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Thread: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    But arent the bohhyist are the guys who pay 100k for a car, or 20+k for speakers, etc. because they dont have to base the decision based mainly on economic factors?
    The problem is that percent of high end money for hobby is still in a minority. Also they can and will sell out on a whim very fast. People hear are very much a minority on high end gear compared to the percent of product being produced. Honestly your just slightly above us maybe 1 or 2 percent of Pros who don't even make a mark in the industry. Numbers like 30k per month for just one name,model is just scary.Most hobbyist don't even read, pay attention too or even care. They walk into a Best Buy and buy on price, feature set that some kid is going to sell them. The market is maybe 97 percent soccer moms, if you know what I mean.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    BTw folks nice discussion and I know any and every make and model in the industry has claimed to be close to MF in the past . Frankly I think that was all BS in years past. This one is actually pretty close. I'm a huge MF fan too but this one picked my nose up off the turf. LOL
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    So here we are again talking about the same stuff we talked about before and it will end up the same way of realizing it is not true until the next time a similar situation occurs that will start the whole debate off one more time.
    Yes indeed

    Maybe this is not the time. We'll see. Maybe the gap haven't really become smaller than previous rounds, but rather that the absolute quality level is now considerably higher. The higher it gets the more say "good enough".

    What I personally hope will happen is that the MF manufacturers are put under some pressure so they are forced to come up with a way to sell MFDBs at lower costs. I rather see that than a 54x41mm CMOS sensor (although that would be cool too). I'm not sure if it is possible though, but I do think that we could have a pretty large tech camera hobbyist group doing landscape if it is. If MF was only 2x more expensive it would be much easier to justify subtle arguments like "I like 4:3 better than 3:2", and "mechanical copal shutters are kind of cool"

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTw folks nice discussion and I know any and every make and model in the industry has claimed to be close to MF in the past . Frankly I think that was all BS in years past. This one is actually pretty close. I'm a huge MF fan too but this one picked my nose up off the turf. LOL
    It's close IF MF makers do not come up with a newer model or fail to utilize some of the new technology that's out there (and I'm thinking the kind of senor used in Fuji X-Pro1). If things go as they have in years past, then there will be an improvement in MF. If there isn't, then the economics of the marketplace will probably finish MF.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Not sure about finishing it as many institutions outside of the Pro and Hobbyist exist like libraries and government are a big part of the MF market too which we need to understand but again they do need to reinvent themseleves as well. Its not just the costs either its the whole dynamics of it. I can tell you what someone said to me in the industry directly and he is dead on. Nothing is made in the 10K range that he could not fill a zillion orders on.
    Everyones wants MF or the quality of MF that is not the issue its the cost of entry that puts a Nikon smack in the middle of the fence as a tipping point. The last line is from me. i think that is truly the crux of the matter.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Not that this kind of comparison is not useful, but it becomes matterless when the camera/image quality segment has grown much faster than the media that requires them, so we are talking about existing prosumer tools already capable of making quality of pro tools just a few years ago, so many professional are in fact residing on what works for them rather than continue to ride on the best.
    Sure, there are always need of better tools and it won't stop and probably the medium format digital will always be better but then the margin over FF DLSR is smaller and smaller, to a point it really demands capable hands to make meaningful difference.
    In fact, we are in a time with tools (even some of the prosumer ones) with quality far beyond the masters of the past have or even dream.
    Photographic artwork collected by museums seldom just focus on absolute sharpness or demand the very best lens to product such art - says we do have a breathe of room doing whatever we have today.
    But then, photography is not just the file, it is also the process making it, so the tool does matter, just that if the best tool and best work are related? Not really.
    The reality is D800E could probably do 90% of the photography jobs in the world while H4D40 could do only 15% - and some of the best pay jobs are done by FF DLSR. I know only very few photographers who only shoot medium format, most of the pros have a Canon or Nikon besides them.
    They are different. It is a threat from FF DLSR to medium format digital camera, not the other way around.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I just think the 35mm shooters are relieved. With Sony making 24MP APS sensors rivaling 35mm cameras, the 35mm crowd had to increase resolution by 25% and go to 37MP just to stay relevant. With the new crop of APS cameras with their pixel resolution and price, it is getting hard to justify the cost of 35mm.




