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Thread: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Warning - I'm in a grumpy mood....

    It's getting very tiring reading about how this camera is better than that one and the entire world as we know it is just about done.

    This happens each and every time any camera manufacture releases its' newest and best camera. Saw it when the 1Ds was introduced, then again with the 1DsII and yet again with the 1DsIII (I use Canon as I really don't have any experience with Nikon). How 'bout when Phase introduced the P65+? People went nuts over it saying how medium format would never be the same and how the P65 was such a game changer. That is until the IQ backs were introduced.

    Reminds me of the early days of personal computers where a new improved model was being introduced at a rate of several every 6-months.

    Then there's the small sensor and 4/3's cameras.

    Why do we have this compulsion to comparing different camera sensors? A 35mm camera is just that, 35mm. A full size 35mm sensor is 36x24mm. A medium format sensor is 53.9x40.4mm. At this point I really couldn't care less that there's a 35mm camera that offers 36 megapixels because no matter how you slice it, it remains what it is - 35mm and I choose not to use 35mm.

    I'm not trying to bash 35mm. I'm very pleased to see that Nikon has developed a 36 megapixel 35mm camera and hope Canon will soon follow. I'm of the opinion that what Nikon has done is change the face of 35mm photography as we now know it; however, no matter the megapixel the sensor remains that of 35mm. It's very close to saying you can make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

    Again the grumpy warning...

    If you feel that a high megapixel 35mm camera is "the end of medium format superiority" then you're misinformed as to what medium format brings to the table. This is close to saying medium format is superior to large format. While medium format has closed the gap that gap like the one between 35mm and medium format will always be there.

    Still grumpy but at least I have it off my chest.

    Don
    Don,

    just instead of writing all this - give it a try, get a D800E and try it with some good glass. You will be pleased

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I am more often that not mistaken for a surveyor.

    Especially when you wear your yellow hardhat.
    It was worse when people saw my light meter and wanted to know why I still use such an old cell phone.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Don,

    just instead of writing all this - give it a try, get a D800E and try it with some good glass. You will be pleased

    Peter
    Thanks for the invite Peter. I have no doubt that it is a really good 35mm camera. But that's it - it's 35mm. I need the larger sensor of medium format for what I do and print. I could see trying it if the sensors were the same but they aren't.

    As always this is my opinion and 2 worth.

    Don
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    ... I am more often that not mistaken for a surveyor.
    I remember when I first began using the WRS - I actually had people walk up and ask what video camera I was using.....
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Thanks for the invite Peter. I have no doubt that it is a really good 35mm camera. But that's it - it's 35mm. I need the larger sensor of medium format for what I do and print. I could see trying it if the sensors were the same but they aren't.

    As always this is my opinion and 2 worth.

    Don
    Don,

    I know what you feel and what you mean!

    Owning and extensively using the D800E myself, I am very well aware of the differences to my Hasselblad H3D39 and there are for sure more differences to a Tech Cam with an even higher resolution sensor.

    Having said that - I would not nearly have made all the images with my Hasselblad, let alone a Tech Cam, which I have made in the last 2 months with the D800E.

    And sure you need to treat the files appropriately, so OOC RAW of JPEG will not do in most cases. But there is also not too much difference to MFD, also there files need treatment.

    But not even trying the D800E really leaves you out somewhere, where you think 35mm FF DSLR photography is - but it is no longer there - time has changed. So why not just try it, it is not much money compared to a Tech Cam with IQxyz and some lenses. What can be wrong? Just use it as your new P&S. You will not believe where this new technology will bring you ....

    Just my 2c

    Peter

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    ....

    And sure you need to treat the files appropriately, so OOC RAW of JPEG will not do in most cases. But there is also not too much difference to MFD, also there files need treatment.

    But not even trying the D800E really leaves you out somewhere, where you think 35mm FF DSLR photography is - but it is no longer there - time has changed. So why not just try it, it is not much money compared to a Tech Cam with IQxyz and some lenses. What can be wrong? Just use it as your new P&S. You will not believe where this new technology will bring you ....

    Just my 2c

    Peter
    Peter,

    I've been shooting Nikon digital since the D1 all the way through to FF D3/D3s/D3x and now D800 myself. Trust me, nothing has changed. Sure things have gotten better but it's still 3:2 aspect ratio, form factor and still somewhat digital look compared to MF (IMHO).

