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Can't decide Arca Swiss D4 or Cube,

MedShooter

New member
I'm really torn between the Arca Swiss D4 or the cube. I know the D4s' aren't readily available at the moment and yes I have read the cube vs. d4 thread here but still having a hard time deciding.
I'd be using the head for studio macro product photography using a D800e with an 85mm lens. Working distance about 2 feet.
I'd love to hear from those who've used or have experience with both of these pieces of equipment.
 

gazwas

Active member
Not really qualified to answer as I use a Manfrotto 405 :)eek:) but I keep looking at the same two heads to use with my Arca cameras and I'm pretty sure when I do place my order it will be for a D4.

If all the movements were all around the centre point of the head on the Cube it would be a one horse race. As they are not, especially when vertical shooting, I don't see any advantage of the C1 over the D4. It's not like the D4 is a cheap head and by buying it over a C1 means you have an inferior product. However, if your intention is owning the BEST (nothing wrong with that), then it's the C1 all the way to the finishing line.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Saying which one is better, the Cube or D4 is not as easy as it sounds. I should know as I currently have both. Actually I have all three - the Cube, D4 and D4M.

To begin with, I ordered the D4 not as a replacement for the Cube rather than an alternative for when I'm hiking. The D4M came around only after I screwed up replacing the D4 head and knowing I could get the D4M faster than I could get the needed replacement part. So the D4M was a donor head.

I've used the Cube for several years and will continue to. The only drawback I have with the Cube is as a whole (tripod and head) while super sturdy, it weighs slightly more than 10 pounds. And since I'm getting older not younger the weight is beging to be too much for longer hikes.

The D4 is attached to a lightweight tripod and in total has saved me 5 pounds which is significant when hiking out beyond a mile or more.

From what I've seen so far, the Cube offers slightly better control of movements at the cost of weighing more. The D4 (now that I have it fixed) weighs less and has good movements. The movements of the D4 versus the Cube appear to be different but only slightly. The controls are also slightly different. All this is just a personal observation.

If pushed, I'd say the Cube is "slightly" better than the D4. However I've been using the Cube for many years and know it well. The D4 has only been with me for less than a month. I will say that both are great heads.

As for the D4M. I tried it out shortly before I operated on it. For a none geared head it works great. It isn't a ballhead so you can't expect the quick movements of one. But even without the geared portion you can still get precise movements like it's cousin the D4 - only slower.

The D4M is being sent to Precision Camera and is awaiting Arca to return from vacation.

My personal choice? The Cube is number 1. The D4 is so close to being number 1 that I have to change and say the Cube is 1a and the D4 is 1b. If you don't need geared movements nor a ballhead then the D4M is choice #2.

This is being written as I wake up and through my first cup of coffee.


Don
 
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kdphotography

Well-known member
....I should know as I currently have both. Actually I have all three - the Cube, D4 and D4M.
....
Don
And appropriately enough, noted in Dante's Inferno.... :ROTFL:

I've got the Cube on my big Gitzo, but the D4 on the buy-list for my lightweight tripod, like Don.

But seriously, Don, I think you better sell that D4m before Sandy finds out... :D

ken
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
But seriously, Don, I think you better sell that D4m before Sandy finds out... :D

ken
Actually it was Sandy who suggested the D4M due to the time constraints. We'll decide if we keep it or sell it after we get it back....

Okay woke up a little more and decided to do a test I had been putting off. I mounted the WRS on my Feisol tripod (D4) and did a combination of things. Taking it outside and on uneven ground to see how easy/fast the process of setting up was (leveling and getting ready for the first shot). Found the process just as fast and almost as easy as it I were using the Cube. Then I did some shots using different hoods which was the real reason the of test.

The one thing I noticed. There's a slight amount of flex on the D4. As you look at the D4 you'll see it's basically two components. The base which attaches to the tripod and the arm which offers the movements. I felt an ever so slight amount a movement or flex in that arm as I was making adjustments to the camera. Not enough (I think) to throw anything off - just noticeable. I don't have enough time to have it sent in so I'll just keep an eye on it.