    Last edited by Shashin; 14th August 2012 at 15:46.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    If so, in less than 10 years time, smart-phones will be everything in photography for amateurs and P&S's will be used for all kind of professional assignments, including fine-art and hi-roller fashion and product.
    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I just think the 35mm shooters are relieved. With Sony making 24MP APS sensors rivaling 35mm cameras, the 35mm crowd had to increase resolution by 25% and go to 37MP just to stay relevant. With the new crop of APS cameras with their pixel resolution and price, it is getting hard to justify the cost of 35mm.





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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    If so, in less than 10 years time, smart-phones will be everything in photography for amateurs and P&S's will be used for all kind of professional assignments, including fine-art and hi-roller fashion and product.
    Eduardo
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    If so, in less than 10 years time, smart-phones will be everything in photography for amateurs and P&S's will be used for all kind of professional assignments, including fine-art and hi-roller fashion and product.
    Eduardo
    If we look at the development the last 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if Nikon 1 will be Nikon's main system in another 10, while 35mm and similarly sized formats will take the role that MF has had until now.

    It's now 10 years since the firs 35mm DSLR, the Contax N Digital, became available with 6MP. The D800 has 6 times the number of pixels and is in another universe when it comes to high ISO, frame rates, general usability etc. If the development continues at the same speed, we'll have a 60MP Nikon 1 and a 220MP Nikon D900 in 2022, and they'll probably not be more expensive than the current 10 and 36MP models. Obviously, they will have features that we can't even dream about today.

    Hasselblad, Phase1 etc. will have to do something far more radical than increasing the number of pixels and general image quality to survive that trend.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The D800 has 6 times the number of pixels...
    That sounds impressive, but it is only a 2.5X increase in resolving power and right now that is only 100 lines per mm for the D800. Not really a challenging limit considering many films could exceed that--not interested in a film/digital thing or which is better, but just to point out we have not really pushed the technology in what has been achieved in the past.

    ...If the development continues at the same speed, we'll have a 60MP Nikon 1 and a 220MP Nikon D900 in 2022...
    You know, there is nothing we can do to change that fact light is a wave. To extrapolate in a linear fashion assumes that pixel size can be reduced to an unlimited extent without any effect is not possible. Optics will never be able to keep up either--technology cannot change this because of the physical limitation to light. While I don't mind optics-limited systems except for the inefficient use of file size, pixel peepers are going to be driven nuts.

    Digital is new and growing. But sooner or later it will reach a wall.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    That sounds impressive, but it is only a 2.5X increase in resolving power and right now that is only 100 lines per mm for the D800. Not really a challenging limit considering many films could exceed that--not interested in a film/digital thing or which is better, but just to point out we have not really pushed the technology in what has been achieved in the past.
    I know, but still people on this forum are discussing the D800/E as if it were the "Second Coming".

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You know, there is nothing we can do to change that fact light is a wave. To extrapolate in a linear fashion assumes that pixel size can be reduced to an unlimited extent without any effect is not possible. Optics will never be able to keep up either--technology cannot change this because of the physical limitation to light. While I don't mind optics-limited systems except for the inefficient use of file size, pixel peepers are going to be driven nuts.

    Digital is new and growing. But sooner or later it will reach a wall.
    They said that about flying also.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    They said that about flying also.
    Well, flying is possible and has known to be possible before the invention of aircraft--Leonardo De Vinci even theorized about it. And there are limit to altitude and speed in flight. And it gets harder and harder to reach those limits. I really am unsure of your point.

    Now, I do a lot of optical microscopy. There is a definite limit to what you can image under an optical microscope--which is the reason we also have atomic force microscopes and electron microscopes. There is a type of optical microscopy that is looking into nano-imaging. This is the field that is trying to push the boundaries of the limits of optical microscopy, however, the results as far from what you would expect from the photography that folks think of here. Those are also closed system that would be impossible to scale up as the phase properties of light cannot be used in a simple camera.

    You may think that you can have an infinitely small pixel, but then what records the light? No photon strike, no information.

    You also may think the optics can have unlimited resolution, but how do you get away from the effects of diffraction? The problem of eliminating diffraction from a camera lens is that without diffraction, you cannot get an image (images are diffraction patterns).

