Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority?

[ptomsu]

Warning - I'm in a grumpy mood....

It's getting very tiring reading about how this camera is better than that one and the entire world as we know it is just about done.

This happens each and every time any camera manufacture releases its' newest and best camera. Saw it when the 1Ds was introduced, then again with the 1DsII and yet again with the 1DsIII (I use Canon as I really don't have any experience with Nikon). How 'bout when Phase introduced the P65+? People went nuts over it saying how medium format would never be the same and how the P65 was such a game changer. That is until the IQ backs were introduced.

Reminds me of the early days of personal computers where a new improved model was being introduced at a rate of several every 6-months.

Then there's the small sensor and 4/3's cameras.

Why do we have this compulsion to comparing different camera sensors? A 35mm camera is just that, 35mm. A full size 35mm sensor is 36x24mm. A medium format sensor is 53.9x40.4mm. At this point I really couldn't care less that there's a 35mm camera that offers 36 megapixels because no matter how you slice it, it remains what it is - 35mm and I choose not to use 35mm.

I'm not trying to bash 35mm. I'm very pleased to see that Nikon has developed a 36 megapixel 35mm camera and hope Canon will soon follow. I'm of the opinion that what Nikon has done is change the face of 35mm photography as we now know it; however, no matter the megapixel the sensor remains that of 35mm. It's very close to saying you can make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

Again the grumpy warning...

If you feel that a high megapixel 35mm camera is "the end of medium format superiority" then you're misinformed as to what medium format brings to the table. This is close to saying medium format is superior to large format. While medium format has closed the gap that gap like the one between 35mm and medium format will always be there.

Still grumpy but at least I have it off my chest.

Don

Don,

just instead of writing all this - give it a try, get a D800E and try it with some good glass. You will be pleased

Peter

 

[Shashin]

I am more often that not mistaken for a surveyor.

Especially when you wear your yellow hardhat.

It was worse when people saw my light meter and wanted to know why I still use such an old cell phone.

 

[Don Libby]

Don,

just instead of writing all this - give it a try, get a D800E and try it with some good glass. You will be pleased

Peter

Thanks for the invite Peter. I have no doubt that it is a really good 35mm camera. But that's it - it's 35mm. I need the larger sensor of medium format for what I do and print. I could see trying it if the sensors were the same but they aren't.

As always this is my opinion and 2¢ worth.

Don

 

[Don Libby]

... I am more often that not mistaken for a surveyor.

I remember when I first began using the WRS - I actually had people walk up and ask what video camera I was using.....

 

[ptomsu]

Thanks for the invite Peter. I have no doubt that it is a really good 35mm camera. But that's it - it's 35mm. I need the larger sensor of medium format for what I do and print. I could see trying it if the sensors were the same but they aren't.

As always this is my opinion and 2¢ worth.

Don

Don,

I know what you feel and what you mean!

Owning and extensively using the D800E myself, I am very well aware of the differences to my Hasselblad H3D39 and there are for sure more differences to a Tech Cam with an even higher resolution sensor.

Having said that - I would not nearly have made all the images with my Hasselblad, let alone a Tech Cam, which I have made in the last 2 months with the D800E.

And sure you need to treat the files appropriately, so OOC RAW of JPEG will not do in most cases. But there is also not too much difference to MFD, also there files need treatment.

But not even trying the D800E really leaves you out somewhere, where you think 35mm FF DSLR photography is - but it is no longer there - time has changed. So why not just try it, it is not much money compared to a Tech Cam with IQxyz and some lenses. What can be wrong? Just use it as your new P&S. You will not believe where this new technology will bring you ....

Just my 2c

Peter

 

[GrahamWelland]

....

And sure you need to treat the files appropriately, so OOC RAW of JPEG will not do in most cases. But there is also not too much difference to MFD, also there files need treatment.

But not even trying the D800E really leaves you out somewhere, where you think 35mm FF DSLR photography is - but it is no longer there - time has changed. So why not just try it, it is not much money compared to a Tech Cam with IQxyz and some lenses. What can be wrong? Just use it as your new P&S. You will not believe where this new technology will bring you ....

Just my 2c

Peter

Peter,

I've been shooting Nikon digital since the D1 all the way through to FF D3/D3s/D3x and now D800 myself. Trust me, nothing has changed. Sure things have gotten better but it's still 3:2 aspect ratio, form factor and still somewhat digital look compared to MF (IMHO).

It's just different.

My $0.01 ... because I know I sound like a broken record. :grin:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Hey you exceeded your .2 cents your now up to .3 cents. ROTFLMAO

 

[paulraphael]

I think the big DSLR impresses folks more, especially with a big lens. When I have an unusual camera type, I am more often that not mistaken for a surveyor.

Me too, and I took advantage. I still use the wood tripod, and I still keep an orange reflective vest in my camera bag. This lets me pull over on roads where I'm not supposed to, trespass just about anywhere, and sometimes even set up in the middle of the street.

A related issue: people know that a big dslr with a big lens is expensive. A large format camera makes you look a bit like a nut who rides a victorian high-wheel bicycle, but no one suspects you have anything worth stealing.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Not so sure of that my Tech cam got a lot of attention. Yes I look crazy and only reason no one will mug me. You dont mug crazy people, its just not socially polite. LOL

 

[GrahamWelland]

Me too, and I took advantage. I still use the wood tripod, and I still keep an orange reflective vest in my camera bag. This lets me pull over on roads where I'm not supposed to, trespass just about anywhere, and sometimes even set up in the middle of the street.

:thumbs: high-vis - me too. It also helps with being seen on the side of the road out in the boonies where the bozos in their trucks race around and when the brain dead weekend drivers are out. At least they see you before you jump out of the way.

I must admit I have thought about adding an orange hard hat to my gear too for those days when I go exploring more industrial sites.

 

[Shashin]

And then there are those hunting accidents--I am sorry officer, it looked like a giant squirrel using a tripod mounted camera and a hardhat...

 

[Anders_HK]

A related issue: people know that a big dslr with a big lens is expensive. A large format camera makes you look a bit like a nut who rides a victorian high-wheel bicycle, but no one suspects you have anything worth stealing.

Makes me think when the other year I was set up on Peoples Square in Shanghai with my wooden Shen Hau 4x5 and custom made sliding adapter for my Leaf back. This young Chinese gentleman with a DSLR round his neck walked up to me and asked politely and serious "Is that a camera?". :deadhorse:

Why try DSLR again when not like? With a pro zoom, weight is about same as MFD, then why not rather complement with other lighter weight camera?

 

[torger]

I think that the D800 is a game-changer for those that had MF solely for the image quality but hated the large slow inflexible and super-expensive cameras. The "good enough" level has been reached for many. It seems similar to the situation when the P45 came out and 4x5" users started to go digital because it was now good enough, and developing film and drum scanning weren't really all that fun. Also that time it was not about "ending 4x5 superiority", but that digital had become good enough to be an alternative which happened to be so very much more flexible.

As a tech camera user I just enjoy working with it, and my shooting style requires movements. And I don't think Nikon's tilt-shift options are good enough. But say in 2014 when/if Canon has updated their 45 and 90mm TS-E with more flexible movements (like the new 17 and 24) and new optics, and have a 40 megapixel body. Hmm... I do find my tech camera kind of charming, but there is a limit to how much flexibility and money I can sacrifice if attractive alternatives would appear.

It shall be interesting to see where the MF market is in five years. I don't dare to guess.

 

[Don Libby]

I've left 35mm format twice now. The first was when I made the switch to medium format. I was shooting with a 1DsII and as good as those files are I knew I was missing "something". The 1DsII was replaced with a P30+ which was replaced with a P45+ after I switched to the WRS. I tried 35mm again for about 18-months using a Leica M9 as my "walk around" camera. As close as I found the M9 I was still left wanting. Wanting a larger sensor. The M9 is now gone having been replaced with a DF and I can't begin to describe how happy I am with the WRS/DF combo.

Sandy, my wife and shooting partner shoots with a 1DsIII and loves it. Yet we both can tell the difference in files shot between the 2-systems.

I'm not trying to knock 35mm as I do like it; I just like medium format more and choose to use it. In the end it's up to the individual photographer to exercise their individualism in choosing what best suits them and their art. What gets me grumpy is when people attempt to compare two totally different systems and try to make them both fit. We're talking about two totally separate sensor sizes and types; they aren't equal and won't be.

Nikon appears to have hit it out the ballpark with their D800 series and should be congratulated. However it still isn't medium format a format I choose to continue to use.

I'm probably down to 1¢ here so I go find a dark corner....

Don


One final thought. I am in no way suggesting people shouldn't try the D800 if they want to update their 35mm systems. My only thought is I don't feel you can expect the same level of photography (files, color, tones, etc.) if you compare two totally different systems (sensor size or type).

Going back to my dark corner now

 

[Guy Mancuso]

.005 but we still love ya. Lol

 

[Don Libby]

.005 but we still love ya. Lol

Wait! Do I need to start bumming for change now? :chug:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

You all need to actually start sending ME the .02 hell by year end I could buy a freaking lens. LOL

 

[RodK]

Many of the great Masters of Photography in the 20th century, used primarily 2 cameras.
Walker Evans for instance, used the Leica and an 8x10. Weston used 8x10 and speed graphics and even 645. So, different tools for different uses.
As photographers age, they do go lighter. Ansel went down to Hassleblad. Some of the technical cameras are lighter than the whole MFd camera with lens as well. And the lenses can be incredible. So they are another choice.
You decide about weight, size, quality, and utility for what kind of photography you wish to do. Just make images and enjoy...

 

[Don Libby]

The older I get the simpler I like life to be. :salute:

 

[GrahamWelland]

You decide about weight, size, quality, and utility for what kind of photography you wish to do. Just make images and enjoy...

Confession time: I'm off on a couple of photography trips in September and I'll be bringing along both my D800 & Alpa/Phase One IQ systems. The IQ sucks at night work and the Alpa is a joy for landscapes. Now if I could mount the D800 on the Alpa, or the IQ could shoot night shots worth a damn, I'd be super happy with the best of both worlds I suppose but alas ... :facesmack:

Horses for courses. Yin & Yang. Chalk & Cheese and no doubt several other over used metaphors apply.