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Thread: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

  1. #51
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Sony announces image sensor technology with PDAF pixels on the image sensor. Possibly part of a two step process with fast PDAF before fast accurate CDAF microfocus, both on the image sensor. JUST DO IT HASSELBLAD !

  2. #52
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    I know of no Sony sensor perform as well as Dalsa, read colors and image quality.
    Anders,

    How are you defining sensor image quality? Remember, you can't take lens rendering into account here. How much of your high rating of your Dalsa-sensored cameras is down to those lovely Rollei Schneider & Zeiss lenses? And how much is down to the sheer size advantage of MF Dalsa sensors over existing Sony DSLR sensors? So let's be fair, and put those factors to one side. Perhaps you could imagine that your MF back's Dalsa CCD was replaced by a Sony CMOS sensor of equal size and pixel pitch [that's the rumour we are discussing, after all: a MF-sized Sony CMOS sensor], and you shot it on your Hy6 with the same lenses. Just to ensure that the playing field is level and that we really are just focusing on which sensor brand/technology inherently performs better.

    The things that you can now compare are:

    - Signal to noise per pixel in a given exposure. Sony wins - it will be close in the highlights, but Sony has it in the shadows.

    - Dynamic range. Sony wins.

    - Readout noise, and associated High ISO performance. Sony wins.

    - Dark noise at a given temperature, and associated Long Exposure performance. Sony wins, by miles.

    - Colour. Dalsa wins - BUT - unlike all the other parameters we're comparing, this one is not really related to the electronic design. It's primarily down to the choices of optical filtration in front of the sensor; there is a secondary contribution from the silicon (photon absorption depth etc.). Sony could design filtration to take all this into account and reproduce the Dalsa's net spectral response, and get essentially the same colour result. But Dalsa can't copy Sony's electronics (...not unless they too switch to CMOS).

    So inherently, at the unit-area level, the advantages for Dalsa CCDs, or Kodak CCDs for that matter, are not there. If the rumour is true and an someone like Sony starts to produce CMOS matching the area of MF CCDs, it will be the first real MF game-changer in 10 years.

    Ray

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Has anybody ever compared 1:1 DR between the latest Sony sensors vs. Dalsa ? Everybody just refers to the fantastic DxO-results...

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Anders,

    How are you defining sensor image quality? Remember, you can't take lens rendering into account here. How much of your high rating of your Dalsa-sensored cameras is down to those lovely Rollei Schneider & Zeiss lenses? And how much is down to the sheer size advantage of MF Dalsa sensors over existing Sony DSLR sensors? So let's be fair, and put those factors to one side. Perhaps you could imagine that your MF back's Dalsa CCD was replaced by a Sony CMOS sensor of equal size and pixel pitch [that's the rumour we are discussing, after all: a MF-sized Sony CMOS sensor], and you shot it on your Hy6 with the same lenses. Just to ensure that the playing field is level and that we really are just focusing on which sensor brand/technology inherently performs better.

    The things that you can now compare are:

    - Signal to noise per pixel in a given exposure. Sony wins - it will be close in the highlights, but Sony has it in the shadows.

    - Dynamic range. Sony wins.

    - Readout noise, and associated High ISO performance. Sony wins.

    - Dark noise at a given temperature, and associated Long Exposure performance. Sony wins, by miles.

    - Colour. Dalsa wins - BUT - unlike all the other parameters we're comparing, this one is not really related to the electronic design. It's primarily down to the choices of optical filtration in front of the sensor; there is a secondary contribution from the silicon (photon absorption depth etc.). Sony could design filtration to take all this into account and reproduce the Dalsa's net spectral response, and get essentially the same colour result. But Dalsa can't copy Sony's electronics (...not unless they too switch to CMOS).

    So inherently, at the unit-area level, the advantages for Dalsa CCDs, or Kodak CCDs for that matter, are not there. If the rumour is true and an someone like Sony starts to produce CMOS matching the area of MF CCDs, it will be the first real MF game-changer in 10 years.

    Ray
    The Dalsa sensor exists ... the Sony sensor is rumored ... so it doesn't exist. Sony loses all of the above points.

    I have no doubt that MFD will go CMOS, either sooner or later. Then it will probably be a drawn out process of getting right, then more time to zero in the processing, and then we'll see if the IQ is as good ... given the use associated with MFD as opposed to 35mm DSLRs.

    Currently, I have not used a CMOS based anything that delivers the over-all color of the Dalsa sensored backs I've owned (Aptus 75s and H4D/60). That includes a Sony A900 using adapted Zeiss V lenses with the same V lenses on the Mamiya/Aptus 75s kit. A900 old technology? So was the Aptus 75s.

    So who cares what the whole imaging train may be ? ... it is the net result that anyone cares about. If CMOS can deliver as good or better, I'm all for it. I'm also skeptical.

    -Marc
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    Has anybody ever compared 1:1 DR between the latest Sony sensors vs. Dalsa ? Everybody just refers to the fantastic DxO-results...
    There are more and more comparisons out in the internet of the D800 to MFD. DxO is one of them. Hard to argue with numbers. Most test are just pretty pictures that really don't quantify the results, so would not actually test whether DxO results are true or not.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Is there any link? I saw some comparisons of resolution but not DR.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    I've run raw files of stouffer transmission step wedges taken with an aptus 12 and a D800 through imatest and the Aptus 12 was 12.5 stops and the d800 was 12 stops. Imatest provides a set of numbers for DR at different noise criteria which are more important to photographers but I can't recall these off the top of my head.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    I think with adapting the very same lenses, quite decent DR-comparisons could be made in the real world (simply by choosing a contrasty setup), but for absolute measurements it takes a test setup that isn't affected by stray light:
    ARRI Group: Dynamic Range Test Charts

    Many cameras that were claimed to have extreme DR beyond 12 stops have been proved to be affected by stray light (which becomes a more serious issue with the contrasty setups to test high DR) - with the exception of the ALExa which has a special sensor technology not used by other cameras (dual-gain output to combine two 14bit signals to one true 16bit signal).

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    Has anybody ever compared 1:1 DR between the latest Sony sensors vs. Dalsa ? Everybody just refers to the fantastic DxO-results...
    I have tested the D800 vs my IQ180. I haven't done a full test, but I can say that in dark scenes (exposure around 1/2s) the D800 kills the IQ180 when it comes to DR. I can open up more shadows and they are much cleaner. My IQ180 shows slight banding after pushing 2/3 stops, but the D800 stays clean and only shows little noise. (lowest base ISO on both cameras)

    Why haven't I posted anything ? Well, I want to do more testing first and would even like to get my hands on a second IQ and D800, just to check whether these tests were correct.

    Color wise and such I prefer much the IQ, but DR wise the D800 is the best camera I have seen so far.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    I do hope senior management in Hasselblad would read this post.

    Both Hasselblad, and Leica are legendary cameras manufacturers. In so many years, they produce so many fine cameras and lens, they are not just a piece photo gear, they are piece of gem to many owners. Many of such legendary cameras vanished in the digital era. But some survive and continue to be leading camera gear manufacturer, like Leica. It is because they value their customers, and protect their investments.

    For many photographers, a lens not just a gear, they have taken many good pictures with it, and it is part of their memory. They do not want them to be left alone. I saw people use their “antique” lens on their Leica M9, or M8. Hasselblad have many fine lenses, and what I saw is people are using it on Nikon, Pentax, or Mamiya, and they are not use it with Hasselblad. I have a 203FE, I was so affair to use it as I worry that I cannot get replacement if they have any problem.

    Hasselblad was once on the hand of some greedy businessman, when they migrate to digital system, they change everything, and make their customer to re-invest whatever they own. I bought a CFV39 which is cost me a fortune. But, something I do want to take picture with modern camera like H, and sorry, I have to buy another system. It is impossible for me, but even if you are rich, how can you carry so many gear with you in a trip.You don't win customer's royalty with such skinning strategy.
    I hope Hasselblad new owner could bring some changes, I hope they would manufacture a new model of H, say "H4v" that allow use to use both H and V lens with minimum conversion (the existing converter is clumsy and not acceptable.) and also V back.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    CFV 50 with a rotating sensor. It would ignite Jupiter!
    Eduardo


    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyngai View Post
    I do hope senior management in Hasselblad would read this post.