    While it is great to see enthusiasm for technology, it is also important to realize we live in a physical universe that has definite limits. Especially with basic things as light--light has been one of the most studied phenomena and it will take more than a camera company to figure out how to change it. While advances in some very specialized imaging such as recording the motion of light or turning apparently opaque surfaces into clear or reflective surfaces seem revolutionary, and they are stunning, they are hardly changing our view of how light works. Rather we are simply getting better tools to solve these problems.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, flying is possible and has known to be possible before the invention of aircraft--Leonardo De Vinci even theorized about it. And there are limit to altitude and speed in flight. And it gets harder and harder to reach those limits. I really am unsure of your point.

    Now, I do a lot of optical microscopy. There is a definite limit to what you can image under an optical microscope--which is the reason we also have atomic force microscopes and electron microscopes. There is a type of optical microscopy that is looking into nano-imaging. This is the field that is trying to push the boundaries of the limits of optical microscopy, however, the results as far from what you would expect from the photography that folks think of here. Those are also closed system that would be impossible to scale up as the phase properties of light cannot be used in a simple camera.

    You may think that you can have an infinitely small pixel, but then what records the light? No photon strike, no information.

    You also may think the optics can have unlimited resolution, but how do you get away from the effects of diffraction? The problem of eliminating diffraction from a camera lens is that without diffraction, you cannot get an image (images are diffraction patterns).

    While it is great to see enthusiasm for technology, it is also important to realize we live in a physical universe that has definite limits. Especially with basic things as light--light has been one of the most studied phenomena and it will take more than a camera company to figure out how to change it. While advances in some very specialized imaging such as recording the motion of light or turning apparently opaque surfaces into clear or reflective surfaces seem revolutionary, and they are stunning, they are hardly changing our view of how light works. Rather we are simply getting better tools to solve these problems.
    This is all correct, but through history, humans have always found ways around physical barriers if the need or greed is sufficient, hence atomic force and electron microscopes. Many of the things we take for granted, and use routinely today, didn't even exist in science fiction 50 years ago. Somehow, the fantasy of most humans seems to be inferior to what is achievable in the real world.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Great discussion (really, it has been)... but it makes my decision to shoot film for a few months all the more comforting.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well Wayne,

    if this is the case, you are probably not the right user for the D800E and I would really consider selling this "bad" camera and further enjoy you tech cam.

    A final word to print sizes - I cannot get any longer impressed by these numbers being thrown around when it comes to how big you can print, since I have seen stunning results from 10MP cameras printed 3x2m (how much is that in inch?).

    And WRT to comparing - it is 40MP against 36MP, so it is not so odd as comparing 80MP to 36MP - right?
    lets not read things into that are not intended, and were not stated. I only offered a different perspective ... I assume you might agree not everyone is like you? Your post basically stated that something about the d800 gave you more opportunities to create more images, and I stated I didn't find that to be true in my case.

    I certainly understand their are many shooting styles and end goals when creating images, and for many a dSLR fits them much better. But that doesn't mean everyone should fit that mold, does it? So I simply offered a different point of view coming from a long time MF shooter ... both film and digital since the first 16mp Kodak DCS back.

    I never said the d800 was a "bad" camera. I just stated I struggle getting what I want out of the files (I'm not alone in that) and I haven't found any opportunities as of yet to choose using it in place of the DF/IQ180 (and that's not a tech camera, tried that and until they get good LiveView I won't try it again). That doesn't make it bad ... but if both are ready to go, then the reason I would take the Nikon is it offered me something that I needed and couldn't get out of the MF. There are many circumstances I can think of (ISO, telephoto reach, macro, Live view focusing, exposures over 45 seconds are a few reasons the Nikon would be prefered). Shooting more images isn't a reason, since I"ll probably create about the same number of images no matter which system I'm using. The Nikon isn't "faster" for me to use.

    If I find myself only rarely doing so it doesn't make much sense to keep the system. In those circumstances the NEX delivers pretty dang good results and actually accomplishes a goal the Nikon really doesn't although ... small and light. As I said my Nikon bag is only 3 lbs lighter than my PhaseOne DF bag. My NEX bag however, even with the Zeiss primes is substantially lighter.

