Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

[hcubell]

If you really want to rev up your fantasy life, check out Apple hiring the former head of R&D at Capture One. What may Apple have up its sleeve?
I thought I would finally be able to take a really good photograph when the new stuff comes out at Photokina 2012. Now I have to wait till Apple makes its move.

 

[Thorkil]

Yes!(to #1)

 

[Anders_HK]

The market is clearly ready for a competitive 40+MP mirrorless, autofocus camera with decent ISO performance. It does not have to be a sports photographers dream, but it should be a $5000-6000, top IQ, studio and landscape camera body.

Oh dear , NO. A camera that is reputed to do so many things will fail at mastering all.

EVF? No thanks. Photography is a series of events that begins prior to lifting the camera. Then when lifting camera I frequent look through my optical finder at the scene prior to deciding precise where from to make an image. What I see is through the lens or a premium optical finder, but still I see reality same as the scene, while in my minds eye I envision the image as captured. Why would I want a EVF image come between to compromise what I see and can envision based upon the scene? An EVF assumably is auto everything that show me a processed version and interpretation, and that does not necessarily agree with my vision of the scene. Confusing. Sorry :loco:

Current I use Hy6 with a 6x6cm focus screen, very large viewfinder and indeed very precise focus for 80MP. Large and bright viewfinder is lovely. For 617 or 612, if you have ever stared through a Fotoman finder you know they are crap, but the latest of Linhof finders are complete awesome to look through :thumbs:.

This brings us to Xpan... With Fuji also rumored to come out with a premium model over the X-Pro1, perhaps lucky guess it could be a digital Xpan??? They better keep an optical finder as part, for if you shot panoramic you know how important it is to find the right angle and view for a shot and to not have to switch on camera to do so and prior to setting up on tripod to make the shot. Perhaps best would be if they forgot the EVF from X-Pro1, but incorporated the electronic inlaid info. Who knows.

Fuji X-Pro is mirrorless, so Xpan would match..., also the X-Pro and X-Pan names...

Yet, why pay so much for a camera with mere a Sony sensor and from Sony that have no prior experience of larger sensors, and is not to same image quality as Hassy or other MFDB sensors???

There was also rumor of a second Hassy system too was it not??

Lets just wait and see. :watch: No more dreaming :lecture:

Best regards,
Anders

 

[MaxKißler]

Somehow, I wouldn't mind if nothing exciting will happen during photokina. Normally, I'm the first to be excited about new camera and lighting systems. When it comes to these things I turn geeky as hell but somehow I feel like it's all getting a bit old. It seems like there is no real innovation in these things.

And even if there was, would I welcome such developments? In fact, I would love to see some more simple and reduced designs. Less auto-everything, more craft required, more challenge. I'm afraid this is not going to happen...

 

[Bengt Nyman]

EVF? No thanks. Perhaps best would be if they forgot the EVF from X-Pro1, but incorporated the electronic inlaid info. Best regards, Anders

Hej Anders.
Agreed. The thought of trading the OVF for an EVF raises concerns.
However, the advantages are many. A comfortable way to get a magnified view of a high resolution live view screen could do the job. If I have to choose between the ultimate viewer and the ultimate final digital photo, I go for the photo.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Somehow, I wouldn't mind if nothing exciting will happen during photokina. Normally, I'm the first to be excited about new camera and lighting systems. When it comes to these things I turn geeky as hell but somehow I feel like it's all getting a bit old. It seems like there is no real innovation in these things.

Man after my own heart!

 

[ptomsu]

Oh dear , NO. A camera that is reputed to do so many things will fail at mastering all.

EVF? No thanks. Photography is a series of events that begins prior to lifting the camera. Then when lifting camera I frequent look through my optical finder at the scene prior to deciding precise where from to make an image. What I see is through the lens or a premium optical finder, but still I see reality same as the scene, while in my minds eye I envision the image as captured. Why would I want a EVF image come between to compromise what I see and can envision based upon the scene? An EVF assumably is auto everything that show me a processed version and interpretation, and that does not necessarily agree with my vision of the scene. Confusing. Sorry :loco:

Current I use Hy6 with a 6x6cm focus screen, very large viewfinder and indeed very precise focus for 80MP. Large and bright viewfinder is lovely. For 617 or 612, if you have ever stared through a Fotoman finder you know they are crap, but the latest of Linhof finders are complete awesome to look through :thumbs:.

