Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

[fotografz]

Why do we even need revolutionary?

We don't. They do.

While there has always been tension regarding how much is too much or too little, the rate of digital revolution (because they can do it) has become a juggernaut designed to separate us from our money in ever tightening cycles.

So instead of refining and improving something like the A900, we get a whole new experience whether we like it or not. Or a Sony NEX5, then 5N, then 7, then 6 ... wonder when the NEX1, 2, 3 and 4 will debut?

By the time you get something down pat so it disappears in your hands while making images, the next "mandatory" all new all singing/dancing thing barges its way into the process, and you start all over. :thumbdown:

(Pardon me as I pull my teeth out and gum the next sentence while doing my best Walter Brennan imitation): :lecture:

Why youngin, used to be you'd buy a Nikon Pro body and the next one didn't show up for 7 or 8 years. Now, just because the media changed, we have to contend with all this hoopla almost all the time.

Haven't seen a Nikon digital body the equal of the F6 yet. Haven't noticed the pictures getting any better either.

-Marc

 

[EsbenHR]

I don't think anyone has produced a 16 bit CMOS sensor yet which remains a key draw for MFD. It will be interesting if sensors go to 32 bit in the future and if there is any discernible difference.

Going beyond 16-bit is bad engineering in current designs.

The backs that do have honest-to-God 16-bit of useful data (make no mistake: they exist) all have relatively large pixels. This has to do with physics. The so-called "full well capacity" is a fancy way to say "how many electrons can be knocked out of the semiconductor that makes up a pixel".

If the pixel dimension is halved (i.e. you divide the area by four), then you need two bits less. You also will get that in practice, because you only have one quarter of the silicon in the first place. You also get a host of other problems, which is why "everything else being equal" is almost never a realistic assumption.

If we will ever see true 16-bits and beyond on CMOS sensors, they will likely be build by adding up multiple readouts digitally. You can obviously already do that (e.g. using HDR), but if it becomes possible to make through-silicon-via's cheaply in a way that is compatible with an image sensor, I think we will see multiple readouts during a single exposure. It would be easy and cheap to add bits, unlimited exposure lengths, fully electronic image stabilization and other things.

 

[markymarkrb]

What is the consensus? Does anyone think Hasselblad will be releasing another camera besides the H5D like a digital XPan next week?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I don't think anyone is actually done announcing. All we got from some OEMs are some tease products. There is more to come, we have not heard the last from Hassy yet and no word from Phase or Leica yet either. Stay tuned

 

[fotografz]

What is the consensus? Does anyone think Hasselblad will be releasing another camera besides the H5D like a digital XPan next week?

My consensus is that there are too many cool thing already here or coming ... and not enough money or time

-Marc

 

[gazwas]

It seems to me the technology in digital capture is at a plateau at the moment, certainly in MFD terms and like the newly announced iPhone 5 adding bells and whistles is about all manufacturers can do at present. HB may surprise me but I very much doubt they will this year.

Most of the interesting innovations in photography are coming in different areas. Have you not seen the new Profoto ProB4 and what it can do, all from a battery! :bugeyes:

Getting comfortable with a camera is much more important than having to have the latest and greatest IMO.

 

[hcubell]

I had quite a laugh earlier thinking about what the reaction of the new owner of Hasseblad must be looking at this thread and comparing it to the thread here about the so-called "new" version of the Hy6. In the former thread, there are dozens of posters moaning and groaning about the lack of genuine innovation in the new H5D and the new 24mm HC lens. Nothing revolutionary, but real, tangible improvements in the H4D series and what appears to be a groundbreaking MF lens. In the latter thread, there are a number of posters in rapture over a series of changes in a dead end product that hardly even qualify as "evolutionary" improvements, and the endless dream of a 35mm lens.
Tough business. Glad I am not in it.

 

[georgl]

Thy Hy6 itself is the most advanced MF-system on the market and now is "reborn" - that's what people are excited about, not the "Mod 2".
The H5D on the other hand plays it save, don't invest serious money into this business (still hoping an MF-EVIL will be developed and paid for by the new owner)...