    As far as your statement that you saw "one" large print that managed to look "OK" from a 10 mp camera so printing large isn't worth putting in the discussion ... I'm not really sure what to say to that. I print hundreds of images each month through my store and I have seen hundreds of customers try to stretch their poor resolution images to well past the breaking point. (I also have hundreds of images from lower res cameras myself). A rare image can really go a long way .. usually because it has no real detail to speak of. But the difference between a 40x60 from a d800 and a 60 or 80mp digital back is readily apparent in a vast majority of images. That doesn't make the d800 prints bad, they just aren't as clean. Go to 90" and even the IQ180 images struggle to look "clean" and not digital.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Great discussion (really, it has been)... but it makes my decision to shoot film for a few months all the more comforting.
    I'm thinking of buying a Fuji617 system and shoot some film as well ... I'd like to experience something unique like that.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    I'm thinking of buying a Fuji617 system and shoot some film as well ... I'd like to experience something unique like that.
    Wayne - that's so ironic. I actually bought a Fuji G617 yesterday myself!
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Hi !

    Here my 2 euro cents !

    I've received my D800E, just have to say that the lenses I had are useless : Nikkor D , was nice lenses, but for D800E, so bad. I bought the 85 1.8 G. Not so bad, but, the photos from my old H3D31 are far better (IQ speaking). You can't compare a H4D50 with a D800E.

    Now, I don't regret my purchase, because, those two cameras are complementary : Hassy is wonderful for High IQ photos, landscape and every time I need to focus only on photos.

    But D800E is fast, light and allows to take more natural photos.

    But, I'm very interested to know what lenses I need to buy to get better results with my D800E.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The problem is that percent of high end money for hobby is still in a minority. Also they can and will sell out on a whim very fast. People hear are very much a minority on high end gear compared to the percent of product being produced. Honestly your just slightly above us maybe 1 or 2 percent of Pros who don't even make a mark in the industry. Numbers like 30k per month for just one name,model is just scary.Most hobbyist don't even read, pay attention too or even care. They walk into a Best Buy and buy on price, feature set that some kid is going to sell them. The market is maybe 97 percent soccer moms, if you know what I mean.
    I think there are more people tha we believe - however just a minority posting in the internet about this. Look how few S2 owners post over here and we know that there were several thousands sold.

    Besides the rich hobby-guys I think there are some photographer who do not want to compete in the low/medium price battle of photographers and which do have a very high quality approach. Of course it is all about skills, but if gear helps to additionally impress customers than it is welcome.
    If those people spend 25k for upgrading to a newer digital back which they can use for 24-36 months (the lenses even longer) than I would think the additional cost might not be the problem.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It's now 10 years since the firs 35mm DSLR, the Contax N Digital, became available with 6MP. The D800 has 6 times the number of pixels and is in another universe when it comes to high ISO, frame rates, general usability etc. If the development continues at the same speed, we'll have a 60MP Nikon 1 and a 220MP Nikon D900 in 2022, and they'll probably not be more expensive than the current 10 and 36MP models. Obviously, they will have features that we can't even dream about today.

    Hasselblad, Phase1 etc. will have to do something far more radical than increasing the number of pixels and general image quality to survive that trend.
    To follow this theory and to put things into perspective....in the same 10 years we went from tethered-only (no LCD) 11MP to fully portable 80MP which is also more than twice the physical size so if we stick to your prediction in 10 years we'll have 560MP which probably won't be more expensive than the current 80MP and will have features that even we cannot dream about today...

    Just sayin'...
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    The biggest problem is not the camera and sensor or the photographer, the limitation is the entire printing industries can't deliver all the pixels we produce or the resolution of screen - even the retina display, has met what human eyes can best resolve and barely able to show the full image.
    In this case, the continue development of course will not stop, because the flexibility to allow creative crop will increase, but then the dependence of high-end gear will eventually reduce because the media at the consumer end has more and more, and more options.
    I love shooting stills and over the years have enjoying shooting with all the fun gears but I am also not optimized that the traditional capture will last forever as main stream production, they will probably never be totally replaced as LP, but shooting 5-8K 60-120fps day will come - in a handheld package perhaps with 5-stops IS and produce beautiful ISO 6400 files, cost not much more than 1DX or the H4D40.
    All that does not mean the definition of quality changed, the old file I made with my P25 still look very good today, and I am certain the file from my P65+ and IQ180 will still be regarded very good 10 years later, but we are not in a world of only photographers, we are in a world of consumer that absolute best does not always matter, state of the art matters more.

