong.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  33. #33
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    If your client is viewing the work of art in gallery lighting and you are shooting it with strobes and the pigments/dies/material of the art exhibits metamerism (when comparing those two light sources) then, by the perception of the client (the one paying/approving the job) a "correct" profile made purely based on a calibration under strobe will be wrong. You will have correctly calibrated to a widely accepted standard but you'll still be "wrong".

    Moreover you may even wish to consider what light the artist created the work in, and under what kind of lighting they intended it to be viewed. Perhaps both strobe and gallery lighting are wrong.
    So Doug, are you simply trying to prove that metamerism is a misunderstood concept. LOL.

    Everything looks different under different lighting--and that is not metamerism. If you made two prints from a Epson and HP printer and they looked identical under tungsten light and then you took the same two prints and put them under daylight and the prints looked different, then the pigments are not metamers. However, neither print is "wrong," just different--unless you have really bad pigments.

    Metamerism requires a comparison of TWO or more thing under different light sources where the spectral response causes two materials that appear to match under one source will not match under another--unless they are me tamers and then they will match. A sample of one has nothing to do with metamerism.

  34. #34
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,275
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    So Doug, are you simply trying to prove that metamerism is a misunderstood concept. LOL.

    Everything looks different under different lighting--and that is not metamerism. If you made two prints from a Epson and HP printer and they looked identical under tungsten light and then you took the same two prints and put them under daylight and the prints looked different, then the pigments are not metamers. However, neither print is "wrong," just different--unless you have really bad pigments.

    Metamerism requires a comparison of TWO or more thing under different light sources where the spectral response causes two materials that appear to match under one source will not match under another--unless they are me tamers and then they will match. A sample of one has nothing to do with metamerism.
    Unless you're shooting paint samples then a single piece of artwork can contain more than a sample of one. More than one kind of paint/substrate/material.

    Imagine a painting of a red kite next to a red house. The kite and house could appear to be an identical color of red under one type of lighting, but different when viewed under another light source.

    In output (e.g. your Epson vs. HP example) you're usually using one set of inks. In input, especially in the Cultural Heritage market things are not always as straight forward.

    Mixed media, various modern art, as well as pieces which were worked on over a long period of time (wherein the artist may have changed their tools during the creation of the artwork), or started by one artist and finished by another can all exhibit such issues.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 26th July 2012 at 22:58.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  35. #35
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    But metamerism comes basically down to one thing--one color, two materials, and different light sources. And my point was, this is not a color profile issue. The camera profile cannot and should not correct for this.

    But Ben is not having this problem.

  36. #36
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    But I am now wondering if Ben is viewing the originals under the same light as he is shooting with. If he is shooting with strobes and viewing with daylight tungsten, he will not get a match between the original and image.

    Or maybe the problem is with expectations. There can never be a perfect match. The image should look like the original, but it is not a copy of the original. Glowing monitors cannot look like ink on paper.

  37. #37
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Not quite that stupid, as mentioned in the original post, using daylight balanced bulbs for viewing the originals. We don't expect 100% but better than 70% would be nice. At present blacks are grey, pages are muddy dull colours, coloured ink is nothing like the originals in colour.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  38. #38
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    FWIW, I have been unable to PRINT from C1 and get anything remotely color matched. If I export a TIFF and print from Lightroom, Photoshop, or Aperture, then all is well. If I print a test jpeg from C1, it looks good as well.. What has not worked at all is printing directly from a RAW file within C1. (This is on a Mac Pro with OS 10.7.4, and C1 6.x)

    I'm not the only one, as I've seen this mentioned on the C1 fora, but haven't checked recently to see if it has been fixed. Ill try again when C1 7 comes out.

    --Matt

  39. #39
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Sorry, I was not implying you are stupid. I am thinking about a solution and rather handicapped by not seeing anything. Sometimes we can overlook an obvious factor.

    I have shot books for an exhibition catalog. Books don't have a black and the pages are dull--they are low-contrst targets. When you pump the contrast, the colors are hard to control and you see unwanted color in the paper. The problem does not come down to simple color management and profiling.

    After I had finished this, I came across the LAB color space. I am wondering if that would be a better way to control the reproduction as the color and contrast are separate. You can increase the contrast while desaturating the color. LAB seems a difficult space to work in, but once you figure out a few basics, it is really not that hard, like if the A or B color curve intersects the center, there is no color shifts. The slope of the curve changes saturation and the movement of the curve impacts hue. The lightness curve is all about contrast.