 

[fotografz]

Thy Hy6 itself is the most advanced MF-system on the market and now is "reborn" - that's what people are excited about, not the "Mod 2".
The H5D on the other hand plays it save, don't invest serious money into this business (still hoping an MF-EVIL will be developed and paid for by the new owner)...

We tested the Hy6 in studio and I invited a die-in-the-wool Rollei user to help us evaluate it. I was pretty impressed, he was not. So, "best in the market" remains subjective.

My problem with the Hy6 was more about professional concerns than the camera's comparative attributes. Hasselblad and Phase rentals are readably available. There is a local rep with technical expertise readably available 24/7 (I have his cell #).

That the whole HY6 system was in flux only served to provide a knot in my "business" stomach and an unstable feeling of impending doom ... so I fully understand the elation of a possible revived platform :thumbup:

However, I also wouldn't discount a slower paced evolution like that of the H system over the past 10 years. Stability in uncertain times is not without merit.
I do not care if a camera company takes risks, as long as it isn't risking my system investment in time and money. Been there done that with the likes of Contax 645 and N systems ... and Leica R. Not pleasant.

-Marc

 

[Swissblad]

still hoping an MF-EVIL will be developed and paid for by the new owner...

I would like a digital Xpan a lot, but I fail to see why people want a MF Evil system, if there still is no 35mm FF equivalent. ....:deadhorse:

 

[Anders_HK]

Thy Hy6 itself is the most advanced MF-system on the market and now is "reborn" - that's what people are excited about, not the "Mod 2".
The H5D on the other hand plays it save, don't invest serious money into this business (still hoping an MF-EVIL will be developed and paid for by the new owner)...

Hy6 --- The big news is that DHW have been given rights to develop hardware and firmware for Hy6, big news since owner to rights is Leaf and of Leaf is Phase One. The other big news is that you can upgrade your existing camera. Is it worth the small price to upgrade existing camera?

- Improvements to handle detent mechanism
- Reinforcement to protect housing at handle
- Modified tripod plate to protect AF engine against long tripod screws
- AF offset register expanded to more lenses, all AFD lenses included
- Battery capacity indicator
- Improvements to fault management
- Mirror further dampened through firmware

H5D --- Is it worth the large price to replace existing camera?

- Hasselblad’s ‘next generation’ H System [exaggerated marketing, it looks same as H4D, what is revolutionary new to justify all pre-hype??]
- modernised design [different color scheme a'la leica??]
- complete new electronic engine [how was old one?]
- largest and brightest optical viewfinder in the market [I bet small compared to Hy6's 6x6 cm WLF]
- simultaneous raw+JPEG shooting [necessary for MF??]
- True Focus II technology [much difference??]
- and more ergonomic buttons [much difference??]
- new sealing for improved weatherproofing [need it??]
- optional battery adapter for standalone operation. [not needed for Leaf/Hy6]

Price for upgrade/replace versus gain??? Seems the joke must be on Hassy for all hype towards what seems so little gained for what will be a large price to replace camera, compared to DHW offering to upgrade existing Hy6:s. I guess that is how Hassy wants to make $$$ of users. Simply us Hy6 users have lucked out, to be offered to upgrade our existing camera seems as a unique treat to loyal customers. Plus of course DHW now have rights to further improve the Hy6 . It is indeed by many regarded and remain the best MF camera on market today. :thumbs:

And do not take me for slashing Hassy, was actually serious looking to go into the V system with WLF when I came across the Hy6. I would have been delighted to have seen a much complete redesign or new concept of Hassy camera, such as a modern version V. The Hy6 is what a modern V camera should have been like and I am simply thrilled each time using it!

 

[dick]

I don't know how photographers put up with Alpa, Arca Swiss, Rodenstock, and Schneider. Imagine you have to reset the shutter manually after every exposure. No AF at all. Where is the auto bracketing? Or even the exposure modes? It is about time that manufacturers automated camera movements, especially for the price you pay. Or are tech camera manufacturers exempt from the need to innovate beyond the 19th century?

You can get electronic shutters for pro cameras (Sinar eShutter £1000 + $1,500 per lens) .... and Hasselblad could take my advice and produce their 1/800th sec shutters in standard large format mounts, and get most of the tech-cam market?


So few photographers understand movements or what they could do for them... but this has been invented, and "he" says he is testing the production model ... are they marketing it yet? (I am not holding my breath any more).

They, GFAE, emailed me today, telling me that they will start shipping after PhotoKina, see my GFAE CapCam thread

 

[fotografz]

Hy6 --- The big news is that DHW have been given rights to develop hardware and firmware for Hy6, big news since owner to rights is Leaf and of Leaf is Phase One. The other big news is that you can upgrade your existing camera. Is it worth the small price to upgrade existing camera?

- Improvements to handle detent mechanism
- Reinforcement to protect housing at handle
- Modified tripod plate to protect AF engine against long tripod screws
- AF offset register expanded to more lenses, all AFD lenses included
- Battery capacity indicator
- Improvements to fault management
- Mirror further dampened through firmware

H5D --- Is it worth the large price to replace existing camera?

- Hasselblad’s ‘next generation’ H System [exaggerated marketing, it looks same as H4D, what is revolutionary new to justify all pre-hype??]
- modernised design [different color scheme a'la leica??]
- complete new electronic engine [how was old one?]
- largest and brightest optical viewfinder in the market [I bet small compared to Hy6's 6x6 cm WLF]
- simultaneous raw+JPEG shooting [necessary for MF??]
- True Focus II technology [much difference??]
- and more ergonomic buttons [much difference??]
- new sealing for improved weatherproofing [need it??]
- optional battery adapter for standalone operation. [not needed for Leaf/Hy6]

Price for upgrade/replace versus gain??? Seems the joke must be on Hassy for all hype towards what seems so little gained for what will be a large price to replace camera, compared to DHW offering to upgrade existing Hy6:s. I guess that is how Hassy wants to make $$$ of users. Simply us Hy6 users have lucked out, to be offered to upgrade our existing camera seems as a unique treat to loyal customers. Plus of course DHW now have rights to further improve the Hy6 . It is indeed by many regarded and remain the best MF camera on market today. :thumbs:

And do not take me for slashing Hassy, was actually serious looking to go into the V system with WLF when I came across the Hy6. I would have been delighted to have seen a much complete redesign or new concept of Hassy camera, such as a modern version V. The Hy6 is what a modern V camera should have been like and I am simply thrilled each time using it!

IMO, the HY6 and 645 type systems are different animals. I understand the love of the HY6, and yes, it is what the V system could have evolved to ...but it didn't. Fortunately for folks like you, Rollei did.

All in good sport ... my answers tit-for-tat (bad back has me sleepless, so I have time to burn) :ROTFL:

H5:
- modernised design [different color scheme a'la leica??] Yes, what many have bitched about since the H1 ... but also smaller/more compact. How much remains to be seen.
- complete new electronic engine [how was old one?] I'm sure more streamlined power management and speed was required as the meg count increased and internal processes became more complex, especially 50MS and 200MS machines.
- largest and brightest optical viewfinder in the market [I bet small compared to Hy6's 6x6 cm WLF] brightest for 645 which is the largest DB available ... pretty bright with exact viewing of the taking area not floating crop lines.
- simultaneous raw+JPEG shooting [necessary for MF??] YOU BET! Commercially allows quick remote client review, and if tethered to LR should allow fast capture sequences/bursts for less demanding work and quick internet posts.
- True Focus II technology [much difference??] Don't know yet. That remains to be discovered at or after Photokina. Current AF system murders the HY6 in every way, this will just distance it even further.
- and more ergonomic buttons [much difference??] YES. Since the H camera allows key control operation without removing your eye from the viewfinder (camera comp, ISO, flash comp, AF mode, motor mode,meter area, instant one button WB) the more tactile the buttons, the easier it is to select and set them. The three key, most used buttons on the grip have a nipple on the middle one so you can swiftly determine where you are without looking. It is little stuff like this that makes the H so fast to use.
- new sealing for improved weatherproofing [need it??] You are kidding right? Isn't the ground up design HY6 weather sealed?
- optional battery adapter for standalone operation. [not needed for Leaf/Hy6] Is needed for the H system since the whole camera is integrated as one, with one power source. Battery not needed if tethered on a tech camera. This is for stand alone untethered.