    It's just different.

    My $0.01 ... because I know I sound like a broken record.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Hey you exceeded your .2 cents your now up to .3 cents. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I think the big DSLR impresses folks more, especially with a big lens. When I have an unusual camera type, I am more often that not mistaken for a surveyor.
    Me too, and I took advantage. I still use the wood tripod, and I still keep an orange reflective vest in my camera bag. This lets me pull over on roads where I'm not supposed to, trespass just about anywhere, and sometimes even set up in the middle of the street.

    A related issue: people know that a big dslr with a big lens is expensive. A large format camera makes you look a bit like a nut who rides a victorian high-wheel bicycle, but no one suspects you have anything worth stealing.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Not so sure of that my Tech cam got a lot of attention. Yes I look crazy and only reason no one will mug me. You dont mug crazy people, its just not socially polite. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    Me too, and I took advantage. I still use the wood tripod, and I still keep an orange reflective vest in my camera bag. This lets me pull over on roads where I'm not supposed to, trespass just about anywhere, and sometimes even set up in the middle of the street.
    high-vis - me too. It also helps with being seen on the side of the road out in the boonies where the bozos in their trucks race around and when the brain dead weekend drivers are out. At least they see you before you jump out of the way.

    I must admit I have thought about adding an orange hard hat to my gear too for those days when I go exploring more industrial sites.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    And then there are those hunting accidents--I am sorry officer, it looked like a giant squirrel using a tripod mounted camera and a hardhat...

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    A related issue: people know that a big dslr with a big lens is expensive. A large format camera makes you look a bit like a nut who rides a victorian high-wheel bicycle, but no one suspects you have anything worth stealing.
    Makes me think when the other year I was set up on Peoples Square in Shanghai with my wooden Shen Hau 4x5 and custom made sliding adapter for my Leaf back. This young Chinese gentleman with a DSLR round his neck walked up to me and asked politely and serious "Is that a camera?".

    Why try DSLR again when not like? With a pro zoom, weight is about same as MFD, then why not rather complement with other lighter weight camera?

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I think that the D800 is a game-changer for those that had MF solely for the image quality but hated the large slow inflexible and super-expensive cameras. The "good enough" level has been reached for many. It seems similar to the situation when the P45 came out and 4x5" users started to go digital because it was now good enough, and developing film and drum scanning weren't really all that fun. Also that time it was not about "ending 4x5 superiority", but that digital had become good enough to be an alternative which happened to be so very much more flexible.

    As a tech camera user I just enjoy working with it, and my shooting style requires movements. And I don't think Nikon's tilt-shift options are good enough. But say in 2014 when/if Canon has updated their 45 and 90mm TS-E with more flexible movements (like the new 17 and 24) and new optics, and have a 40 megapixel body. Hmm... I do find my tech camera kind of charming, but there is a limit to how much flexibility and money I can sacrifice if attractive alternatives would appear.

    It shall be interesting to see where the MF market is in five years. I don't dare to guess.
    Last edited by torger; 13th August 2012 at 14:42.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I've left 35mm format twice now. The first was when I made the switch to medium format. I was shooting with a 1DsII and as good as those files are I knew I was missing "something". The 1DsII was replaced with a P30+ which was replaced with a P45+ after I switched to the WRS. I tried 35mm again for about 18-months using a Leica M9 as my "walk around" camera. As close as I found the M9 I was still left wanting. Wanting a larger sensor. The M9 is now gone having been replaced with a DF and I can't begin to describe how happy I am with the WRS/DF combo.

    Sandy, my wife and shooting partner shoots with a 1DsIII and loves it. Yet we both can tell the difference in files shot between the 2-systems.

    I'm not trying to knock 35mm as I do like it; I just like medium format more and choose to use it. In the end it's up to the individual photographer to exercise their individualism in choosing what best suits them and their art. What gets me grumpy is when people attempt to compare two totally different systems and try to make them both fit. We're talking about two totally separate sensor sizes and types; they aren't equal and won't be.

    Nikon appears to have hit it out the ballpark with their D800 series and should be congratulated. However it still isn't medium format a format I choose to continue to use.