  40. #40
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Hi Ben,
    I'm using an AFi-ii 12 (aptus 12) for art repro work. Typically I light the work with profoto strobes using a cross polarizing technique. I've been scratching my head wondering how you could be so far off on color because with my experience the files have been really very close using the LF3 Product 5 or Profoto RGB profiles. I may make minor color adjustments or I may not depending on the job but only minor adjustments seem to be needed. I may use the linear curve setting and make my own curve however. On a few occasions I have also brought along my hasselblad CF 528 to shoot some work side by side. There are some very minor color differences between the respective backs using their stock color profiles but nothing most people would notice. I'm wondering if there isn't something else going on in your case that could be messing with color such as the OS applying a 2nd profile or something?
    Eric

  41. #41
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    FWIW, I have been unable to PRINT from C1 and get anything remotely color matched. If I export a TIFF and print from Lightroom, Photoshop, or Aperture, then all is well. If I print a test jpeg from C1, it looks good as well.. What has not worked at all is printing directly from a RAW file within C1. (This is on a Mac Pro with OS 10.7.4, and C1 6.x)

    I'm not the only one, as I've seen this mentioned on the C1 fora, but haven't checked recently to see if it has been fixed. Ill try again when C1 7 comes out.

    --Matt
    You should check that your print settings are consistent acroos these apps Matt
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    I am not sure why shooting reproductions is that difficult with C1? This is done with a P25+ back, Linhof View Camera, cheap Norman strobes with soft boxes, and no polarization, although the lens has an IR cut filter. This is a 100% crop. Your results are worse?

  43. #43
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    You should check that your print settings are consistent acroos these apps Matt
    Yair,

    While it is always possible to get these things wrong no matter how experienced, I was extremely careful going down the printer settlings checklist. It also works perfectly printing an imported jpeg with the same printer settings. (Indistinguishable from the LR4 or Aperture output). The problem doesn't resemble double profiling - it's more of a slight cyan cast and lack of contrast. I'll try letting the printer manage colors next time, but I never do that with other programs.

    It's not more than a minor annoyance, as I don't use C1 for file management, so all final versions for print are exported to Aperture or Lightroom anyway.

    Best,

    Matt

  44. #44
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Matt would you mind submitting a support case for this? It'll help us investigate this issue and see if this is a bug or something else...we'll need to know what OS you're running, what printer, your C1 colour settings etc.

    Contact Support

    Thanks!
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  45. #45
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Yair,

    I'm traveling now, but will do when I get back home.

    --Matt

  46. #46
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I am not sure why shooting reproductions is that difficult with C1? This is done with a P25+ back, Linhof View Camera, cheap Norman strobes with soft boxes, and no polarization, although the lens has an IR cut filter. This is a 100% crop. Your results are worse?
    Unless I see the original I don't know how I could comment?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  47. #47
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Sorry, I was not implying you are stupid. I am thinking about a solution and rather handicapped by not seeing anything. Sometimes we can overlook an obvious factor.

    I have shot books for an exhibition catalog. Books don't have a black and the pages are dull--they are low-contrst targets. When you pump the contrast, the colors are hard to control and you see unwanted color in the paper. The problem does not come down to simple color management and profiling.

    After I had finished this, I came across the LAB color space. I am wondering if that would be a better way to control the reproduction as the color and contrast are separate. You can increase the contrast while desaturating the color. LAB seems a difficult space to work in, but once you figure out a few basics, it is really not that hard, like if the A or B color curve intersects the center, there is no color shifts. The slope of the curve changes saturation and the movement of the curve impacts hue. The lightness curve is all about contrast.
    I meant I would have been stupid to have missed something so obvious.

    LAB sounds nice but we are shooting around 25,000 files every 3 months or so. We need a WYSIWYG solution, straight from camera to finished file via a white balance change or so. We do not begin to have the time to deal with individual files.

    I am assured by Stefan Steib, the colour expert for the BSB in Munich that not only is it possible using custom profiles but as a consultant he has travelled the world setting it up for repro studios to achieve close to true colour accuracy. This is the kind of thing we need and we are indeed considering bringing him over at some point to set everything up, not only for our past work but for the future too.

    The great thing about hiring an expert to do this is that a) it's no longer on my head b) I have someone to blame and fix things if it doesn't work! rather than me taking the rap
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  48. #48
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    When I get into work tomorrow and if I have the time I will post a sample page from the book that brought home to us just how bad the problem was to show what we are dealing with?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  49. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Ben, I don't want to run people's s/ware into the ground, especially online (i know you had some idea to select a package). I think given the volumes you're talking about it would be worth engaging someone experienced.

    There's no magic bullet and as easy as people think it may be, it is really tough to reproduce near true colour. Adobe/xrite solution via colour passport only seems to work because Nikon/canon profiles are so bad to start with. But a good profile is only a start point. You'll need to get yourself into a situation where it is a repeatable process, and that is what you should expect for any $ spent.

    I hope your decisions work out
    Paul

  50. #50
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Can't get accurate colour from C1

    Thanks Paul, it's the route I've advised the bosses to take, they're waiting for us to move to the permanent studio so they don't have to pay twice.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •