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Thread: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I've done a lot of tests between the IQ 160 and IQ 140 vs the Nikon beast and yes there are differences but there not so vast as one would think either . Sure it comes in areas like color tonal range, micro contrast and some imaging look as well. MF looks a little less digital over the Nikon D800 but honestly the differences are there but its damn close and given the functionality factor of the Nikon system it can and is a viable tool. What I can't really understand is some folks just can't accept it as a viable image maker and these threads go on like its a religion and someone has to be right. They have certainly big differences within the systems and MF has special tools that the Nikon will NEVER have like a tech cam and its abilities. Im not sure any Nikon owner is saying hey MF we can kick your *** on any given day even on Sunday. No one is saying that but what we are saying is holy cow Nikon did damn good here and this is a viable tool that we enjoy shooting. At least I am and I like both systems and what they can do but what I will say and no one has brought this up anywhere on the planet at least yet . Nikon does need to go back in and work on there bodies algorythms. It is a little saturated and the color profile in the cam needs a little bit of a tweak. Basically get it in a more neutral state. Its a little punchy.

    I just got the E version yesterday and i am going out in the morning and run some tests on it. I will say its hot as hell here and my motivation to go shoot in 112 heat is zilch. But i played golf in it this morning so I really have no good excuse either. LOL

    BTW this comes from someone that has not had a lot of love for 35mm digital for a lot of years in either Nikon/Canon/Sony. Okay I loved my DMR just needed and extra 26 mpx for it. LOL
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  2. #52
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If I want or need "Broadcast Quality" for broadcast applications (which I do), I'll hire a RED camera and a DP that knows how to use it ... otherwise it'll be over-kill high quality video of birthday parties for the most part.

    Still waiting for the game to change ... haven't seen anything that shows this camera has changed anyone's photography so far. In some cases I think a few folks have taken a step back in their photographic aesthetic ...

    But, this IS the Medium Format forum, so what did you expect?

    -Marc
    That's pretty much what I expected. I am also a DP, so having this available in the D800 is quite amazing. It's a good thing you put those smiley faces in your comment or I would have thought your being a littlle arrogant.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 8th August 2012 at 16:51.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I've done a lot of tests between the IQ 160 and IQ 140 vs the Nikon beast and yes there are differences but there not so vast as one would think either . Sure it comes in areas like color tonal range, micro contrast and some imaging look as well. MF looks a little less digital over the Nikon D800 but honestly the differences are there but its damn close and given the functionality factor of the Nikon system it can and is a viable tool. What I can't really understand is some folks just can't accept it as a viable image maker and these threads go on like its a religion and someone has to be right. They have certainly big differences within the systems and MF has special tools that the Nikon will NEVER have like a tech cam and its abilities. Im not sure any Nikon owner is saying hey MF we can kick your *** on any given day even on Sunday. No one is saying that but what we are saying is holy cow Nikon did damn good here and this is a viable tool that we enjoy shooting. At least I am and I like both systems and what they can do but what I will say and no one has brought this up anywhere on the planet at least yet . Nikon does need to go back in and work on there bodies algorythms. It is a little saturated and the color profile in the cam needs a little bit of a tweak. Basically get it in a more neutral state. Its a little punchy.

    I just got the E version yesterday and i am going out in the morning and run some tests on it. I will say its hot as hell here and my motivation to go shoot in 112 heat is zilch. But i played golf in it this morning so I really have no good excuse either. LOL

    BTW this comes from someone that has not had a lot of love for 35mm digital for a lot of years in either Nikon/Canon/Sony. Okay I loved my DMR just needed and extra 26 mpx for it. LOL
    Guy, I really don't get the vibe that people aren't accepting it as a viable image maker ... of course it is. There is no right or wrong only aesthetic opinion ... often an opinion forged over many years of selective efforts. These are creative eyes looking at this stuff, not just science eyes.

    So the question back is why does everyone have to agree that the D800 is so great? The religious fervor seems to be coming from those bound and determined to convince everyone that this camera is the end all or close to it ... and those not convinced are luddites or not accepting it as viable for others. That simply is not true ... more power to all D800 users and be may they be happy.

    Personally, I aesthetically do NOT like the Nikon look and feel, (not that I didn't try) ... and that is also a viable opinion is it not? I also feel that nothing has outstripped the DMR in that regard, and had it continued and modernized, it's what I'd still be shooting most likely. Funny, in a way those additional 26 megs is why I now use a S2, which I admit didn't seem the same until I lived with it for a pretty long time. It is just now getting there for me. ... which is reasonable, since I used R gear for well over 20 years, so giving the S2 some time is only fair.

    And, again, this is the Medium Format Forum, so what does everyone expect?

    -Marc

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    That's pretty much what I expected. I am also a DP, so having this available in the D800 is quite amazing. It's a good thing you put those smiley faces in your comment or iI would have thought your being a littlle arrogant.
    Yes on the smiley faces.

    I am not a DP ... so will differ to your expertise as to capabilities of this camera.

    I have however created and produced a lot of commercial motion work ... including many multi-million dollar productions, and in fact just completed four :30 spots. and will be editing the last one soon. I stand by the notion that even if I had a D800, I'd still hire a RED unit or some other fully fleshed out system, and a DP/cameraman/crew that knew how to use it. Point is that not many people know the complexities, talent, and expertise involved in of doing motion work.

    However. I admit to a preference for film when it comes to motion work and used it whenever the budget allowed. Yet, people are using all sorts of capture devices for motion work these days ... including the iPhone 4 ...

    mymuesli2go, a tv commercial - filmed and edited on an iPhone 4 on Vimeo

    -Marc

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Than why do we have 50 thousand threads on the D800 Vs MF not to mention every forum out there. Its got to a religion level. Marc you have not tried the D800 lets be honest here you stopped at the last model D3X which personally I thought was not very good. Its a completely different beast and you keep going back and making that comparison. I think its not a fair comment and you just said it again. People need to move on from what was in the past here. I sat here worked my tail off between the Phase and the D800. It completely blows away any 35mm cam to date. Sure its not the same and it needs some work but seriously I dropped two prints side by side on a table anyone would have a hard time telling the difference. Aesthetically I gave up very little and that point keeps coming up which a lot of it is extra post work which many folks dont understand or do. What I gave up was my tech cam which yes i still want back in my hands. Honestly it comes down to post and I have seen some good stuff and seen a lot of bad stuff. Nikon takes more work in post and thats a given. Also like I said Nikon does need to tweak this more. Marc I hated 35mm for so long its actually scary my bias towards it. Now the tide has changed I still love MF and that will never change but this aint so freaking bad either now and that is the point I think a lot of Nikon folks are saying. If people accepted that than why do we have this many threads on it? Sure there will always be the my cam is better than your cam people but they dont come to this forum on a regular basis. You should read the stuff out there makes me want to rollup and hide.

    BTW public comment on the S2 i was never impressed on that cam until it was out about a year and the files actually started to look a lot better and that came with changes to LR. So its not always the cam either. The same with my P40+ i did not like it for about a year either until they fixed the profile/firmware.

    A friend e-mailed me this morning with the ongoing question or comment. I still recommended the IQ 140 to him.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  6. #56
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    My "fed up" thread started a very similar discussion to the one going on here... although there were some really great comments on gear/systems, the underlying theme in a lot of comments was this same "x is better than y" thinking that has gotten out of control.

    Funny thing, my questions were intended to get people to share their thoughts about technology and art... but it turned into a gearfest.

    Guy, you were one of the small minority that addressed the underlying funk... thanks.

    But here we are again talkin' about gear.

    Although I haven't cared much for the D800 personally, I think it's a fantastic camera for those who like the nikon system/aesthetic. It punches hard in a lot of different "boxing rings". It certainly does some pretty unbelievable things for a 35mm format system. What is problematic is that, in the end, there are no rules for which camera should be used on a particular job/locale, yet many imply that there are... and then pigeonhole certain cameras (that fit within those narrow visions of what gear is "supposed" to do). Reality is that MOST of the cams around can do most of the jobs put in front of them.

    If I'm going to address the OP... I'd say that both cameras look remarkably good. Personally (ahem), I think the Nikon makes the features of the face look less dimensional... more uni-planar. This isn't good or bad, just different. From a resolution standpoint, both are mighty impressive. I know I like the Hassy color better... but that's a personal call. Without the A/B comparison, I'd be happy with both. The H4D "sings" for me a bit more. I've yet to get my D800 images to sing, but damn I'm trying!

    Mostly, I'm ready for people to be happy with other people's gear decisions... and to just let well enough alone. All this gear-centric chest thumping is getting old.

    Hell... I might go buy p25 or a ZD just to spite everyone.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I agree diffrent cams regardless of format size will produce diffrent looks and files. I totally also agree nothing does everything well either. If they were all the same I think none of us would even bother to shoot at all. In this case the D800 is NOT for everyone and certainly we all know MF in any flavor is NOT for everyone. I happen to really like a tech cam some folks just flat out hate them. Difference is a good thing. What's more important is finding your art in anything you happen to buy and if it don't fit you well than sell it or return it. No brand is better and no format is better than anything in your hands that HELPS you obtain amazing images. I think this gets lost sometimes. Maybe a new slogan for this forum is " Get your ART on".
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Funny thing, my questions were intended to get people to share their thoughts about technology and art... but it turned into a gearfest.
    I don't know why you would be surprised. It's a LOT easier to obsess about gear than it is to make a truly compelling photograph.
    hcubell
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  9. #59
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Touché!

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I don't know why you would be surprised. It's a LOT easier to obsess about gear than it is to make a truly compelling photograph.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    My "fed up" thread started a very similar discussion to the one going on here... although there were some really great comments on gear/systems, the underlying theme in a lot of comments was this same "x is better than y" thinking that has gotten out of control.

    Funny thing, my questions were intended to get people to share their thoughts about technology and art... but it turned into a gearfest.

    Guy, you were one of the small minority that addressed the underlying funk... thanks.

    But here we are again talkin' about gear.

    Although I haven't cared much for the D800 personally, I think it's a fantastic camera for those who like the nikon system/aesthetic. It punches hard in a lot of different "boxing rings". It certainly does some pretty unbelievable things for a 35mm format system. What is problematic is that, in the end, there are no rules for which camera should be used on a particular job/locale, yet many imply that there are... and then pigeonhole certain cameras (that fit within those narrow visions of what gear is "supposed" to do). Reality is that MOST of the cams around can do most of the jobs put in front of them.

    If I'm going to address the OP... I'd say that both cameras look remarkably good. Personally (ahem), I think the Nikon makes the features of the face look less dimensional... more uni-planar. This isn't good or bad, just different. From a resolution standpoint, both are mighty impressive. I know I like the Hassy color better... but that's a personal call. Without the A/B comparison, I'd be happy with both. The H4D "sings" for me a bit more. I've yet to get my D800 images to sing, but damn I'm trying!

    Mostly, I'm ready for people to be happy with other people's gear decisions... and to just let well enough alone. All this gear-centric chest thumping is getting old.

    Hell... I might go buy p25 or a ZD just to spite everyone.
    "Here we are again talking about gear" ... which you follow up by ... talking about gear.

    Let's be honest here ... you didn't post with a "how do I get out of my creative funk"? You asked about the frustrations with working digital tools and lack of precision.

    People primarily talk specific gear here when the title leads that way, or when someone posts headings like "the end of MF superiority?" with this test or that test ... on a MFD forum no less ... what does anyone expect? Debate and opinions will ensue.

    To me, it sounds like everyone is supposed to shut up about what they believe or feel regarding the tools that effect their photographic art when an opinion they do not believe in is touted to the rafters. The tools DO affect the art, and many have found what suits them and will say so and why.

    Shelby, if you really believed that most cameras can do any job you put in front of them and shouldn't be pidgeholed, then why didn't you shoot the weddings with the RZ/Aptus you already had and was producing your art with?

    BTW Guy, yes the last Nikon I used was the D3X ... but the AF lenses I would need are the same ... I DO NOT like the Nikon optical look and do not want manual focus lenses (been there, done that: Contax/Leica R/Zeiss) ... and the D800 could have 100 meg, and still look like 35mm to my eye for certain types of work, especially people work.

    I do my art in private and for specific clients ... I don't come to a public internet forum for creative advice, I go to my mentor or others in my field for one-on-one discussions ... heck, I have never even met anyone on this forum in person, so how would they be able to discuss my creative needs, when they do not know me? I also learn a lot teaching my private students, which is very rewarding. Personally, I tend to only post images here to demonstrate something I may have learned or show a new technique to share ... especially lighting these days, unfortunately the lighting forum isn't participated in all that much.

    In the end I agree, I really don't care what anyone uses ... just stop trying to tell me, or strongly implying, that I should use it too.

    -Marc

  11. #61
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Whoa, Marc... none of that was pointed at you.

    You know I respect your opinions on gear and art, and have talked to you privately about it. Give me more credit than that, please.

    I guess I need to shut up about how I feel as well...

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Marc I strongly oppose your last comment a lot and to even imply that to me is a insult. I'm out of this conversation as anything else would not be appropriate as a owner.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Marc I strongly oppose your last comment a lot and to even imply that to me is a insult. I'm out of this conversation as anything else would not be appropriate as a owner.
    Sorry Guy, also not aimed at you ... it was a general comment on posts that keep implying that what folks are using now is somehow unintelligent or behind the times (which you have never said, nor implied and in fact have said the opposite) ... just reference back to the "this verses that" thread title and what then follows ... as well as others like it.

    If you'll indulge a bit of a walk down memory lane, it was often just you and I defending our use of the DMR based solely on our aesthetic take on the camera ... against a huge wave of reason and logic that picked apart the Leica. We were pretty vocal about it as I recall. Somehow this feels similar to me. That many still feel MFD provides a unique look and feel seems to not matter in the face of all the D800 claims ... all on a forum that's dedicated to MFD.

    -Marc

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Marc you have not tried the D800 lets be honest here you stopped at the last model D3X which personally I thought was not very good.
    Guy, I do not mean to pick on you but above is an example.

    I do not get statements like these, which seem again and again is argument from DSLR speakers, that DSLR measure up to MFDB and we should go out and try and buy latest DSLR. Why?

    Rather there are like you say clear differences. A DSLR or even iPhone can be used to make good pictures, but image quality and more differ, which is our own decision of tool.

    Now why the heck it should be argued of DSLR then over MFDB. Speaking for myself my Hy6 w/ AFi-II 12 and 80mm Xenotar AFD PQ cut me down from weight from five prior camera systems. I carry in small bag that is smaller and less weight than most DSLR shooters lug around. No way DSLR for me, frequent for DSLR it is pro zoom lenses that are top optics and they weight tons.

    I too was Nikon shooter before and gave up after D200 days. I found that camera as much inferior to 35mm slide film and with zillion buttons/function that are in way. Why Marc or even I need try D800??? I do not get it.

    As you said there are different preferences, but the religion is from those advocating latest DSLR and I think plain silly and childish. Again, this not directed to you, I just grabbed one of your sentences as example.

    Best regards
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Whoa, Marc... none of that was pointed at you.

    You know I respect your opinions on gear and art, and have talked to you privately about it. Give me more credit than that, please.

    I guess I need to shut up about how I feel as well...
    I didn't take anything as specifically aimed at me Shelby ... the mistake with my last post was not segmenting my responses well enough so the different points got all mixed up ... and I even pissed off Guy ... my bad.

    You know I love your work ... however, I do not feel I know you well enough to delve deep into art matters like I do with my long time friend Irakly who lives near me, or my mentor of almost 15 years who is in NYC.

    It is odd for me right now, for the first time in years I feel I've sorted out my tools and am more free to follow my creative instincts ... so to be honest on this end, I freely admit I'm a bit protective of those choices and would hate to see them fade away in the face of a popular ground swell of tools I do not like, nor feel any attachment to from a creative perspective.

    Emotional outbursts are kinda stupid for a man of my age I guess ... the curse of an artistic bent perhaps, or fighting for what I creatively believed in while in cut-throat adverting ... not the first time it has gotten me into trouble

    -Marc

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    Guy, I do not mean to pick on you but above is an example.

    I do not get statements like these, which seem again and again is argument from DSLR speakers, that DSLR measure up to MFDB and we should go out and try and buy latest DSLR. Why?

    Rather there are like you say clear differences. A DSLR or even iPhone can be used to make good pictures, but image quality and more differ, which is our own decision of tool.

    Now why the heck it should be argued of DSLR then over MFDB. Speaking for myself my Hy6 w/ AFi-II 12 and 80mm Xenotar AFD PQ cut me down from weight from five prior camera systems. I carry in small bag that is smaller and less weight than most DSLR shooters lug around. No way DSLR for me, frequent for DSLR it is pro zoom lenses that are top optics and they weight tons.

    I too was Nikon shooter before and gave up after D200 days. I found that camera as much inferior to 35mm slide film and with zillion buttons/function that are in way. Why Marc or even I need try D800??? I do not get it.

    As you said there are different preferences, but the religion is from those advocating latest DSLR and I think plain silly and childish. Again, this not directed to you, I just grabbed one of your sentences as example.

    Best regards
    Anders
    I'm not advocated people sell there MF for 35mm. Most of us have both in hand and the D800 is maybe the best I have seen in 35mm, so worth looking at in those terms as the backup or as a primary for imaging certain types of jobs. For fence sitters also they have a option as well that is pretty darn good. I don't consider it a replacement for MF. If I implied that than that is really not what I wanted to say. My personal decision was based on completely outside factors which have nothing to do with photography but a business decision for my other company that my wife and I own. It needed fuel.LOL

    But having had to do that I am saying sure its not the same but it's the best option there is outside of MF and it's darn close. I said this from the very beginning when I was running head to head tests that Nikon is on to something. Still not there and never will be just given the sensor size difference alone but if folks are looking at alternatives it's worth looking at.


    BTW I'm not pissed at anyone. I know many folks have deep feelings to there systems and tend to defend them sometimes. Just take the blinders off and look around, things are not so clear cut. Also be ready for anything it's Photokinia time coming.


    Btw this goes for Jack and I both as owners our opinions on gear sometimes comes across as gospel since this is our home. But it's really our opinions personally and not GetDPI stance on how this forum is. I hope folks understand what I am trying to say here. We have to shoot something does not mean everyone should shoot the same thing. Far from it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    The reason this is most likely in the MFD section is simply because of the MP count and the price. For those sitting on the fence, this price point and MP size of the D800, that gets you to 95% of MFD, is in itself worthy of debating the merits of each system. We are all at different levels in our careers, and the demand we put on ourselves as photographers regarding artistic expression is personal and expensive. What is not expected here, are general statements from a few that demean and insult the effort put in by so many because of their perceived superiority of talent and gear. There are many posts here throughout this site from generous photographers that have helped me and others make sense of many complex photography questions or set ups. Some are really good amateurs, to highly paid fashion/landscape photographers that personally, I'm glad to call peers.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 9th August 2012 at 10:50.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    "I do not like green eggs and ham.
    I do not like them, Sam I Am."

    To each his own I think.

    Larry
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I've done a lot of tests between the IQ 160 and IQ 140 vs the Nikon beast and yes there are differences but there not so vast as one would think either . Sure it comes in areas like color tonal range, micro contrast and some imaging look as well. MF looks a little less digital over the Nikon D800 but honestly the differences are there but its damn close and given the functionality factor of the Nikon system it can and is a viable tool. What I can't really understand is some folks just can't accept it as a viable image maker and these threads go on like its a religion and someone has to be right. They have certainly big differences within the systems and MF has special tools that the Nikon will NEVER have like a tech cam and its abilities. Im not sure any Nikon owner is saying hey MF we can kick your *** on any given day even on Sunday. No one is saying that but what we are saying is holy cow Nikon did damn good here and this is a viable tool that we enjoy shooting.
    You know I may have to disagree with you there Guy because that's exactly what some people are trying to say.

    I agree with everything you wrote btw - horses for courses, right weapon for the job, etc etc. Resolution definitely isn't everything though and I think that some people are overlooking that fact.

    As regards the value for money. Well, Nikon hit a home run
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Unfortunately you maybe correct Graham, you won't hear that from me though. People need to understand its limitations. Value for money grand slam. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    It is funny, but you would think photographs would unite photographers. Just having fun at looking at each other"s work and finding joy in it. But photographers turn out to be more like rival street racers checking out the competitor's car.

    What I choose to shoot is my personal thing. But I can have a blast looking at other work whether taken with an IQ180 or a Holga or a cell phone or even a D800. The camera does not invalidate a work.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    It is funny, but you would think photographs would unite photographers. Just having fun at looking at each other"s work and finding joy in it.
    Maybe in some far off fairy land but the reason why many of use enjoy this forum is because of its excellent gear related topics that are such a wonderful help to newbie and the experienced old time pro's alike. I for one have gained more info off this forum than from any dealer. The fact that you can also look at others work is one big bonus and really rounds off getdpi much better then other similar forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    But photographers turn out to be more like rival street racers checking out the competitor's car.
    Can't say I have noticed that but reading and contributing to a topic named Camera X vs Camera Y is always going to fuel opinion and an little healthy chest beating is unavoidable.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Maybe in some far off fairy land but the reason why many of use enjoy this forum is because of its excellent gear related topics that are such a wonderful help to newbie and the experienced old time pro's alike. I for one have gained more info off this forum than from any dealer. The fact that you can also look at others work is one big bonus and really rounds off getdpi much better then other similar forums.
    But there are also members like Dan and Graham and Lloyd that are really posting images. Patrick seems to be documenting his life on GetDPI. Certainly, the gear is a draw--this is about the only place I know where I can get feedback on MFD stuff. But I spend a lot of time looking through threads beginning with "Fun with a." I am also thinking of buying a Leica just so I can play in the Leica forum--the work in the MFD is great, but those Leica folks really have some fun.

    I have seen the competition between photographers here. I see photographers checking out another photographers gear in the street and if one thinks his camera is the winner he hoists it up a little while the other guy, and it is always a guy, swings his camera around his back to hide it. I've have seen photographers eye my camera thought the corner of their eye. When I see a photographer in the field and give a friendly smile, the usual response is a dirty look or they turn their back on me.

    If you can break the ice, then most of these folks are perfectly charming.

    We are a bunch of odd ducks.

    (PS I also think that internet communication is very unnatural and is difficult to communicate and represent yourself, unlike a face to face meeting.)
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    The Internet: Helping people, who basically agree, to have bitter arguments for over 10 years.

    --Matt
    Last edited by MGrayson; 9th August 2012 at 18:43.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I have seen the competition between photographers here. I see photographers checking out another photographers gear in the street and if one thinks his camera is the winner he hoists it up a little while the other guy, and it is always a guy, swings his camera around his back to hide it. I've have seen photographers eye my camera thought the corner of their eye. When I see a photographer in the field and give a friendly smile, the usual response is a dirty look or they turn their back on me.
    Rule No 1

    If I see another photographer I know I'm in the wrong place.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Regardless of what your opinion is on these two cameras, what the heck happened to Alex the OP and his thoughts following this test.......?

    One solitary post driving loads of traffic to his blog and never seen again for dust..... until the next blog plug probably.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Regardless of what your opinion is on these two cameras, what the heck happened to Alex the OP and his thoughts following this test.......?

    One solitary post driving loads of traffic to his blog and never seen again for dust..... until the next blog plug probably.
    Yes we get used and abused to drive traffic to peoples blogs. I should start sending out invoices for advertising fees. Better yet you want it in your signature send me 25 dollars i aint to freaking proud to take your money. Hmmm actually not a bad idea. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    True, the OP hasn't been back, but there was more in his first post than in many such blog links. It doesn't hurt that he has one of the better presentations of comparison shots.

    --Matt

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I am just wondering if we will ever go back to the good old days when a sentence with the term "medium-format digital" will not also include "D800."
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Whoa, Marc... none of that was pointed at you.

    You know I respect your opinions on gear and art, and have talked to you privately about it. Give me more credit than that, please.

    I guess I need to shut up about how I feel as well...
    don't shut up, its those considerations, not just of the horsepower of the cameras, but the feel about the rendening, the way the pictures touch, and ones feelings with the camera that matter.
    I'm dissapointed by the D800E. R-lenses might save it, but the mental connection lacks. It might go. Miss the the free and artistic M-feeling.
    Perhaps I'm the only one that misses your rather artistic pics, (children, bride thowing flowers backwards), a rather unconventional way in hitting the nail. Carry on!
    Thorkil

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Im not sure any Nikon owner is saying hey MF we can kick your *** on any given day even on Sunday.
    What I'm saying: "how cool that I can now afford a camera that gives decent results, rather than saving up for another half a lifetime for tech camera and a phase back."

    That's about it. I studied many comparisons between d800 and phase, especially yours with the 160. I never thought for a minute the Nikon equalled the MF. But if you had told me that picture A was produced by a $3000 camera and asked me to guess the price of the camera that produced picture B, I might have said $6000, taking into account diminishing returns. I would not have guessed $50,000. A lot would have to be different, not the least of which is my financial situation (I'm an artist for god's sake) to bring a technical camera into the realm of possibility.

    Meanwhile, the Nikon has tempted me into projects I never anticipated. I'm doing work handheld on the NYC subway ... just spontaneously started happening when I figured out how well the new toy handles low light. I never did this kind of thing when I was lugging bigger formats.

    I would still LOVE a tech cam and phase back. But realistically it's not going to happen any time soon, and I have work to do.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Great comment but the best part that caught my eye was you can now do something you have not dreamed about before. That's priceless.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    hope I don't see more of those threads in the future comparing new upcoming 35mm DSLRs vs. new MFD, i am sure some will come here or there to compare 50mp 35mmDSLR with 50mp MFD and will say that DSLRs are closer or beating or better or whatever, sure for price those 35mm DSLRs will be the winners, but if some people like here have deep pocket/budget they will always go with MFD + DSLRs, i started in 2005 and i never thought once i will have DSLRs, in 2008 i ended up with about 7 DSLRs inaddition to Nikon point and shoot, in 2009 i got MFD, so it was a big surprise for me to go that far so quick, not that, but also added film gear by 2009 and large format in 2010, so i started with DSLRs and ended with larger format and never look back, for sports and travel i will be use DSLRs most, but for many studio and portraits work or even still life then MF is my choice always over 35mm DSLRs, i was lucky to have budget to get MF but not lucky yet to have even higher MF gear than what i have already now.

    I come to those comparisons threads to see and read the opinions and i never worry about the conclusions, because each prove its pros and cons and i can't make one camera to be the GOD ultimate tool over another camera, and because of that i went with 35mm DSLR and MF[digital and film] and even LF, i will use them all to what i need or want, i don't look at one factor as colors or ISO or even large print only.
    Tareq

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    To be honest these threads are just zzzz to me. I have MF, 35 DSLR and smaller format cameras and the look of the MFDB is still pretty safe IMHO - resolution be damned (frankly I don't find this to be the important factor for MFDBs either). When it comes to colour and tonality I still don't see any of the non-MFDBs matching or improving upon what medium format digital can offer. Sure it's close and if you don't already have MFDB gear it certainly does make taking the financial jump much harder to justify.

    Sure - for the money there is no doubt that the latest 35mm DSLRs are superb value for money. However, qualitatively there's still a difference. Luckily for most of us the cost of the MF gear is already sunk and paid for so the financial benefits of the smaller systems are kind of moot. (Btw selling up and taking a bath to buy cheaper gear is high on my list of 'dumb' decisions to be honest - sorry).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Luckily for most of us the cost of the MF gear is already sunk and paid for so the financial benefits of the smaller systems are kind of moot.
    Agreed, but this doesn't bode well for the future of MFD. Will existing owners re-invest in MFD? Will enough new users invest in MFD?
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Agreed, but this doesn't bode well for the future of MFD. Will existing owners re-invest in MFD? Will enough new users invest in MFD?
    Keith, doesn't that entirely depend on what the MFD makers do in future?

    For example, if the Hasselblad rumors are true, Photokina will bring a mirrorless CMOS based smaller camera that still sports a larger than 35mm MFD sensor. (Of course it had better use an H mount, or ability to use H lenses including the HTS and 1.7X even if new lenses are introduced).

    As a confirmed believer the MF aesthetic, they have my attention and money over most anything else ... with-in reason.

    The "with-in reason" part is what will be a determining factor. I'm mighty pleased with my H4D/60, so it'll have to rock my world and present an obvious value to the work I do. Otherwise the "Photokina War Chest" capital I've been squirreling away will be earmarked for lighting and studio improvements, and a Leica M10

    -Marc

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Keith, doesn't that entirely depend on what the MFD makers do in future?
    Marc, absolutely.