    Both Hasselblad, and Leica are legendary cameras manufacturers. In so many years, they produce so many fine cameras and lens, they are not just a piece photo gear, they are piece of gem to many owners. Many of such legendary cameras vanished in the digital era. But some survive and continue to be leading camera gear manufacturer, like Leica. It is because they value their customers, and protect their investments.

    For many photographers, a lens not just a gear, they have taken many good pictures with it, and it is part of their memory. They do not want them to be left alone. I saw people use their “antique” lens on their Leica M9, or M8. Hasselblad have many fine lenses, and what I saw is people are using it on Nikon, Pentax, or Mamiya, and they are not use it with Hasselblad. I have a 203FE, I was so affair to use it as I worry that I cannot get replacement if they have any problem.

    Hasselblad was once on the hand of some greedy businessman, when they migrate to digital system, they change everything, and make their customer to re-invest whatever they own. I bought a CFV39 which is cost me a fortune. But, something I do want to take picture with modern camera like H, and sorry, I have to buy another system. It is impossible for me, but even if you are rich, how can you carry so many gear with you in a trip.You don't win customer's royalty with such skinning strategy.
    I hope Hasselblad new owner could bring some changes, I hope they would manufacture a new model of H, say "H4v" that allow use to use both H and V lens with minimum conversion (the existing converter is clumsy and not acceptable.) and also V back.

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I have tested the D800 vs my IQ180. I haven't done a full test, but I can say that in dark scenes (exposure around 1/2s) the D800 kills the IQ180 when it comes to DR. I can open up more shadows and they are much cleaner. My IQ180 shows slight banding after pushing 2/3 stops, but the D800 stays clean and only shows little noise. (lowest base ISO on both cameras)

    Why haven't I posted anything ? Well, I want to do more testing first and would even like to get my hands on a second IQ and D800, just to check whether these tests were correct.

    Color wise and such I prefer much the IQ, but DR wise the D800 is the best camera I have seen so far.
    Yes you can lift the shadows very well with the d800 and your comment about the color is something I noticed as well. But regarding DR, take a look next time you have a chance to compare for darkest detail. I found that while you could lift the shadows much more cleanly with the d800 the darkest detail was still recorded by the Aptus 80. Kind of weird but that's what I saw, more real shadow detail, but just not able to push it way up without noise. D800 could push up but at the darkest its just flat black getting flat grey.
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyngai View Post
    I do hope senior management in Hasselblad would read this post.

    Both Hasselblad, and Leica are legendary cameras manufacturers. In so many years, they produce so many fine cameras and lens, they are not just a piece photo gear, they are piece of gem to many owners. Many of such legendary cameras vanished in the digital era. But some survive and continue to be leading camera gear manufacturer, like Leica. It is because they value their customers, and protect their investments.

    For many photographers, a lens not just a gear, they have taken many good pictures with it, and it is part of their memory. They do not want them to be left alone. I saw people use their “antique” lens on their Leica M9, or M8. Hasselblad have many fine lenses, and what I saw is people are using it on Nikon, Pentax, or Mamiya, and they are not use it with Hasselblad. I have a 203FE, I was so affair to use it as I worry that I cannot get replacement if they have any problem.

    Hasselblad was once on the hand of some greedy businessman, when they migrate to digital system, they change everything, and make their customer to re-invest whatever they own. I bought a CFV39 which is cost me a fortune. But, something I do want to take picture with modern camera like H, and sorry, I have to buy another system. It is impossible for me, but even if you are rich, how can you carry so many gear with you in a trip.You don't win customer's royalty with such skinning strategy.
    I hope Hasselblad new owner could bring some changes, I hope they would manufacture a new model of H, say "H4v" that allow use to use both H and V lens with minimum conversion (the existing converter is clumsy and not acceptable.) and also V back.
    Nice post.