This brings us to Xpan... With Fuji also rumored to come out with a premium model over the X-Pro1, perhaps lucky guess it could be a digital Xpan??? They better keep an optical finder as part, for if you shot panoramic you know how important it is to find the right angle and view for a shot and to not have to switch on camera to do so and prior to setting up on tripod to make the shot. Perhaps best would be if they forgot the EVF from X-Pro1, but incorporated the electronic inlaid info. Who knows.

Fuji X-Pro is mirrorless, so Xpan would match..., also the X-Pro and X-Pan names...

Yet, why pay so much for a camera with mere a Sony sensor and from Sony that have no prior experience of larger sensors, and is not to same image quality as Hassy or other MFDB sensors???

There was also rumor of a second Hassy system too was it not??

Lets just wait and see. :watch: No more dreaming :lecture:

Best regards,
Anders

While I am also not convinced of an EVF instead of a OVF in a high end large sensor camera, I must say that I totally disagree with your statement about sensor experience and Sony.

1) it is not a technical miracle for sony to make a 2x FF sensor - say 2x the sensor of the D800E

2) The D800E sensor is so good, it would blow away the IQ of ANY of the existing MFD sensors IMHO.

The reason Sony did not do that so far is mainly that they did not see the market for such a sensor. Given the fact that Nikon produces 30k D800 / D800E a month is merely a multitude of all MFD sensors together produced every year. So would there be the market for such a MFD thing from Hasselblad today? Who knows and who knows if Sony is going to be in the boat.

But the principle IQ thing being possible made by Sony - I have not the slightest doubt

 

[GrahamWelland]

...

This brings us to Xpan... With Fuji also rumored to come out with a premium model over the X-Pro1, perhaps lucky guess it could be a digital Xpan??? They better keep an optical finder as part, for if you shot panoramic you know how important it is to find the right angle and view for a shot and to not have to switch on camera to do so and prior to setting up on tripod to make the shot. Perhaps best would be if they forgot the EVF from X-Pro1, but incorporated the electronic inlaid info. Who knows.

Fuji X-Pro is mirrorless, so Xpan would match..., also the X-Pro and X-Pan names...

...

Lets just wait and see. :watch: No more dreaming :lecture:

Best regards,
Anders

I might be forced to trample a few grandmothers as I forced my way to the front of the digital X-Pan queue. THAT would get my wallet cracking open (within reason) more than probably anything I've seen recently. :thumbs:

I don't hold out much hope though.

 

[Andy Biggs]

Here is an interesting idea: what if Hasselblad retrofitted their existing H series camera without a mirror, a CMOS chip and some sort of EVF viewfinder that replaced the current prism?

 

[Anders_HK]

While I am also not convinced of an EVF instead of a OVF in a high end large sensor camera, I must say that I totally disagree with your statement about sensor experience and Sony.

1) it is not a technical miracle for sony to make a 2x FF sensor - say 2x the sensor of the D800E

2) The D800E sensor is so good, it would blow away the IQ of ANY of the existing MFD sensors IMHO.

The reason Sony did not do that so far is mainly that they did not see the market for such a sensor. Given the fact that Nikon produces 30k D800 / D800E a month is merely a multitude of all MFD sensors together produced every year. So would there be the market for such a MFD thing from Hasselblad today? Who knows and who knows if Sony is going to be in the boat.

But the principle IQ thing being possible made by Sony - I have not the slightest doubt

I have doubts. It is more difficult to make larger sensors, big question is reliability. I know of no Sony sensor perform as well as Dalsa, read colors and image quality. There was reason to upgrade my Leaf: reliability, solid product, super support, and their experience; not the least stellar image quality. For that money need be 100% reliability. Who knows, perhaps the Fuji will sell at half price? :toocool:

 

[Bengt Nyman]

Sony announces image sensor technology with PDAF pixels on the image sensor. Possibly part of a two step process with fast PDAF before fast accurate CDAF microfocus, both on the image sensor. JUST DO IT HASSELBLAD !