    I'm probably down to 1 here so I go find a dark corner....

    Don


    One final thought. I am in no way suggesting people shouldn't try the D800 if they want to update their 35mm systems. My only thought is I don't feel you can expect the same level of photography (files, color, tones, etc.) if you compare two totally different systems (sensor size or type).

    Going back to my dark corner now
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    .005 but we still love ya. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    .005 but we still love ya. Lol
    Wait! Do I need to start bumming for change now?
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    You all need to actually start sending ME the .02 hell by year end I could buy a freaking lens. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Many of the great Masters of Photography in the 20th century, used primarily 2 cameras.
    Walker Evans for instance, used the Leica and an 8x10. Weston used 8x10 and speed graphics and even 645. So, different tools for different uses.
    As photographers age, they do go lighter. Ansel went down to Hassleblad. Some of the technical cameras are lighter than the whole MFd camera with lens as well. And the lenses can be incredible. So they are another choice.
    You decide about weight, size, quality, and utility for what kind of photography you wish to do. Just make images and enjoy...
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    The older I get the simpler I like life to be.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by RodK View Post
    You decide about weight, size, quality, and utility for what kind of photography you wish to do. Just make images and enjoy...
    Confession time: I'm off on a couple of photography trips in September and I'll be bringing along both my D800 & Alpa/Phase One IQ systems. The IQ sucks at night work and the Alpa is a joy for landscapes. Now if I could mount the D800 on the Alpa, or the IQ could shoot night shots worth a damn, I'd be super happy with the best of both worlds I suppose but alas ...

    Horses for courses. Yin & Yang. Chalk & Cheese and no doubt several other over used metaphors apply.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Don,

    Having said that - I would not nearly have made all the images with my Hasselblad, let alone a Tech Cam, which I have made in the last 2 months with the D800E.
    I find the opposite to be true ... my d800e outfit with 3 zeiss primes and a couple of zooms is only a few pounds lighter than my DF/1Q180 outfit with 3 primes and the 75-150. And everytime I go to a shoot I have both systems in the car, but I can't find a reason to get the Nikon out of the car instead of the Phase.

    I've shot side by side with the two systems and while I agree the Nikon is the best sensor ever in a 35mm dSLR and with the Zeiss glass delivers some great qualities, I still struggle with the files getting what I want ... I can get there but it seems to be a lot more work. And sorry, but print a 90" pano and the Nikon just can't handle it as well ... it's a stretch for the IQ180 as well, but there is a difference.

    I've shot with MF for so long (since the 70's) that I don't find the dSLR workflow shooting any faster. I never hand hold (I'm strictly a landscape shooter I don't even shoot wildlife) . The only advantage I think I can find with it is with telephoto reach on occasion and for long exposure work (which may be the main reason I end up keeping it)

    I'm guessing my Nikon will be for sale in the near future. I wanted to give it a go, but I actually prefer the NEX 7 sensor with the Nikon and Zeiss glass and it holds up just fine to 24x30 and is still pretty good at 30x40. Go to 40x60 and the nikon beats the NEX but at that size it's not holding up against the IQ180.

    and of course that's just my 2 cents. as has been said before horses for courses, but the title of this thread seems odd since it's comparing a rather dated and pretty mediocre resolution MFD against the best that a 35mm can offer.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    ...but the title of this thread seems odd since it's comparing a rather dated and pretty mediocre resolution MFD against the best that a 35mm can offer.
    That's the idea, isn't it? The state of the art small thing isn't going to compete with the state of the art big thing. But it might get into the same room with lower-tier big thing, while still costing a fraction.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    That's the idea, isn't it? The state of the art small thing isn't going to compete with the state of the art big thing. But it might get into the same room with lower-tier big thing, while still costing a fraction.
    sure, I'll agree with that ... but I wouldn't label it "the end of medium format superiority" ...
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I think the big problem for the MF makers will be to get new customers. Existing are probably satisfied, many come from using MF film or LF film previously and to that it was a real upgrade in flexibility.