    The problem is with fewer investing in MFD will the makers have the resources to invest in the future?

    Time will tell.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Marc, absolutely.

    The problem is with fewer investing in MFD will the makers have the resources to invest in the future?

    Time will tell.
    This may have more to do with how the MFD companies position themselves, what business model they adopt, how well they promote the format ... and/or how much or little they cater to the more mass competitive market.

    We all think that the amateur/enthusiasts is critical to their survival, which may be true to a good extent as it stands today. Yet, more and more, both the major players seem to be applying their technologies to very special applications in sectors where price/value competitiveness is less of an issue, and specificity is of paramount importance.

    If the MFD companies do want to remain competitive in the more general photographic market whether enthusiasts or professional, they had best get to it and both deliver obvious value and some sense of longevity, as well as promote :Why MFD?" more strongly. They cannot live off the past, real or perceived, very long (unless they are Leica ).

    -Marc

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    As someone mentioned somewhere else, I think what is happening with the recent advances in 35mm technology/quality, is that many people who were on the fence of making the switch, i.e. wealthy weekend warriors, semi-pros and some pros, will be inclined to hold-back from investing in MFD for a while. The D800 has definitely thrown a cat amongst the pigeons. I am not saying that the D800 is a true competitor to MFD because MFD still has superior colour, resolution and can cater for very specific needs, but bang-for-buck the D800 covers most photographers out there.

    I personally fall into the semi-pro turning pro category (in terms of earning a living) and am still on the fence. That is, not sure the step up to MFD is worth the $$ at this stage. This will change in the future once I secure clients who have specific demands, i.e. large prints/best quality. At this point there would be a reasonable return on investment.

    p.s.
    I heard a rumour that Sony are in the process of making organic 100mp sensors. These are interesting times indeed.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Keith, Marc & CBronicki: I think that at many points,you all are correct in their assumptions. The only reason for me at this point to think about a DMF back is that I still own a V system, otherwise, MFD would be completely out of consideration. Look at me, at this point of my life I can afford a fine used DMF back, but it is not 2005 anymore. Nikon now and soon some others will stand on the megapixel body plateau. Right now, I'm holding any big purchase till Fotokina. There are also rumors about Canon and Nikon going bigger than 24X36. If true, the immediate ones affected will be the "tweener" cameras and backs, I'm 100% sure. If Hasselblad brings a cmos sensor. I'm affraid it will be in the tweener section. Not enough for me to leave the convenience of the EOS system. The same happened to me with the Pentax 645, not big enough sensor. If nothing really important happens at Kina, I may decide to invest my money on bricks and mortar or perhaps a awd SUV. After all, landscape photography is 90% about location.
    Eduardo

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Oh dear... now discussion has turned into sustainability of MF makers vs. DSLRs...

    History lesson folks!

    Aug 1998 LEAF showed their 6MP Volare
    Jun 1999 NIKON announced their 2.7MP D1

    What has changed?
    D800E was announced same long after Aptus-II 12 ???
    Leaf; 36x24 sensor -> 645 80MP
    Nikon; 24x17 sensor -> 36x24 36MP

    Interesting to note from above is
    D1/Volare = 2.7/6 = 45%
    D800E/Aptus-II 12 = 36/80 = 45%

    = No change. Life goes on...

    but I bet... back in 1999 the Volare was killer image quality compared to the D1.... and discussion in above is

    I go to sleep
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    The current digital environment is too big to make sense of unless appealing to certain concepts. The way to think of the changes in photography is to try and sort through the information according to generalizations in the way that a search engine operates. For example, "size" has definitive boundaries that can be measured and that leads us to consider it concrete and objective. Meanwhile, "format" is defined by it's relationships which makes it abstract and subjective. It's possible to objectively discern the size of a camera sensor because it can be measured. However, the format of a particular sensor can only be determined by it's relationship to other sensors. This means that our definitions of format are ultimately subjective. The promising or uncertain future of all digital formats will most likely be determined socially.

    The reason for bringing this up is to try and put an end to the debates about what constitutes a "professional" format in photography. Yes, size is objective but format is not and this leads to all kinds of contention. Of course, we're all familiar with the 35mm FF vs DMF debates. Which one is professional etc? Or maybe...which one is more professional? If by professional we really mean "standard" (or the basis of comparison) then the way to arrive at an answer as to which format constitutes the professional format is to determine what sensor size all systems are compared. DMF is generally considered a larger format because of it's comparison to 35mm FF and aps-c etc are generally considered "cropped" for the same reason. Therefore, it's possible to consider 35mm FF the standard by which all others are compared and to accept it as the socially determined professional/standard format.