HY6:
- Improvements to handle detent mechanism > was the old one shyty?
- Reinforcement to protect housing at handle > was the old one weak, subject to damage?
- Modified tripod plate to protect AF engine against long tripod screws > damage thru bad design?
- AF offset register expanded to more lenses, all AFD lenses included > old one limited in lens selections?
- Battery capacity indicator > previously working blind to battery capacity?
- Improvements to fault management > Previous poor fault management?
- Mirror further dampened through firmware > bad mirror slap?

Sounds like the Hasselblad features improvements to already excellent components, and the Hy6 needs fixes for design mistakes. Big difference.

Marc

 

[Bengt Nyman]

I am still holding my breath waiting for Hasselblad to say: Oh, by the way, we are also introducing a brand new mirrorless camera system, the 2FFO and the 2FFE ..

I know, only a fool believes promises, such as the Hasselblad statements below:

--- "We are proud to have such an iconic brand in our portfolio and are convinced that with solid financial support and a suitable growth strategy, Ventizz can further strengthen Hasselblad's position as the first-class producer of medium-format digital camera systems. Furthermore, we plan to develop Hasselblad cameras to appeal to a wider circle of ambitious photographers," said Helmut Vorndran, managing partner and CEO of Ventizz Capital Partners. ---

And:

--- Hasselblad CEO Larry Hansen said his company is looking forward to exploring "brand new markets". ---

I can see Larry Hansen's statement coming from a non-technical, non-photographic executive misinterpreting the enthusiasm of a nearsighted chief engineer for something newsworthy in the photographic world.

But worse, I can also see this myopic enthusiasm repackaged and delivered to their new, non-photographic venture capital owners in an attempt to sell themselves based on an illusion of a new and bigger roll in the photographic market.

And yes, it can be done Hasselblad, but first you have to step out of the woods so that you can get a glimpse of what is happening in the "new market" that you want to be part of.

 

[BANKER1]

Call me a fool, an old fool at that. Oh, my my my. I hope you don't have to eat your words. In the US we call it eating crow. We'll see on Tuesday.

Greg

 

[Bengt Nyman]

I hope you don't have to eat your words. We'll see on Tuesday. Greg

For the sake of Hasselblad, and their many attempts to refinance and find a new market, I will gladly eat some crow. Hasselblad is close to my heart and their marching to a fading drum worries me.
I would love some good news on Tuesday. I am prepared to lunch any which way you suggest.

 

[Anders_HK]

Sounds like the Hasselblad features improvements to already excellent components, and the Hy6 needs fixes for design mistakes. Big difference.

Marc

Marc,

Not meant to step on anyones toes. :facesmack: As I stated, it all comes down to price for upgrade/replace vs. gain. The obvious question if being sold new camera will lead to worthwhile improvements in images or is based on primary marketing by the vendor. Perhaps I do not know the H but the improvements seemed a tad lame compared to the marketing hype? If I am wrong, I am happy there now is a better H camera, lets have a drink about it :chug:

Regarding Hy6, what I was told by Mr. Hartje, CEO @ DHW in a telephone conversation last friday;
- Mechanical improvements due to listening to customers among who are limited cases where there had been issues. Hardly on level of faulty design but per what I understand to further improve durability. Had there been many issues I am certain we would have heard of them, but I have read nada of such. But for the tripod mount does not sound good that a long screw can damage the AF engine which he said is expensive, but who on (&^*&#@$ uses a long tripod screw???
- Firmware improvements are due to listening to customers for improvements to an already good design.
- The fact that they offer upgrade of existing bodies because they value their customers.