    However, today beginning photographers start with DSLRs and get used to them, and what has MF to offer to them? Sure there are a few things, more resolution, higher flash sync speed, more flexible movements in tech cams, a subtle difference in look. But also bad long exposure, worse ISO performance, nowadays even worse DR, slower cameras, bad live view and a 5x-10x higher price. I think MF makers will have to try harder if they want to survive another 10 years (or at least avoid shrinking drastically).

    I don't think they need to be better at everything, but I think something in the current value proposition need to change.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    I find the opposite to be true ... my d800e outfit with 3 zeiss primes and a couple of zooms is only a few pounds lighter than my DF/1Q180 outfit with 3 primes and the 75-150. And everytime I go to a shoot I have both systems in the car, but I can't find a reason to get the Nikon out of the car instead of the Phase.

    I've shot side by side with the two systems and while I agree the Nikon is the best sensor ever in a 35mm dSLR and with the Zeiss glass delivers some great qualities, I still struggle with the files getting what I want ... I can get there but it seems to be a lot more work. And sorry, but print a 90" pano and the Nikon just can't handle it as well ... it's a stretch for the IQ180 as well, but there is a difference.

    I've shot with MF for so long (since the 70's) that I don't find the dSLR workflow shooting any faster. I never hand hold (I'm strictly a landscape shooter I don't even shoot wildlife) . The only advantage I think I can find with it is with telephoto reach on occasion and for long exposure work (which may be the main reason I end up keeping it)

    I'm guessing my Nikon will be for sale in the near future. I wanted to give it a go, but I actually prefer the NEX 7 sensor with the Nikon and Zeiss glass and it holds up just fine to 24x30 and is still pretty good at 30x40. Go to 40x60 and the nikon beats the NEX but at that size it's not holding up against the IQ180.

    and of course that's just my 2 cents. as has been said before horses for courses, but the title of this thread seems odd since it's comparing a rather dated and pretty mediocre resolution MFD against the best that a 35mm can offer.
    Well Wayne,

    if this is the case, you are probably not the right user for the D800E and I would really consider selling this "bad" camera and further enjoy you tech cam.

    A final word to print sizes - I cannot get any longer impressed by these numbers being thrown around when it comes to how big you can print, since I have seen stunning results from 10MP cameras printed 3x2m (how much is that in inch?).

    And WRT to comparing - it is 40MP against 36MP, so it is not so odd as comparing 80MP to 36MP - right?
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    sure, I'll agree with that ... but I wouldn't label it "the end of medium format superiority" ...
    I think this is one of the main problems with both the title of this thread, and the article in question.

    The conclusion of the article itself quite clearly says "no".

    The author of the article says he'll stay with the MF kit.

    Personally, I have a real issue with this kind of trolling for hits, because that's precisely what it is. Trolling.

    "Extensive testing shows that H4D40 is superior to D800E" wouldn't have generated quite so much interest, would it?

    In fact, the conclusions of each test, one by one:

    First test, a child portrait:
    There is difference, Hasselblad produced slightly more details and color was more balanced to a girl skin tone.
    ...
    Second test, Underexposure and Shadows recovery:
    Both cameras did a great job recovering very dark areas of the image, with slight advantage on Hasselblad’s side: Phocus software were able to handle noise better than Nikon’s ViewNX and ACR, and delivered less contrast (which is good) and more detailed image.
    ...
    Third test, Overexposure and highlights recovery:
    Basically the situation is the same: there is a visible advantage of Hasselblad over Nikon in resolution and details.
    ...
    Last test, The Colors:
    As expected, Hasselblad delivered better color accuracy

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by photohagen
    if this is the case, you are probably not the right user for the D800E and I would really consider selling this "bad" camera and further enjoy you tech cam.?
    No ****. We love shooting MF and really don't need convincing otherwise. Really.

    Gerald:
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    No ****. We love shooting MF and really don't need convincing otherwise. Really.

    Gerald:
    Exactly!

    So why bother with the D800E? It cannot deliver what MFD can deliver. Right?

    It is soooo easy, just continue enjoying MFD and tech cam

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    No ****. We love shooting MF and really don't need convincing otherwise. Really.

    Gerald:
    This is the crux of the matter isn't it?

    The same holds true for those who need the 35mm format. While I'm not much of a fan of 35mm (except when it is in the unique form of a Leica Rangefinder), I have to use a 35mm DSLR for some work I do. In that sense it is a valuable tool in the gear box, and will remain so until I stop doing that type of work.