    BR,
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    I think there is a limit to how much resolution people care to have, and that we are close to that now. The problem for MF is that it may turn out that 135 DSLRs also can reach that limit. Is the D800 there? I don't know.

    Full RGB pixels, non-linear response to drastically increase full-well capacity, less color cast issues I think is much more attractive features that increasing past 80 megapixels. It is harder to achieve though.

    If we do start to see sensors with non-linear response (I have some vague memory that I've seen a sony patent) it may be possible to gather lots of photons in very small pixels, which means that we can get much higher image quality out of smaller sensors. Then it is about optics, I don't know how sharp optics can be made, but my feeling is that we are already pushing the limits of current lens manufacturing technology. Even if sensors develop we may be forced to stay with larger systems if optics cannot be made sharp enough for smaller sizes.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    To follow this theory and to put things into perspective....in the same 10 years we went from tethered-only (no LCD) 11MP to fully portable 80MP which is also more than twice the physical size so if we stick to your prediction in 10 years we'll have 560MP which probably won't be more expensive than the current 80MP and will have features that even we cannot dream about today...

    Just sayin'...
    In both cases, the potential resolution will be more than almost any photographer will find useful. So to stay competitive, MF manufacturers need to find other improvement areas.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pingang View Post
    The biggest problem is not the camera and sensor or the photographer, the limitation is the entire printing industries can't deliver all the pixels we produce or the resolution of screen - even the retina display, has met what human eyes can best resolve and barely able to show the full image.
    In this case, the continue development of course will not stop, because the flexibility to allow creative crop will increase, but then the dependence of high-end gear will eventually reduce because the media at the consumer end has more and more, and more options.
    I love shooting stills and over the years have enjoying shooting with all the fun gears but I am also not optimized that the traditional capture will last forever as main stream production, they will probably never be totally replaced as LP, but shooting 5-8K 60-120fps day will come - in a handheld package perhaps with 5-stops IS and produce beautiful ISO 6400 files, cost not much more than 1DX or the H4D40.
    All that does not mean the definition of quality changed, the old file I made with my P25 still look very good today, and I am certain the file from my P65+ and IQ180 will still be regarded very good 10 years later, but we are not in a world of only photographers, we are in a world of consumer that absolute best does not always matter, state of the art matters more.

    BR,
    Pingang
    Yep, we live in a technocratic society that will only get more involved with the most recent specs of gadgets as opposed to their actual application, and an appreciation of those who master them to actually say something.

    However, technology never seems to be a replacement for human creativity and sensitivity. 12fps has just never quite replaced the well seen, well timed still shot. Neither has 30 fps. The human psyche still has the capacity to be moved by the well seen, and well timed image. Shooting an amazing sunset at 120fps doesn't mitigate the act of choosing the one frame that says it all ... it just increases the burden of choice. In fact, it endangers the ability to select by pounding the senses into oatmeal.

    The more practical aspects of "common" photographic capture may be under assault by encroaching auto-tecno-revolutions, yet there still exists many applications that benefit from lesser known existing technologies that require craftsmanship ... craftsmanship that affect the masses of viewers without them even knowing. They may subscribe it to technology because they want to believe anything is possible by anyone ... but it isn't, and never has been.

    -Marc

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    In both cases, the potential resolution will be more than almost any photographer will find useful. So to stay competitive, MF manufacturers need to find other improvement areas.
    Make it the price please

    I think MF lenses and body prices are quite understandable, but I have never figured out why the digital backs must be so super-expensive. I know the sensors are expensive due to their large size, but a $4000 sensor makes it into a $40K digital back? Why must the rest cost $36K? It seems to me that the margin on backs is much much higher than margin on other MF gear.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Make it the price please

    I think MF lenses and body prices are quite understandable, but I have never figured out why the digital backs must be so super-expensive. I know the sensors are expensive due to their large size, but a $4000 sensor makes it into a $40K digital back? Why must the rest cost $36K? It seems to me that the margin on backs is much much higher than margin on other MF gear.
    True, back prices seem crazy.