    For years now I have wished and hoped for Hasselblad to engineer one change to the H system ... make it a dual shutter camera ... which would have opened up new possibilities for both their own H series lenses, as well as use of most all the CF/CFi/CFE and F/FE V lenses in focal plane (F) mode via a simple V to H adapter.

    The Phase One camera can also use some Schneider Leaf shutter lenses and can use many MF focal plane shutter lenses including the Zeiss V series. The Leica S2 is also a dual shutter camera, can use the V lenses, and as of recent can also use the H series lenses either in Leaf shutter or focal plane mode by using the H to S electronic adapter.

    However, the problem with using all the legacy Zeiss V leaf shutter lenses on LS Mode is that they are mechanical in an electronic age. There is no way to cock the leaf shutter except with a mechanical device like the CF Adapter.

    In each case, when using a mechanical legacy lens like the CF/CFi/CFE in F mode, or the F/FE, these Zeiss lenses are "dumb" on any focal plane camera you mount it to ... requiring stop-down metering and shooting. This is fine for some, but is not fine with many others ... thus reducing the appeal as each camera maker improves their own fully functional series of lenses. It is difficult for small niche camera companies to engineer limited appeal devices in a category that is already of limited appeal.

    The most you could hope for is either a dual shutter H camera, or a new Hasselblad camera that eliminates the shutter altogether and uses electronic activation of the sensor capture, or something like that.

    Maybe this new Hasselblad camera will fulfill your dreams Or not

    -Marc

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    I have one for you, what if Phase One did the same? They already have the body to do that with their industrial camera body, already have the back to do that with the IQ series Live View, just need the integration of the EVF and that would get me pretty excited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Biggs View Post
    Here is an interesting idea: what if Hasselblad retrofitted their existing H series camera without a mirror, a CMOS chip and some sort of EVF viewfinder that replaced the current prism?

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    What if the Hasselblad announcement is 100% made by Fuji and only branded as a Hasselblad product? What about something like a 16x19 version of the Fuji X-1 Pro? Just kicking around ideas here.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    CFV 50 with a rotating sensor. It would ignite Jupiter!
    You mean a high res digital back that fits directly on any 500 series, has an internally rotating sensor, allows you to enter metadata for the lens into the raw file, allows color cast and vignette correction to be loaded directly into the back, allows accurate (if somewhat slow) 100% views of focus/detail, produces raw files that can be read in LightRoom, preferably with a sensor known for it's great rendition of skin tones and tonal gradations? Preferably made by a company that has shown a continuing and real interest in making backs/innovations for the V platform well into the future?

    We have that; it's called a Mamiya Leaf Aptus II 10R or 12R. We even have one in pre-owned inventory.

    It's a great back. But, to my knowledge, Jupitor is not on fire.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    We have that; it's called a Mamiya Leaf Aptus II 10R or 12R. We even have one in pre-owned inventory.

    It's a great back. But, to my knowledge, Jupitor is not on fire.
    There is a big price difference though: $17K (CFV50) versus $26K/$32K (Leaf).

    And Leaf decided to drop the unique rotating sensor solution so at present the assumption is that it will not be available in the Credo and any other future models.

    Also the Leaf Aptus II does require a cable if I recall correctly.

    Let me just add that neither of them is full frame which would even be nicer

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    @ Andy

    What is your fixation with Fuji? If Hasselblad comes out with a rebadged Fuji they would lose all their credibility not to mention a mass of customers. Yes, yes I know about XPan, but really, is that all you can think about. And I can tell you that if they happen to do what you say, they will lose me as a customer.

    @ Doug

    No that is not what he meant. He was specifically talking about Hasselbald. Spare us the sales pitch.

    Greg

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Greg, it's not a fixation. It's a reality. Fuji is Hasselblad's largest partner, so naturally we look to them for many of the solutions that Hasselblad could introduce.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by BANKER1 View Post
    @ Andy

    What is your fixation with Fuji? If Hasselblad comes out with a rebadged Fuji they would lose all their credibility not to mention a mass of customers.
    You mean like the entire H series (or at the very least the H1 and H lenses)?