    What I do not need is something who's top level performance is near the bottom rung of the MFD format. A 35mm camera that requires the same shooting discipline as MFD to realize that performance is less valuable in terms of my 35mm application than one than does not. If I am going to all that trouble, I might as well use something that is at the top rung of MFD.

    I think the D800 is a great innovation, as will be the even more pixel packed 35mm DSLRs sure to follow. It should relieve the MFD makers from filling the previous resolution gap between 35mm and MFD, and get on with swimming upstream with either bigger-better specialty, and/or more innovative larger sensor cameras that exploit the MFD size aspects while jettisoning all the film legacy stuff that has held back both FF 35mm DSLRs and MFD systems.

    If the rumors are true, Hasselblad may have figured this out sooner rather than later ... we'll see soon enough.

    -Marc

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    snip ... A final word to print sizes - I cannot get any longer impressed by these numbers being thrown around when it comes to how big you can print, since I have seen stunning results from 10MP cameras printed 3x2m (how much is that in inch?) ... snip.
    If that's true, then why do you need a 36 meg 35mm DSLR?

    -Marc

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I took photographs of my favorite scene with my H4D/40, and my D800, using prime lenses. The original (h4d) image has been published many times and is my best selling scenic, so far. I didn't do an exact set-up, as this was just a whim out of curiosity, but the aesthetic and detail of the D800 is close...very close. Close enough, that i'm pretty sure the casual reader would never know the difference, and this is the point of all these discussions. I also shoot many portraits with strobes, and while sync speed and LS lenses favor the H4D (i prefer LS lenses for portraits), the D800 really shines in this area. You might have to play more to get the D800 colors/contrast just right, (but that could be a firmware update), but it competes nicely for the investment, and I really think this is the crux of the issue.

    I would like to know more about the D800 against the S2, as their sensors are closer in size.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    That is the crux of the issue. If it was not close the threads here and everywhere would not continue as they do. This is really the bottom line there damn close and with that a lot of folks are scratching there heads over it. Honestly you can't blame them. My Iq 140 on a tech cam with a amazing 28mm beat the D800 in the detail dept. but it was not a stomper either. It was a tight race. More the issue with the D800 is getting everything else correct , forget the resolution that really is not something to sweat over but extra post and getting things under control and more importantly getting the Nikon to emulate MF capture is really where the work is. The Nikons need a firmware update and/or better profiling needs to be done. This will come in time just like the S2 took a little time. I view this as very normal progression in development .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I seriously doubt that the "casual reader" could tell the difference between a 22 meg 5D-III and a D800 either. Or even my 4 year old Sony A900. Probably not even a D700 either. If casual reader is the criteria, then all bets are off and almost anything above 12 to 18 meg is a waste of money, and we all could have stuck with cameras from 2 generations ago and saved a boat load of money and a lot of time discussing all this ... unless we actually see the difference in creative look and feel ourselves, and shoot to that criteria.

    As to the S2, IMO the reason that camera exists is as a box to put the Leica S lenses on for that specific look and feel. As a dual shutter camera it is a very flexible tool that allows high speed sync one shot and focal plane to 1/4000th the next with a flip of the switch. I like that for portrait work with the H lenses on the S2 where I can be selective as to which optic ... usually the 100/2.2. It is a nice camera, I like it ... a little bit 35mm and a little bit MFD.

    The S2 sensor performs pretty close to the H4D/40 if just evaluating the sensor alone ... at least it did when I tested the two in a controlled environment. Leica has since improved profiles and is now a snap to get right in post. Unfortunately, I no longer have a H4D/40 ... now that I have the H to S adapter, I could have tested both cameras with the same lenses just to look at some narrow criteria regarding the sensors, and how Leica's secret sauce compared to Hasselblad's out of the camera. That would've been interesting.

    For the MFD look and feel, the H4D/60 has more of it than the S2 ... but those darned S lenses are hard to beat when that's the look you want.

    To each his own.

    -Marc

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    All I know is that if I browse through my images of the last 2 years, that there is a much higher percentage of good rated images coming from my S2 system, then is coming from other cameras I own-for my personal taste.