    Is the D800 the end of MF superiority? I ain't touchin' that with a ten foot pole LOL However, I can comfortably assert that the 35mm FF format is the social standard by which all other systems are now compared so it's safe to assume that it's identity and place within photography is more secure than any of the currently available DMF systems.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Hasn't the social standard become the cell phone?

    Point & shoots are being eaten alive by cell phones, and in a similar way I think the future of anything beyond that will be smaller sensor (APSc?) cameras with something like a 100 meg organic sensor if Sony has anything to say about it.

    Then the debate will swing to comparisons between high meg 35mm DSLRs and these little powerhouses ... where points made about MFD differences in look and feel compared to 35mm format, will be used by the 35mm users compared to smaller sensor high meg cameras.

    It's the wild west folks, rules and boundaries are evaporating at an exponentially increasing rate of speed.

    Which is why I'm an advocate of the MFD makers swimming up-stream with more MFD format characteristics, not less.

    -Marc

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Which is why I'm an advocate of the MFD makers swimming up-stream with more MFD format characteristics, not less.

    -Marc
    Speaking of swimming up stream, the more I hear about how great a leveler the current crop of 35mm DSLRs are (well, the D800), the more I want to shoot with something ELSE. I totally understand the counter-culture of film shooters.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Warning - I'm in a grumpy mood....

    It's getting very tiring reading about how this camera is better than that one and the entire world as we know it is just about done.

    This happens each and every time any camera manufacture releases its' newest and best camera. Saw it when the 1Ds was introduced, then again with the 1DsII and yet again with the 1DsIII (I use Canon as I really don't have any experience with Nikon). How 'bout when Phase introduced the P65+? People went nuts over it saying how medium format would never be the same and how the P65 was such a game changer. That is until the IQ backs were introduced.

    Reminds me of the early days of personal computers where a new improved model was being introduced at a rate of several every 6-months.

    Then there's the small sensor and 4/3's cameras.

    Why do we have this compulsion to comparing different camera sensors? A 35mm camera is just that, 35mm. A full size 35mm sensor is 36x24mm. A medium format sensor is 53.9x40.4mm. At this point I really couldn't care less that there's a 35mm camera that offers 36 megapixels because no matter how you slice it, it remains what it is - 35mm and I choose not to use 35mm.

    I'm not trying to bash 35mm. I'm very pleased to see that Nikon has developed a 36 megapixel 35mm camera and hope Canon will soon follow. I'm of the opinion that what Nikon has done is change the face of 35mm photography as we now know it; however, no matter the megapixel the sensor remains that of 35mm. It's very close to saying you can make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

    Again the grumpy warning...

    If you feel that a high megapixel 35mm camera is "the end of medium format superiority" then you're misinformed as to what medium format brings to the table. This is close to saying medium format is superior to large format. While medium format has closed the gap that gap like the one between 35mm and medium format will always be there.

    Still grumpy but at least I have it off my chest.

    Don
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Hasn't the social standard become the cell phone?
    I'm not sure if that's happened yet, but it definitely could occur. Of course, I was referring to the social standard of comparison which is different from popularity in sales or numbers of items owned. Basically, the main point I'm trying to make about digital is that social media means "social" in every sense of the word. The future of digital camera systems will mostly be determined by social facts (in the Emile Durkheim sense) rather than objective facts (the nerdy engineer with his pocket protector)


    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Speaking of swimming up stream, the more I hear about how great a leveler the current crop of 35mm DSLRs are (well, the D800), the more I want to shoot with something ELSE. I totally understand the counter-culture of film shooters.
    Me too, that's why I'm completely finished with digital.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Speaking of swimming up stream, the more I hear about how great a leveler the current crop of 35mm DSLRs are (well, the D800), the more I want to shoot with something ELSE. I totally understand the counter-culture of film shooters.
    I don't know. It was nice for my ego to walk around with a 4x5 on a crucifix-sized wood tripod, knowing that no one else would mistake me for one of them.

    But seriously, in the end I'd rather distinguish myself with the work, not the camera. There's actually something rewarding about being able to do something distinctive even though you've got the same kind of tool as everyone else. The d800 (or insert equivalent here) has a kind of anonymity that takes the attention off the tool, and off the photographer even. I go a step farther and cover the logos on mine with black tape. Now it's a generic camera. I think less about it and more about what I'm doing. And I plan to use it for very un-generic work

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I have a D800 and some great glass for it. It allows me to shoot a genre of images that my medium format gear can't shoot. Beyond that I have no love for it. I do enjoy using my MF gear ... Ultimately it's as simple as that.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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  49. #99
    Super Duper
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    I don't know. It was nice for my ego to walk around with a 4x5 on a crucifix-sized wood tripod, knowing that no one else would mistake me for one of them.
    I think the big DSLR impresses folks more, especially with a big lens. When I have an unusual camera type, I am more often that not mistaken for a surveyor.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I am more often that not mistaken for a surveyor.

    Especially when you wear your yellow hardhat.
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