    But so does the persistent quote of $40,000. I wonder how many have actually paid that much? I'm sure some have to be on the cusp for a few months or a year, and maybe so do institutions ... but really, $40K is the benchmark price?

    A Hasselblad H4D starts at $12K for camera and back BEFORE working a deal with a reseller, $15K with a 35-90 before dealing. The CFV/50 is now $14K and prices for V camera gear is shamefully low. The biggest baddest Hasselblad specialty back on the planet including the camera body, the H4D/200 is $35K before any wrangling ... and LOT less if you have some decrepit old DB to trade in which can be had on e-bay for $2500.

    Not to mention $10K for a Pentax 645.

    Now, if you do not subscribe to the difference in the look and feel of MFD at any resolution, then it is all outrageous.

    -Marc

    BTW, I'm all for low prices and as low as they can go while still allowing the companies to stay in business.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Reality is more like 30k or less as maybe a good average. Really only 1 or 2 backs that would cost more at check writing time. No one pays list.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Bottom line is you wont see radical cost changes this Photokinia is my call nor will we see anything announced in that 10k range new with some bite to it. My prediction.


    Side bar. First time in 36 years a package from B&H is lost in the UPS black hole system. Still stuck in NY and not in my hands. I requested a reissue of my order to be overnighted to me. Let's see how they respond to this one. LOL

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Reality is more like 30k or less as maybe a good average. Really only 1 or 2 backs that would cost more at check writing time. No one pays list.
    And if having a DB for a tech camera is the most important criterion, rather than, say, MP or sensor size, then you can get in for significantly less and stay newest generation.

    Nevertheless, I would love for MFDB prices to drop, even if I took a beating on my initial "investment". Camera equipment (at least the electronics bits) is not an investment.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    And your I Q 140 still is better than the D800 trust me been there done that test. Retire tomorrow my 2 kits would be a tech cam , 4 lenses and a M9 kit with 4 lenses. To me that would be my retirement package. Not sure who the hell is giving it to me, guess I still have to work for it. Lol
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Guy,

    The competition was the big Aptus or the IQ160. Now if someone wanted to make a scaled down tech camera kit based on the D800E sensor - something about 4.5" on a side. THAT would be interesting. God knows what lenses would work, although the Canon 17 TS would be a start. But I'm drifting .

    --Matt

    (Yes, I know - a 5DIII and a 17 TS lens would do the job. I just want to get rid of the mirror box, too.)
    Last edited by MGrayson; 15th August 2012 at 09:46.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    This is all correct, but through history, humans have always found ways around physical barriers if the need or greed is sufficient, hence atomic force and electron microscopes. Many of the things we take for granted, and use routinely today, didn't even exist in science fiction 50 years ago. Somehow, the fantasy of most humans seems to be inferior to what is achievable in the real world.
    The problem here is that atomic force microscopes and electron microscopes do not violate known physical laws, but a recognition that light is limited as a carrier of information at small scales. What I am talking about is not simply inadequacy in relation to technology, but rather problems directly related to the physical universe. Exceeding the speed of light is simply not a problem of making engines powerful enough. If you pass light through an aperture, it will diffract. In order to record light, you must intersect it and you must intersect enough of it. These are not merely limits to the state of technology.

    As far as science fiction goes, and the operative work is fiction, the secret to that is it is not a predictor of the future, but an extrapolation of known technology of the day. The warp drive was a device to make a TV show interesting because travel at light speed would have made the show longer than most people would want to watch, but the limits to the speed of light were known. All the technological advancements made in imaging has not changed the fundamental behavior of light. Thinking light will suddenly change its behavior in a macro world because we want it to is kind of like commanding the tide not to come in.

    As far as the limits to human imagination, all of the technological developments you enjoy are the product of that imagination. I work with scientists who are doing things like imaging the change in states of atomic particles in diamonds. And doing this with light. It is funny that I work at the thresholds of what light can achieve and and see problems with your optimism with your extrapolation of photographic technology, but folks that don't even work with this stuff think that it is simply a problem of a lack of imagination. I know a lot of people who would be interested if you actually have a solution to some of these problems, even the presumably simple one of diffraction. If you just you could just solve that, the world would be an entirely different place.
    Last edited by Shashin; 15th August 2012 at 07:56.
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    Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pingang View Post

    The biggest problem is not the camera and sensor or the photographer, the limitation is the entire printing industries can't deliver all the pixels we produce or the resolution of screen (...)