    I guess it is not just about how good IQ a system can thaoretically produce, it is also how good a photographer gets along with a certain system (viewfinder, user interface, focus, lens options, haptics).

    What I find confusing is this "allmost as good as" comparisons.
    Where the LX7 is allmost as good as the RX100 as the OMD as the Nex7 as the X-Pro1 as the D800 as the S2 as the IQ180.
    And the Nikon glass is allmost as good as the Zeiss which is nearly as good as the Leica(or was it the other way around?).
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    sure, I'll agree with that ... but I wouldn't label it "the end of medium format superiority" ...
    Nor would I. More like the end of the huge gulf between the two.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I think the big problem for the MF makers will be to get new customers. Existing are probably satisfied, many come from using MF film or LF film previously and to that it was a real upgrade in flexibility.
    This is actually what worries me. I don't have a medium format tech cam, but I would like to see them continue to improve and come down in price. I believe they're are the ideal tool for much of the work that I do.

    But the medium format world suffers from terrible economies of scale. $40,000 for a camera back? Really? Take a step back from that, reminding yourself that it's not for a NASA launch, and things seem a little off-kilter. There's nothing like that it I can think of in the whole history of the medium, save for very, very specialized equipment.

    I don't think Phase and Leaf are ripping anyone off, I think they're forced to distribute their R&D costs among a very small user base.

    My d800 was subsidized by thousands of hobbyists and compulsive spenders. Thank you, goofballs of the photo world! But this group probably wasn't much help to you MFDB users. You guys have had to shoulder it on your own.

    I worry about new dslrs like the d800 cutting into that user base and making the situation worse. How many backs does Phase sell in a year? My guess is losing a few hundred sales could have an impact on their price and their r&d budget.

    I want to see the new dslrs do well because of their advancements, not because their higher competition succumbs to market pressures.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    The casual reader is certainly a discerning market, but these comparisons are not between 35mm dslr's, but if fact, how close you can get now when comparing the D800 to MFD. It's a great price point with fantastic image quality, it's not going to replace MFD. In certain situations, you can sometimes make more money with the D800, when compared to rolling the cost into the invoice for each camera. There are certain applications when MF is a must, certain DOF or mood, but for that i almost always shoot film!

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    .005 but we still love ya. Lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    All I know is that if I browse through my images of the last 2 years, that there is a much higher percentage of good rated images coming from my S2 system, then is coming from other cameras I own-for my personal taste.

    I guess it is not just about how good IQ a system can thaoretically produce, it is also how good a photographer gets along with a certain system (viewfinder, user interface, focus, lens options, haptics).

    What I find confusing is this "allmost as good as" comparisons.
    Where the LX7 is allmost as good as the RX100 as the OMD as the Nex7 as the X-Pro1 as the D800 as the S2 as the IQ180.
    And the Nikon glass is allmost as good as the Zeiss which is nearly as good as the Leica(or was it the other way around?).
    The issue here is the hobbyist and if your planning on 40k outlay and you can get it in 10 percent of that and be close than hell they may get a second hobby. You need to realize people drop hobbys like water. The Pro has no choice they have to buy something but as a hobbyist I can save 30k and be close enough well that 30 I can turn to another hobby or buy a new car. Simply not forced into buying at the top rate. There fickle and well do things different.

    Obviously exceptions here but even you guys are a minority . They make 30k D800 a month.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    That is the crux of the issue. If it was not close the threads here and everywhere would not continue as they do. This is really the bottom line there damn close and with that a lot of folks are scratching there heads over it. Honestly you can't blame them. My Iq 140 on a tech cam with a amazing 28mm beat the D800 in the detail dept. but it was not a stomper either. It was a tight race. More the issue with the D800 is getting everything else correct , forget the resolution that really is not something to sweat over but extra post and getting things under control and more importantly getting the Nikon to emulate MF capture is really where the work is. The Nikons need a firmware update and/or better profiling needs to be done. This will come in time just like the S2 took a little time. I view this as very normal progression in development .
    Guy's thoughts expresssed (in the above paragraph) in my opinion is very much the crux of the matter when considering just how close the D800/e comes to emulating MFD, especially at 40MP. In many aspects, one can come awful close but it takes considerably more work, time and thought into the whole process when working with the D800/e, not to mention extremely careful choice of optics. The MFD can get you there, often times with considerably more room to spare along with a bit more leeway and if you push it properly and with careful consideration in ones choice of optics, it will then generally show "its chops" and provide one with an image that will often times distiguish itself as a whole when compared to a similar image taken with the D800/e.