 

[ondebanks]

I know of no Sony sensor perform as well as Dalsa, read colors and image quality.

Anders,

How are you defining sensor image quality? Remember, you can't take lens rendering into account here. How much of your high rating of your Dalsa-sensored cameras is down to those lovely Rollei Schneider & Zeiss lenses? And how much is down to the sheer size advantage of MF Dalsa sensors over existing Sony DSLR sensors? So let's be fair, and put those factors to one side. Perhaps you could imagine that your MF back's Dalsa CCD was replaced by a Sony CMOS sensor of equal size and pixel pitch [that's the rumour we are discussing, after all: a MF-sized Sony CMOS sensor], and you shot it on your Hy6 with the same lenses. Just to ensure that the playing field is level and that we really are just focusing on which sensor brand/technology inherently performs better.

The things that you can now compare are:

- Signal to noise per pixel in a given exposure. Sony wins - it will be close in the highlights, but Sony has it in the shadows.

- Dynamic range. Sony wins.

- Readout noise, and associated High ISO performance. Sony wins.

- Dark noise at a given temperature, and associated Long Exposure performance. Sony wins, by miles.

- Colour. Dalsa wins - BUT - unlike all the other parameters we're comparing, this one is not really related to the electronic design. It's primarily down to the choices of optical filtration in front of the sensor; there is a secondary contribution from the silicon (photon absorption depth etc.). Sony could design filtration to take all this into account and reproduce the Dalsa's net spectral response, and get essentially the same colour result. But Dalsa can't copy Sony's electronics (...not unless they too switch to CMOS).

So inherently, at the unit-area level, the advantages for Dalsa CCDs, or Kodak CCDs for that matter, are not there. If the rumour is true and an someone like Sony starts to produce CMOS matching the area of MF CCDs, it will be the first real MF game-changer in 10 years.

Ray

 

[georgl]

Has anybody ever compared 1:1 DR between the latest Sony sensors vs. Dalsa ? Everybody just refers to the fantastic DxO-results...

 

[fotografz]

Anders,

How are you defining sensor image quality? Remember, you can't take lens rendering into account here. How much of your high rating of your Dalsa-sensored cameras is down to those lovely Rollei Schneider & Zeiss lenses? And how much is down to the sheer size advantage of MF Dalsa sensors over existing Sony DSLR sensors? So let's be fair, and put those factors to one side. Perhaps you could imagine that your MF back's Dalsa CCD was replaced by a Sony CMOS sensor of equal size and pixel pitch [that's the rumour we are discussing, after all: a MF-sized Sony CMOS sensor], and you shot it on your Hy6 with the same lenses. Just to ensure that the playing field is level and that we really are just focusing on which sensor brand/technology inherently performs better.

The things that you can now compare are:

- Signal to noise per pixel in a given exposure. Sony wins - it will be close in the highlights, but Sony has it in the shadows.

- Dynamic range. Sony wins.

- Readout noise, and associated High ISO performance. Sony wins.

- Dark noise at a given temperature, and associated Long Exposure performance. Sony wins, by miles.

- Colour. Dalsa wins - BUT - unlike all the other parameters we're comparing, this one is not really related to the electronic design. It's primarily down to the choices of optical filtration in front of the sensor; there is a secondary contribution from the silicon (photon absorption depth etc.). Sony could design filtration to take all this into account and reproduce the Dalsa's net spectral response, and get essentially the same colour result. But Dalsa can't copy Sony's electronics (...not unless they too switch to CMOS).

So inherently, at the unit-area level, the advantages for Dalsa CCDs, or Kodak CCDs for that matter, are not there. If the rumour is true and an someone like Sony starts to produce CMOS matching the area of MF CCDs, it will be the first real MF game-changer in 10 years.

Ray

The Dalsa sensor exists ... the Sony sensor is rumored ... so it doesn't exist. Sony loses all of the above points.