    + 1

    The presentation technology is far behind the capture technology.

    What I desperately need is not more capture resolution but more presentation resolution:

    - either a new and more affordable printing technology for printing big
    - or an ultra high resolution wall screen technology for presenting still photos with the captured details

    Printing all my keepers big gets too expensive as it is now.

    Yeah, I know I have said this before, but it cannot be said too often, can it
    Maybe the industry will at some point wake up and smell some new business potentials.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Unfortunately a lot of business was run by people who thought they know everything and always right that often turn out untrue.

    BR,
    Pingang

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    + 1

    The presentation technology is far behind the capture technology.

    What I desperately need is not more capture resolution but more presentation resolution:

    - either a new and more affordable printing technology for printing big
    - or an ultra high resolution wall screen technology for presenting still photos with the captured details

    Printing all my keepers big gets too expensive as it is now.

    Yeah, I know I have said this before, but it cannot be said too often, can it
    Maybe the industry will at some point wake up and smell some new business potentials.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    The pixel race is becoming pointless--no pun intended.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The pixel race is becoming pointless--no pun intended.
    I don't need any more pixels at the moment. What I wouldn't mind is another few stops of real usable DR with what we have today. I can slice and dice an IQ160 or D800 file pretty drastically and still have a very usable file with enough resolution for most any print size. However, blending for extreme exposures gets old after a while.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The pixel race is becoming pointless--no pun intended.
    sort of ... however, a massive increase in pixels designed strictly to be used with binning seems plausible. Say a 200 mp camera with a sensor designed to use 4 sensels per output pixel (all handled at the chip level) , RGB and density instead of current RGGB - resolution wise it's a 50mp camera but with less noise better dynamic range no aliasing/moire from demosaicing ...
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    To follow this theory and to put things into perspective....in the same 10 years we went from tethered-only (no LCD) 11MP to fully portable 80MP which is also more than twice the physical size so if we stick to your prediction in 10 years we'll have 560MP which probably won't be more expensive than the current 80MP and will have features that even we cannot dream about today...

    Just sayin'...
    Yair,

    I am imressed you are leaking the news of the 560MP so early. Will that one come with the sensor stabilization to ensure of perfect solid stability of the pixels also on a steady tripod? Likewise will have to assume it is the new rumored plasma back that auto adjusts the physical size/dimension of the back and sensor itself from sensor size 645 to 4x5 pending on camera that it is mounted on, and with back being only 5.8mm thick and less than 150g, including satelite transfer of files direct to home computer no matter where it is worldwidde! I love Leaf for innovation and also saving weight on my Hy6 system with it!! Rotating sensor and full sized tilting plasma display to physically adjust to camera mounted on, and of course also for the new made in Germany Hy6 ten year anniversary model...

    Just imagine the files with the future 4x5 image circle Digitar XXL lenses with the 560MP! WOW! Pixel binning of 18x18 pixel grids I assume for hand held shots to be steady, plus of course the sensor pixels layared same as ehh... Film??...

    With above, what is need for DSLR??

    Much thanks Leaf.........., bet you will offer an attractove upgrade from my 80MP back too, lovely! Please put me down for a serious preorder and have Gavin give me a call in ten years time !

    Best regards,
    Anders
    Last edited by Anders_HK; 15th August 2012 at 12:49.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    + 1

    The presentation technology is far behind the capture technology.

    What I desperately need is not more capture resolution but more presentation resolution:

    - either a new and more affordable printing technology for printing big
    - or an ultra high resolution wall screen technology for presenting still photos with the captured details

    Printing all my keepers big gets too expensive as it is now.

    Yeah, I know I have said this before, but it cannot be said too often, can it
    Maybe the industry will at some point wake up and smell some new business potentials.
    I'm all for the picture wall. Make that 4. Who needs Windows anyway?