    Many times though how much of a difference will be observed, will very much depend on the image and subject matter. All great tools and most certainly there is overlap where results from each will be close and therefore comparison becomes much more difficult. With that said, there are though areas of relative of strength that both cameras posess, and therefore often times use of one camera over the other can be justified.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    What I find confusing is this "allmost as good as" comparisons.
    Where the LX7 is allmost as good as the RX100 as the OMD as the Nex7 as the X-Pro1 as the D800 as the S2 as the IQ180.
    And the Nikon glass is allmost as good as the Zeiss which is nearly as good as the Leica(or was it the other way around?).
    A lot of things are almost as good as things that costs a little more or even double. It's a different calculus when something is almost as good as something that costs 10 times as much.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    The more things change, the more they remain the same. From Luminous Landscape by MR:

    It's not uncommon to read people online who say that medium format is dead. That full-frame 35mm DSLRs like the Canon 1Ds MKII sound their death knell.

    Nonsense.
    This of course was a field review of the Phase P25 back and a comment of the release of that new Canon camera. Apparently, MFD is going through a rather long and drawn out death with no end in sight as this was written in the winter of 2004/05. Oddly enough, it came five years after predictions that film would only be around for five more years--I wonder how that panned out?

    I know I am deluded in even thinking that the size of my sensor actually makes a difference, but I am happy to cling to that delusion. And in the end, I only have to please myself.
    Last edited by Shashin; 14th August 2012 at 09:40.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    "Medium format death" is unlikely. Doing like Sinar does, making tethered-only backs from standard sensors (very same sensors used for medical and scientific applications) you can do with relatively low development costs, and selling them for $40K you don't need to sell many of them.

    If the MF market also in the future will be large enough to develop more complex and innovative products is a different manner.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The more things change, the more they remain the same. From Luminous Landscape by MR:



    This of course was a field review of the Phase P25 back and a comment of the release of that new Canon camera. Apparently, MFD is going through a rather long and drawn out death with no end in sight as this was written in the winter of 2004/05. Oddly enough, it came five years after predictions that film would only be around for five more years--I wonder how that panned out?

    I know I am deluded in even thinking that the size of my sensor actually makes a difference, but I am happy to cling to that delusion. And in the end, I only have to please myself.
    I think though it comes down to so many personal factors, so that no matter how long this comparison is dissected, the answer will lie for the end user in terms of what their expectations are and how much they are willing to work at achieving them. In other words, how high they set the bar and to what lengths they are willing to both spend and then technically master their equipment. These and other factors will go a long way in determining whether cameras like the D800/e are both good and close enough to MFD, or whether the fators that attract those to MFD are worth persuing.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Dave, I will go one step further and say the comparison does not even matter. You get the camera you think is right for you--all the other cameras in the world don't make any difference at that point. I don't buy a camera/format because it is like another camera/format I would rather have.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    The casual reader is certainly a discerning market, but these comparisons are not between 35mm dslr's, but if fact, how close you can get now when comparing the D800 to MFD. It's a great price point with fantastic image quality, it's not going to replace MFD. In certain situations, you can sometimes make more money with the D800, when compared to rolling the cost into the invoice for each camera. There are certain applications when MF is a must, certain DOF or mood, but for that i almost always shoot film!
    While we have had out disagreements I'd tend to agree with this ... except the film part since my clients will not wait, nor pay for scans.

    I've been a bit off-putting in some cases because I'm currently using an H4D/60 and a S2 ... which can, and does come off as elitist .... which isn't the intent. I worked my rear off and walked my way there over many years.

    So, please bear with me ...

    The good fortune I experienced was to be getting into MFD at a time when commercial work was transitioning from film to digital, and the economy was still booming. I didn't pay a red cent for my first MFD kits, from a Contax 645 with a Kodak Proback onward ... clients did. Made possible because everyone did the same thing then.