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Most people know that Hasselblad designs every one of their lenses and Fuji produces them. Where do you think Schneider and Rodenstock lenses are produced? As for the H camera, I am very happy with it and all its features. Maybe Phase One would be well served to find a partner to make a camera to their specifications. Their camera has been "forthcoming" for years. And most of us know where the most important part of the Hasselblad system, the digital back, is produced.

    My hope has always been to embrace the good qualities of all the systems from which we have to choose. But, I guess, there will always be the naysayers to show us how important that is.

    Greg

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    You mean a high res digital back that fits directly on any 500 series, has an internally rotating sensor, allows you to enter metadata for the lens into the raw file, allows color cast and vignette correction to be loaded directly into the back, allows accurate (if somewhat slow) 100% views of focus/detail, produces raw files that can be read in LightRoom, preferably with a sensor known for it's great rendition of skin tones and tonal gradations? Preferably made by a company that has shown a continuing and real interest in making backs/innovations for the V platform well into the future?

    We have that; it's called a Mamiya Leaf Aptus II 10R or 12R. We even have one in pre-owned inventory.

    It's a great back. But, to my knowledge, Jupitor is not on fire.
    Oh no It is still called Leaf Aptus-II 10R and 12R still, is it not??? Dont let them change the name to include Mamiya

    And about the camera... Early last year I thought I was going with a V, but was introduced to the Hy6. It blew me away, fits what should been a modern V; modern, AF, balanced, lenses arguably better... and with the AFi-II 10 and 12, rotating sensor, tilt display, modern design.

    Credo? Why? Already very happy with AFi, have an iPhone, why give up $$ for no rotating sensor and no tilt display? The awesome is that Hy6 is one of best cameras I have used and fits as extension of my brain in visualizing and making images.

    Sort of wish Rollei and Hassy would merge... Wishful... Quality made in Europe

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    It's not made by Hasselblad. It needs a tangling cable to work and it looks "frankensteinish" on a V. BTW, how much are the pre-owned 10r or 12r? Those are my other dream backs besides the P45+.
    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    You mean a high res digital back that fits directly on any 500 series, has an internally rotating sensor, allows you to enter metadata for the lens into the raw file, allows color cast and vignette correction to be loaded directly into the back, allows accurate (if somewhat slow) 100% views of focus/detail, produces raw files that can be read in LightRoom, preferably with a sensor known for it's great rendition of skin tones and tonal gradations? Preferably made by a company that has shown a continuing and real interest in making backs/innovations for the V platform well into the future?

    We have that; it's called a Mamiya Leaf Aptus II 10R or 12R. We even have one in pre-owned inventory.

    It's a great back. But, to my knowledge, Jupitor is not on fire.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Most people know that Hasselblad designs every one of their lenses and Fuji produces them
    The issue here is the definition of "design" - Hasselblad gave the "requirements specifications": focal length, speed, size, price, usable for the central shutter (which is not made by Fuji) and certain quality requirements. Then Fuji designs and manufactures the lenses. Designing the optical elements requires very specific know-how, many companies even use proprietary software for optical design.
    For the SK-lenses for Phase One made by Mamiya and the Zeiss-lenses made by Cosina the opposite is true: the optical design is made by the company which also offers the brand name but according to the limitations of the manufacturer and is then off-shored for production. The reason? Make it to the price and quality of cheaper products but give it the image of a brand which promises higher quality standards - a risky game. IMHO, it doesn't make sense, I doubt that a Mamiya-lens is necessarily worse than a SK-design made by Mamiya.
    As far as I know, Rodenstock doesn't play this game.

    Zeiss shows the difference quite clearly, their advanced designs (incorporating special technologies) are not given to Cosina or other manufacturers. Lenses like the 40IF or the Superachromats can not be manufactured by others.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Biggs View Post
    What if the Hasselblad announcement is 100% made by Fuji and only branded as a Hasselblad product? What about something like a 16x19 version of the Fuji X-1 Pro? Just kicking around ideas here.
    Do you mean like the Hasselblad XPan was? Who cares? Everyone knew the Xpan was a Hassey commissioned camera and Fuji made it and the lenses, but those that embraced the camera LOVED it, and wishes it would be reincarnated in a digital version.