Don
 

MedShooter

New member
Thanks for the reply Don.
You don't feel like the movements on the D4 are more comfortable or faster?
I'm going to be using the head for just studio work basically for macro work. You can tell the cube is built like a tank but it's not like I'm going to be putting a medium format on it. If the D4 can give me the same precision I think I'd be really interested in it.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I'm a landscape shooter and my studio is normally on the side of a cliff or in a meadow. I keep forgetting at times that normal people shoot inside their studios....

Given the fact that you'll be inside a studio and not faced with fast moving clouds or storms that sometimes make you work much faster than you'd like - I'd agree with you that the D4 is the choice. Notice I didn't say anything about camera as I'm uncertain of the weight restrictions are for the D4 family. My WRS weighs a little less than my DF and the DF weights almost the same as Sandy's 1DsIII.

Don

I had posted the D4M for sale (since removed) and shot the images using my DF on the D4.
 

MedShooter

New member
So, you'd say no difference as far as precision goes? It would be nice if I could set up the same shot every time on the head with the exact angle used before to keep the photos consistent.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
The markings and controls are different between the two. While I feel the Cube has more precise settings it also might be from years of use with it. I've got to say that if you are looking for repeatability; going back to "that exact same spot" over and over again I'd opt for the Cube. Having just read what I said I'd also temper that with the idea that with practice you might do the same with the D4. I know not much help...

Where are you located? It might be a benefit to visit someplace that has both on hand. Ken and I are planning on another Pigs in a Blanket (not your normal workshop - shouldn't even be considered a workshop) next year and I'll have both with me.

Don
 

MedShooter

New member
I'm from Southern California.
Another thing just came to mind. Since I'm working with pretty short distances ie. 1-3' the cube pretty much keeps the camera the same distance from the subject because its center of gravity doesn't move. The D4 on the other hand will noticeably extend or decrease the distance between camera and subject. Maybe a slight inconvenience to re-focus etc. the subject with the D4 as opposed to the cube. Makes sense?
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Okay tripod porn coming up.

I figured I'd set the two up and show the differences between the two. Turns out other than slight physical and weight differences they're basically the same. The images posted here show the heads level the extended. I think I got in close enough to show the differences in the markings.

Naked tripods coming up......

Using your mouse, however over the individual image and read the file name.

okay you need to open the image file to get the name and description.
 
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gazwas

Active member
I'm from Southern California.
Another thing just came to mind. Since I'm working with pretty short distances ie. 1-3' the cube pretty much keeps the camera the same distance from the subject because its center of gravity doesn't move. The D4 on the other hand will noticeably extend or decrease the distance between camera and subject. Maybe a slight inconvenience to re-focus etc. the subject with the D4 as opposed to the cube. Makes sense?
I don't think this is the case at all and that was my point above hence why I'd choose the D4. The Cube does pivot in an arc but this arc is not in the central nodal point of the head and goes way off when past a particular point or when shooting vertical.

Don might be able to confirm or deny this though.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
"Twins", the last image above you'll notice the Cube is slightly off balance. This is because I had to shorten the tripod down to the other and I didn't get the legs straight or level and was in a general rush to get the last image shot due to some severe thunder and lightning behind me.

Don
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I've given this question some thought since first reading it this morning. When push comes to shove and I was left with only one choice - I'd choice the Cube. Thankfully I don't have to make the choice. And when it comes down to it the Cube will remain my primary solution and the D4 will be for those days when I've got 20 pounds of camera gear and 16 pounds of water with a 3 plus mile (one-way) hike ahead of me.

But this is strictly from a landscape photographer point of view. :D

Don
 

MedShooter

New member
I don't think this is the case at all and that was my point above hence why I'd choose the D4. The Cube does pivot in an arc but this arc is not in the central nodal point of the head and goes way off when past a particular point or when shooting vertical.

Don might be able to confirm or deny this though.
Don could you confirm this? Does the cube, when the camera pivots, change the working distance between subject and camera?
For macro shots I think this might be important.
 