    Every invoice carried a digital capture/rental fee that paid for everything with-in 2 years or so ... fees clients paid because it was a LOT cheaper than film/processing/scanning costs, and expensive reshoots virtually disappeared. Then I upgraded, and the fees stayed. Very few of these jobs could be done with 35mm as it was then, trust me I tried.

    Basically, I could keep upgrading bodies and the optics were paid for already. So I've never paid 10X as much to shoot MFD ... ever. In fact, for a few years, the MFD fees generated additional profit.

    In contrast, my wedding work was/is mostly 35mm DSLRs and there's no way to amortize that cost with the general public. You have to bake it into the fee, and that whole competitive aspect makes it hard to keep upgrading, since someone with a lesser camera can underbid you ... all things being equal in the eyes of that specific consuming audience. I can win as much business with a paid for A900 as I can with a D800.

    Along the way, I became accustomed to all of the qualities of MFD which are different than those of 35mm ... in the same way that my good old Proback or 16 meg CFV delivered more to my eye than a 16 meg DSLR, or my H2D/22 did compared to a 22 meg DSLR. It is those difference that I still see, still want in my work, and see nothing challenging that proclivity.

    HOWEVER, were I starting, out or fighting it out in this insanely competitive environment where some will under-bid you no matter what the heck you do, or clients are willing to settle for "almost" out of penny pinching bean counter mentality ... the Nikon D800 makes a whole load of sense. Excellent quality without high exposure to costs at a time when you often can't bake in those costs.

    Fortunately, I'm in a place in my life that I'm not having to make those decisions ... but I understand those that do.

    -Marc
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I think though it comes down to so many personal factors, so that no matter how long this comparison is dissected, the answer will lie for the end user in terms of what their expectations are and how much they are willing to work at achieving them. In other words, how high they set the bar and to what lengths they are willing to both spend and then technically master their equipment. These and other factors will go a long way in determining whether cameras like the D800/e are both good and close enough to MFD, or whether the fators that attract those to MFD are worth persuing.

    Dave (D&A)
    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Dave, I will go one step further and say the comparison does not even matter. You get the camera you think is right for you--all the other cameras in the world don't make any difference at that point. I don't buy a camera/format because it is like another camera/format I would rather have.
    Also don't even think of buying a camera just because someone else has it and you think it'll make you a better photographer.
    Don Libby
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    "Medium format death" is unlikely. Doing like Sinar does, making tethered-only backs from standard sensors (very same sensors used for medical and scientific applications) you can do with relatively low development costs, and selling them for $40K you don't need to sell many of them.
    But you do have to sell them. Price is a balance.

    If the MF market also in the future will be large enough to develop more complex and innovative products is a different manner.
    I was just pointing out we keep having this debate that one format is just like another and so the larger one will fail, and yet the larger one keeps going. This conversation keeps returning because whatever the single spec used to justify the comparison ultimately fails as a photographic system does not rest on one specification (usually the number of dots in the picture). The annoying fact that you cannot optimize resolution and contrast at the same time is usually where format equivalency will fail. Also, and I may be the only one here that thinks this, the number of pixels a sensor has is not the primary determining factor on how pleasing an image looks.

    So here we are again talking about the same stuff we talked about before and it will end up the same way of realizing it is not true until the next time a similar situation occurs that will start the whole debate off one more time.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The issue here is the hobbyist and if your planning on 40k outlay and you can get it in 10 percent of that and be close than hell they may get a second hobby. You need to realize people drop hobbys like water. The Pro has no choice they have to buy something but as a hobbyist I can save 30k and be close enough well that 30 I can turn to another hobby or buy a new car. Simply not forced into buying at the top rate. There fickle and well do things different.

    Obviously exceptions here but even you guys are a minority . They make 30k D800 a month.
    But arent the bohhyist are the guys who pay 100k for a car, or 20+k for speakers, etc. because they dont have to base the decision based mainly on economic factors?

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    A lot of things are almost as good as things that costs a little more or even double. It's a different calculus when something is almost as good as something that costs 10 times as much.
    I just believe life is not just about cost-ratio optimization.

    Otherwise we would probably all have to buy used gear from the previous generation cameras.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If that's true, then why do you need a 36 meg 35mm DSLR?

    -Marc
    I am already starting to ask me this question

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