    I would assume that Hasselblad exercises some standards control just like Carl Zeiss did with the Contax optics made in Japan ... some of the initial Zeiss Contax N lenses were delayed because Zeiss rejected the first production runs.

    -Marc

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    The issue here is the definition of "design" - Hasselblad gave the "requirements specifications": focal length, speed, size, price, usable for the central shutter (which is not made by Fuji) and certain quality requirements. Then Fuji designs and manufactures the lenses. Designing the optical elements requires very specific know-how, many companies even use proprietary software for optical design.
    For the SK-lenses for Phase One made by Mamiya and the Zeiss-lenses made by Cosina the opposite is true: the optical design is made by the company which also offers the brand name but according to the limitations of the manufacturer and is then off-shored for production. The reason? Make it to the price and quality of cheaper products but give it the image of a brand which promises higher quality standards - a risky game. IMHO, it doesn't make sense, I doubt that a Mamiya-lens is necessarily worse than a SK-design made by Mamiya.
    As far as I know, Rodenstock doesn't play this game.

    Zeiss shows the difference quite clearly, their advanced designs (incorporating special technologies) are not given to Cosina or other manufacturers. Lenses like the 40IF or the Superachromats can not be manufactured by others.
    Seems we're mincing words here ... I seriously doubt some Hasselblad engineer is jotting down specifications on a bar napkin and faxing it to Fuji To even ask for certain specifications requires some optical knowledge, and cross pollination to fit with-in reality.

    Hasselblad also has to have major input as to what their cameras can do, and what is possible in the digital realm with software ... a concept widely poo-pooed initially, then adopted by almost everyone including Leica for their S lenses . Given the choice of a $10,000 lenses that is a little better than others, and a $5,000 one that requires a one button click on free software to equal the expensive one ... well ...

    I'd agree that the off-shore game would be risky if it were not for the decade long proven track record of the Hasselblad/Fuji partnership ... and the continued collaboration that has brought Hassey users the more advanced designs of the new HC50-II, 150N and 120-II not to mention the highly rated HCD-35-90.

    Hasselblad puts their name on the camera, back and lenses because it is their product and their responsibility, not Fuji's ... which is like a car maker who doesn't put some major suppliers name on their cars either ... otherwise, the Audi Quattro would have been named "American Axel"

    As too the Zeiss examples, yes they are stellar and not affordable to a vast masjority of the world's photographers ... and they aren't AF ... and as far as the 40IF, it was lots better, but not perfect with distortion requiring ... software corrections

    -Marc

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    As Marc said two posts ago, "Who cares."

    It seems some Hassy fans care about the words people use about their cameras. People who have some gripe about Hasselblad bring up Fuji, and its defenders often seem to bite. Who cares who makes the parts so long as they're made well and work as they should? It's not like Fuji is some fly by night operation.
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    I agree. I certainly don't care. Just trying to back into what could be announced, based on what we know and who the relationships are. I didn't know the whole Fuji thing was such a sensitive topic, otherwise I would have stayed away from making predictions of my own.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Fuji on one hand and the word Mamiya seem to be sensitive areas and for the life of me I can't figure out why when they are both great companies that produce great stuff. Sure they may have had some dogs along the way but this is now and everything is done by computers and high end engineers that know what they are doing. I don't discount anyone because of there name. Most of these companies have been merged, bought and sold a hundred times by now. It's what they produce what counts.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Seems we're mincing words here ... I seriously doubt some Hasselblad engineer is jotting down specifications on a bar napkin and faxing it to Fuji To even ask for certain specifications requires some optical knowledge, and cross pollination to fit with-in reality.
    It propably happened like this - maybe some meetings defining basic possibilities, what's possible and what's not. But Hasselblad sending over optical designs to Fuji? I know that people got used to sloppy definitions of "made in" or "designed by" - a brand or just QC doesn't define quality, engineers and skillled craftsmen do. Many business-people, managers and controllers have absolutely no problem to re-brand sub-standard products or suppliers even when ruining the brand itself in the long-run.