MedShooter

New member
I just realized something...

The cube only has a swing of 30°. To get past that I'd need to flip the camera using the flip mechanism... With the D4, I can go 30° or 50° without having to fiddle with the flip. With my type of shooting I'm sometimes at steeper angles to the subject.

This is ending up being a harder choice than I thought lol. I had placed an order for the Cube last night but canceled it.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Currently my answer would be based solely on theory and conjecture and I'm hesitant to share.

Let me work this out loud so to speak...

I haven't had to worry about the nodal point of my lenses for years since I shoot primarily with a tech camera and flat stitch. Moving the lens off center of the subject increases or decreases the distance from the center of the subject. This is irregardless of the nodal point of the lens.

The other thing I'm thinking of is the placement of the camera/lens in relationship to the Cube/D4. If you mount the camera directly on top then you don't have any chance of fixing the lens nodal point in relation to the head. That's why I used a Novoflex focusing rack. Attach the rack to the head then the camera to the rack and depending on the lens, move the camera forward or rearward until you reach the nodal point.

All this helps a great deal when shooting panoramic landscapes as your focus point is much further away. And that is why I'm having a problem in dealing with your question on macro shots.

I'm currently doing some macro however once I have it set up I don't have a problem. My workflow might be different however; level, frame, focus, capture. I'm using a Mamiya 120 with DF and IQ160 with the Novoflex and generally shoot within 18". Once I have the shot set I rarely change and when I do I always double check the settings.

I'm been rereading the posts as I write this. #10 You state that the Cube keeps the same distance due to no change in the center of gravity while the D4 changes. Look again at the images I posted with both extended all the way out. They appear to be virtually the same.

I've got commitments today and tomorrow so I can't do anything else until Tuesday. You and Gareth both have me thinking about this and I want to see if this is true or myth. So - give me an example of something you'd like to see done using macro and I'll see if I can do it later this week and report back. Fair?

Don

I just reread #12 where Gareth mentions the pivot of the Cube. Maybe I'm tired (been up since o'dark hundred) however once I level the camera on the Cube it stays level as I swing the camera around. In fact I'll normally turn the camera 360 degrees as a way the double check my level.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I just realized something...

The cube only has a swing of 30°. To get past that I'd need to flip the camera using the flip mechanism... With the D4, I can go 30° or 50° without having to fiddle with the flip. With my type of shooting I'm sometimes at steeper angles to the subject.

This is ending up being a harder choice than I thought lol. I had placed an order for the Cube last night but canceled it.
Both will tilt out to 90 degrees and in-between as well. The flip mechanism of the Cube is lockable to you can go in-between without any problem.

In the end both are excellent choices.

Don
 

MedShooter

New member
Thanks Don,

I was just thinking that since the Camera is basically inside of the arc that the distance to subject doesn't change much.

For example and correct me if I'm wrong, on the Cube, moving from 10° to 30° angle to the subject still keeps the camera the same distance?
On the D4, the camera is much higher from the center of gravity which would be ball base of the head. Moving from 10° to 30° from subject, you would need to tilt the camera in and noticeable cut the distance between the camera and subject. When you're working 18" away from the subject, the shot becomes completely different.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
As you tilt the Cube you will definitely get **some** change in subject distance unless you are lucky enough for the nodal point of your lens to be in the exact projected pivot point of the Cube. The angle of the rack on the axis of the cube will be based on an imaginary point above the top of the head which may or may not match your camera body/lens. It won't be a large deviation in my experience but it will be there.

Also, since I'm also a landscape photographer like Don, I suspect that I've only used the extended tilt to 90 degrees under desperation maybe half a dozen times. If I were tilting beyond the range of the main head then I'd certainly be more interested in the ease of use of the D4. The extended tilt of the cube really pushes the camera well off of the center of the head/tripod and when used with a heavy camera & lens always bothered me due to the leveraged moment off the weight. Also you MUST unlock/lock the slider each time you do an extended tilt.
 
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