    O Apple, Apple, wherefore art thou Apple

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Wayne - that's so ironic. I actually bought a Fuji G617 yesterday myself!
    sweet! That's the one with the fixed 105? I"m hoping to get the GX with a couple of other lenses ... saw a setup on ebay for about 12k with 3 lenses, prob a little more than I want to pay right now
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    sweet! That's the one with the fixed 105? I"m hoping to get the GX with a couple of other lenses ... saw a setup on ebay for about 12k with 3 lenses, prob a little more than I want to pay right now
    I snagged a low mileage example for $1600 from ebay which wasn't too outrageous and from a known seller here in Portland. Only fixed 105 as you say but for what I want it'll do and if I decide to get more serious then there's always the GX or mighty Linhof's to consider.

    Should be here Thursday so I'm looking forward to some film fun at the weekend!
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 15th August 2012 at 20:35.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Just read the entire post...interestingly when I got past the part of certain people getting beaten with sticks I started to think how the conversation could be graphed! It starts with the obvious mines better than yours and winds up with scientific dreams. I personally get the most out of the posts that describe how it feels and what limitations there are to capturing images with this camera/ lens for a certain project because of how a camera or lens works.

    Like the AF hunts and kills me when I'm shooting blabla...this and other limitations are much more important to me than the image. I want to here about how the equipment preformed as a tool and to what limits.

    So in the past several pages I only read about the ease of the sy6 and the 800e with a lot of buttons. I guess I'm trying to say if the OP would have said my Sy6 is the best for being out at dawn shooting....because or it's the worst for shooting indoors because every time you have to...then we I could learn what camera really does what in certain situations and know from experience shooters what does or doesn't work for me and why.

    Sorry not to offend anyone but I'm more into the tools for the right job at this point because the images are pretty close in print in a magazine these days.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    There is a difference between a sharp cut and a skilled cut. I find it interesting how long larger formats were used by professional and advanced amateurs without the technology put into the small formats. Do we rely on the technology or our skills to make images? Personally, the photographers that inspired me were able to use very unsophisticated cameras to get amazing results. I learnt the reason I was or was not successful was not because of the tool.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    sort of ... however, a massive increase in pixels designed strictly to be used with binning seems plausible. Say a 200 mp camera with a sensor designed to use 4 sensels per output pixel (all handled at the chip level) , RGB and density instead of current RGGB - resolution wise it's a 50mp camera but with less noise better dynamic range no aliasing/moire from demosaicing ...
    I've been having the exact same thought. Any word of manufacturers trying this approach? If you look at the pixel sizes of a lot of compact cameras, this is practically how they're working already (although no binning goes on ... you end up with a surplus of soft, fairly noisy pixels... up to the photographer to downres to a nice quality 4mp or so file).

    This same size pixel on a larger sensor could be used just like you say. The only stretch might be processing resources.

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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    I've been having the exact same thought. Any word of manufacturers trying this approach? If you look at the pixel sizes of a lot of compact cameras, this is practically how they're working already (although no binning goes on ... you end up with a surplus of soft, fairly noisy pixels... up to the photographer to downres to a nice quality 4mp or so file).

    This same size pixel on a larger sensor could be used just like you say. The only stretch might be processing resources.
    See also Phase One IQ and P+ Sensor+ technology.
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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    See also Phase One IQ and P+ Sensor+ technology.
    Sure, but this is a somewhat different implementation of the same idea. We're talking about a sensor whose base mode of operation is to have photosites that are smaller than effective resolution of the lens, and on camera processing that bins a sqare of four bayer sites to create a single rgb pixel, probably at a very high bit depth.

    The result could be something like a 56 megapixel full frame camera that has 224 2-micron photosites, or the equivalent in a larger format.

    Here's a chart illustrating snr benefits of binning in microscopy. I don't know how to do the math needed to estimate the dynamic range improvements, but they should be substantial.


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    Re: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    And your I Q 140 still is better than the D800 trust me been there done that test. Retire tomorrow my 2 kits would be a tech cam , 4 lenses and a M9 kit with 4 lenses. To me that would be my retirement package. Not sure who the hell is giving it to me, guess I still have to work for it. Lol
    I think your two kit idea is spot on - but I would probably go for a 60 megapixel back...can't make up my mind which 60 though..

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