    Hasselblad set the quality standard in medium format for decades and then they fired the majority of workers responsible for this quality standard to fulfill the wishes of Shriro... Yes, that makes me angry. Also killing off the Hy6...
    They were selling cameras (propably even more than before) but avoided major investments into their Gothenburg-based production by off-shoring most of the work to Fuji. And the mechanics are a noticeable downgrade to the "real" Hasselblads.

    Zeiss wasn't strongly affected by losing Hasselblad as a customer but nevertheless, interesting design upgrades and new technologies never became available for professional photographers, they brought the cinematography-lenses to an entirely new standard within the last decade, but in 2012, most medium format-lenses are still at the technical level of the 1970s...
    As an engineer and keeping people in mind who spend 30k$ on a MFDB, it just makes me sad that superior technology and quality standards are abandoned in favour of shareholder-value...

    When there will be a EVIL-Hasselblad, it better be good :-) Newly developed Zeiss-lenses would be a major selling point compared to Phase One or Nikon... And a full-metal body resembling the chrome-plated aluiminium-bodies of the 200/500-series would be interesting as well.
    Last edited by georgl; 29th August 2012 at 09:50.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Hi All,

    That's my first post here, so, I'll briefly introduce myself for start I'm an amateur photographer, shooting MF and LF for quite a while and together with film photography have some experience shooting MFDB - starting, from Imacon V96C, Leaf Aptus 65 and currently a proud owner of H4D-50

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    The issue here is the definition of "design" - Hasselblad gave the "requirements specifications": focal length, speed, size, price, usable for the central shutter (which is not made by Fuji) and certain quality requirements. Then Fuji designs and manufactures the lenses.
    That is not design - that is specification. Here is Hasselblad definition of design:
    While previously Carl Zeiss engineered everything including the shutter, lens design today is a collaborative effort between Hasselblad and Fujinon, with Hasselblad gradually assuming a larger role. For example, work on the latest addition to the HC lens portfolio, the HCD 4/28, started out in Gothenburg, Sweden. Using powerful software for optical design, the characteristics of the new lens could be explored in great detail well before any glass was ground. Fujinon in Saitama City, Japan, then took up the task of refining the lens design and building a prototype series that was put through its paces at Fujinon’s and Hasselblad’s lab.
    Source: http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1..._of_lenses.pdf
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Thank you Mike. Often, posters to this site like to torc us up by constantly referring to Fuji as if they designed, manufactured, marketed, etc., etc. You and I understand specifications and design. As a very long time owner of Hasselblad equipment, I understand the quality and build of the 500 series. That quality extends to the H series Hasselblads even though many vocal detractors will tell you differently. Don't get me wrong, I have my issues with Hasselblad, but I take it up with the company and not on the forums.

    Greg
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    I can not disagree Greg

    Besides, imagine for a moment that Fuji does design for Hasselblad. What's wrong with that? There are well know large format Fujinon lenses as well as there are well known MF cameras made by Fuji. And as an argument of last resort - trust your own eyes. Could any of these people say that results, produced HC lenses, aren't good?
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Honestly, I haven't been following this thread very closely, because I don't hold much hope that "the rumor" will be one I'm really interested in.

    So before I read all the comments in this thread to figure it out, could someone just tell me.....is the "rumor"....Hasselblad will produce a full frame square digital back?

    You know what I'm dreaming of....a 6x6cm sensor.

    Gary
    CFV-16II....nice enough, but it could be better

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Gary,

    No. Save your time.

    Steve

  36. #86
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Just as I figured.....

    No CFV full frame square. No Leica R10.

    I'm striking out on all fronts.

    My last best hope, Apple releases an iPad Mini with a 60mp full square sensor camera taking Leica R lenses.

    If anyone can do it, Apple can.

    G.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    What's a camera company to do?

    On one hand there are the folks that long for the old days ... when gas was 25¢ a gallon, kids ducked under their desk whenever there was a bright flash of light, everyone feared polio, and Hasselblad made the V camera.

    On the other hand, there are folks that need/want/desire more. Like the AF, fast handiing modular H camera.