Would have not minded at all if Hassy had a similar V body, happy to sit down and look over your H any time. It is a tool too :chug:

 

[EH21]

Marc,
I'm happy about the H5 but I wonder how many will upgrade just for those improvements? And while this is a HB thread, I do have to comment that when you knock the Hy6 wrongly, you are probably forgetting the issues of the original H camera and indeed H2 as well. Probably the H wasn't really great until the H3. I don't shoot H but it would likely be my choice if the Rollei platform didn't exist. But still you have to look at it all truthfully. Read the posts on the Hy6 here and on LuLa. Most of the users were quite satisfied with the first version which is something you can't say about the first H body. Hasselblad is into this for 5 generations now. Comments about 'design' flaws are off base. If you want to talk about design flaws - the mamiya 645 platform is your whipping boy. There's a camera that's gone through the most design generations and still has flaws.

 

[fotografz]

I am still holding my breath waiting for Hasselblad to say: Oh, by the way, we are also introducing a brand new mirrorless camera system, the 2FFO and the 2FFE ..

I know, only a fool believes promises, such as the Hasselblad statements below:

--- "We are proud to have such an iconic brand in our portfolio and are convinced that with solid financial support and a suitable growth strategy, Ventizz can further strengthen Hasselblad's position as the first-class producer of medium-format digital camera systems. Furthermore, we plan to develop Hasselblad cameras to appeal to a wider circle of ambitious photographers," said Helmut Vorndran, managing partner and CEO of Ventizz Capital Partners. ---

And:

--- Hasselblad CEO Larry Hansen said his company is looking forward to exploring "brand new markets". ---

I can see Larry Hansen's statement coming from a non-technical, non-photographic executive misinterpreting the enthusiasm of a nearsighted chief engineer for something newsworthy in the photographic world.

But worse, I can also see this myopic enthusiasm repackaged and delivered to their new, non-photographic venture capital owners in an attempt to sell themselves based on an illusion of a new and bigger roll in the photographic market.

And yes, it can be done Hasselblad, but first you have to step out of the woods so that you can get a glimpse of what is happening in the "new market" that you want to be part of.

You may turn blue before that happens Bengt But then you can have a Hamburger instead of eating crow on the 18th :thumbup:

Yes indeed, some Hasselblad engineers may have pulled the wool over the technologically saavy Ventizz, who's portfolio is almost all high tech companies, because they are dumber than a bag of hammers and their financial guys don't investigate the market they are entering. Then the horror of it ... the world shall cease to spin and the sky will fall. It'll make a good disaster movie directed by Roland Emmerich ... "Hasselblad 2012, the Apocalypse".

Who knows what time line they are on, which may or may not line up with Photokina? Who knows what "new markets" they are speaking about? It doesn't necessarily have to be those represented on this forum ... the photo world is a pretty big place.

What I do not quite understand myself ... and I am one of those photographers you reference ... what you are talking about that needs to be done? People have mentioned technology that isn't even available on the latest 35mm DSLRs, let alone MFD. Probably for good reason.

Should Hasselblad have implemented half-baked technology into their flagship camera? If they had made the H5 a EVF camera, my H4D would have been my last H camera. I'm even suspicious about MF CMOS as buying an unknown.

The 18th may or may not bring additional news ... one way or the other the H5 is on my radar and I'll know by the end of the week where my money goes (unless the wifey gets wind of it and wants the Kitchen redone instead :ROTFL ... because I am actually buying something, not just grousing about something I'm not in the market for.

-Marc

 

[johnnyngai]

Compare to Leica, Hasselblad looks more like a dying old man. The strong come back of Leica and Nikon should teach the management of Hasselblad a good lesson, they never give up (or dump) their customers. You can still put on your aged Leica/Nikon lens to you Leica M8.9.10, or Nilon D4 body. Hasselbad totally reinvent they camera with H body, and cutting all support to V Lens, and making their faithful customers' investment totally vanished. If your customers hate you, they wou't come back. And I never see any company success by dumping their customers.