I have no doubt that MFD will go CMOS, either sooner or later. Then it will probably be a drawn out process of getting right, then more time to zero in the processing, and then we'll see if the IQ is as good ... given the use associated with MFD as opposed to 35mm DSLRs.

Currently, I have not used a CMOS based anything that delivers the over-all color of the Dalsa sensored backs I've owned (Aptus 75s and H4D/60). That includes a Sony A900 using adapted Zeiss V lenses with the same V lenses on the Mamiya/Aptus 75s kit. A900 old technology? So was the Aptus 75s.

So who cares what the whole imaging train may be ? ... it is the net result that anyone cares about. If CMOS can deliver as good or better, I'm all for it. I'm also skeptical.

-Marc

 

[Shashin]

Has anybody ever compared 1:1 DR between the latest Sony sensors vs. Dalsa ? Everybody just refers to the fantastic DxO-results...

There are more and more comparisons out in the internet of the D800 to MFD. DxO is one of them. Hard to argue with numbers. Most test are just pretty pictures that really don't quantify the results, so would not actually test whether DxO results are true or not.

 

[georgl]

Is there any link? I saw some comparisons of resolution but not DR.

 

[EH21]

I've run raw files of stouffer transmission step wedges taken with an aptus 12 and a D800 through imatest and the Aptus 12 was 12.5 stops and the d800 was 12 stops. Imatest provides a set of numbers for DR at different noise criteria which are more important to photographers but I can't recall these off the top of my head.

 

[georgl]

I think with adapting the very same lenses, quite decent DR-comparisons could be made in the real world (simply by choosing a contrasty setup), but for absolute measurements it takes a test setup that isn't affected by stray light:
ARRI Group: Dynamic Range Test Charts

Many cameras that were claimed to have extreme DR beyond 12 stops have been proved to be affected by stray light (which becomes a more serious issue with the contrasty setups to test high DR) - with the exception of the ALExa which has a special sensor technology not used by other cameras (dual-gain output to combine two 14bit signals to one true 16bit signal).

 

[Christopher]

Has anybody ever compared 1:1 DR between the latest Sony sensors vs. Dalsa ? Everybody just refers to the fantastic DxO-results...

I have tested the D800 vs my IQ180. I haven't done a full test, but I can say that in dark scenes (exposure around 1/2s) the D800 kills the IQ180 when it comes to DR. I can open up more shadows and they are much cleaner. My IQ180 shows slight banding after pushing 2/3 stops, but the D800 stays clean and only shows little noise. (lowest base ISO on both cameras)

Why haven't I posted anything ? Well, I want to do more testing first and would even like to get my hands on a second IQ and D800, just to check whether these tests were correct.

Color wise and such I prefer much the IQ, but DR wise the D800 is the best camera I have seen so far.

 

[johnnyngai]

I do hope senior management in Hasselblad would read this post.

Both Hasselblad, and Leica are legendary cameras manufacturers. In so many years, they produce so many fine cameras and lens, they are not just a piece photo gear, they are piece of gem to many owners. Many of such legendary cameras vanished in the digital era. But some survive and continue to be leading camera gear manufacturer, like Leica. It is because they value their customers, and protect their investments.

For many photographers, a lens not just a gear, they have taken many good pictures with it, and it is part of their memory. They do not want them to be left alone. I saw people use their “antique” lens on their Leica M9, or M8. Hasselblad have many fine lenses, and what I saw is people are using it on Nikon, Pentax, or Mamiya, and they are not use it with Hasselblad. I have a 203FE, I was so affair to use it as I worry that I cannot get replacement if they have any problem.

Hasselblad was once on the hand of some greedy businessman, when they migrate to digital system, they change everything, and make their customer to re-invest whatever they own. I bought a CFV39 which is cost me a fortune. But, something I do want to take picture with modern camera like H, and sorry, I have to buy another system. It is impossible for me, but even if you are rich, how can you carry so many gear with you in a trip.You don't win customer's royalty with such skinning strategy.
I hope Hasselblad new owner could bring some changes, I hope they would manufacture a new model of H, say "H4v" that allow use to use both H and V lens with minimum conversion (the existing converter is clumsy and not acceptable.) and also V back.