    On one hand there is the never ending lament for a full frame square sensor to work with the V, on the other hand there is the wailing cry of how expensive most 645 MFD is. Can you imagine what a 56 X 56 sensor would cost? I'd speculate that the very folks dreaming of a fuil frame square sensor are the very ones that wouldn't pony up the staggering cost that one would have to pay for it.

    On one hand there are those that speculate how Hasselblad makes their gear as if it were fact ... on the other hand there are the facts as Mike pointed out straight from the horses mouth in Sweden ... but as usual, facts play second fiddle to emotional longings for the old days.

    I had the good fortune to run both V and H systems at the same time for a good while... and less of a personal fortune due to it Using the CF adapter I was able to do extensive real world tests of the Hasslblad H and Zeiss lenses, including the CFE 40IF, on the same 39 meg camera. Once completed, I sold all of the V gear and every Zeiss lens. As someone mentioned earlier, trust your eyes.

    Hopefully, Hasselblad will continue their innovative ways into the future and bring us more of what is possible like they have done with True Focus APL, ect.

    If I were to speculate anything, it would be to bet they will do just that.

    -Marc
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  38. #88
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Gary,
    About a month ago Hasselblad announced that on 18 September 2012 they will be introducing an "almost" medium format mirror-less camera. It was mentioned that the format would be 2xFF. Interpreted literally this could mean 36x48 mm. It was also mentioned that this new Hasselblad camera would have a sensor by Sony and other content by Fuji. Further details, including resolution, ISO and more were not specified leaving lots of room for speculation.

  39. #89
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Bengt, can you post a link to the announcement please?

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Bengt, can you post a link to the announcement please?
    +1 (I would love to see that link!)

    Kind regards,
    Derek

  41. #91
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    This is as close as I can get to traces of the original press release:

    --- July 24, 2012
    Hasselblad sending invitations for September 18 Photokina press conference

    Hasselblad is sending invitations for a Tuesday September 18, 2012 press conference at Photokina in Cologne/Koln, Germany. The first two paragraphs have the meat:

    "In 2002 at photokina Hasselblad launched the revolutionary H System that changed and shaped the medium format market of the new millennium. Embraced by professional and amateur photographers around the world, it is still the unsurpassed standard for craftsmanship and ultimate image quality.

    In 2012, 10 years later, our commitment to innovation, evolution and expanding to new horizons is as uncompromising as it has always been in the century long history of Hasselblad." ---

    End of compound quote.

    Other sources have quoted more details, the validity of which remain unknown. For hard facts and possible disappointments I'm afraid we have to wait until September 18.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Hasselblad has simply said it would show something new on September 18. The digital Xpan rumors are just people wanting a digital Xpan and is no more than speculation and desire.

  43. #93
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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    I'm as sure as can be that no announcement has ever been made by Hasselblad saying that "they will be introducing an "almost" medium format mirror-less camera".

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Just got an email from Hasselblad UK announcing an 8 city tour in October. 'First opportunity for both Press and Photographer visitors to find out more about products which will be unveiled at Photokina'. It's got to be a body, they wouldn't be doing that for a lens.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    This has now come full circle. This thread began with a post about a rumor: Hasselblad announced it will announce a new product; "It is the “almost” medium format mirrorless camera?"

    That speculation has now been cited for proof that Hasselblad has announced an almost medium format mirrorless camera. How many days 'til Photokina?

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    But the greatest thing about roller coasters is you can go around again...

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    This has now come full circle. This thread began with a post about a rumor: Hasselblad announced it will announce a new product; "It is the “almost” medium format mirrorless camera?"

    That speculation has now been cited for proof that Hasselblad has announced an almost medium format mirrorless camera. How many days 'til Photokina?
    Amazing how this can happen even in the context of a relatively short, written thread.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    I am still scratching my [bald] head about this one. Nobody has shown a communication from Hasselblad about any hint of what the product[s] may be, yet people seem to want a mirrorless solution from them.

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    Andy, do you watch "Reality" TV?

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    Re: Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

    :-)

    Why should I, this thread is even more exciting!

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